00:00:02.349 - 00:00:17.079

That's what I'm gonna do. I'm gonna put mine on here. Either of us says something memorized. Exactly. If I can just uh uh you need to that down there, but there is one more down there. Yeah, that's the thing that I, I try to do sometimes,

00:00:17.090 - 00:00:30.409

you know, when, when like with me, for example, I learned my lesson, you know, we got into not an interview but to, to give me uh you know who to look up names and stuff. And before you know it, I mean, all this information was coming

00:00:30.420 - 00:00:49.000

out that even she wasn't there where it was gonna come out. And so that's essentially the way I visualized this morning. I, I don't think that we should shoot for a full interview. No, no, just get exactly basic, you know, basic stuff. And then as we

00:00:49.029 - 00:01:03.900

go along in our chat here, things do come up. However, I do look forward to uh going into more depth with you. Yes, me too. After, after you had a chance to go through this. So yes, I was very happy that you got that. I was

00:01:03.909 - 00:01:17.989

a matter of fact, with uh with Hank I mean, with Bill, I also wanted to follow up, I've been just kind of getting acquainted with people because I want to do a thorough job as possible. Well, let's go into a little bit of background. Uh, how

00:01:18.000 - 00:01:36.540

long have you been on this project? Ok. I, uh, this project in a sense, started in 19 uh 79. Um, when I say in a sense, it's because it was at that point in time in my life that I decided to do it. A matter of

00:01:36.550 - 00:01:56.660

fact, what, what brought it about was that uh I was asked to be part of the nominating process with the Nobel Prize uh literature for here. And so, uh as I came to grips with uh with him and his work kind of struck me and I

00:01:56.669 - 00:02:08.300

said, this is my letter to the Abel Price community and he says, you know, it's really not possible and a two page letter because they only wanted a page and a half at most. And I had already gone on two pages and this impossible in a

00:02:08.309 - 00:02:23.330

two page letter for me to really do justice to this man, his ideas and putting he works and so forth. And that I think he deserves at least two volumes, you know, and as I was writing it, it kind of hit me after I wrote the

00:02:23.339 - 00:02:39.169

letter and sent it in, you know, what I'm going to do? At least one of those volumes, at least the first volume. So I talked to him about it. And as you know, Ernie, he uh very, very modest and very humble. He was very, very reticent.

00:02:39.179 - 00:02:53.910

And, and he told me Carlos, he says, I'm not that important of a person. He says, um I really, I think you would be wasting your time. So don't even bother matter of, he wanted nothing to do with the Nobel Prize thing. It was, it was

00:02:53.919 - 00:03:09.460

basically, you know, May and some of us were friends of his, they were pushing him to uh to do this. And then finally I said to him, well, look, you know, you're really a very important person to me and he, I consider him a mentor, by

00:03:09.470 - 00:03:28.550

the way, just look back, when did you first? I met him in 1968 68 and I was a first year graduate student in political science and um very active in the, in the Chicano struggle in East Los Angeles. Matter of fact, I had just been in

00:03:28.559 - 00:03:44.199

jail prior to meeting him, I was a student leader at the time. What university did you go? I was going to Cal State University in Los Angeles, which is a state college to university. And I was a leader of a student group there. And we organized

00:03:44.210 - 00:04:06.279

a series of student strikes in the ghetto schools, b schools there demanding their education for our kids and so forth. So very non violent. Very definitely along the lines of Martin Luther King Jrc. I was a so 13 of us, however, were indicted for conspiracy to

00:04:06.289 - 00:04:24.339

disturb the peace and experience and to destroy the eighties L A city school education system. It's ridiculous stuff. But this was at the time of the Coins pro the FBI stuff that was going on. I found out later through both documents, but this is how we

00:04:24.350 - 00:04:44.410

got the rest of plus it was a, it was an election year during number 68. And the district attorney Abel younger was very ambitious in looking at the position of attorney general for the state. So all these things put together. So in 68 Ernie was, he

