00:00:11.560 - 00:00:26.270

Take a quickie course. I mean, if I had had any sense, I would have taken photographs of some of that, you know, working class graffiti, but I have a lot of it in my mind. At any rate, uh, I worked at my trade. I was also,

00:00:26.360 - 00:00:45.810

I was a good union man. I was sec when I was quite young, I was secretary of my local for a short time that was local 1149. If you want the legal name, shipwrights, comma, joiners, J O I N E R S, comma, and boat builders.

00:00:46.690 - 00:01:07.720

We had other jurisdictions, but that was fine. Oh yes, it's still in existence. It's one of the oldest locals in the Bay Area, yeah, so I was a young secretary of that local, then I went into the navy. Anderson Jar. Uh, well, in Ellen on the

00:01:07.720 - 00:01:25.170

estuary I worked at Moore Dry Dock. Oh yes, we, our local has jurisdiction for the whole Bay Area Mare Island in the Navy Yard, all the, the wooden boat yards on the estuary. Uh, we had then in the war when the war came when the new

00:01:25.170 - 00:01:45.910

shipyards were built, we had a huge membership Kaiser, you know, the Kaiser yards, we had marine ship that was Bechtel, yeah, uh. Yeah, we had Bethlehem. And uh uh down to South City. We even had a, I think we had a Unit down around Redwood City

00:01:45.910 - 00:02:02.430

that was building concrete barges. We had a wide jurisdiction. It was, it was great to be a young secretary of the local, but in the war, I was very, I was of that generation that was anti-fascist. I mean, I thought Hitler was the scourge of the

00:02:02.430 - 00:02:18.410

earth, and so I joined the navy and that that ended my union career. So once you were in the the navy you came off these. Oh no, no, I, I stayed as a member of the union, but I couldn't be secretary. Hell, I was in China.

00:02:18.500 - 00:02:39.510

I was went through the Pacific, you know, uh, uh, and it, you know, Philippine Islands and China ended up in China. So by the time I came back, uh, there was a pie card running there. You know, kind of a, Graft Pie pie card. That's a

00:02:39.510 - 00:02:58.770

guy who, that's a union term for someone who's on the pie on on the gravy train, a hustler you would call him now a fat, uh, what, uh, you know, conman, fast, fast buck operator, the wheeler and dealer. We call that pie card, but uh well

00:02:58.770 - 00:03:17.820

I went when I came home, you know, I just, I went back to work to my trade uh I didn't see any. These were just uh facets of a single personality that is. Uh, to be a good union man was like being a good craftsman. That

00:03:17.820 - 00:03:38.670

is one complimented the other. You, you couldn't advance in the union just by mouthing off. That is, if your fellow workers didn't unders respect your skill, how could you? So, uh, I know that our local was a very democratic local, was a marvelous local. Anyhow, uh,

00:03:38.800 - 00:03:56.220

when I came back, And Uh, by then I was married and I started a family, so, uh, I worked on the front and then when work slacked off, I worked, Oh, by the way, one of my big uptown jobs was here at Parkers Inn. Yeah, I

00:03:56.220 - 00:04:10.150

worked on, oh, and I hated that it was cold and clammy and foggy. We, uh, my particular, I worked on the window box. I don't know if that makes any sense to you. I don't wanna waste the time on that, but so, you know, I did

00:04:10.150 - 00:04:28.860

some, I worked on the Mount Zion Hospital and, uh, I worked on the. Furniture mark, uh, you know, that is you, uh, we would, we, we, anytime there was waterfront work, we would try to work on the front. When work slacked down, we worked uptown. But

00:04:29.360 - 00:04:53.710

in those years, uh, that's when I. I would began. Well, I suppose the contradiction is, uh, or it wasn't a contradiction to me, but I I never. I gave up on any intellectual pursuits. I mean, I, you know, it always seemed to me that. One should

