00:00:02.220 - 00:00:26.090

Well, not so you're uncomfortable, but um maybe with your other hands. Um, let's start with your name, your birth date, and your place of birth. OK, Alan Friedman, January 7th, 1942, and born in Washington, DC and uh siblings? One sister, slightly younger and her name Marjorie

00:00:26.090 - 00:00:45.770

and your parents' names? Morton Friedman and Bertha Korn Friedman. Uh, and where did they come from? Born, um, I guess my father was born in Harlem in New York and my mother. Either either Brooklyn or Rockaway, I'm not, I can't remember which, she grew up in

00:00:45.770 - 00:01:07.720

Rockaway. And what do you know about your parents' lives? The very early lives. Mostly just family stories, not a, not, you know, not a great deal, um, their families are quite different. My mother's, well, no, actually they probably weren't all that different. My father's father was

00:01:07.720 - 00:01:21.040

a many times failed businessman. He tried all kinds of things and, and nothing ever seemed to work or uh my memories it was all dealt with the clothing business. He died before I was born, so I never knew him at all. Um, and my mother's father

00:01:21.040 - 00:01:40.569

was a successful businessman and, um, ended up semi-wealthy, ran ran a cleaning office cleaning business in New York, um, so they lived in that way different kinds of lives. My mother's, you know, financial. Childhood was much more secure than my father's although my mother's parents' marriage

00:01:40.569 - 00:02:01.800

was rotten and I don't know a lot about my father's. Do you know what the early influences were on your parents? Um, they were not from their parents, um, they were not particularly left wing, um, I don't know much about it. My grandfather, who I knew,

00:02:02.349 - 00:02:27.429

um, was. Typical Republican businessman type, um, my guess is my grandfather who I didn't know was not because he wasn't successful. So, um, when did your parents until college, um and did they both get to college easily that is financially or no, my mother, my mother

00:02:27.429 - 00:02:42.429

got to college financially. She went to Barnard and my father. I went to night school. I guess I certainly went his law school, he went to night school, he was working in a bank then. Uh, and it was during the Depression and his, you know, his

00:02:42.429 - 00:02:56.919

family did not have much money at all. It was no, it was pre I guess it was, yeah, it was right around Depression time. And when did your parents begin to develop their political interests or leanings? Both of them in college, um, my father before my

00:02:56.919 - 00:03:14.539

mother and, um, probably his was more, um, you know, his leanings was always stronger, um. Oh, and a lot of it came out through the legal stuff that he did. Did he? Did he join the YCL or do you know? I don't know about. I really

00:03:14.539 - 00:03:38.050

don't know a whole lot about their political life until um. Until they were in Washington. And when did they meet and marry? They, they, no, they, they met because, um, let me see if I can remember, um, OK, they met because my mother, I think because

00:03:38.050 - 00:03:54.699

my mother was interested in my father's brother and, and you know she went over there and she met my father and it's during the time they were in college and they, you know, they married. Right, right towards the end of college and both, both got government

00:03:54.699 - 00:04:10.789

jobs moved from New York to Washington DC and this would have been in the late 30s it was it was late 30s, middle to late 30s, um um you know, Roosevelt administration, they both had really minor kinds of jobs in the government. My father did editing

00:04:10.789 - 00:04:32.000

and writing for various news newspapers and she dealt with census and things like that, um. Maybe somewhat involved in WPA, uh, some, somehow it's I remember something to do with, uh, the TVA, Tennessee Valley Authority, but not a great deal, uh, and you know, really became

00:04:32.000 - 00:04:52.239

active there in terms of union organizing. For government workers. Both of them were members and leaders of um. My, no, my mother, my mother was not my father was. And um what do you know then about before you were born and um in your early childhood

00:04:52.570 - 00:05:08.880

about um his political work and what his activities were. It was, uh, it's real. He never talked about it and my, and my mother actually knows less than I thought that that she would about his, his real activities during that time. Um, his political work was

00:05:08.890 - 00:05:26.779

was really dealing with, with organizing workers in Washington, but then it was not, he was not there all that long before he got fired. um, so what, um, and that was when you were how old? When he was fired, I had to have been either just

