00:00:01.809 - 00:00:22.139

So there is a, no, the Buddhist group is very strong here and they get together and help each other. There are about 3030 they came as family as well. I would like to see that. I, I'd rather see it works out very well. I came into

00:00:22.170 - 00:00:35.090

a funny situation. The Japanese Children are learning Spanish for the Mexicans and the Mexicans were learning Japanese. So they call me and say, can't you come out and teach these kids English? They're going to be going to school in the fall and they're learning each other's

00:00:35.099 - 00:00:53.950

language but not English and his family that he should go out. Have you suppose Mr Zuckerman would show? Oh, I think he would. Yeah, I think he would. Yeah, I think, I think the, the thing that uh uh now we, we have talked to those men

00:00:53.959 - 00:01:14.160

and uh uh I've talked to Zuckerman about uh organized labor and things like that. And uh he's convinced he, he, he, he's convinced that it's uh that it's not feasible to use American organized labor in, in the field work. Uh And he, but, but he still

00:01:14.169 - 00:01:28.069

uh will cooperated with you as long as he feels that you're not going to go out there and rile up the men or, you know, agitate problems or anything like that. Uh, uh, and I will say this much for, for, for Zuckerman that, uh, when the

00:01:28.080 - 00:01:45.449

men are out there they work. It's, it's, it's, it's different from many, a lot of other places. His men, his men work. Uh, I, I don't think he's got a good system out there. I told him that, uh, uh, but, uh, he, he's, he's, I think

00:01:45.459 - 00:02:02.099

he's willing to let you go out there and, you know, I, I am anxious to talk to all the principles involved. Yeah. To the Growers. I know I was talking to Alan Bayridge yesterday and he said that he introduced me to Duarty when he gets back

00:02:02.110 - 00:02:26.570

from a conference he's attending in Jamaica or something. Not present time. Dorothy is the executive secretary of the local association. I suppose that, uh, he'll talk with me, he'll, he'll talk to you. Yeah, Duarty. Uh, see Duarty knows very well what, what our position is on

00:02:26.580 - 00:02:45.179

this thing. He doesn't agree with us. Yeah, I know. Yeah. But, uh uh uh, but he will talk, I wish I personally would wish that people like the, or the Growers Association would make some statement. We try to get them to make some public statement, they

00:02:45.190 - 00:03:03.149

would make any statements. This is come up for a position, defend and a state of position and defend it. This is one of the things which struck us, particularly in our cloistered uh ivory towers of the university that very little is known about the roster program.

00:03:03.720 - 00:03:21.509

It doesn't find its way the public prints. And uh so far as we know, the lar of pamphlet is the only attempt so far at a piece of research concerning it and it wasn't uh complete, you know, and it was considered, considered irresponsible by, of course,

00:03:21.520 - 00:03:40.949

the whole other side, I'm sure it is. Yeah, many are finding them on their way to the Mexican papers and the Mexican background of it doesn't have some story about what happened. Uh II, I want to say this to get this down. What uh uh uh

00:03:42.630 - 00:04:03.860

I, we're convinced of this, that, that, that any group that comes uh interested in this thing is making a mistake if they aim particularly at things like low wages or serious abuses in the camps, like selling liquor or uh property stores and about housing inspection, even

00:04:03.869 - 00:04:17.855

housing inspection. Uh uh because uh I think we're making a mistake. There are some instances where it's very, or some camps are really miserable. But, you know, I think that the great majority of these men are in better housing than they've ever been in their lives.

00:04:17.864 - 00:04:35.890

And I think that people can undermine their whole argument if you come out and say, I don't think that's a viable argument. Well, the frame of reference is not absolutely sure. I agree with you 100% on that. Sure. But the point is, uh, uh, they say

00:04:35.899 - 00:04:52.200

they can say that and if, uh, they can then, and in many instances, the barracks will be as neat and as clean almost as an army back and particularly, and this is, but this is a problem of a big industrial farms and in many case, the

00:04:52.209 - 00:05:09.225

big farms are able to give much better housing and food and everything than the small farm. The situations and in many cases are, are very good from that point of view that the then they will say, and I think justifiably so they say that we turn

00:05:09.234 - 00:05:24.980

a clean barracks over to these men, clean barracks, clean beds, clean blankets, new, new mattresses, uh a clean outhouse or clean uh clean toilet facilities or something like that within a month, it looks like a pig stock and they say you're gonna blame us for that.

00:05:25.119 - 00:05:36.875

Do we have to hire 10 men to go in there and, and to keep this place clean even uh uh if we do have a janitor, it's all he can do. Like I know one of these camps, you see, and they have a janitor there trying

00:05:36.885 - 00:05:51.635

to keep it clean. Well, these fellows are not used to it and they're throwing things around. And uh they do have a, a point in, in that argument if we say that uh we would expect the uh Barrack situation always to be like an army barracks

00:05:51.644 - 00:06:10.100

clean. Uh Now, certainly, I think we can, we can say our frame of reference, this is American uh work, this is labor done in America. It's producing American wealth. And therefore the, the frame of reference should be American standard. But before we see the, the, the,

00:06:10.109 - 00:06:29.059

the uh the, the uncontestable thing is that uh you are uh uh uh making displaced people, you are, you are disrupting them from any kind of, uh, normal life, uh, or any, almost any possibility of a normal family life. Even if they were single men, you

