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October 29, 1987 Interview with Carl Anderson, San Francisco. Which is not Very widespread. It's only lately, according to him, that universities have given, uh, or that historians have been specializing in labor history. So you're taking this course. How long a course is this? I really don't

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know. I, uh, I only take it if, uh, because I'm interested and, uh, I, um, I don't even take the exams. I refuse at my age to take exams. I'm not doing this for credit, so I don't feel I should go in and compete and, uh,

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yeah, I think that's wonderful because you are curious. So you, so this is a history of the labor movement. Yeah, very sweeping, uh, right, um, but you have been, uh, involved in the labor movement for how long? Well, I've I've always belonged to unions ever since

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I was about 14 and uh um. And they've been active to one degree or another in unions. Well, can you tell me, uh, when this all started? Your working career was, what year was that when you were 14? Uh, that would be 1940 and uh. In

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northern Scotland. Well, I, I was living at the time in, uh, in Glasgow. And then In those days, And at least in Europe in those days, if you want to be independent financially, And wanted to run away from home, there were really two things you did.

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One was go to sea and the other was joining a circus. And I chose to go to sea and so I, I worked on the fishing boats up in northern Scotland out of Wick and. And Then I worked on the ferry boat between Lan and Stranra.

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Between Scotland and Northern Ireland. And then later on I went on to Commercial ships. And then I came to the United States in 1943. And I was in the MFOW Marine, Marine firemen, water, oilers. And wipers association. Which was a West Coast Maritime Union. And then

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later on I became a pilotbot. A pilot pile butt a pilot working the pile driving rigs, yeah, but, uh, so you learned on the job. Yeah. But as a youngster, going to sea, it must, it must have been very difficult. In what way? Well, um, the

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cold, the rain. Um, working hard, just, Well, that was all part of the adventure when you're young like that, you can do that. You didn't feel sorry that you got on. Oh no, that was all my time at sea was the greatest time in my life.

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I never had a it should happen to everybody. It really a marvelous adventure. You travel all over the world. You meet, uh, all kinds of people. From the high to the low, there were doctors and lawyers I met going to sea on ships for one reason

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or another. And then we uh. And what happens partly on I think er er when you go to sea after a while, er people start telling you things that they wouldn't normally tell. When they are ashore, I, I, I don't, I'm not sure what happens, but,

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uh, I do know that people tell you very intimate and personal things that, uh, I, uh, an experience I've never had ashore with people. I suppose it's the isolation and uh loneliness in a certain sense. Though I never felt really lonely. I could look out at

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the ocean and it seemed to me changing all the time. My wife can't stand taking cruises. It doesn't bother. I love them. You were very imaginative because I, I think that the, the, um, scene does change when I look out at the clouds, you can sit

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and watch for a long time. But what kind of work were you doing or what was a long work day, wasn't it? On the fishing boats? Yes, I was basically a cabin boy and I think I got 0.1% of the take. And guaranteed a minimum of

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10 shillings a month. But it was almost got more than the 10 shillings, uh, which was, uh, more than, much more than really sounds today. Uh But he I forget just how many, probably at least 10 hours a day, maybe 1012. I really can't remember how

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much, uh, how many hours I put in on the um. Commercial ships, it was regulated 8 hours a day, 7 days a week. And you never had trouble getting a job? No, no, I, I came in when the war 1940, the war already started in Europe.

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And So and then of course after the war there was always A lot of unemployment, the war economy, of course, stimulated the economy in America, well throughout the world, probably certainly in America. But the um the The power driving industry, the heavy construction industry, never even

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suffered the recessions that Up until lately anyway, uh, because they, they represented the investment of heavy capital. And the capital in America has been expanding, at least up to lately, so we never really had a recession and I've, um, the Carquinas Bridge, uh, I worked on

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the Carquinas Bridge, and that gave me a the down payment for my house and, and, uh, can you tell me a little bit about that experience on the road the Carquinas, yeah, uh. From what point of view? Well, from your point of view, getting the job,

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uh, what it took, uh, the working conditions there, well, it, uh, it was one of the most interesting ones I had in power driving. Uh, uh, I, I told you, of course, that I paid and I, uh, made the down payment for the house, and the

