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OK, well, why don't we begin and uh. I have a set of questions here, Carl, that is a general set of questions that will leave a lot of room for you to explore as we go into it. And then as we talk, I'll improvise some questions

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which I feel might be more specific to your particular history, and Sam, who is here, has been through all this, so you know, Sam, your input is really will be appreciated. OK, Carl, uh. Were you, uh, a product of a radical family? In other words, were

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your parents actively involved in radical politics? OK. Were they involved in uh labor at all? My father was a both my father and mother were teachers. Graduate, uh, my father was uh. Graduate from class one of. Of Purdue University, he was. And uh my mother was

00:01:07.769 - 00:01:31.930

a graduated from Terry O, Indiana um normal school of course Dera Holt is the genes uh yeah and uh I don't, I don't ever recall. While they're talking about that if he did. You must have known of him. Because he was there at the time, you

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know. And then And my relatives, my cousins and uncles were there. Home was in Summitville just north of that's not a few miles from, right. Well, now you were raised where? Were you raised in uh I was born my father. Uh, after he got out of

00:02:02.870 - 00:02:40.449

the Civil War. He went uh came back home and finished his education. 3 years in uh Purdue graduated there. And after graduation, he uh. The Indian wars were going on in Dakotas. And Nebraska, Kansas. And uh here. Was in Induced to Joint He was given a

00:02:40.449 - 00:03:15.190

commission. And he fought in the Indian wars for a time until he became disgusted with the. With the way the government was treating the Indians and resigned. I was uh uh. Ask to resign. I, I don't know which there's some. Um Scandal about my father's attitude

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towards the Indian situation and uh anyway he got out of. The army there after a couple of years. Then he married Uh, My mother And they Went as teachers down to a new town in uh Missouri, south southwest Missouri. Um Just can't recall the name of

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the town now. It's near Joplin if you know that it's just a few miles east of Joplin, Chopin's right. And uh Then Uh, the government opened up Homestead land in Arkansas. And Group of uh My father's contemporaries. And friends and brothers, but two of these brothers.

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And 04 or 5, I don't know how many of the neighbors. Uh migrated to Arkansas and and kind of formed a colony. Not, not exactly quality, but they got homestead close together and uh someone started raising hogs. It's a country. Acreage Mass is very plentiful oak

00:04:54.390 - 00:05:19.649

trees, the white oaks and black oaks and. And water oaks and so forth. What part of Arkansas was right in the northwest corner corner just a few miles from the from the 3 miles from the Oklahoma. Mine and um. Uh, about 10 miles from very much.

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Anyway, uh. Father started teaching school. Of course my mother having children and she didn't. My father was Uh, never radical as I know, but he always had. Right at the books like Henry George's Progress and Poverty, and by the way, uh reading Progress and Poverty started

00:05:51.390 - 00:06:25.140

me on the road trip. radicalism. Have you read any of Bellamy's work on MTN. And well, I've read everything on. Uh, I do. Marks the debs. That's a that's a pretty big order. I was gonna say not everything of uh marks, uh, no, no, I, I,

00:06:25.239 - 00:06:51.790

I waded through Dust Capital and, uh, but, uh, I have quite a number of these pamphlets and so forth and some of his shorter. Yeah OK, all right. Easily understood right now have you read uh uh some of the popularized versions like uh some of Kovsky's

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uh work and uh things which were very heavily circulated back in those years. But we're sort of skipping ahead now you were born in 18. 18 1886, so you're 91 now, right. And uh February 2, right, and you were born in Arkansas then, OK. Uh what

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uh when were you first introduced to uh uh work, uh particularly, did you start off in the railroads or were you, uh, uh, starting off in some other occupation? Well, um. I studied for a ministry. What? You studied for the ministry? Now you never told me