00:05:27.149 - 00:05:50.260

probably just. 21 or 2. I certainly don't remember it. What have you been told about that period? Um, In terms of uh the loss what the loss of work meant for the family, um, OK, well, yeah, what I was told as a child was that he

00:05:50.260 - 00:06:06.570

was fired, was not, was not really he was fired for political activity, that he was fired because of his friends and because his friends were were not white. Uh-huh. Um, and, so they at that point they didn't talk about that at all, you know, although his

00:06:06.570 - 00:06:25.209

case, his case was pretty well known at the time because his was the first firing to go to to the to the Supreme Court who refused to hear his case, um, and his lawyer was Abe Fortas, and he was fired on what ground for belonging and

00:06:25.209 - 00:06:41.059

for being a communist and for pretty much basically political grounds and. And who he, who he belonged to, he was a party member. They both were then. And who were their friends at that time were the exclusively political friends, um, their friends were and I didn't,

00:06:41.140 - 00:06:55.790

I don't know who they were. They were exclusively political friends. I don't think, you know, I think that my impression was that their social life really revolved around their political life. Um, and since I wasn't there I don't remember it at all and I said that

00:06:55.790 - 00:07:07.390

they never really talked about that stuff with us, with either one of us, my sister and myself at all, and the only bits I know about it because I got my mother to sit down and be taped a couple of years ago and her memory gets

00:07:07.390 - 00:07:25.390

real foggy too. So, um, what did your, uh, your father's trial then went on through what corresponded to what years of your life? From birth probably to about 3, right, right in around time all that took quite a while, uh, and he was not working for

00:07:25.390 - 00:07:47.309

a while, but then, and then when he, and then we moved to New York. And I had to have been 4. And do you have any memories of what the mood in the family was tenor at that point? Absolutely none. No, I don't, uh, yeah, for

00:07:47.309 - 00:08:04.910

a while so. OK, it's, um, we were talking about, uh, your move from Washington to New York, um, after your father lost his job and also how long the trial took and what that was like, if you remember anything about, I don't remember anything about the

00:08:04.910 - 00:08:19.380

trial. I have some transcripts from it that I've never really even looked at. Um, OK, sure, um, no, the things I remember what I was told is that, is that for the first bunch of time until we found a house we lived with my aunt and

00:08:19.380 - 00:08:43.179

uncle who were also involved in politics, um, and I drove them crazy, um, and then we, we moved into a house near them and, and had to be about 46. Probably 1946 and at that point my father worked for, got, got a job with the UE

00:08:43.179 - 00:08:56.219

United Electrical, uh, and my mem and I do remember some of this and my memory is that he really didn't like being there because he felt that they gave him a job, not because they had anything for him to do, but because they felt sorry for

00:08:56.219 - 00:09:08.400

him or they wanted to help him out and he didn't like that at all. Um, and so then he got a job and, and, and, and although he was A lawyer and he was at that point he was really doing very little legal work and then

00:09:08.400 - 00:09:27.950

he got I guess his first lawyerly job which was with uh uh Manuel Bach uh who was the guy that defended the Rosenbergs and so he worked a bunch on that case. Um, and, well, that wouldn't have been till till much later, right, yeah, but, but

00:09:27.950 - 00:09:39.150

he was, but, but he was with block all the way through. Oh, I see. And then they got that and then they got that case, um, and you mentioned living with an aunt and uncle who are also political. Did, did your father's or your parents' political

00:09:39.150 - 00:09:56.479

work or activities, um, estrange them from their own parents at all? Not from their own parents. There was and my memories my mother with nobody. My father was estranged from one sister for a long period of time and it was a family scandal or one of

00:09:56.479 - 00:10:10.500

them, one of them, and to this day nobody knows which one stood up and announced the other one at a meeting. And um my sister and I were talking about this the other day we still don't know which one it was who denounced who was at

00:10:10.500 - 00:10:31.320

a party meeting denounce the other as being critical of the party or anti-revolutionary or whatever you denounce somebody as her his whole family was involved. My mother's family was not. Um, but, but my mother, that, that's the only estrangement uh that I know about. And then,