00:06:29.070 - 00:06:43.269

mentioned bringing single men in from Mexico. Uh, what would you do if you brought these single boys? They, they would come up here and they would get used to, to, uh, having American dollars in their pocket and being able to come into town and, uh, uh,

00:06:43.489 - 00:06:58.929

having American clothes and having them clean and pressed. They could not go down to Mexico and get that same life. They can't get it here. The only way they can maintain themselves and the standards they get used to, even, even the substandard American. Uh, I mean,

00:06:58.940 - 00:07:16.940

they're substandard to American, uh, standards, but much over what they're used to down there. But they can only maintain that if they are living in barracks as single men. And so if they are going to get married, they have to then return to uh, some ranch

00:07:17.609 - 00:07:33.049

down in Mexico, that's the only place they could possibly get married. They couldn't stay here and get married. And if they've been working here for five or six years, say a young fellow has been working here for five or six years, uh, then he wants to

00:07:33.059 - 00:07:48.209

get married. He would have to give up this life and go on down there and go out to a ranch. Let me play the part of the devils. I read it for a moment. I'll give you an argument that I don't necessarily believe, but the one

00:07:48.220 - 00:08:11.959

that some people might read, um, let's assume that you, you did have a large number of unattached single Mexican males doing this work of, and they get good wages by the, um, Mexican stuff and, uh, become accustomed to our way of life as you have sketched

00:08:11.970 - 00:08:33.039

it. Um, and then they returned to Mexico, don't you think it's possible that perhaps these people with their newfound aspirations might and, and with the, the newfound money in their pocket, which they returned with, which would well not agreed amount would be substantial by Mexican decent

00:08:33.080 - 00:08:56.909

as, as, uh, is it not, is it not possible that these, uh, the core of, of, uh young men might providing a spirit for the modernization and industrialization and urbanization of Mexico, which is a trend that as I understand it is beginning slowly, um, and which

00:08:57.820 - 00:09:18.630

isn't receiving, uh, as much foreign investment as some people might like to see. And isn't it possible these people could provide a stimulus in that direction. I would say, yeah, if one condition they were kept organized and, uh, protected in some sort of an association, uh,

00:09:19.390 - 00:09:35.650

uh, I would say it could be done and it probably would be a very good thing for them then, uh, if they could be protected. But what we see happens even with the young THS is that there is a moral deterioration. Um, not only a moral

00:09:35.659 - 00:09:52.599

deterioration but a human deterioration of strength. They come and they get used to the prostitute, they get used to the dream and who's going to keep them from that. We take a bunch of American boys and put them into an army camp. If they don't have

00:09:52.609 - 00:10:09.070

strict supervision, what happen to them? You take a bunch of young fellow, take them away from their families, away from their social environment, throw them in a labor camp and within two years they're drunkard, they're irresponsible. They might have more money but they're not, they just

00:10:09.080 - 00:10:23.909

don't have it inside of them. They don't have the, uh, the discipline and the self control to do this job that, that we would like to see them do down there or be a spirit of force. They become, uh, the, uh, well, this last picture here,

00:10:27.020 - 00:10:44.500

that's what they become. That, that's what we see what happened. Now, if, if they could be if, at the very same time that they were coming up here, if there was some, uh, effective, uh, supervision and association whereby they could be protected from themselves and the

00:10:44.510 - 00:11:16.080

deterioration that would take place by just labor camp living, it could probably be a very good thing for that. Well, what would you say would be the number of people, most of them had maybe four or five of them, many of them can't read, most of

00:11:16.090 - 00:11:29.559

them can speak the language pretty well. About 40% of it I used to have, but this was way back. I think that the group coming up now is better. They've done, yeah, they've done things down there, you know, but the first groups end up beginning in

00:11:29.570 - 00:11:52.489

43. It wouldn't be unusual to have at least half the class in the room. And I wonder if there is any way in which you can organize and supervise and, and have these associations as you call them, whereby you can guarantee that a, a group is

00:11:52.500 - 00:12:05.229

going to learn what's good from another culture and not learn what I, I don't think it is and therefore I would, I would, I would say that, I don't think that that would be the way to do it. I don't think it would be successful. I

00:12:05.239 - 00:12:20.369

would say if they could do that. And that would be the, the thing, if they could have an association that would work, that would effectively be able to keep these fellows from deteriorating. I would say good, but I don't think it's possible myself. No, in Mexico,

00:12:21.059 - 00:12:35.500

when they take these young people from the village, you know, different and take them to Mexico City and teach them the language and what not expect them to go back and help the people in their village. What happens? They don't go back if they do go

00:12:35.510 - 00:12:49.989

back, they stay for just a while. They are used to Mexico City. They're not going to go back home and talk to me when I'm walking or whatever it is, if we had, if they were an army, a real army, but look at the trouble even

00:12:50.000 - 00:13:07.609

we have with our American boys in the army. Uh, uh, and I, I have known many instances where the army had been with these Mexican American Mexican kids from these, uh, barrios where their life is very, very unsettled and disturbing for them that the army is

00:13:07.619 - 00:13:18.940

the best thing in the world the first time in their life, they get some real discipline and they really have to do things which they didn't have to do before. And for many of them, you see them come back and, and they're more of a man

00:13:18.950 - 00:13:33.700

than they were when they left. But many of them, we know many, many boy, uh, the army doesn't affect them that way either. Uh, but, uh, I would say if we found that in in, in any kind of a program like an army that you could