00:07:44.790 - 00:08:11.679

about that. You know, my father was a pastor, so I, I, I'm intrigued. I was. After 2 years in seminary, I kicked out. Because of my questions that they couldn't answer. What seminary were you at? is a branch of the Johns Hopkins Methodist University. It's called

00:08:11.679 - 00:08:33.309

the Arkansas Conference College. And I've taken some uh courses in uh injury College. Is that name familiar? Oh yes, you know, my mother went to College of the Ozarks, you know College of the Ozarks. Have you ever heard of that in Clarksville? Oh yeah, yeah, I

00:08:33.309 - 00:08:53.260

see that's, yeah, my mother went there. And my father taught at the College of the Ozarks. Yeah, it's, it's a, yeah, see, my mother's in Arkansas. She was raised is a coincidence where she's raised in Clarksville. No, no, she was, uh, raised in Mansfield. Mansfield, Mansfield,

00:08:53.320 - 00:09:10.289

Ohio. It's a very small, yeah, and uh then she went to school in Clarksville, and that's where she met my father. But uh this is, but that's my history now uh tell me about yourself. So you, you went to uh a school then after Drury. I

00:09:10.289 - 00:09:51.239

went to dry. Uh 2 years and uh then circumstances brought me back to. Home right and then. Arkansas, which is only 60 miles from Springfield and um. I Continued my studies and. And uh this Arkansas conference which is. Um Methodist institution. But I was uh A

00:09:53.010 - 00:10:19.159

I When I couldn't uh. Swallow a lot of things. Do you, do you remember what the specific questions you raised? Well, actually, in studying the Bible I draw on the questions that uh all that. I used to remember, but I couldn't tell him now that. 00,

00:10:19.530 - 00:10:44.020

I, I had that. Why it was necessary for us to have to believe these miracles like Jonah the hole and the virgin birth and these things that always crack me because I said here's a religion. Has validity in some respects, but these myths and and uh

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miracles and so forth. I can't swallow it, and I would ask questions about why it was necessary anyway. Uh, one day they. Professor, the uh uh head of the institution. Who liked me very much and and uh thought I was going to make a good creature.

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He came to me and during class. And uh He said uh Carl, Carla, she always called me Carla because she's really. Uh Meet me at down in the front. After school and let's go for a walk. I smelled a Crack like this And beautiful, we had

00:11:40.700 - 00:12:01.679

a beautiful campus. And all the trees were hickory, you know what the hickory, you know how beautiful they are, you know how deep the leaves can get, but we went. And he began talking all around about religion and faith and so forth. And then he said

00:12:01.679 - 00:12:33.419

that. I feel that you don't have faith enough. To carry you through this. You ask too many questions. He said if you don't have faith. Absolute faith There's no use you staying out. And I agreed with it. And I never felt a greater relief in all

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of my life than I did when he said uh. He wished me well and and. Uh, going to. Go to another college. And he write me a recommendation. And uh give me. The my record, my scholastic records. Things are conducted much different than they are now

00:13:05.320 - 00:13:35.840

as far as conducting the school is concerned. Anyway, I But And then I began reading, I began to. Uh, question myself, my own sincerity or. What I really believed in and and uh going deep into it as, as a young father I can. And uh There

00:13:35.840 - 00:14:06.710

was um Symposium, maybe you can remember it, maybe it's something you recall it in 194. The um Cosmopolitan magazine. Had a for the full year of 1904, a symposium of 12 of the leading intellectuals in the United States, including Teddy Roosevelt and uh uh Elliot Harvard

00:14:06.710 - 00:14:32.770

and. Some of the uh Uh, they did this and so forth and waited to call including Jack London. And the uh subject was what life means to me. I remember that. I remember I wasn't there, but I remember reading about that, yeah. I can't, I can't

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resist asking at this point, Carl, if you ever met Jack London. No, I never. Oh, I've set the fireside and here he can talk to him, but I never, however, I lived on the London ran directly after he died, the one right up here, yeah, yeah.