00:04:44.420 - 00:05:04.359

was in L A, right? He was working at the uh Eyo A remember. Yeah. Right. So we met and uh um you know, I, I had porcelain on it before and um but we met and right off the bat, it was very inspirational, the kind of

00:05:04.369 - 00:05:14.510

guy that he was, I mean, my God. So here I was a young kid, you know, uh well, relatively young. I was a veteran. I was the youngest. So I could have been one of the kids, but I was a young kid. I was a little

00:05:15.160 - 00:05:31.980

27 years and he really impressed me. And I says, you know, he made me understand the fact that this process is a political struggle. It's not nothing overnight, it's nothing where you go out there and you are protesting the war in corporate rather, it's a all

00:05:32.010 - 00:05:46.730

the brains process, something that takes a lot of time. And, um, at that time I was just doing the ma I was the first year grad student doing because, you know, they don't have phd S at the State University. So then, um, he told me about

00:05:46.739 - 00:06:00.429

his, the fact that he got his phd in political science as well, calling me back. And this is one, I didn't know that we Mexicans can do these kinds of things, you know, because we have been, they have been jumping into our mind that we were

00:06:00.440 - 00:06:12.640

intellectually inferior, you know, and that we didn't really have what it take, what it took. So he didn't tell me to go for the phd because as, you know, he never pursued an academic career, you know, he was very critical of the university as a matter

00:06:12.700 - 00:06:25.989

of fact. And so he, he wasn't the guy that told me, well, yeah, go ahead and go ahead and become a political. But he nevertheless gave me the idea, you know, it's possible, you know, no matter the background that we have in terms of our poverty

00:06:26.000 - 00:06:42.910

or in terms of whatever that we can do these kinds of intellectual things. And so I started thinking seriously about it and I make a lot so short of pain, the P and the P IP. Where did you go I got at the Claremont Graduate school.

00:06:45.500 - 00:07:02.929

Is that right? I, I found out later in my research for the book, I just finished, I did my, I did a chapter on the twenties and the thirties amongst youth of Mexican descent. And the struggle I came across to Ernie's name and I did research

00:07:02.970 - 00:07:19.070

in his archives at Stanford. This is way back when and I came across the fact that he taught at Claremont for once. He was 202 as a visiting professor. Way back in 43 I didn't realize that. But uh so I went to Claremont and, and now

00:07:19.079 - 00:07:44.920

this is my 16th year in the UC system of teaching. Well, you, I've already interviewed a number of key people. I, I had made a little list here suggestions. Um Where is he now? New York? Did you juggle back there? No, no, I've talked to him

00:07:44.929 - 00:07:58.929

on the phone and I was, I'm planning to travel, by the way, I'm planning, I'm putting together what I hope will, will come off uh you know, for some money for me to get some travel money. So I granted you some travel money and because I

00:07:58.940 - 00:08:15.869

mean, I want to interview other people. Now, he coincidentally is coming out here uh next month I, I got to call him and make sure he's still coming out. He told me he was coming out to visit uh Bill Becker. Uh And uh so I need

00:08:15.880 - 00:08:30.989

to get in touch with him to sort of find out for him. And thank you if he's coming. If he doesn't come that, then I definitely want to go out there and personally, but we corresponded and uh we have, uh, you know, been in touch. And

00:08:31.000 - 00:08:46.640

so, uh I'm just, uh you know, I want to also go and interview Mitchell, you know, you haven't met him yet. We've been corresponding uh mitch And, uh, and I, for several months now he's been sending all kinds of stuff. I think I've gotten at least

00:08:46.650 - 00:09:03.330

twice as much order from every day in the mail. I read something comes in Carlos, take a look at this. Oh, you're in, you're in good shape. Yeah. And so he's really been really helpful and, uh, but uh so, yeah, you know, if Hank does come

00:09:03.340 - 00:09:22.280

out next month and at least this one major interview that I know now, uh I have, uh lost touch with Jim Murray. I don't know if he's still around. I haven't gotten to him but I will. He's alive and well, very doing very well. As a