00:13:33.710 - 00:13:47.849

train fellows. But then if they could have somewhat sort of a similar iii, I don't think it's advisable. I wouldn't suggest it. But if they were gonna have single boys, they would have to have something like that AC CC program. If they think they could do

00:13:47.859 - 00:14:09.500

it that way. I, I don't think they could. Ok, then let's uh return to the alternative. We started with um bringing the men's families with them. Uh Do you think that they, that this would provide the, they buffer against the deteriorating influences of our society which

00:14:09.510 - 00:14:27.359

are many pervasive? Uh Again, I would say on, on, on, on the condition, what, what the growers all would say is they, they say look at the uh terrible camp situations we had when we had families, the frightful uh migrant labor camps that they used to

00:14:27.369 - 00:14:41.640

have. And they would say if you start having uh shackling rovers with men, with families in camps, you're gonna just, they say it's gonna be a throwback weekday to say we can keep the single barracks cleaner than we can with family camps. But I would say

00:14:41.650 - 00:15:06.380

this again. Uh uh if these men were given a right or it was made truly possible for them to get into independent trade unions or, or, or labor unions uh uh whereby they, as a group would be able to uh affect the conditions of labor which,

00:15:06.390 - 00:15:26.469

which, uh, has regard to, uh, uh, uh, d, uh, amount of time that they work and wages and, and, uh, uh, in such a way that they could, uh, settle down then I think it, it would be good. I mean, I can't see any, I can't

00:15:26.479 - 00:15:46.640

see any, any, any solution to the thing without an organization of these working people. Uh, because, uh, if they, they would have to, to uh organize in such a way as to, to uh let the growers and let me see if I'm going to all around.

00:15:46.650 - 00:15:59.169

Let's see, the growers make one of the conditions of the uh one of the uh the positions of the growers is that we have these crops coming in all over and we need, we need workers and they say we don't know whether the worker is going

00:15:59.179 - 00:16:19.119

to show up or not. Uh We don't have any, we don't have any, any, any responsible labor force that we can bank upon. And this way we do get a responsible, well, if they had uh a group organized similar, for instance to your, to your trade

00:16:19.130 - 00:16:32.609

unions where you have all the crafts organized, then you had a contractor who dealt with them. You would have a body of men which you knew uh about that. You knew about uh you know, how many were there? You knew whether they were working or whether

00:16:32.619 - 00:16:50.400

they were not working, they had their representatives and their, and, and, and, uh, uh their own foreman, then the, the contractors in between the ranchers could deal with the, uh, laborers just like they do in the trade in the trade track. And in that way you

00:16:50.409 - 00:17:10.819

could have a beginning to have some stability. People would be just having, being alone, uh, moving from place to place like dark horses. I, uh, I have some questions on this point. We have one here. First Benny. Then if you, uh, the place is open. Yeah.

00:17:11.219 - 00:17:25.430

Yeah, then I'll be down there and we all fine because I got a boy down there making some benches. Ok. Fine. OK. Benny, I'll be down there. That was sort of, I know that was hectic around. No, I understand. I think I understand what you mean.

00:17:25.609 - 00:17:50.390

But doesn't this approach Presuppose a certain amount of experience in organized activity and have the people who would be coming up have this sort of background? I don't think they do. No, but I think, I think that we have enough poor American people. If, if, if,

00:17:50.400 - 00:18:06.800

if it were the, I think the unions would say right now that the, that the situation would be right for organization to feel labor. If it were not for the Bracero program, that makes it almost impossible because, uh, uh, they, they, they can hardly, uh, pressure,

00:18:07.239 - 00:18:28.750

they can hardly pressure any growers when the growers can, can bring in, bring in workers. The way they do. Uh If, if it became possible now to, to, to uh build up a union uh centered around America, uh people with the, then the uh that the

00:18:28.760 - 00:18:46.670

people who brought up were brought up from Mexico coming in and, and, and working around, working with them and around them. So, uh uh I, I think, I think we would, uh Garza says, and the unions say that they would not need a supplementary labor force

00:18:46.680 - 00:19:06.410

if conditions were such that American laborers could do it. II, I don't think I would agree with him completely on that. I think that we had seen in the expansion of industry. Certainly, we've seen it around here. We've seen uh the expanding industrial economy taking every

00:19:06.420 - 00:19:20.680

year more and more of, of our field laborers going into that. And uh it's true that many of them go into the marginal industries and if they could get a better take in agriculture, they would go back to agriculture. But nonetheless, they're in there, many of

00:19:20.689 - 00:19:38.349

them are in their state. And uh I think however, that, that we can sort of go halfway with them on that and say that uh uh we, we don't want anything resembling a colonial labor force, which is what the press thing is where it's people who

00:19:38.359 - 00:19:56.760

are living in a land, but like strangers in the land, uh who are doing the work. Uh But if, if we say, for instance, that we're going to have American type people working in American fields. And then if we need uh supplementary labor from outside, from

00:19:56.770 - 00:20:19.750

other nations, those people come in and work as Americans and center and, and enter into American organizations and become American citizens. Another point that Larson made when I talked with him, that seems to me to be of relevance here is that these Barcelos come in from