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I had an adjoining. I bought an adjoining farm. Join the London ranch right next to the park. No, where was your farm located, right? Grand Canyon, uh, yeah, right. That was in 1915. No, that was in 1988, yeah, he died in 15, wasn't it? 16, right,

00:15:17.200 - 00:15:42.919

right. Uh, OK, well then you, uh, now you were talking about the symposium, the cosmopolitan uh. And he, he wrote this for you. Uh, he wrote And an article. And it was so, if you ever get a chance to read London book again, look for that

00:15:43.409 - 00:16:05.669

what life means to me, it is in a. Uh, volume. Of his letters and shorts and I had it. I, I had several copies of it. It it was reprinted in a separate pamphlet. I remember reading it. Yeah, it was in a separate pamphlet, and, um,

00:16:06.400 - 00:16:34.239

but then uh I had it in, in, uh. Mrs. Mrs. Charming mother gave me this. In fact, he had a whole stack of these books. I did the finish work on the museum. Oh, there you go on the wolf house. No, no, no, the, the house

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that was built for Charmian that was her idea after the Wolf house burned. And uh So I I learned all about the. The uh London and his family and that uh very few people know and there is such a Misconception of It's, you know, he was.

00:17:01.460 - 00:17:22.650

A bastard in the first place was born out of wedlock. And um uh Mrs. Shepherd, Eliza Shepherd, you supposed to have been his sister no operation. And you know a lot of. Right, right. Well, you know, we'll have to go into that on a separate table

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because I, I've always been a Londonite. My father was a writer and he idolized Jack London and I was raised with London as as my hero as a as a young child, so I'm really intrigued by that. But you came out to California Carl when in

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196019 so you were here during the York or right after the out here because. Uh, recall for. when I came out here to as a carpenter or several of them. A contrast here. A builder Uh, from our hometown. Uh, came out and uh. It's uh he

00:18:08.579 - 00:18:34.689

was a first cousin of um. Um John McLaren, builder of Golden Gate Park and uh. He came out here and and. Uh, went to work in. His son was with him and his son was. We were very close, same age and everything, went to school together.

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You were how old when you came out here, um, you were 20 right. Right And uh I I went to work for under him. That On the Claremont Hotel. Oh, you worked on the Claremont, yeah, I worked on the Gramont and I had some. Great experiences

00:18:59.569 - 00:19:24.130

there. You know that was the greatest rip off in the history of. In what way? Well, you don't belong to the hero. In the Southern Pacific. Was trying to destroy the cue. They wanted the uh uh total domination of transportation in in the open aline and

00:19:24.130 - 00:19:52.910

Berkeley area, you know, in the huge. Was uh Well established there and they had a good transportation system. And uh They were when they started to build this Claremont Hotel. The southern ship and the people interested. Did everything they could to bankrupt and they did. They're

00:19:52.910 - 00:20:20.780

bankrupted me. You know, the hotel was we worked on it until we got the roof on. And uh Oh, just half finished. And The you had to stop. And uh is in bankruptcy. And finally the southern city took over, took over. Now the what was the

00:20:20.780 - 00:20:42.810

uh the uh line the key route went from where to where? Well, it had the uh lines all over the East Bay, so it was primarily Bay Area line yeah these are just the main cities, no, no, just around the bay and the the uh son

00:20:42.810 - 00:21:18.040

too. Had a competing lines and they often competed down the same streets. Or parallel. Now, this was your introduction to the railroad industry uh was I. When I was 1415 years old, I got a job in the local. Depo that In Arkansas in Arkansas right as

00:21:18.040 - 00:21:41.160

just a funky and uh. Uh About $15 a month and I worked about 12 hours a day. What did you do? Well, just everything and uh. Uh, I, after about 6 months, I had, uh, advanced enough in teleroy so that I could uh. Go down the