00:09:22.289 - 00:09:36.309

matter of fact, may and him keep in touch and I'm, I'm, I'm gonna be in touch. I'm trying to, you know, get the people that are harder to get at first. Well, last I heard he was living near t, yeah, that should be. Yeah, it's pretty

00:09:36.320 - 00:09:51.200

easy. That's what I'm saying. So, you know, he's there in Tran and I don't have to worry about him finding him and so forth. Uh, so I, I have him on my next, my next visit list and he's a real key actor in more than one

00:09:51.210 - 00:10:12.789

because, you know, he not only was involved with you guys, uh, during those years but also he kept in touch over the years with very close to my, that, you know, he was always there for him, advice and other things. It's very important. But how about

00:10:12.799 - 00:10:29.489

the, uh, a couple of Padres mcdonald and mccullum? Yeah, I just learned about them. I interviewed Herman Gallegos. Did you know Herman? Oh, sure. Yeah. And Herman told me about those two pads and so I got the names down and so forth. Do you have any

00:10:29.570 - 00:10:52.469

like phone numbers? Well, the last I heard and here again, I must confess I have, uh, and kind of, uh, drifting, uh, for the last several years. The last I heard mcdonnell was the pastor of the Guadalupe Broadway in San Francisco. Evident he's still there according

00:10:52.479 - 00:11:12.500

to Herman. That's, and the last I heard, Father mccullough was with the, uh Oakland Diocese out in Brent. Hm. Now that one, he didn't know, but let me put that down some place out there in the East coast County. Is that MC? And in Capital Cullough?

00:11:15.289 - 00:11:33.489

Ok, open down soon. And Brent, would you say? Well, I go to the Oakland Diocese and sure they can find, for me that's the main thing. Or if he's been transferred elsewhere, they would probably know where. Yes, his first name was again. Thomas Thomas. Right. This

00:11:33.500 - 00:11:57.770

is in my book. Yes. Problem. This is a book here. That, oh, yeah. Right. Yeah, I remember now. I, I really enjoyed reading that I used to do in my class. As a matter of fact, I was wondering why I occasionally got a 15 cents. I

00:11:57.780 - 00:12:08.630

haven't used it more recently because I, I was teaching this, I don't teach this course anymore. I was teaching at Irvine. I used to use it all the time when I was teaching there. I taught there from 70 to 76. And this is when I really

00:12:08.640 - 00:12:22.979

used it a lot. I have a course there on the farm workers and politics. I thought politics and agribusiness or something like that. And every year the Juber Society was acting like, you know, they calling me a communist and all that, you know, and that's when

00:12:22.989 - 00:12:42.969

I used it a lot. And recently I haven't used it because I haven't been teaching that course anymore. But I, you know, I still keep a little hand there in my book case. How about uh Ernie's daughters? Yes, I've talked to both. Well, you are in

00:12:42.979 - 00:13:06.859

good shape and you say that his archives or at ST, at ST rather than that, uh his home. Well, I, yeah, I've spent all summer at his home going through his personal papers if he didn't donate to stamp. So she made all that available to me.

00:13:08.000 - 00:13:27.049

And I, like, you know, like I did think to very exciting stuff. Oh, you are? Sure. Yeah. But the only thing that I haven't lucky enough with his spin correspondence, you know, letters he had, he wrote a lot to people. He kept in touch but he

00:13:27.059 - 00:13:42.200

never kept copies of those letters. So, what I'm trying to do is to get people, you know, to look for those letters that they might have of him, letters to him and to him. No, no. See that another thing he, he do too much about, he

00:13:42.210 - 00:13:56.820

wouldn't keep too much correspondence. Huh? I haven't found, I found some, don't get me wrong, you know. But, uh, I know there's got to be a lot more than that and there must have been a lot over the years but, you know, may said that he

00:13:56.830 - 00:14:13.250

just withdrew, keep a good prank and for such a scholarly type person, you know, I thought he was going to have a little bit better system, you know. But it's been, he didn't have anything at all organized at all. Just kind of just, you know, dumped