00:20:19.760 - 00:20:41.130

many different regions of Mexico. And uh they have traditions which frequently differ quite considerably and they speak dialects which differ and so forth. And uh that there tends to be um a separation of the camps into little cliques. One group from police, go over there from

00:20:41.609 - 00:20:58.900

walk to etcetera. And um if not openly antagonistic, at least they don't have much to do with each other. Maybe those are special to each other and so forth. And I wonder if you wouldn't have the same sort of thing happening. Uh Even if they came

00:20:58.910 - 00:21:15.550

up as family groups, I, I uh uh I must say that I haven't seen uh that too much. I mean that people really clicks in the case. I must say that but I haven't seen it too much. Uh that all you do find uh some uh

00:21:15.560 - 00:21:39.010

fighting some discontent sometimes among, among the men. But that, and I'll get our general impression that you consider uh the numbers of people, considering the numbers of people living in such close quarters and the peace and harmony and the uh uh uh a lack of, of

00:21:39.020 - 00:21:56.969

violence. It is amazing to consider, there's no police considered even an army there again, an army, an army barracks without the MP S or without the, the control, the wars that would be taking place in there. Again, it's just testimony of the fact that these are,

00:21:56.979 - 00:22:14.810

are simple and humble people who are in a, in a land where they feel inferior and where they're afraid, they're afraid to get into trouble. Uh And the Indians and the white Mexicans after all. Yeah, that's, yeah. Yeah. But the thing is these, these men for

00:22:14.819 - 00:22:31.310

the most part are very wholesome type of fellow. They, they, they, they, they all, you do get the ring from Mexico City. You see them occasionally and they will stir up trouble and they get little groups around them. But you see so many of the situation

00:22:31.319 - 00:22:43.479

where you just get this very simple type of man from a, from a Rancho. And uh he, after a while you notice you see him, he does begin getting a little bit lonely for his family and maybe drinking a little bit. You go into town and

00:22:43.489 - 00:22:59.089

get drunk and uh and, but they, but they, they seem to, they work, they work hard, they come in and they eat not much, they don't want much more to do but go to sleep. But uh generally they, they, they, they uh are able to live

00:22:59.099 - 00:23:13.099

together in, in quite a bit of harmony. In fact, I would say they would be exemplary for us. We would say, what is it that they've got that they can live together in harmony so well, uh, uh, which I think compared to, I think any other

00:23:13.109 - 00:23:34.569

groups of people that you would, they would come off very well on that. But, uh, so, uh, uh, I would think that in the main problem, uh, confronting any kind of a, a real effective organization, uh, would be, uh, the, the problems they have of, of

00:23:34.579 - 00:23:48.390

any kind of a, of a, of an inferior people. They don't, they're, they're afraid, you know, they, they're, uh, many times they will all, you see it in the camps, they'll come and they'll complain, like in these bar particularly, they haven't been working, they've been in

00:23:48.400 - 00:24:01.290

camps maybe two weeks and got only take home pay of $6 for two weeks, you know, and they'll come and they'll complain to the project. So, uh, you say, all right, now, look at the contract says you can get together in, in an organization that, uh,

00:24:01.300 - 00:24:14.729

you can, you can elect a representative to, to go and to speak. You can change. They'll, they'll complain that they, they, the field that they have, they have to walk miles to cut a few blades of grass, you know. So you tell them, all right. Look,

00:24:14.739 - 00:24:28.229

why don't you get together and they will say, oh, they're all, they're all in favor of it but then when it comes right down to doing it, uh, you don't many, many of them just don't have that guts that it takes to go up and, and,

00:24:28.239 - 00:24:44.969

and risk, uh, risk whatever they would, they would be afraid of losing. You know, and, you know, too, that these potential leaders are sent home early, don't you? Well, that, of course, that, that would be, that would be sure they would anybody, any that there, there

00:24:44.979 - 00:24:57.869

is, there certainly are cases of that where fellows who have taken on the position of leadership have just disappeared. But none of the uh oh, certainly II, I, I'm not saying that this isn't the defense of, of, of the law at all, I think. But the

00:24:57.880 - 00:25:13.829

fact is, I think you do see these are, are, are, are peons and it does affect, I think that's, again, that would be, I think what as American our indignation should be that here in the United States, we depend upon a humble uh type of person

00:25:13.839 - 00:25:24.569

that's willing to be bossed around uh uh and will take it and he has to take it because that's the kind of life that, that he's been used to, he's been used to being bossed around and not being able to stand up and tell somebody to

00:25:24.579 - 00:25:39.224

go to hell, you know, and uh uh gee you go down to one of these camps, it just, I just rage down here. The big camp. The guy had 809 100 fellows. All right, he's a, he's a Mexican American Mexican. He was working in labor camps.