00:04:53.710 - 00:05:15.760

talk on the floor of the local about issues. And one should talk in, You know, in San Francisco to peers about the issues of the day. Well, I had friends who were, In politics, social workers, librarians. I've met, you know, intellectual friends and, uh, I never,

00:05:15.780 - 00:05:41.410

uh, It never entered my mind that I should take a back seat to them. Uh, because they were white collar. You know, So, uh, you know, I could talk about William Faulkner. I could talk about Plato. I could talk about structuralism. I, you know. I've never

00:05:41.410 - 00:06:01.400

had any problem with. 00 yeah, I, yeah, I guess, yeah, I, I would have finished my undergraduate work in Berkeley. I went to Cal from, well, I went to college from, 36 to 39. Yeah, I have a BA and, and I studied literature. Um-hum. Philosophy, political

00:06:01.400 - 00:06:23.710

theory. I had some great professors. I loved. That wasn't unusual, was it? In the 1930s, many young people uh. That is, now youngsters go to college to rise out of working class families or immigrant families, but then, uh, we took a lesson from uh Eugene Victor

00:06:23.710 - 00:06:40.030

Debs, who was the great socialist leader. He said, don't use your education to rise above your class. That is, don't step on the shoulders of your fellow workers, you know, if anything, if you wanna go up, pull them up with you. But don't climb on them

00:06:40.030 - 00:06:58.170

and push them into the mud. So we would, uh, my wife, for example, she finished Cal and then she went to work in the San Joaquin Valley. In the Farm Security Administration and what would now, did you see the movie Grapes of Wrath? You read the

00:06:58.170 - 00:07:16.910

book. Oh, you read, well, they had camps for the migrants and Luanne worked with the migrant children. So, um I had friends who went to work in, uh, you know, auto plants. Some went to Alaska, uh, some worked for social agencies, uh, but generally we, we

00:07:16.910 - 00:07:43.510

were young new dealers. We were socially committed. We had strong, uh, strong sense of community, and, uh, we were not. We were not Uh Well, well, we saw, we were into self-fulfillment, but we saw self-fulfillment in terms of a, of social idealism or, or a. Notions

00:07:43.510 - 00:08:02.000

of Social change, but, uh, you know, to, to just get out of school and try to manipulate the stock market or something, we thought that was pretty sick. And uh so so you know I I is this are you talking about you your peers. Are you

00:08:02.140 - 00:08:22.240

talking about? Oh, I think not the whole, oh no, no, no, no, that's exaggerated. Some people in retrospect say all the youngsters in the 1930s were social idealists. No, uh, probably. I don't know that anyone has ever worked out a percentage, you know, whether it was

00:08:22.260 - 00:08:41.370

a third or half, I don't know, but, but it wasn't just 1 or 2, hundreds of us, uh. Children, uh, from well-to do families. But, but in great, that is, we didn't feel brave. I mean it was a, there were, we had a lot of support,

00:08:41.590 - 00:09:00.770

hundreds and hundreds, thousands. And all over the country. So it, it, it didn't seem strange to me to go to college and then uh not go well some of our, some of my peers did go move into professions like labor law that was uh uh government

00:09:00.990 - 00:09:27.980

New Deal agencies to work for the uh NLRB, Social Security, Farm Security Administration, but, but, but in my case, the, I guess the romance of the waterfront was too great. Do you feel that um. Country has become. More or less what? Social. 000, it's America, United

00:09:27.980 - 00:09:51.420

States of America has never been socialistic. But are we less social now than, say, in the New Deal period? Yes, that is the whole meaning of, of Reaganism is the elevation of, of, uh, selfishness of individual advancement, of, uh, uh, cutting safety nets to use his

00:09:51.420 - 00:10:16.630

language of, uh. Pushing, uh, well, look, You know, his people have a He takes You know, marine gung ho colonels puts them in charge of foreign policy, and they end up destroying the aspirations of ordinary people all over the world. So, you know, it is our