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reason for that was we were working 6 10s. That meant that we worked 2 hours overtime every day, which was at double time. And then, and then, and on a Saturday, that was it, so that was 26, 1020, you know, that, that was your two weeks'

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pay for one week because of the double overtime working 6 tents. And, um, but the, the crew was made up of, uh, some very talented men, both as union men and as a, um, That's a craftsman, Jack Milton, who became the The head business agent, first

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assistant business and then head business agent. Then MC Jennings, who became the secretary treasurer of the local. Uh, Keller. Who ran the, who was the chairman of the wildcat strike. And What is his name? And then the Corp Corbin was the foreman and he became assistant

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business agent for 2 years. And Staliner. And uh there was, what's the name of the other guy? And the crew. Well, I forget his name, uh, but he was very active in the union. All of us were, and there was, uh, and they were, they were

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very, very good, uh, craftsmen, Johnnymen, and then, uh, I made a very enjoyable. We, uh, it was, it was, we worked down in Bethlan. Shipyards in a dry dock and built free caissons. Built built free caissons for. What is that phone? That was a phone, I

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think. We built 3 caissons. One was they're each 150 ft one way and 50 ft the other. We have a wooden dome, concrete sides, and concrete braces inside. And I think we brought them up at least 50 ft and then floated them up to um To

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Kakkinis. And sunk them with, uh, well, held them in place with 26, 25 tons anchors, concrete anchors, and then, uh, kept filling them up and building up the walls and sinking them to bedrock. And Well, that was uh That yeah that was an interesting one. So,

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uh, the, the years that this was being built. What the the darkness bridge I can't it was 25, uh, 25, 26, 27 years ago. It's a long time. So, um. So your crew was, uh, you knew your crew. It was a really a small group of

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men that you worked with, right, the power boat was right, it was right. There were 7 of us if I remember right. So there was a lot of camaraderie. Mhm. Some of the, though it ended later on it became, there was a lot of breakup, um,

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uh, Rudy Corbin, who was a foreman, uh, became an assistant business agent and the Jack Milton who wanted the job, um, and eventually got it. Uh, Corbyn did some very foolish things. Uh, uh, he, he, he, they, they went into a struggle for the job. But

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the real conflict came with uh Keller, who is really a distant cousin of Jack Milton's. And after the uh Wildcat strike, where he and a few others, uh, merged as uh heroes and were highly respected, uh, in the union. But um and they try to uh

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It appeared to some, I'm not too sure the real truth of it, that it was personal, but the They dissipated their goodwill. They they used it up. They exhausted the the respect that the members had by Being irrational in their attack on the leadership and the

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demands that they were making, and they ended up really being discredited. It's unfortunate. At least I thought because there were people with talent. I always remember Keller. At one meeting. The, uh, somebody says, well, what we're gonna do, uh, say one caster, they were going out

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and, uh, and picketing these jobs and appealing to the consciousness of the man. And so they were saying, well, what if this happened and what's, and what if this happens? What, what were we going to do or what should we do? So he says, when you

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get there, You'll think of something. If you want an answer, you'll think of something, you'll do something and it'll be the right thing. And I thought that was the best answer that really was. I always remember that, uh, I thought it was a very astute answer

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and uh. It's an answer our leader should give. It's it's something in a sense he was he was he was taking his own advice. He was coming up with a solution. But couldn't it also lead to violence? Well, that's yeah. Mhm. So there was a lot

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of trust that these people would use good judgment. Right, they were appealing to their union brothers by and large and so that would um. Who strictly Tendency towards violence. I see. Now when you talk about the wildcat strike, what precisely was this? It actually started in

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Local 22 Carpenters. There was a dissatisfaction with a contract that was negotiated. And the, uh, if I remember right, the, the, uh, a friend of mine started it in, uh, Local 22, um, uh, Neil Kirk. And later it's brother. And uh they, they were, I remember

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the first day I saw this, I was driving by the uh the uh Du Bois Park, the, the high school there uh I was driving by and I saw this guy out uh. Uh, with a picket sign, so I stopped saying, what's going on? And he

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says, they're, they're effing us. And nobody's going to cross this picket line. Uh, uh, yeah, but he was angry and worked up, uh, and, uh, well, I, I could tell that something was doing, uh, by his attitude, and then it, uh, spreads to other locals, and,