00:10:31.940 - 00:10:45.909

and then of all of them, uh, my father remained political the longest, both my, you know, involved in doing things the longest, um, his brother, his bro, his brother who where they stay was a scientist and really just became involved in that stuff, and they just

00:10:45.909 - 00:11:04.200

stopped doing political work, most all of them, um, so your parents. Didn't tell you about their political involvements were their political conversations did you understand do you remember. There were not political conversations. What I remember becoming aware of was certain stances, um, political stances that, you

00:11:04.200 - 00:11:22.219

know, equality and um um integration and that those things were very, very important and discussed unionism, um, capitalist bosses, um, those kind of things we talked about a lot. Um, uh, you know, I, I never felt as if they were talked about in such a way

00:11:22.219 - 00:11:35.580

it was propagandized. It's just things that came up normally in conversation or things that they talked about, talked about them because they had, because we were the only family in that area that had friends that were that were black, and people came over and um there

00:11:35.580 - 00:11:55.130

were comments occasionally from neighborhood kids. Um, and this was where in New York, this is in Bayside, which is, uh, which is in Queens in New York City. So talk a little bit about the neighborhood um where you were as a young child and um was

00:11:55.130 - 00:12:16.500

it were most of the people in the neighborhood uh it was like it was, it was a white working class neighborhood, middle middle to lower class pretty much working class neighborhood, um, very rural. For being in New York, you know, as rural as that when we

00:12:16.500 - 00:12:29.979

were in kindergarten, we walked to the dairy farm, um, with streams and things, and then as I grew up that it all got built up, so sort of in some ways it was a very idyllic place to grow up, um, you know, but you know there

00:12:29.979 - 00:12:45.429

was stuff that was that was happening between the neighbors and my parents that I was only aware of and very. Um, naive kinds of ways. How did you how did you see that or what? Oh, things like kids were told not to play with me, um,

00:12:46.359 - 00:12:59.469

and, you know, I don't think I was aware enough even to half the time you come home and you know Joey won't play with me and um that kind of stuff or? And, and you have and your parents would have to offer some explanation or I,

00:12:59.679 - 00:13:13.200

I, you know, I, I remember there were enough kids that it never really mattered and the kids who were my real good friends I just played with and there was never a problem. um I, I remember the FBI coming to the door and my mother throwing

00:13:13.200 - 00:13:35.880

them out. um, I, I apparently because because I got some records I got, I got the Freedom of Information Act records on my parents. The FBI followed me to school a bunch of times. when I was in kindergarten doing, you know, um, but um the tenor,

00:13:35.919 - 00:13:53.950

the mood in the home was relaxed. I don't, yeah, you know, I remember little things that that when tension tensions came up around incidents. Um, and things I was told that I don't remember there was one fellow who was, uh, who hid in our house for

00:13:53.950 - 00:14:05.229

a couple of weeks because he was sure that he was gonna be arrested, um, at one period when, when things were getting heavy, uh, was that when people were going underground, yeah, yeah, and I, you know, and I remember him being in our house, but, but

00:14:05.229 - 00:14:16.330

I don't remember particularly being told not to say anything or why he was in her house. He was just a guest in our house for those few weeks and he was a friend of the family that we knew anyway. Um, so you know, so that never,

00:14:16.369 - 00:14:38.049

that never really seemed abnormal. Um, I remember a lot of propaganda materials around the house, slide, not slide projectors, what are the other, the rolling things, film strip projectors with a, with wonderful, um, cartoony propaganda labor stuff on them. My sister and I used to play

00:14:38.049 - 00:14:50.500

with and look at and a couple of times they got real pissed off that we looked at them. Um, I remember a lot of pamphlets and piles which I'm sure they went and gave out at various places piled up in closets in the in the top

00:14:50.500 - 00:15:01.900

of closets. Were there meetings held at your house? There were never meetings held at our house. Um, you know, any meetings that were done were held elsewhere, and we were never informed about them, you know, and from our point of view, our parents never went out

00:15:01.900 - 00:15:15.130

a lot, but, um, you know, I mean, I, I don't remember it and my sister sort of doesn't remember it either. Um, I think I, I think, you know, by the time that we became aware of much of anything, my father's activities, the party activities had