00:10:16.630 - 00:10:40.790

country less. Social now than in the New Deal period. Yes, at an official level, but, but does that mean we've all been transformed? No, I, I, I don't think Americans are innately, uh, selfish or innately, uh, corrupt or innately anything. I, I, I'm as optimistic now

00:10:40.790 - 00:10:58.830

as I've ever been. Life People So let me, I'm trying to, uh, get a grasp on you. I don't know how you're gonna get this together. OK, let me, let me see, you started out, um, you grew up, you were born in San Francisco or no,

00:10:58.940 - 00:11:17.430

it's, uh, you could just say I'm a Californian. That'd be easier. I don't want to tell you where I was born, just say. I went, I went to Cal, OK, uh, in the New Deal period, all right, then I went to work on the waterfront. Do

00:11:17.430 - 00:11:36.850

you got a BA? I have a BA in liberal arts, what was then called liberal arts, philosophy, political theory, uh, lit language and lit. Then you went to work as a shipwright to work as a shipwright at Western Pipe and Steel. But then I became secretary

00:11:36.850 - 00:11:55.490

of my union. OK, then I went into the Navy, that's a sequence, OK? Then I went into the Navy, and it was a carpenter's Navy. And I came home in 46. And went back to the waterfront to work, not to the, oh, I'm, I'm, I stayed

00:11:55.490 - 00:12:16.340

in the union, but I didn't go back to union office, OK. I worked at my trade till 1959. The last building I worked on was the Crown Zillerback Building, beautiful building downtown. My partner and I put in a lot of teak, beautiful teak on the second

00:12:16.460 - 00:12:40.440

floor all around the cafeteria. It's still, yeah, it's a gorgeous building. Well, you go downtown sometimes. That's the last building I, I worked on, uh, Crown Zeller. OK, then when I left the trade. I went back, I went back to the academy. I went to the

00:12:40.440 - 00:13:09.800

University of Illinois. And I served as a librarian and did you know I had a, a library degree? I served as a librarian in the Institute of Labor. Industrial relations ILI. OK, that was in 1960 when I went to Illinois. OK, but my real interest was

00:13:09.800 - 00:13:43.950

labor, what I call labor lore, one word. Folklore of work. Blue collar culture, here are terms, occupational culture. Blue collar culture. Worker's expression. Labor lore, industrial folklore, these are all uh overlapping terms. You don't, you don't have a copy of my book, Only a minor. You've

00:13:44.000 - 00:14:15.830

got it yet or you can order some books through the library system. Yeah, that would be helpful. No, no, there's still some copies left. OK, uh, but the reason I mentioned that in 1972. The University of Illinois Press published. A book called Only a Minor, It,

00:14:15.860 - 00:14:42.990

it's one of the 3 or 4, Landmark studies in the culture of the American work of American working people. It's comparable to rebel voices, uh, which is a, a. Study of wobbly culture, for example. Now, in only a minor, I dealt with recorded coal mining songs.

00:14:44.300 - 00:15:12.270

And I dealt with recordings because one of the problems that interests me is the intersection of popular culture and folk culture. That's a whole conceptual problem that would take more time than we have to develop, but just to popular culture and folk culture which I distinguish,

00:15:12.530 - 00:15:35.910

that is I distinguish a traditional. Like an Appalachian miner, a traditional singer, or a native, an authentic cowboy or a native Indian from Bob Dylan, Joan Baez, Judy Collins, they're popular singers of folk songs. And, and you get, you know, you have problems of authenticity and

00:15:35.960 - 00:15:57.290

so on. So while you were um working in when I was working in the library, oh, while I worked at my trade, I collected labor lore, some simply by osmosis, you know, listening to old shipwrights, listening to wobblies, listening to, uh, reds who had organized on