00:14:13.349 - 00:14:30.929

up and filed. Sounds like, sounds like my files as long as you got them, you know, that's the main thing I call them files. They just boxes, boxes, you have activist, you know, background and, you know, it's hard and I know that I did myself, you

00:14:30.940 - 00:14:52.510

know, being an activist, uh, it's hard for one to sit down in the midst of a lot of going on. Right. And think about these things. Yeah, I heard that neither one of us had a secretary. Well, have you, uh, have you got a contract? Not

00:14:52.530 - 00:15:13.210

yet. No. What I'm doing now is basically just a research part. Uh, then I want to do a chapter and then try to get me a contract. So right now I've, I've been asked by Stanford University to do a four page, the biographical sketch of him

00:15:13.239 - 00:15:33.789

for in her first time, the retraces, his started this year, the first scholar to be invited to lecture was a medical bent. And I, you know, he's been around for a long time, very distinguished time. And so he's going to have his lecture published and I

00:15:33.880 - 00:15:59.309

want to have him by Africa Peace. And then I've been asked for occidental college to do an article for their magazine, that magazine. So those two pieces are sort of beginning, you know, I've done already a keynote address. It's a, it's ta and an Marxist imposing.

00:16:01.340 - 00:16:19.859

That's your problem. And that was more a speech. It wasn't, you know, written for publication, but you get the idea of what I'm trying to. Yeah. So all these things put together, I hope you have a first chapter sometime about the first of the year. And

00:16:19.869 - 00:16:47.030

then the end to, you know, submit that perspective. Well, maybe Stanford University Press might be larger than Columbia University. On the other hand, the academic presses uh, don't have as good a distribution system. Do they provide you with more new resources compared to a commercial publish?

00:16:47.669 - 00:17:03.179

So I have a taste of another thing. That's true. They wouldn't sponsor you on a nationwide. Exactly. A talk show or, or for that matter, game in advance that and see if I don't get this grant that I, uh, well, I, I've submitted for a postdoctoral

00:17:03.190 - 00:17:13.310

fellowship. It's a hell of a hard thing for me to do because number one, this is a labor of love for me. You know, it's not, uh you know, first of all, I'm not the retired type of academic anyway, or, you know, you were be for

00:17:13.319 - 00:17:26.819

a while, you know, and I just can't stand that. So I, um this is why I'm in ethnic studies, by the way, not in political science department because in ethnic studies, I have more, more freedom to do my own thing. I can be an activist scholar

00:17:26.829 - 00:17:38.829

there as opposed to being, but um I get turned off with having to put these proposals in nowadays and say, well, how, what is this, what is it going to do to your career? Uh Is this a career development thing or, you know, where does it

00:17:38.839 - 00:17:55.439

fall into the, into the uh discipline? You know, what countries it's going to make the discipline, you know, I don't do that. Your department doesn't have any travel funds. No. And so my concern here is that what I put in for this post doc? I, I

00:17:55.449 - 00:18:10.500

told you the Ford Foundation, it's a National Research Council with Ford Foundation and I missed it by one or two points that I was told was $26,000 which is, you know, way below my salary. It would have been a sacrifice, but I wasn't going to do

00:18:10.510 - 00:18:31.729

it. Yeah. What are you doing? So, the bottom line is what I understood from the feedback that I got on this particular biographies are not the thing that they're doing. People are looking for public policy, things, quantitative research and, you know, things that the people in

00:18:31.739 - 00:18:46.680

power that they have, you know, and so forth. So what I'm trying to say is that with Herman Gallego says he's trying to help me get some money from his connections, you know, he's a trustee. So hopefully he'll deal with, I can get some kind of

00:18:46.689 - 00:19:05.369

a research man next year to take off all year. Oh, you say you wouldn't, you wouldn't try to combine teaching and. Well, no, I would like to tell you just constant, completely honest, you know, I feel, I feel uh urgency because of me when I primarily