00:21:41.160 - 00:22:18.349

shift Uh, night shift midnight and uh. So I learned telegraphy then. And uh I learned quite a little about railworking. When I came, when I came last night. After I left the Bay Area. Uh, in 197. There's like Big depression the summer of 1970. Remember when

00:22:18.349 - 00:22:48.170

the money was scarce and I used to uh. Certificates and anything substitute for money. Well, and that's sure. I uh Building, well, When The son should find me. Bankrupt is the key route and they had to stop work there I went. Living with another child and

00:22:48.400 - 00:23:18.959

building had just dropped down and and the McLaren. Left because they couldn't get anywhere and he'd gone up to Montana to for mining. And um The um Well, you were talking about the depression and uh that you were forced to take another. Then in the latter

00:23:18.959 - 00:23:51.079

part of 197. I uh After getting a letter from my friend Clarence up in Montana. I decided to go up there, so I sold my tubes and got. Not very Together to Buy a ticket on A boat and lumber schooner. Bring up to Portland and then

00:23:51.079 - 00:24:11.060

I. On narrow railroad into Montana. So you actually went to Montana then uh no I didn't. I got stuck in in in Portland Portland and uh went broke because I didn't have much money. And we got looking for a job there. And they were just starting.

00:24:13.400 - 00:24:41.180

Uh, Pilot Installations uh signals, the signal systems. And uh I got a job on as a as a signal installing the signal and after we were installed I got a job as maintenance. Now what railroad was that? That was the then. The ORNN, the Oregon Railroad

00:24:41.180 - 00:24:57.839

and Navigation Company, which is now the Union Pacific, it was all then. Uh branch of the heroin line. Now was that unionized at that time? There was no brotherhood or anything like that at the time. What when did the, uh, let's say now you that was

00:24:57.839 - 00:25:25.369

in what year when you started in 19 197 OK and uh let's say you worked with that outfit for how long? I worked there until 19. 13. 0, so you were there fairly good period of time. They were starting to install those signals up on the

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northern city, and I got a job uh between Spokane and Missoula, Montana on the North C. I was up there a year and a half. Right, so that was uh 1914, 1915. See, because you were 1913 to, yeah, it'd be about 19 just before the the

00:25:46.609 - 00:26:02.290

war, right, OK, now when, when did the uh Carol and this is this is a more of a historical question, but uh I know it has direct reference to you. When did the unions first hit the northern Pacific and the uh the. Well, there, there was

00:26:02.290 - 00:26:36.250

a, uh, we trained them and uh firemen and engineer. This has a good history of this la. Ginger book right the uh book. Uh, the signalman. We tried to Get into the I see um. American Federation of Labor, you know, AFL and they wouldn't. Unless. Why?

00:26:36.859 - 00:27:00.369

Oh, they didn't want to fool us, you know, we didn't want to take responsibility of that and we were small because there were very few signal and I think. In uh on the northern Pacific in the uh. Western Pacific. Yeah. Yeah. Harman lines and the cigar

00:27:00.369 - 00:27:25.910

and. 34 railroads up in the northwest but only had a. 20 or 300 singing you know but then. It was a big part of that. Right now the gopher's line was that uh because of your size and because of the inconvenience of having to go all

00:27:25.910 - 00:27:47.520

the way up to the northwest area, uh, they just considered it out of their jurisdiction or what? We tried and tried, uh, we sent a delegation back to Chicago and uh tried to get in. And uh they were paying us uh. $75 a month for uh.

00:27:49.050 - 00:28:10.209

24 hours incredible. Yeah, we were on duty 24 hours a day. One call this this $75 a month that didn't include war, did it? No, it was just they generally gave you a a box car to live in or something like that if you were in

00:28:10.209 - 00:28:34.959

a place where you couldn't get to that that's incredible. I when we've got it finally got a. I raised to $90 a month. And we didn't get any more reason until uh. MA took over. Which was when? 1917 1917. OK, I'm gonna change the tape.