00:25:39.234 - 00:25:56.430

He was a migrant laborer himself 15 years ago. But since then, now he's become an operator. One of these camps, he's got two young kids going to the Tracy High school. They're just morons. They're, they're uneducated, uh rascals. That's all they are, you know, big bluff,

00:25:56.439 - 00:26:11.739

tough guy. And there they are 16 to 17 year old kids ordering around a bunch of men, you know, like they were little Ken. I go into there and I, uh this should be done not in the United States and, and, and, and that's the thing

00:26:11.750 - 00:26:23.719

that, that, that's uh uh you see, you just have to stand, you go up there to the place and just watch, you go to one of these camps and you see, what do you see the big moms and men? And you see a ball mo, go

00:26:23.729 - 00:26:37.900

here, go there, go there, boom, boom, boom. You know, and they move like soldiers under the direction of a major. That is an American laboring man who can stand up in your face and write and complain and say he's not gonna do it, you know, but

00:26:37.910 - 00:26:55.030

they're producing American. Well, Mr G, I didn't read the report but they assume that these people are conscious of their identity or that they have any knowledge of a cultural heritage. It's fine. I think there's a parallel there with the American Negro. You think of me,

00:26:55.040 - 00:27:07.380

of Africa and what his people must have been. That's sort of what people did in the past. Well, they, of course, there is, there is the effort there. You can get them, you can talk to them. I, I've done that often. You start talking to them

00:27:07.390 - 00:27:24.560

and you tell them about Montezuma. You know, and after the war that they were really, were never whipped, you know, even by the United States, we didn't go into them. We, we didn't. Yeah, and they will stay in one of them said that they talk about

00:27:24.709 - 00:27:40.305

a and, and, uh, Texas and California fellow would say we were deceived by our leaders. We would never have sold, the people would have died until they were crushed, you know, instead of, you know, they all, you know, they were, they would never have sold their

00:27:40.314 - 00:27:56.699

patria for, for, for 5 million bucks, you know, and, but there you can, you can get them and, uh, uh, where they, where they put on a little bit of a brattle. But basically, I don't think you can have a great number of people living that

00:27:56.709 - 00:28:12.469

kind of life where they're so completely dependent upon people where they can't stand up and fight without being crushed, without it affecting their spirits. And they just, the fight isn't there and the character isn't there and many, many of them, uh, they, they are people, um,

00:28:12.569 - 00:28:30.619

who are, they have many, we call them, they're attractive. They're humble. They're gracious. They're kind, they make a wonderful labor force because, uh, they, they do so many things uncomplainingly, you know. But, uh, that's not the stuff that it makes for American independence and that's not

00:28:30.630 - 00:28:45.140

the stuff that makes for a deer, a democratic type of government. And I think that's one of the problems they have down there is that they, uh, uh, that, that they've had these people in subjection so long, uh, that it's going to take a long time

00:28:45.349 - 00:29:04.609

to, uh, to, to build up that type of spirit, you know, independent spirit that is needed for, for, for, for any kind of, uh, art, art kind of setup. Kara didn't address himself to this sort of thing in the book that he was concerned by people

00:29:05.650 - 00:29:22.119

of these paychecks that we heard the 66 for two week and things like that. Uh, although I imagine he has plenty of ideas among, well, there are harder things to, I would like to get him from someone that had some control of language to give these

00:29:22.130 - 00:29:36.920

idea to. Yeah, he is. But those ideas are hard to get across in a forceful way, but they're very real and, and, and, and it's something that, that, that, that, that impresses you as you see them more and more you see. Oh, you're down there you

00:29:36.930 - 00:29:55.040

go. Any place there, you got 1000 men, 800 men. Now, if you try to imagine now if there were 800 American men there, what the situation would be? You know, you hear a guy shouting out over a microphone much made. They all come running in there,

00:29:55.050 - 00:30:14.660

then they don't come. If they don't come, then the guy starts getting shot and then John and that memo, they come in America. What the heck is he going to tell me this? You know, and that kind of thing these people are, are uh well, they,

00:30:14.670 - 00:30:31.300

they could not operate. So, so, so economically in this field of labor, even with these men, if these men really would stand up, like an average American would do and complain and, and get a little tank tankers here and there, you know, and, and, and that

00:30:31.310 - 00:30:46.640

is, is, is, is what they want because they do. Uh as you say, if, if fellows begin to, uh they figure, I think around five or six years, many of them become sort of dangerous. They learn the ropes and they learn how to hang around, you

00:30:46.650 - 00:31:03.810

know, and, and they, they, they do just start hanging around and not putting out so much work. Well, then they don't, they find they can't make contracts again. They get, they get listed as not good workers. Uh Since the growers do have the thoroughly shift of

00:31:05.099 - 00:31:25.219

anybody out who wants to stand up on his own way. I don't know, they really have this power but, uh, is it practically that you should, um, perhaps as an injury measure, um, the best we can hope for is that, uh, these representatives whom they are

00:31:25.229 - 00:31:43.560

permitted to elect in the terms of the, uh, should be Americans who, who, who the growers can't ship out the growers don't want to mix the Mexican national with the American. Well, well, I'm sure they don't want to, but that's what be, there's nothing in the

00:31:44.030 - 00:32:02.140

country this, well, all the next, these boys have a right to enter American Union. They could be organized by the contract and that would be the same. That would be the thing that would be the first step who are, uh, are, are truly responsible. Of course,

00:32:02.150 - 00:32:21.609

maybe they, maybe they would ship out the whole crew who had elected this fellow, you know. Well, uh, they, they, uh, uh, they don't understand your thought. I hear you. And they ask me very frequently come and take a look at the improvements we made and

00:32:21.619 - 00:32:39.219

they'll tell me that you're still griping about something. They don't know what you're talking about. Yeah. Well, I, I, we should now look at the Ken and we're doing more iron men that don't have such good conditions. Yeah, that's, that's the thing that I would say