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um, I think Local 34, which is always power driving is local, has always had a good reputation, a justifiable reputation as a, uh, a militant local, and they paid, uh, active and progressive, uh. And a leadership role in the wildcat strike, uh, wildcat strike is essentially

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not an authorized strike. It's not a legal, it's technically a legal strike. It's one that generally emerges from the bottom, which this one did. It was sort of um. Discontent By the membership. So then how was it resolved? Or how are these usually resolved, these wildcat

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strikes? You know, I can't remember even what the issues were today, you know, so long ago, what the demands were. And the, the, uh, how successful, I can't even remember that. I do remember that the, uh, the part of the problem was the outlining districts beyond

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the immediate barrier area was not very effective. The carpenters are not highly not as organized as they should be, and even within San Francisco there was a lot of scabbing going on. There were stories, I assume they were true, of the crew sleeping on the job

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so they wouldn't have to come in and out on the picket lines. Um I think I, I was picketing at the, uh, at the, uh, at the telephone company's building of the PG&E was one of the others down at the foot of market, uh, I guess

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that's PG&E and um. There were people going into work there. You were picketing for the wildcat. For your child, right, yeah. Well, how would you be picking? There No, I thought that you'd be picketing on a. Um, by the waterfront. No, we weren't on strike. Oh,

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this was, uh, as a sympathetic. Yeah, I was doing it as a union member as a, yeah, for the, for the, yeah, for the union for the carpenters union or whatever. Well, the power drivers, yeah. Um-hum. But you say the pile drivers were not striking, so

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it was, oh yes, the pipe drivers were striking. 00 yeah, they were wildcats, yeah, the pile drivers are part of the Carpenters International. We belong, we're a separate local. Uh, just like the mill rights are a separate local, but they belong to the carpenter International, and

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they belong to the, the district council of carpenters. They're part of the structure of the, uh, of the carpenters and the labor women in general. I see. All right, so, uh, yeah, go ahead. No, no, no, I, I, I didn't know that, that part. So, uh,

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what other jobs, uh, did you work on that you found as interesting as the car in this ridge? Well, the, uh, the, uh, the dam. Which I think it's up in pleasant. Uh, we built a Structure that holds that uh allow the that retains water back

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of the dam. So that will always say I think that is to protect the machinery of the main dam. If I remember, uh, only part I worked on was uh was a building the uh the uh. I forget what they call that. That was over 30

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years or so ago that, but it was sent to, yeah, it was made out of 12 by 12 and. Creosol tempus. And they were pre-cut for a design which might have been a mistake. I guess it was all right. They were gonna pre-drill the hole. They

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at least they didn't, uh, so that the, uh, everything would make sure it would line up right, but they changed their mind on that, which turned out to be a good, uh, decision on their part, uh. But I think the reason I liked that job because

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I had a relatively easy job. I, I, I, I had the blueprints and I was to, my job was the material was scattered all over the place and my, my job was to go and find the material with a, uh, with a crawler and uh get

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it down on the job site and, uh, and dis uh distribute it so that, that then it could be put into place and, uh, and, um, drilled and bolted. I think they packed dirt behind it. But uh um well. So that was another big job then.

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Well, that was a yeah, relative. It was in winter time, uh, uh, it was cold, it was snowing all the time, and, uh, you couldn't put on enough clothes to keep warm, uh, uh, I, I bought my first and last pair of long johns, uh, never

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wore them since, uh. Uh, for that job, it was colder than not working the fishing boats in, uh, in up in the Shetland Shetland Islands, uh, at least that's how I remember it, uh. It's so cold. I didn't know that it could be that cold. But

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the food was good there and Yeah I guess I, I, I, I, uh, part of it, uh, is that, uh, uh, going to see, I, I, I, I can, I like that sort of thing can get away where they're, I was gonna say all men, but,

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uh, I guess that is the truth, uh, they're all men, uh, on these, in these situations, uh, and, uh, uh. And like that there's another kind of feeling there or closeness among the people. You probably you're not competing for the women, that might be the reason.

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Mhm. Could be a likely reason, yeah. Yeah. Uh-huh. Or they don't have to be anybody but themselves. Themselves, right, yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Um-hum. Now, How did you get up to the point where you were a pile driver? Who taught you this? Or how did you learn?