00:15:57.290 - 00:16:22.320

the front, communists, socialists, anarchists. Uh, also to conservative building tradesmen, to Teamsters, I was like a sponge, you know, uh, just soaking it up. OK. But I also Had the advantage of a formal education so that I, I could read an academic journal or I could

00:16:22.320 - 00:16:53.050

understand archival practices and I. I, I, I've developed a, a personal library of recordings, songbooks. Uh You know, memorabilia, picket signs. Lithographs, uh, I, I was more interested in the culture of working people than in the. You might say then in their uh contractual relations with

00:16:53.050 - 00:17:17.690

the boss. And uh In terms of that chronology, this would represent probably a year or two after coming home from China. Yes, now. Uh When I worked on the waterfront, I didn't write though. When I became a librarian, I began writing. As I wrote, this was

00:17:17.710 - 00:17:35.610

an interesting, I don't know that this would interest you, but this would interest Lynn. Uh If you have some administrative, You know, and if you're verbal, you usually go up professionally. So after I was a librarian for a few years, I had a chance to advance

00:17:36.210 - 00:17:56.270

in the library system. You know, usually a librarian will manage uh become head librarian in a small library and a big library. But that presented a crisis for me because I would have my commitment would have been administratively to the library world and I was much

00:17:56.270 - 00:18:12.880

more interested in labor lore than in librarianship. It was hard, you know, when you're just asked that. Like, like the head librarian says I wanna promote you and then you say no, I don't wanna be promoted. So I quit the library and went to Penn and

00:18:12.880 - 00:18:33.290

got, that's when I got a PhD in folklore and that was fun because it took about. I was kidded, I was older than my fellow students, and it took about 30 years. My undergraduate degree at Cal was in 39, and my uh Doctorate was, I think,

00:18:33.320 - 00:18:53.500

in '68. That was at Pennsylvania? At, at University of Pennsylvania in Philly. So, it, it's a nice Ivy League degree, you know, it has a lot, I have some good credentials. But uh once, once I, I made that affirmation to being like what do you wanna

00:18:53.500 - 00:19:18.260

be when you grow up? Folklorist, uh, and from then on, I, I, I taught. I did some lobbying in Washington DC that's a whole other chapter that's fascinating. And uh I retired When I retired, I came back to Caselli's group, found my charter. And then I

00:19:18.280 - 00:19:40.380

met Lynn. When was that? Well, well, no, I wouldn't, no, actually Dave Selvin and his, see, I, I can't, they had really started the work before I came home, but I came home in '82 and uh yeah, Dave phoned me and right from the beginning I

00:19:40.380 - 00:19:57.130

put my shoulder to. So that now you have my whole life laid out naked in your little pads but it's interesting, isn't it? I've done a lot of things. Well, in addition to Archie, I don't know how many arches would go out of this, but we

00:19:57.130 - 00:20:14.850

are gonna have, uh, the exhibit, the lobby exhibit for January and February. We'll be here and in here, and then we'll have this opening of exhibit with a program with Archie speaking also with, uh. You might be able to do two, I think there should be

00:20:14.850 - 00:20:34.050

a story on the gift as an example of how stuff gets given. The archive and then probably another story closer to the uh to the meeting you know just just as a regular event on campus but but I think there should be some emphasis because the

00:20:34.470 - 00:20:52.300

part of the story should be see part of it should be that the archive is open to gifts of this sort and and we welcome these gifts. You know, that is what makes a person save something of great value for so many years and then just

00:20:52.300 - 00:21:08.680

put it in a car and drive it down, you know, it ain't easy. But your dad, your dad, you know, I've talked a lot to your dad. He, he, he, he, uh, he could give you some other angles, yeah, but I think you could do a

00:21:08.680 - 00:21:29.130

good story on, uh. Uh, rare or unique charter presented to archive. You know, this is a big in the archival world this is a tremendous scoop, you know, if, if the Bancroft people knew about this, they'd be over here now with a, a region's check. I'll