00:32:39.229 - 00:32:55.670

that they, they will, they can show you that and, and, uh, nice barracks. That are clean and good food, better food than they would have eaten. But, uh, uh, oh, I think the thing that I keep saying over and over again this is not American Lake

00:32:55.849 - 00:33:19.819

and it's producing American wealth. Yeah. Television. They have televisions. Yeah. Yeah. Uh, but here is the, here is, here is again, uh, a sort of disconnected idea but a thing, uh, impression that we get, you know, if this were some sort of a product that had

00:33:19.829 - 00:33:39.359

no intrinsic value, you, you might not even be so irritated about it. But here, what, what are they producing these people? They're producing food and, and uh food that goes in that is eaten that that is becomes part of American citizens and, and uh uh sustains

00:33:39.369 - 00:33:56.890

them. And uh then not only is it is it from intrinsically and from the point of view of being who, but then from the point of view, like in the valley, it's the, it's the basis upon which the economy is built uh uh that which, which

00:33:56.900 - 00:34:12.219

is holding up much of the other industry and therefore supporting much of the other, of the other wealth and income. Now they, they maintain that you've got to start someplace, it's got to be a bottom. And they just say, well, historically, agriculture has always been to

00:34:12.229 - 00:34:28.879

the bottom and therefore, uh why don't you be content with that? Well, I think anyone with a, with a proper judgment should say uh if in the United States anyway, where we seem to be of all nations to be approximating some sort of social justice equity

00:34:28.889 - 00:34:48.790

in, in things. Uh Why, why can't we say, well, we should expect that if people are producing real wealth of this nature, that they should be able to be living in the community with the respect of their, of their fellow citizens or, or, or fellow associates

00:34:48.800 - 00:35:08.070

anyway. And, and why do you have to figure that this has to be the B and, uh, uh, uh, uh, and that's, that, that's aggravated. I think when you think even the, the, the, the quantities, the value of the product, a fellow working like a Toma

00:35:08.139 - 00:35:26.989

is 10,000 pounds of potato. Rather he sacks in order to get $10 or $8. Well, what other American working man has produced that amount of value? 10,000 pounds of potatoes. And here this fellow who produces 10,000 pounds of potatoes has to be content. And we're supposed

00:35:27.000 - 00:35:41.179

to be, ah, how wonderful. Look at the nice clean barracks he can live in. His wife and kids are down in Mexico, Mexican. But look at the good barracks he had and he's produced for us 10,000 pounds of potatoes. Uh, whereas some other guy, he might,

00:35:41.189 - 00:35:55.610

uh, he might, uh, dig a, dig a ditch for a PG and EL maybe, you know, well, that's good work to let him live. But here he does. He produces a ditch and so he can live in a nice bungalow in, in, in one of the

00:35:55.620 - 00:36:08.429

tracks and with his family and his kids, if they're asking school what his dad does. He said my dad is a PG and E laboring man. He can say that. Hold his head up. He's not ashamed to say that his dad is a PGE laboring man.

00:36:09.030 - 00:36:26.300

But the little Mexican kids and they start getting into high school. We used to start asking them what their dads do. They don't like to say that they're field workers, field laborers where I come from. My, my uh home was in Palo Alto uh in that

00:36:26.310 - 00:36:52.850

area, Santa Clara Valley. One of the uh juiciest epithets that could be heard that anybody was prune picker, prune picker. Yeah. A dirty lady picker. Oh Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. The association has, the Scavenger Association has Spanish and, and uh uh so I don't know, I think,

00:36:52.860 - 00:37:17.709

I think father that the uh the key concept that uh we're trying to work with is respect, self respect and respect from others. They are very difficult concepts to, to work with, to pin down, to manipulate, to try to alter. I think you can appreciate this.

00:37:17.719 - 00:37:41.270

And uh my faculty committee up there in Berkeley is uh by large a group of empirical scientists, you know, what things that you can measure and quantify and yeah, and so forth. Yeah. And so I have the, I have a twofold problem with that as I

00:37:41.280 - 00:38:06.239

go through this work of, um, trying to do something that I consider important and at the same time, which meets the criteria which is beyond my, uh, my control. Well, let's see, maybe we can give some statistics. I can just what statistics of, of just here

00:38:06.250 - 00:38:26.659

in my territory of, uh, uh, wait a minute. And I was, uh particularly welcome things on which you don't have statistics, which are important that you would like to have statistics on which maybe you might fill, fill the g, yeah. Uh, because our, our budget is

00:38:26.679 - 00:38:51.060

such that we'll be able to hire some interviewers, uh, and, uh, field workers. All right. Well, let's see. Uh, wait, just wait. Well, this is a very interesting project. I like it. You meet some interesting people I know do working well, I, uh, they kind of,

00:38:51.070 - 00:39:13.330

I think they watch me more. Well, they don't want me to do anything. They want me to pass along the writer inflammation. I hope that we're on the, on the train with something worthwhile. What is the Coral Sugar doing Carl's position? Well, he, uh, he, uh,

00:39:13.770 - 00:39:33.540

is the, uh, the white and Farm Labor Contractors Association. And, uh, um, what, what, what, what he tried to do there was get all these labor contractors to get together in an association where they would be, have rules which they would have to obey if they

00:39:33.550 - 00:39:51.879

became licensed and they figured that the idea would, then if you could bring some sort of control into the practices of, uh, of labor contractors by having licenses, just like you would by any other kind of contractors there. I don't know, I don't know whether he's