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Uh At that time there was no apprenticeship programs and um. A friend of mine, uh, well, Jim Osborne, who, uh, Archie Green's article talks about. Yeah, yeah, yeah, he, he was, uh, in the local and, uh, he got me in. And And so you, you, what

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you do is, uh, you just bluff it and you work twice as hard as you would, you would if you knew what you were doing. To compensate for not knowing and you just hope you learn fast. Well, obviously, you did. Yeah, right, yeah. Used to take

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jobs out of town quite a bit because you last, uh, you, you had a bit of chance to last because they had to pay your transportation and a certain amount for lodging and uh it was a lot of trouble, uh, to get, to get you replaced

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and uh. And uh The first job I had was up in Wairika. And summertime. And the the the where we're building it was for reaming concrete and they In a bridge, a small bridge over a little river. And it sat in a valley and the sun

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was up when we went to work and it was still up when we quit. And it was hot. I'd lay down at lunchtime even though I knew I was doing wrong and with my clothes on right in the river and lay there for a half hour.

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To cool off And the, um, I remember the school tender saying, son, maybe you should be an office worker. Well, I suffered on, on that job and I, I, I never would go back to work for Raymond. I always said I'd never work for that company

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again. It left such a bad. Impression on me unless I was hungry and fortunately I never got hungry so I never went to work with him again. But the, oh, the, the, what happened there, there was a young, uh, no young man, uh Jack Calloway on

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there and uh he, he took me under his wing and, uh, told me and showed me what to do. Who was an interesting guy, Jack. He Lived on the 6th between Howard and Mission, which was unprobable and there's still Skid Row. And he and a few

00:24:34.870 - 00:24:54.830

others moved into that area during the Depression. Precisely because there wasn't that much work and there wasn't that much money and it was a cheap place to live. Then when the war came along and prosperity came, culturally they were tied to it. They they couldn't get

00:24:54.830 - 00:25:13.690

out. They were they though Jack had been married, uh, Frank Seward had never been married, but they they they they they weren't married, so they, they, they couldn't they didn't feel they could leave, so this was their whole life. And Jack was an alcoholic and But

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he ended up Getting up drink and he was a short man to start with and he ended up as wide as he was tall and a, and a bartender. Down in 6th Street. I used to go down maybe once or twice or 3 times a year

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to talk to him and see him there. Mhm Yeah, so that you, it's nice to know people for a long period of time because you come in at different stages of their life. Now, did you ever hold or want to hold office? Oh yes, yeah, yeah,

00:25:52.900 - 00:26:18.980

a trustee of the of the local. And Vice president, negotiating committees. Mhm. So this, uh, this probably took a lot of time too. Yeah, in those days, yeah, there, there, there was an executive board meeting and a membership meeting once every week for 3 weeks out

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of the month, and the 4th 1 was for political education. And I don't know how I did it, not only I, other ones, and then we Some of us would also belong to the, it would belong to other, uh, most of us who are active belong

00:26:38.120 - 00:27:00.630

to other committees such as the District Council of Carpenters, the Building Trade Council, the Labor Council, the, uh, the political arm of the, uh, COP, uh, of the AFL-CIO, and, uh, you know, 3 or 4 nights a week, uh, what's an. Unusual Today I don't know

00:27:00.630 - 00:27:20.980

how I managed to do it. No, we didn't, of course it was, yeah, it was the enthusiasm and uh and uh was that because it was wartime and oh no, this was after the, the war actually the labor movement, the membership for attendance was in decline

00:27:21.010 - 00:27:45.740

um. At this point, in other words, there were fewer and fewer members coming to the meetings, uh, right, that's what I, I, uh, I let's see, I was 28 when I joined the Powerbots. I was 28 from 61. Uh, 33. So that was 33 years ago,

00:27:46.050 - 00:28:06.620

which means what it was during the right I joined after the Korean War, when the Korean War was on. Um-hum. Um-hum. And, uh, uh, while there was still, yeah, there were still big meetings you could still get, uh, on many, many nights, uh, where there were