00:21:29.130 - 00:21:46.320

tell you that I think the history of the robbery. To me it is fascinating, yeah, you should read something about it, especially for especially San Francisco State, which is a working class, you, you should read, you know, there are uh. Get some stuff on Joe Hill

00:21:46.320 - 00:22:02.520

or books on Joe Hill, and this book Rebel Voices has great pictures if you wanted to do a graphic out of it. We don't have a copy. That's another now that is out of print. You've got to get someone to donate that Rebel Voices. Is this

00:22:02.520 - 00:22:23.320

a coincidence May 1st, is that what it was? I think that would have been a coincidence because that was a big day to them, but they would have. Issued the charters. See, issuing a charter. The moment the requisite number of workers send in, but it was

00:22:23.320 - 00:22:41.290

probably 10 workers and $10 you know what, they want to get the charter out to them through and through the mail, of course. Uh, unless maybe an organizer happened to be traveling and they'd say take in terms of an ultimate story and, and I think at

00:22:41.290 - 00:23:04.690

some point it should be done and you might mention this, we should coordinate this story at some point with the Italian American History Historical Society up in North Beach. Because, uh, they would be, they, in their newspapers of that period, they would have stories on the

00:23:04.690 - 00:23:26.040

bakers organizing and choosing, you know, the IWW uh I would assume that there were. Uh Bakery workers at that time in the AFL and uh like Jewish bakers that that made rye bread and all they, they had a Jewish baker's local and these people were these

00:23:26.120 - 00:23:46.750

people were craftsmen than no, no, no, no, not better as craftsmen, but these were red hot. This was an ideological statement to, to affiliate with the IWW in its formative years. Yeah, these were men of great idealism. And by the way, uh, this is something we

00:23:46.750 - 00:24:13.590

have to research that the IWW did not discriminate against women nor Orientals nor blacks, so that is, it was the first major union to really break discriminatory patterns, and it is possible that there were women in this local because because women worked in bakeries. If if

00:24:13.590 - 00:24:32.250

they're not in the IWW files because you know they were prosecuted in the war and their files were stolen, if there is information on these people, it would be in the uh the North Beach Press yeah someday soon I assume a researcher, in fact this article

00:24:32.250 - 00:24:46.380

will bring a researcher here I think when you get the article then you. Bring someone from their museum down, they might want to make a good, uh, really good photo for their own files or for, you know, to use, but, but there is a point of

00:24:46.380 - 00:25:00.340

archives is to have to collect things and have researchers and students and historians and all sorts of people come and do research and definitely. We want this to be a magnet. We're not hoarding it here, you know, it's been, it's been hidden too long and, and

00:25:00.340 - 00:25:19.890

now there's a. But I made this decision, you know, about, oh, about 8 months ago, but I had a struggle with it for a long time because, uh, I have many valuable things, but this is the single, this is we over you we overuse the word

00:25:19.890 - 00:25:39.820

unique but in the sense of like say a Ben Shaw poster, but, but there may have been 1000 lithographs. You know, a dropper print and so on, even if there were just 100, but they're now in museums. But on this, uh, there's only 1 175th charter,

00:25:40.170 - 00:25:59.940

and the chance, how many locals could the Wobblies have had in San Francisco in those formative years, 2 or 3, and the chance of one of these things being saved, uh, only, uh, you know, a compulsive collector could. Could indicate to you the rarity of something

00:25:59.960 - 00:26:24.130

like this. What Well, because I believe in that that's what I. Thought was understood it's to be a magnet. It's to help this, it's to symbolize in part the kinds of things this archive will collect and the kinds of studies it will entertain and it's also

00:26:24.130 - 00:26:46.110

to make the ties that this archive, though it's a labor archive, has something to say about ethnicity. About community, about craft skill, about ideology of workers in San Francisco. So this is, this is, see this becomes a very graphic public statement as to what this archive