00:39:51.889 - 00:40:09.969

just making a job for himself or not. I don't mean to say, um, but, uh, uh, uh, now as we see, the thing is that a licensed farm, labor contractor could fit in it. We had a situation whereby you had growers and an organized uh pool

00:40:09.979 - 00:40:26.229

of, of industrial labor, agricultural laborers. In many instances, your, your, your labor contractor would be just exactly in the position of, of a building contractor. He would go to the grower and the grower would say I have this problem. I have so many tomatoes, so much

00:40:26.239 - 00:40:42.709

asparagus that I want to pick and then the contractor would, would, would take on the responsibility of picking that. But then he would draw his labor then from the organized uh labor force and the agreement, the, the, the conditions of the, of the, of work, of

00:40:42.719 - 00:41:02.360

wages and price and conditions would be determined by contract by between uh the uh organized labor. And uh uh well, the general contractors, they would draw which all contractors or businesses would have to uh uh abide by if they were to use it. Just like now

00:41:02.370 - 00:41:15.050

any, any, any legitimate building builder, if he's gonna build he knows what his labor costs are because he's got a, a labor pool that he think that that is organized that he works from and we think that they could fit in there, that they would fit

00:41:15.060 - 00:41:42.899

in. Very importantly there. Uh, uh, let's see. Um, yeah, this was in, in, in, uh, the, these figures are, are very, very, very conservative, but this was in the year 1955. That wasn't last year. I haven't finished up this report. In 1955 I went to 100

00:41:42.909 - 00:42:04.439

and eight camps and there were in those camps, 18,000 population of and uh of that under 18,000, I, I counted, uh each night when I go to a camp, I would count how many people came to the mass, uh 11,000 now. And uh most of the

00:42:04.449 - 00:42:15.560

time that there would be a camp of 50 or 60 fellows, I had at least had a low to most of the fellows in the camp. Now, uh you could say about half that number. I, I talked to with some little extent in any sort of

00:42:15.570 - 00:42:32.100

group discussion that we have after a match or something like that. Oh, so then this is a break of the place but that, that was in, in, in, in 55. It was 100 and eight. Now, last year, uh I this 56 I haven't got it figured

00:42:32.110 - 00:42:46.689

out yet completely, but it looks like it's hitting up around 100 and 50 100 and 60 camp that I visited. And uh in the, in, in the camps there were over low, over 20 25,000 in those camps that I visited. And I, I'm sure that when

00:42:46.699 - 00:43:01.649

I tally up all the figures and I don't know that it will come much over, over that figure. So in the last two years, we have that at least say at least 10,000 fellows uh 55 and around 15,000 this year that I've had some, some meetings

00:43:01.659 - 00:43:20.679

with in, in over 100 labor camps now. And, and, and r uh I would say uh in now I have been going to camps for the last uh uh six years to five years, almost exclusively. And I would say that from five years ago to this

00:43:20.689 - 00:43:40.500

year, the uh uh percentage of repeats have risen uh oh triple. Uh you know, when we, well, we can remember when we first went, there were still many Mexican fans. They, we still had some of these uh uh family migratory laborers up in this valley. And

00:43:40.510 - 00:43:53.469

that's what we first went to. In fact, as I can remember our idea as priest. You know, one of the first things you do when you go to an Torito, take a census, go around and knock on the door and find out who's there. So that's

00:43:53.479 - 00:44:03.399

all we do. Nobody told us what to do when we go to these camps. So we went into a camp. We took sense. So we go to the families. All right, and write down the name and how many Children they had and how old they were

00:44:03.409 - 00:44:15.429

and all that. So then we come to a tent of uh of these 50 fellas in 10. He who wonder what to do with these 50 fellow. And this was the days when there were lots of wet back. So attendants find out what their names is.

00:44:15.439 - 00:44:29.659

What they're doing is we not talking, what's your name? How are you, where do you live? So I'm sure all of it was false because many of them were, were with that. But anyway, we did that. But from talking to them in those in, in, in

00:44:29.669 - 00:44:46.310

say around uh that time, around 50 most of them uh were men who were coming the first time. Uh uh That was our of our impression that most of the men that we met in these camps in around 1551 were men who were, were coming up

00:44:46.320 - 00:45:03.949

on the first time. Now, the impression most definitely is that most of them of the men have been here at least once. Many of them have been coming regularly for four or five years. They don't come with. No, no, not at all. No, no, but some

00:45:04.270 - 00:45:22.340

still some with the, with the, with the, uh, uh uh, you know, tire shoes and a sera and the Mexican, you know, the first thing they do that somebody orients them and tell them, don't dare go with that. You think you are, you still find some

00:45:22.350 - 00:45:36.620

good brave soul that stands up but, but not so many of them. That's right. And, and we, uh, we, we can see that without any, any, any qualms at all or exaggeration. Now, most of the men that we run into are men who have been here

00:45:36.629 - 00:46:06.149

at least once or twice before they are, uh, also, uh, uh, a big percentage, more than half of the men are married with families. Uh, and then also that, uh, uh, they, they, family life is being affected by this, uh, in, in this way that, uh,

00:46:06.669 - 00:46:23.719

we're, again, we haven't tallied up exact figures, but now this, all of us talking, asking men what they think and more and more of them are beginning to become accustomed to the idea that, well, maybe they might go on for quite a long time being away

00:46:23.729 - 00:46:34.270

from the family for the most part of the year that they're gonna figure out some sort of life where they're gonna be. It's better. They say, well, they say you ask them, well, it's better, they can work here and send their money down to their families.