00:19:05.380 - 00:19:20.209

she's 84 years old. Yes. How's her health? She's doing good, but she's getting tired. She tells me but she's, she's health and, you know, I'm gonna give him the book to her and I would love to get it finished before she passes up. Sure. That's my

00:19:20.219 - 00:19:39.160

main urgent, you know, that, that's how I felt in my collaboration with London. Um So she's still a 1031 frame kid that's taste to me. So if I could just get this whole year off and just concentrate, get all the research done, you know, get everything

00:19:39.170 - 00:20:01.680

done being the first, got to the book now that I'd be in good shape, just be sw it is your PP MA let me see. Well, if, uh if you, if you know a trustee of the Rockefeller Foundation, well, yeah, you don't need, you don't need

00:20:01.689 - 00:20:14.400

any letters from me, I think. Well, on the other hand though, see that don't, don't minimize it because now that you mention it, I hadn't thought about it, but it might not be a bad idea from the point of view of being a comrade of his,

00:20:14.410 - 00:20:30.390

you know, having worked with him and having someone from your angle present a letter saying this man was important, you know, an important historical figure. I, I worked with him. I can attest the fact that the biography, you know, would be something valuable to have of

00:20:30.400 - 00:20:42.609

this market, something that well, and I would also have to say something about uh you are the fellow to do it. Exactly. Right. Yeah. That would be the other thing too. Probably. Yeah. But that, that would be a good idea. Let me ask her about that.

00:20:45.030 - 00:21:05.520

Would you be willing to, uh, wonderful. That would be great. That's a great idea. Maybe I could also ask, uh, and that a w which, because, you know, again, the problem with these guys back east according to her name is he, he's, you know, he's been

00:21:05.530 - 00:21:18.010

very cautious by the way and I would have expected for him to say, oh, yeah, I can get you at least this much. But he's, he's been very cautious because he says that they still haven't discovered us. Back east Mexicans are still an invisible minority. I

00:21:18.020 - 00:21:32.839

mean, it's, it's all very black oriented. So, and of course, what I'm, you know, the book that I'm doing, uh Ernie was not just a Mexican, he went beyond the, you know, the ethnic importance. I mean, no doubt about it as an important person because he

00:21:32.849 - 00:22:02.800

was of Mexican descent. But this is a biography of an American intellectual labor needs the important person beyond me. But that's what I want to, my book to, of course, the uh the Ford Foundation, right? Yeah. And I just heard from um a guy in the

00:22:02.810 - 00:22:31.390

name of ESK, yes, a Harvard professor was on the four foundation at the time. He helped her in terms of the first one. But over the years, you know, the four foundation or some kind of split in as soon as they were. I mean, it, it

00:22:31.400 - 00:22:55.849

was not a harmonious relationship. I mean, that's why they wouldn't let me see the original manuscript. Well, as I understand it, strangers in our field was a boiled down version of a very, very much longer manuscript which he wrote for the Ford Foundation. Uh probably several

00:22:55.859 - 00:23:16.569

100 pages with lots and lots of more photographs than me published version. So I went back to New York City and to obviously like Christ, my word name, but you never see it. You know, I had the same problem with the Pan American Union. I was,

00:23:16.579 - 00:23:36.219

I was back in Washington DC. I had to go and argue my case with a Philadelphia lawyer to get access to one file. They just wouldn't, they had a, they had a two page legal document for me to sign and I read it carefully and there

00:23:36.229 - 00:24:07.229

were 22 items that I just couldn't tell me one was that I had to adhere to their conditions otherwise they would sue me. Yeah. Well, speaking of sticky wicket, uh I think that in order to, uh, kept a, uh, complete picture, you ought to try to

00:24:07.239 - 00:24:25.800

talk to some, uh, people in the A fl cio. Yes. Thank you. Who, uh, did not hear a worship her. Exactly. Ok. I do want to do that very. Um, now, here again, I've lost touch with all of almost all of these games. I don't know

00:24:25.810 - 00:24:53.310

if they're still alive and if they are, they are all certainly td that would be an advantage because then they would be free to speak their minds. Um, there's, uh, Jack Livingston who is the director of organization. Mhm. During the, uh, a Walker Franz Daniel was