00:28:06.620 - 00:28:28.500

issues, uh, you, you could still get the hall packed, uh, but it wasn't like it had been, um. Uh Right after the war, same with the maritime that for a long time, right after for a long time, the hundreds would attend the meetings. And, um, it

00:28:28.500 - 00:28:51.440

declined, uh, it too declined with the, uh, in this case, partly because McCarthyism, we had a communists in the, in the union and, uh, it was an awful film. Battle over that as it were. In most unions. And uh the the uh the uh MFOW was

00:28:51.440 - 00:29:17.490

a particular case because While they are marine cooks and stewards, uh, they, they were in control. Of the union. So their relationship to the problem was different than in the, in MFOW where they only held a secondary. Elected posts and they weren't in the top leadership

00:29:17.490 - 00:29:37.430

so their relationship to the leadership and to the rank and file was different than it was in marine cooks and stewards or in the longshoremen I. Assumed that they were in control there to one extent or another. Uh, it was certainly more vicious than the name

00:29:37.430 - 00:30:01.590

of OW. Uh Because of the Split in the leadership. You understand what I'm saying. Am I making it clear what I'm trying to say? Maybe you should explain that a little bit more. Well, the, the, with assuming that it's true that the marine cooks and stewards

00:30:01.590 - 00:30:22.680

and the, uh, longshoremen who were communist-led, they've been in the leadership. They were red baited, but they're. Having control of leadership, they were in a better position to defend themselves and had and and had also more of a base within the rank and file of the

00:30:22.680 - 00:30:45.570

union, whereas in the NFOW they were just in the second leadership business agents. They weren't, they didn't have control of presidency or the vice presidency. And so they they they they they were under attack from above and and even from from below. Now go ahead precarious

00:30:45.570 - 00:31:08.360

position. So those were really serious years there with the red. Now how did it affect you personally and the group that you were working with that you were most um. Well, it's connected with. Jack Olson, uh, as I, I don't, were we taping this when I

00:31:08.360 - 00:31:28.490

was saying that, uh, I was out at the, uh, the, uh. The labor archives we held our class last week, our labor history class out there. Jack Olson was a speaker there and he had been with the Californian Labor School. And they then he is he

00:31:28.490 - 00:31:46.240

helped if he's not still with the uh labor archives setting it up and um he uh he he talked about this period and it made me think back at at more or less and I was thinking myself probably the nicest thing I can say for myself

00:31:46.420 - 00:32:17.580

was that I never called anybody a commie. I may have said he was a communist, but I never said he was a communist. And it's probably taken 10 or more years to Cast off The prejudices, the excess baggage that this period placed on me, and I

00:32:17.580 - 00:32:34.220

certainly would, I certainly would have had a different attitude and would have Done things different. Not that I did that much because I, I was just beginning to come out, uh, you know, I, uh, nothing. I, I, I would have just have voted different would, would,

00:32:34.260 - 00:32:57.110

would have come down to. But, uh, what I felt and, and thought would have been different. Knowing what I know today. That being that the uh the the the that this was really an attack upon labor as a whole, it was an attack upon liberal and

00:32:57.550 - 00:33:16.480

political in the country within the labor movement for labor it was an attack upon labor and it weakened labor and it's never quite recovered from, uh, from this period and it divided it and so forth and it denied people their rights, uh. Now the people that

00:33:16.480 - 00:33:41.550

you were most involved with, were they, uh, communist or that they suffered more? No, no, the, the, the, the, they were socialists and uh. Um I've probably been a socialist since I was 13 or 14. I might not know what I thought at that time, but,

00:33:41.610 - 00:34:03.380

uh, as I remember it, it was the, the my education started on that level by, um, an Indian, Indian Indian who was, uh, working for the independence of, uh, the Indians and Indians even though he was in Glasgow. And uh and uh uh I remember he,

00:34:03.400 - 00:34:23.270

he, he, he probably was part of influencing the media along this line because Glasgow has also had for years and years the Labour Party has been strong and they uh they they they they talk of themselves there as socialists. Rather than just, they don't just, they,

00:34:23.850 - 00:34:44.910

they don't always, they most of the country, they say I'm a Labour Party member. In that area they consider themselves being the Labor Party, you're saying you're a socialist. And they even use that word and you announce your meetings as a socialist answer to the housing