00:15:15.130 - 00:15:29.289

really dropped off a great deal, and his activities were, were really legal. um, he did stuff with people before the McCarthy committee. He was before the committee. Then later on he did a lot of civil rights work and then later on after that he did Black

00:15:29.289 - 00:15:48.690

Panther work um. Did they explain uh what all these materials were doing in the house, um, or was that just uh. No, they didn't, they, they, I didn't ask a whole lot. I was a kid who just went out and played and was just oblivious to,

00:15:48.789 - 00:16:01.169

to, to almost everything around me, you know, except the silly little things that I was doing. They talked about him a little bit if we asked questions, but I think, you know, my thing was never to, you know, there were sort of things to play with

00:16:01.169 - 00:16:16.169

rather than really care about. Were you ever aware that your father's firing and the trial and could hold, could put your father in jeopardy in any way? No. No, the only the only time that we ever that I ever felt that that there were things that

00:16:16.169 - 00:16:31.400

were that his job or his things were in jeopardy where I, you know, I guess that during the time when he was called before the committee, uh, I, at that point I was in probably in 7th grade. Um, there were a lot of news, well, a

00:16:31.400 - 00:16:48.479

couple other things, there were a lot of newspaper articles at that at that point, and there was some talk about possibly problems happening at his office at his law office. Um, and possibly losing business because that was going on, but, but, uh, I don't think that

00:16:48.479 - 00:17:00.559

ever happened, and, you know, the family was never in a financial pinch at all. Because your father had legal skills and could make, make his own business essentially. Yeah, yeah, I mean he had, he had a he had a he had a, you know, he had

00:17:00.559 - 00:17:14.810

a he had a law firm with a partner and a couple of other people and they always did OK. And um you know the the the political work he did was never the major part of the of the firm. I see. Was your father were either

00:17:14.810 - 00:17:29.599

your parents in the leadership of the local party? Do you know? No, I do, I do, I do know that my father ran for office with the with the ALP, American Labor Party for for judge and for state senator and stuff a number of times, um,

00:17:29.609 - 00:17:48.459

further than that, I don't think so. And um, did you feel um. Uh, in school, for example, um, did you speak up on issues? Never. I never spoke up on issues until I was in college. It just wasn't, uh, you know, there may be more to

00:17:48.459 - 00:17:59.089

it than that, but my take on it is just who I was, you know, we went, you know, for example, we went to all those, um, you know, we went to the resorts that the left wing people went to the fur workers resort in those places,

00:17:59.099 - 00:18:16.829

and we went to my sister and I went to a couple of the camps that the kids went to, um, and whatever political stuff went on in those places, I was completely oblivious to. Hm And you know, I mean, I, you know, I know that for

00:18:16.829 - 00:18:37.689

example, in the, in the, in the resort, you know, where the the adults and kids resort that there were some, there were always there were evening. Entertainments which, which very often included political skits and I never got it uh and uh and I'm not sure if

00:18:37.689 - 00:18:53.459

my sister did either, and you know she was, she's in general much more aware of things at a younger age than I was, um, you know, and, and my biggest memory of that one is of of those resorts is, um. Is Pete Seeger coming to sing

00:18:53.790 - 00:19:13.140

and he sang Talking Blues, talking the Union Blues, Talking Union, and at one point, he, you know, which was so scandalous at that point using the word bastard. And the political content didn't matter, but it's when he used that word, people in the audience started yelling

00:19:13.140 - 00:19:30.890

as if to cover the word up, was my impression. And so that was my memory of that whole thing. You missed the revolution. Um, were your parents in agreement on issues as far as I can tell, they were in agreement on political issues. And when did

00:19:30.890 - 00:19:47.239

your did your affirmatively leave the party? No, it just sort of faded away, I think as far as I know, um, you know, um. Uh, you know, I think when everybody else, when, you know, when sort of Stalin happened and a lot of that went on,

00:19:47.489 - 00:19:59.050

I think all of them sort of faded away, but I don't, he never, as far as I know, never really left over an issue, you know, and I never, I, I actually never had a chance to talk to him about all of this stuff. uh, he