00:24:53.319 - 00:25:30.780

the assistant director of, ehm. I spent a lot of time much starting early phases of brief period in which he was with. They were, I'm sure that their files would be closed to you. Well, I've got a lot of that stuff. Oh, great. Uh, and I

00:25:30.790 - 00:25:58.150

was leave it xerox or a lot of stuff, uh, in the hopes that it might come in handy some day. What year did you do? 62 bringing it over, left by him. He resigned in 1960. Uh and that will be the kind of thing which I

00:25:58.160 - 00:26:35.489

hope we can go into. Sure. Next time we talk good. Ok. Just people. They were liberal and church groups and back east to, uh, for better or for worse and played a very prominent role in, uh, d struggling little movement as it existed in 19 fifties.

00:26:35.939 - 00:26:59.510

And, uh, and it was largely through the efforts of peace, do gooders or however you like. Sure, good. That, uh, the A FL cio eventually came up with a substantial amount of money. $250,000 to start with, uh, to form this, uh, agriculture workers organizing committee which

00:26:59.520 - 00:27:23.020

of course, one breakthrough that finally arrived and who we've been hoping for for so many years. And now let me think if I can remember some of their names. There was a woman named Faye Bennett has pop up in my research, who was the executive director

00:27:23.030 - 00:27:56.439

of the National Sharecroppers Fund and also something called the National Advisory Committee on Farm Labor. Is she still alive here? Now? I don't know. Or, uh, she, I was married to a gentleman by the name of Roland Watts, who was an attorney. I strongly suspect that

00:27:59.530 - 00:28:33.810

tired and I think they had a country place in. We find now the, uh, the National Sharecroppers Fund still exists and they give, mhm. The name has changed and so on. Share Croppers, right. What was, well, I can, I can, I can do. Ok. And that

00:28:34.040 - 00:29:08.599

might think forward. So, yes. The eastern, the pro this for, and you too special packed. Um, that Gardner. No, I think he's done. Yeah, he's done. I'm trying to locate his widow. May, thinks that she's still alive when I was in DC this summer. So she

00:29:08.609 - 00:29:43.359

might have been some, she might move out. The, was that to find her primarily? I'm hoping that she's got, you know, had some find then another class of persons. Uh, it leads to would be the, uh, field organizers who are trained. Um We never achieved any

00:29:43.369 - 00:30:19.390

fame or notoriety but we were the, or troops on the line and no one. Where are you going to I now, but I can remember the name from this star like the L doctor. Yeah, mate told me about him and the Espera in San Jose. Sure

00:30:28.180 - 00:31:11.880

de wit Tannehill in Yuba City. Tan tt A nneh. I, what's anything you say? You? I have to make some notes to myself. I sure. Um with a little more digging I could come up to support. Here's another group which uh didn't see eye to eye.

00:31:13.459 - 00:31:47.719

So, and that would people from the United Packing House workers, they of course, have this uh jurisdictional dispute which I love this so much feeling and which I thought was so unfortunate because I think it was largely unnecessary. But that again, we can talk about uh

00:31:50.449 - 00:32:30.010

I don't think the upw A exists anymore but uh some of the names there with me like Clive Knowles Joe Oman to help out. How about how about the people in the Department of Labor and who, who administered the settle? Wow, that would be great, you

00:32:30.130 - 00:32:59.760

know. Yeah, his sworn enemies there again, they would, I'm sure all be about his retirement age. And uh so while they, while they were in the public office, they, I'm sure and opened up with you. Oh, gosh, there was a guy named Glenn Brockway who was

00:32:59.770 - 00:33:46.300

the regional director San Francisco Brockow. I and HD Huxley Harold how Norton, these were all the uh uh these were all the, the regional office or the, the Bureau of Employment Security was a branch of the Department of Labor. Ok. Not that. Hm. Explanation. And then