00:34:44.910 - 00:35:09.850

problem, a socialist answer to the transportation problem. So I, uh, I would, uh, I was a socialist from that time on and still am, but you had a good background, yeah, well, you know, I also ended, I, I, I, I, the in in Britain in the

00:35:09.850 - 00:35:30.080

Second World War, the, the, the conscientious objectors were treated pretty well as compared to the United States. They, they, they were sent and worked in the forest camps. And if I remember right, they, they got the same as I got a shilling an hour. I, I

00:35:30.080 - 00:35:48.120

worked in this, uh, as a, I got hurt on the ship and the, uh, I went up there, the, the, up there for recreation at the same time make some, some money. And these were by and large, they were religious socialists and they were pacifists. They

00:35:48.120 - 00:36:03.830

refused to fight in the war. And the, uh, uh, there I, I, I'm, I'm sure they, I know they had a tremendous influence on me and, uh, uh, I, I remember they'd have debates at nighttime. This was out in the camp, there was nothing to do.

00:36:04.070 - 00:36:22.580

They'd have debates, uh, and I just sit there with my mouth open listening to these guys debating. You know, it's obviously the socialist part, uh, rubbed off well, but the religious part didn't take, uh, uh, but they were really, uh, but they were really interesting people.

00:36:23.520 - 00:36:48.810

But you had somebody to, um, as a, a, a wall to toss ideas. That was quite remarkable. Yeah, well, you know, I, I, I think that Well, I don't know about girls, but I think young men. About 1413, 1415, maybe it's a little late in the

00:36:48.810 - 00:37:12.120

United States, they go. I think they even they they turned to religion. They certainly turned they started they turned to To find the solution to a need that they have on on uh uh uh. Of trying to establish a philosophy for their morals and principles to

00:37:12.120 - 00:37:36.210

guide them. When you break I was a Catholic, so but At that time, my interpretation of Catholicism was so rigid. That it was impossible to be a good Catholic and at that age you're becoming sexually active and the church says, of course you can't while you're

00:37:36.210 - 00:38:04.020

single. So I think that the giving up religion had to be replaced by something. I think that's what socialist philosophy does. Uh, it, uh It replaces that religious need that I think we all have, not religious need and the belief of God, but of looking for.

00:38:05.140 - 00:38:23.130

Principles and morals and ideals that you could lifting right to to your life and but you were fortunate that you found it at the right time for you right yeah right yeah came along yeah. You know But that, no, I'm not sure if it's unusual. It's

00:38:23.130 - 00:38:40.730

like men and women get together. You, you, uh, the, the, uh, uh, some strange people get together and uh I always say to my wife that, well, they unconsciously knew what they were looking for. We were talking about, uh, two friends, acquaintances of ours, and she

00:38:40.730 - 00:38:57.050

lives with, uh, he's dead now, so, but up until he died. Uh, it got to the point where she was, uh, living 2 or 3 days with him and the rest of the time in her apartment. Well, he was an alcoholic, uh, beat her up, and,

00:38:57.150 - 00:39:13.430

uh, you know, drove her son from the home, you know, she should have left and by all logic, but, uh, obviously he fulfilled the need for hers and. They, uh, they managed to find each other. Well, I, I can, there's other people like that. I among

00:39:13.430 - 00:39:30.510

our, our acquaintance and I'm sure yours, and you, you often say to you, you wonder why they stick to what does it mean to them? Yeah, but, uh, did you come? So anyway, my point is that you, you, you, you, you, you, you, you, you do,

00:39:30.590 - 00:39:48.800

you, I think unconsciously you look for these answers, you, you, you know, and, uh, and if you look, you'll find. Yeah, so then all your experiences after that were directing you in this fashion, weren't they, so that you, this was your life work with unions, but

00:39:48.800 - 00:40:15.500

more than just an ordinary union person. I mean you, you were interested in the politics, philosophy of it. Um Were there other, now, you retired. When did you retire? I think it would be 2 years ago, election day. November 3rd. The 2nd was probably the 3rd

00:40:15.500 - 00:40:42.930

or the 2nd of November. Why did you retire? Well, obviously, uh, we, we, we figured that, uh, financially we, we could do it. That, that was, uh, when that was established, then, um, The work had become dull. The, uh, it was no longer interesting, uh, boring.