00:19:59.050 - 00:20:16.400

died before I was, you know, I would have felt able to talk to him about it in this way, so it all comes from my mother. you remember about the Rosenberg I remember. So a lot of these memories fade in and out from one to the

00:20:16.400 - 00:20:33.630

other. I, I remember, um, I remember marching around the White House, um, and I remember, you know, taking a train, taking train down to Washington to do demonstrations for the Rose, you know, uh, um, I, I, I, I remember my father bringing stuff about the trial

00:20:33.959 - 00:20:49.709

home to the house. You know, and then, but, but my only interest in it was that a lot of the mail came from other countries, so I got the stamps which I still have some of the envelopes, um, I remember, um, May Day demonstrations in New

00:20:49.709 - 00:21:00.189

York and I think this is different though. I don't think this is, you know, I remember getting red paint thrown on me, um, and, or no, actually it was balloon with red paint in it thrown at thrown at us, and my sister and I both remember

00:21:00.189 - 00:21:16.390

that, but that was, I think that was close to the same period. Uh, did you consider their political activities, your father's work an intrusion on the family life in any way, or is this what he did? It was what he did and you know. You know,

00:21:16.709 - 00:21:30.510

though, when I was a teenager and started thinking about politics and, um, you know, swung to the right for a few years, just, just verbal just verbally, you know, I, I never know whether it was because that's what everybody did to you go against your go

00:21:30.510 - 00:21:45.569

against your parents or whether um you know I did it in, you know, in some way because of things that I felt that, uh, but I don't think so. I mean, you know, we, we always, you know. We always did family things, you know, uh, we

00:21:45.569 - 00:21:57.819

always went on vacations together and my father did always make time to do stuff with his kids, so I didn't feel an intrusion. So he worked hard, but it was his job. It was right and I've talked to other people who, you know, parents out every

00:21:57.819 - 00:22:14.439

night and you know the kids screaming, Mommy, this was really felt it was not like that, you know, I think, you know, you know, so again, you know. I do remember I do remember one thing. I just, I, I, I, I remember, um. Once or twice

00:22:14.439 - 00:22:30.520

very much resenting a babysitter being there. I I have no idea how old it was, but it was in, it was in the New York house, uh, you know, I remember, um, standing in my bed and hitting the babysitter with a belt so but it's, but

00:22:30.520 - 00:22:44.890

it's not something I remember a lot, uh, so you know, I don't think so. Um, as you look back, would, do you think your parents, um, politics influenced their role as parents, their roles as parents in any way? Yeah, yeah, I think, I think it did.

00:22:44.969 - 00:23:00.680

I think, I think that they parenting with other people. A lot, um, who are who are political allies of them and I think they and and I think that they parented a lot out of that discussions and I think a lot of people, I mean, you

00:23:00.680 - 00:23:19.260

know, most parents didn't do that at all then my my feeling is that they just did that more than other people and were probably influenced by the people around them. Been visible or you might it's a really general feeling. I'd have to think about it a

00:23:19.260 - 00:23:33.699

lot more cleanly to, you know, to know issues where you know what actually happened. Other people have said that they think their parents treated them with a kind of respect that respect for their ideas, respect for their participation that they didn't see in other families that

00:23:33.699 - 00:23:49.469

they attribute to their parents' belief. And you know, collective action, for example, um, does that. No, actually in some senses my parents were the opposite. Well, not more, no, they weren't it wasn't that they were authoritarian is that they always they I I worried them a

00:23:49.469 - 00:24:02.030

lot all the way through, um, I, I think until until probably until I became a teacher because they always because I because I did a lot of things. And I, I, you know, I, I travel a lot and I ran around a lot and I did

00:24:02.030 - 00:24:20.329

drugs and exhaustion and I think that they were somewhat frightened that I was never going to. Settle down or do whatever um. Did you ever feel that um you wanted your parents to be, that your parents were too unlike everybody else that you. Sure, yeah, I

00:24:20.329 - 00:24:38.699

mean, uh, you know, those are mostly, mostly times as as, you know, I think as a young kid. Um, you know, I, I, I, I do remember that, and, and I, and see, I don't, I don't know if this has much to do with politics, although