00:33:46.310 - 00:34:27.409

there were others back in Washington DC and Robert Goodman. That one Don Lean was his assistant Larin. He wound up out here in Sacramento running the state uh fire placement service villain among villains. The largest that his but see head of the state farm placement service

00:34:27.729 - 00:34:57.300

until he was fired and purpose the head of the Imperial Valley Growers Association, whether he's still around down in the appear. Oh, he hated the larger. So I don't. Yeah. Well, you never know. We'll try it anyway. And another one that I'm trying to get our

00:34:57.310 - 00:35:16.120

interview with Nixon. Oh, all right. Well, I don't know if I can do it but I'm trying. Oh, he seems to, he, he'll talk to anybody. You, it's so long as you pay. Yeah. Right. Right. Right. I can't promise him any payment. But I, you know,

00:35:16.270 - 00:35:33.370

it's a historical figure. Right. He's intrigued. And I being quoted again, I wonder if he still has any memories of the forties? Well, you never know, but at least maybe he's got some papers on somewhere way back when I'm sure there was a lot of, a

00:35:33.469 - 00:35:56.500

lot of discussion about any of those days. The Nixon, the committee there, the Nixon library. Yeah, Nixon library. Right. So, I'm, I'm gonna give it a crack, any way she wants as far as the government trials under the freedom of information at home, you could get

00:35:56.510 - 00:36:11.620

access to anything. Right. That's what I want it in. I mean, I've gotten, you know, thousands of guns already so I've become quite a, quite adapt yet, however, you know, they really tightened up my heart. Oh, yeah. A matter of fact, it was one of Reagan's

00:36:11.629 - 00:36:31.149

major concerns before he knew on is to get rid of the. Yeah, everything that I've gotten recently over the more recent years has been just about all blacked out. You get a document yet you see the names and then everything else is all black. I didn't

00:36:31.159 - 00:37:05.840

realize. Yeah. Yeah. So, so much more information. Right. Well, let me uh through this. Oh, by the way, before we get an uh Lipow says hi. What's she doing? She's still at the library of Berkeley. I saw her two days ago. I was coincidentally I bumped

00:37:05.850 - 00:37:20.659

into her. I went to this faculty, a research seminar. I finally broke down and I did on the computer while they can inform me to those. So they have these seminars to teach fabric and how to use those things and so forth and how to use

00:37:20.669 - 00:37:42.629

library references in there. I would have been trying to track down hell rape her. And so she helped me and I told her my love, I don't think hell they well and Draper did very well. But uh and, I don't know, I hope that he did

00:37:42.639 - 00:38:02.409

but you may be right. You know, but what I'm hoping, at least in a way is maybe he might have his wife's correspondence. Ok. Anyway, I just wanted to say hi to pro God. Well, thank you very much. Anybody else you have already talked to that,

00:38:02.429 - 00:38:18.510

uh, that I might remember. Well, I'm sure it must be. I, I've talked to so many people now. Uh I've been getting back to the original question. When did I start this, uh, the real, you know, the actual, you know, research process begun last year. So

00:38:19.270 - 00:38:43.760

I've been at it now without it trying to locate people and talking to, I spend a lot of time with his sister, Laura Lawson. She was, there's a cousin of his who lives in British, living in Europe on his mother's side. That's what I'm going to,

00:38:44.459 - 00:39:02.149

I'm going to try to do the family history first, put all that down and so forth the way I just have it just, and to find some feedback in the way of tentatively organized. The project is to go through the phases of his life and his

00:39:02.159 - 00:39:39.679

childhood filling the gaps of butter. Boy didn't quite get at, in terms of high school. It's college days, the station that many states, uh, you know, in Arizona. They, and I was crazy. No. Ok. Penny notes as in a biography, I think, uh, when he's up,

00:39:39.689 - 00:39:55.459

it just depends on what data you get. And there might be some sections or some pieces of his life, but I don't get enough to really, to justice. And that was my one to stop in that part of that. I was not, it doesn't want, you