00:40:43.310 - 00:41:06.640

Uh, the labor, the, the local union had moved over to the Oakland, uh, uh, International Airport right on the edge of it, uh. From Bryan Street. And it was an hour each way, you know, so I was I stopped, declined going to the to union meetings.

00:41:07.980 - 00:41:37.950

And the work became dull and lost really interested in those who didn't have the passion for it. Seem to be any problems to be solved. and even there's no very little new technology coming into pile driving. And so there was therefore no new problems. Mm. There

00:41:37.950 - 00:41:53.270

was always so many other things you could be doing and uh well you have a wide range of interests, but I was interested in um you say that it was dull and that was because there was nothing new coming up and before it was still all

00:41:53.270 - 00:42:09.930

new for you see the one of the that I worked on a on a rig that was on water so you're always dealing with winds and currents. Uh, which is a constant changing, uh, thing, and, uh, but even after a while that, that became, uh, you

00:42:09.930 - 00:42:40.280

know, that was what held it for a long time, uh, beyond, uh, the, uh. The lack of change in technology. be precise because it's on water and because I always Feel close to water. But uh, in spite of that, it, uh, became boring. Hm. And Yeah,

00:42:40.390 - 00:43:04.560

and then The, uh, the, uh, even the guys on the job, uh, uh, uh, they weren't interested in the union and, uh, the, uh, the, half of them voted for Reagan, uh. Uh. And it did it well, came down. I needed I needed a change, yeah,

00:43:04.710 - 00:43:24.560

so the passion was gone from that, uh-huh, so. Well, that would be, uh, that, that would be one reason why the memberships, I would think, would be going down. There just isn't a job is a job. Right, yeah. Mm So a little warm. Are you, I'm

00:43:24.560 - 00:43:49.220

kind of warm. Are you? Oh, all right, I'll just, I'll end it. I just, uh, open up the door. Yeah, fine. But then after that, you went on some interesting trips. Now, when I first met you, you had recently come back from Nicaragua. Nicaragua. Yeah. So,

00:43:49.470 - 00:44:16.680

the same, Passion and the same interest. Um-hum. In the, You're human beings. The welfare of the human beings still exists. Oh yeah, yeah, yeah, I, I haven't changed. But you found new avenues. Right, right, yeah. And uh You know, essentially, uh, you might say for the

00:44:16.680 - 00:44:39.980

defense of Nicaragua, the, for the defense of the, uh, the right of the existence of, uh, Nicaragua is the main interest today. Um But all the time that you were working and you went to work when you were 14, you've been continuing your education. Yeah, yeah,

00:44:40.000 - 00:44:59.740

they're all gonna see you. You've got 16 hours you can read. You can get nearly 8 hours of reading in a day. Yeah, but what were you reading? I mean, who, who directed your reading? Oh, that was, that was very haphazard, uh, um. Uh, I suppose

00:44:59.740 - 00:45:17.530

part of it was sheer luck, uh, the, uh, the, uh, books that were put on by the library, there was a There was a uh Maritime library or something I think it's down on the Embarcadero. So they, they, they were the, uh, the, the, and I

00:45:17.530 - 00:45:37.590

remember the first conscious, uh, left wing book I, uh, I bought, uh, and it was, uh, the speeches by the French revolutionist, um. Roast beer Yeah, I had it for years and years and I, I then I lost it. Uh, that was a, I think I

00:45:37.590 - 00:46:01.330

bought it up in Seattle, uh, uh. And then then of course I I I I'd read the The, the, uh, the, the, the Marxist literature subsequently, Marx Engels, Lenin, Trotsky. And uh Now who were you able to discuss these things with on the on the boat?

00:46:01.670 - 00:46:21.040

Oh, there was always somebody, yeah, there was, um, uh, uh, from the right to the extreme left was, uh, there was always somebody on the ship that was, it was never dull on ships. Uh, there was always some interesting people and, uh, always some political people

00:46:21.150 - 00:46:53.480

on. Mm And uh there's always been socialists and communists on the waterfront uh and uh you keep running across them. Access and access and people going from one organization to another organization. And they're still around. I, I. All my old friends are the ones who come

00:46:53.480 - 00:46:57.060

from the sea, come to think of it. Yeah