00:24:38.699 - 00:24:53.609

it may, um, that my mom didn't want like a lot of kids over the house whether that had anything to do with politics or not. So therefore I want, you know, in that way to, to be to do that, to be more housewifely, more motherly, um,

00:24:53.619 - 00:25:11.010

when she was doing other things. Um, did you feel that your family was part of a larger political community? You mentioned the camps and the resorts. Was it, uh, uh, in the sense of it being a, a defined community that that was your social life and

00:25:11.010 - 00:25:27.869

those were the people that, um, you were friendly with? It's, that's a hard one. I'm not sure. Um, yeah, I want to say yes, but uh. But I never felt part of that community. I think, see, OK, I think that's the, the, the difference is that

00:25:27.869 - 00:25:42.020

they did, but I don't think I did, and I think, you know, part of it is my own oblivion about stuff, um, and sort of just hanging with the kids on the corner. So the children of their political friends, for example, were not your close. No,

00:25:42.060 - 00:25:59.420

because the only time that that their children of their political friends were friends of ours were during summers, uh, which not not only was resorts but then a bunch of them together, um, got, you know, got cabins in one cabin colony in upper New York state

00:25:59.420 - 00:26:16.829

so every summer for years and years we saw these same kids and they were our friends but just during the summer. And because they all lived. You know, you didn't travel around quite the same way. Um, were you aware of the need for secrecy or discretion

00:26:16.829 - 00:26:30.280

about your parents' views and politics? No, and again, I think that's what was my own naivete, um, you know, I'm sure that they would feel that there was a much, much more of a need for during that period of time of secrecy than I would have

00:26:30.280 - 00:26:51.040

even thought about. You mentioned, you know, moving to the right and not being sure whether that's sort of classic adolescence, um, did it sound as though that was a fairly temporary aberration, and did you have, at what point did you, well, I'm jumping in, what do

00:26:51.040 - 00:27:11.520

you think your parents' expectations were for you as far as your political beliefs, um, your educational attainment, the kind of. Settling down they wanted to see you know their expectations of every child is that they go to college, um, their expectations as far as my political

00:27:11.520 - 00:27:26.979

beliefs. I, I think they really did expect our, our political beliefs to be similar to theirs. Uh, I think that was a pretty high expectation, um, because when I would argue other things my father would get very, very upset, you know, you know, again, is that,

00:27:27.140 - 00:27:43.194

is that upset because your kid is challenging you or is it, is, yeah, so, but I think. You know, I think he was really was worried that I was shifting in that direction. So, so I think those expectations were high, um, expectations of what we would

00:27:43.194 - 00:27:58.714

do as adults, there were none ever, and it was you, you, you know, and I, and I do believe that they did believe, um, that you'll find something that's good and you'll settle down and do it, but they did want everybody to settle down, um, were

00:27:58.714 - 00:28:16.819

your parents, um. Um, It sounds as though given, given the circumstances, given their work, given their interest and involvement, it really was a fairly normal life. I think it was created for the family. Um, do you think your father, um, it sounds as though he was,

00:28:16.989 - 00:28:29.719

um, both fulfilled in his work and um you know his political involvement was important to him. He was not, he was not a bitter person or a disappointed person. No, I don't think he was. I think he was pretty satisfied with the work that he had

00:28:29.719 - 00:28:51.400

done, uh. Um, when, when you left home, uh, you said you became politically active in college. Um, is that it was, it was, it was not until then that actually probably after college or right at the end of college with Vietnam that's when I became politically

00:28:51.400 - 00:29:03.670

active at all, and I was, I was never particularly politically active, you know, I was, I was just a body at lots and lots of demonstrations. Um, when your father left the party or your parents left the party, did they join any other organizations? No, but

00:29:03.670 - 00:29:23.060

they, but they remained active doing things and, and, um, you know, always discussing things with their friends and always, I mean they're always, you know, they always thought politically and my mother still does. Um, and just, you know, and always from my point of view and

00:29:23.060 - 00:29:37.920

always sort of committed in some senses to exactly the same ideals. Never or not, the fact that they didn't mean that they recanted on progressive views, not at all. Would you, I'm gonna turn the tables.