00:39:55.510 - 00:40:15.850

know, open in terms of information. Do you have uh secretarial help? Not yet. Not yet. But I've been working on that too this year. This summer, I spend a lot of time I got all kinds of stuff, but I intend to, hopefully with this research plan

00:40:15.860 - 00:40:34.510

too, it will, you know, give me some money to hire a, as a student. Doesn't the department help me with that kind of thing? Incredible. Huh? They are just very tight. Uh, see Berkeley has become a real monstrosity. The only way you can hire people to

00:40:34.520 - 00:40:53.439

university, university project is a very outside, in a sense, you know, you have outside grants coming, but the departments themselves in terms of the budget is very limiting just in terms of curriculum, faculty. So I understand we get, I get every year through the academic, sending

00:40:53.449 - 00:41:15.209

about 90 $90 to do that in a too, which I can, I can use that to hire like a work studies student. But this year I used it instead to finance my travels to the state and other places. This Washington trip where I take here. But

00:41:15.219 - 00:41:35.620

for next year I need music to Empire system because I want, I thought that the university expected you to publish. They do they, do you expect to do it on your own? Isn't that something? It's ridiculous. It's really ridiculous. And like I said, you know, they

00:41:35.629 - 00:41:59.010

expect for you to get grants in the answer and it said, part of themselves. Well, they help out with little things here. I can't say it's completely, completely without any support to my book. You know, that, that helps sometimes we come up with uh Xerox and

00:41:59.979 - 00:42:20.080

that so documents you can run me, for example, the ant. So there's no problem with that. I was, you know, so as a matter of fact, it wasn't for that, it wasn't room stuff like the stuff that I've gotten from Maine and from Stanford. That's right.

00:42:21.959 - 00:42:45.899

But so that's, that's so it's not doing. On the other hand, you know, there is, there is need for more help, right? All right. Let's see what we got here. This trial is something that uh you probably have not obtained elsewhere. This is my personal correspondence

00:42:46.429 - 00:43:27.879

to and from Ernesto, this is what I need more of now. Here are some letters miscellaneous uh correspondence to and from uh Ernesto with persons other than myself doing great. They were tasty. Here are a variety of uh pieces of testimony which he delivered before various

00:43:28.570 - 00:43:53.280

bodies, some uh public hearings and some uh private symposium. Wonderful. Well, I mean, many of these, you may already have, but uh I suspect I might have some of those archives check those out for my application. I will check them. Here are a variety of writings

00:43:54.520 - 00:44:16.360

uh which are uh almost all mimeographs and they are not uh in other words, uh published. Well, a few published, but mostly he mimeographed them himself and uh sent them to the governor of the state who was with night, full time. And these are the so

00:44:16.370 - 00:44:42.389

called night letters so called night letters are all here. OK. I'm missing some of those. So I bet you. OK, various other pieces of research and essays which you real did a lot of times in his career, the joint US Mexico Trade Union committee was uh

00:44:42.399 - 00:45:18.479

nominating publisher of this very, very important little pamphlet. And here's a folder which includes some other materials from that committee. Went right up to the point at which he was has to resign. Now, this, I'm sure you have and much, much more. This is a material

00:45:18.489 - 00:45:45.040

from the uh National Agriculture Workers Union put. Yeah, I'm sure I got some of that. We do it carefully. OK. I'm, I'm to the point, I've learned my lesson. I never skipped by any doctor. I'm just, you know, a lot of times this is uh volume

00:45:45.050 - 00:46:10.360

two of an oral history by HL Mitchell which uh as far as I can figure was given in 1957 or 58. I think this was taken down at the University of North Carolina or some place like that and I've marked the portion at which he begins

00:46:10.370 - 00:46:26.300

talking about Larsa. Good. But you might have that from him. Well, you know, he's got a book out, you know, an autobiography to get sure of. So, but this is not something that they feel might not have been in that book. Well, that's right. So either

00:46:26.350 - 00:46:48.860

we can tell because in the rewriting and getting the publication, a lot of stuff is edited out and which to us is even more important. Perhaps. Now, these are letters to and from third parties include, uh, mostly, uh, figures.