00:26:46.110 - 00:27:04.520

is about. Uh, I'll tell you it was painful because I'm a Cal graduate, you know, I, I, you know, I, I really have no, why should I be loyal to San Francisco State, but so, you know, this archive, see it pulls people from other disciplines and

00:27:04.520 - 00:27:29.070

other backgrounds into the San Francisco State orbit. And it's a testimony to Lynn, you know, that my confidence in her good work. So what projects are you involved in? What am I doing now? Oh yeah, well, I'm retired. Uh, yeah, I'm retired. Uh, I, uh, I

00:27:29.070 - 00:27:51.080

mostly work now on labor culture. Oh, I didn't even to show you how naive I am. Wait. Wait, I didn't even think of bringing it to get some publicity. God, the, uh, I, I've been editing a series of YouTube music, pop, rock, country. I, I've been,

00:27:51.230 - 00:28:12.580

I can't give this to you because I'm still working on it, but I've just edited two albums called Works Many Voices. Yeah. Uh, I didn't even think of bringing that to show and tell, but, uh, my records finally came out. Oh, on, on, on Sunday, the

00:28:12.580 - 00:28:31.330

7th, I hoped you would speak, uh, at the history workshop you're gonna talk about that's here, the 7th of December, yeah, I'll, I'll, I'll bring my records, yeah, but I, I have, I'm editing now a 10 volume set that will be uh. 16 songs on each,

00:28:31.420 - 00:28:52.110

160 songs. Of all aspects of work. From so that's the whole collection is works many voices. Yes, that's the overall title of volume in 10, you know, volume 1, volume 2, volume 3, volume 4, and we will have songs of craft and industry, songs that foreign

00:28:52.110 - 00:29:17.980

language songs, Mexican corridos, farm workers songs, Cajun songs of. Oil workers songs we'll have hard hat type songs, radical. Songs, country and western, blues, rock, and so on. So, uh, that's one of my big ongoing projects. My second ongoing project is to, I promised the University

00:29:17.980 - 00:29:42.750

of Illinois Press a uh. A book on blue collar labor lore. A series of case studies on the genres, there's a tale. A proverb, a ritual, with different exact. By the way, this is how I collect. I just people make for, you know, singles, but these

00:29:42.770 - 00:29:59.800

are not put out by big companies. These are basically vanity pressings where, you know, you, you, you, you make a dub and then you pay someone 200-300 dollars and put it out, give it. Did you see Loretta Lynn coal miner's daughter? Remember at the start she

00:29:59.800 - 00:30:14.670

makes a $45 up in Seattle and then she goes and she. Mails it to radio stations and then she visits this, you know, no one plays it and she visits the station and the, the disc jockey gives her a big line of jibe. Oh yeah, we're,

00:30:14.950 - 00:30:31.450

you're getting a lot of airplay and then when she walks out, she looks on the counter and she sees her she had handwritten, you know, the package and it's unanswered and she looks at the jockey and she knows he's lied and she's crushed. Uh, that's a

00:30:31.470 - 00:30:52.330

magnificent theatrical moment. Well, I, I learn about these things and I write to people and collect them and, uh, uh, uh. I'm interested in, see, uh, if you have, if you've gathered, I think you have by now, I'm interested in helping workers present themselves. I'm interested

00:30:52.330 - 00:31:17.030

in their voices, you know, their pictorial sense, their aesthetic codes, uh, like, like I like Bruce Springsteen. But I see him now essentially as belonging to, though he's making the fight, he's putting up a good fight, but essentially he's a property that now belongs to mass

00:31:17.030 - 00:31:36.530

culture, you know, selling millions of records and pretty soon he'll be, you know, he'll be wearing. Gucci shoes and you know and he'll be in seclusion and on and on and on he can't help uh he has the best chance of any because he's strong and

00:31:36.530 - 00:31:43.090

gutsy to withstand those pressures but the others you know like. Bob Dylan.