00:46:34.860 - 00:46:51.270

That idea is becoming, I, is, is, is, uh, is, is, uh, is, uh, becoming more and more acceptable to them. And people say, well, why can't, in fact, uh uh people have told us, well, you're, you're the priest. They have great respect for what you say.

00:46:51.280 - 00:47:04.899

Why don't you tell them that they should go home to their family? People don't have that much respect for a priest. But that, that when it comes down to money and bread and butter, they might say, oh, see, see, it's better to be with your family.

00:47:04.909 - 00:47:15.330

In fact, we talk to them that way. Now, do you think it's good for you to be down? You, you tell them, you say, well, you, you know, your, your Children, the Children need the father. It's not good without the father, father's got a discipline. The

00:47:15.340 - 00:47:27.300

wife, wife can't get along without the father. You need them. Yeah, he says, yeah. That's right. That's right. That's right. But then when it comes right down to the question, are you gonna stay home and try to plan your life down in Mexico and what you

00:47:27.310 - 00:47:41.360

can best you can do down there? Oh, no, no. Do you have one more year, father one more year? That's the, that's the idea more. And again, we haven't tallied up any statistics on it, but certainly it's becoming more common that, that attitude. Do you have

00:47:41.620 - 00:47:57.179

any idea of how well they are able to provide for their families while they are? They do they send money regularly? And is it a fairly adequate quality of money? Would, would you say that, uh, uh, again, of course, that depends much upon the situation in

00:47:57.189 - 00:48:12.020

some places. Uh, they, where they get pretty regular work. For instance, again, I mentioned the men that go to Zuckerman, he keeps them working and they average pretty close to maybe 30 to $40 a week, sometimes more. And then he has them out there pretty far

00:48:12.030 - 00:48:27.340

away and they will send a good percentage of that. But now we will say this again, again, trends, uh, when they first come up, almost their whole paycheck after wal the first paycheck is clothes and things, you know, uh, that, that's the first paycheck is just

00:48:27.479 - 00:48:42.739

clothes and watching trinkets and things like that. But then after the first paycheck, they start sending a great percentage of it goes home. But then as they come up here, two years, three years, they find that they need more religion and they're sending less home. Um,

00:48:43.459 - 00:48:55.889

and, and, uh, uh, again, this, this is again a thing that we run into many times. They, they come up here, they have debts to pay off down there that they might, they might have contract debts. Or else maybe the guy wants to buy a tractor

00:48:55.899 - 00:49:06.129

or buy something for it to a plot or maybe he wants to open up a little store. Uh Some of them plan to do that. They want to open up a little store in the village. So they come here and their idea is that they're gonna

00:49:06.139 - 00:49:19.989

make a good killing, which is gonna enable them to do that. Well, they don't quite make that killing. They, they, they send home a good bit of money. Then the next year they don't make it yet. So then they begin giving up this idea of buying

00:49:20.000 - 00:49:32.800

a tractor or of, uh, maybe they pay off their debt, but they also get used to living here. So the wife needs less. Now when they, when, when, when they first came here the first year, they, they sent most of their money home because they were

00:49:32.810 - 00:49:44.139

paying off the debt. But after two years they had the debt pay off. Now, the wife can get by on the, on the exchange with half the money that they were sending home. You see, so they keep the other half here and we say they shouldn't

00:49:44.149 - 00:50:00.260

do it and, and, uh, but all we can say is that, uh, for, for they're normal people and, and you can't have a system that, that, that, that makes it too easy for a fell to decay. And they are, they are, uh, people will complain. They

00:50:00.270 - 00:50:16.060

say that they're no good. Uh, all you can say is, well, that they're no worse than, than any, any other average group of people. But the situation they do, uh, they do if they do get to come apart at the sea morally and in their integrity

00:50:16.070 - 00:50:33.969

and get involved, uh, uh, in, in, in practices that are not good. Is it, uh, is it fairly common practice for prostitutes to go? Oh, yeah, that's regular. That's regular. That's right. They go in, they go right into the dormitory and wake the fellow up in

00:50:33.979 - 00:50:49.610

bed. The man they can turn their back on or are they? No, I wouldn't say that they're in league. I wouldn't say that. You couldn't say that they're in league. You wouldn't say that they turn their back. But they say Lord to say it's hard enough

00:50:49.620 - 00:51:05.169

to keep an army again. They say, well, what, what can you do? And I think you can say that uh what can you do? You've got 100 men who are 80 80 88 8 months of the year away from their, their wife and their Children. Like,

00:51:05.179 - 00:51:20.070

for instance, uh uh Zuckerman, you, I, I know Zuckerman even has a guard there and he uh uh he tries to keep them out, but he has his family men at work. In fact, one of the fellows that I married I know uh is, is uh

00:51:20.080 - 00:51:34.909

uh uh is making a little side cash by bringing in a girl. Now, he, he comes in, he got a sticker on his car. Uh And yeah, I was in supplements for quite a while and uh there was uh men here wanting to go out there.

00:51:34.919 - 00:51:58.370

And so I said, I'll go out there. I know everybody out there and I went out there and they asked me what my purpose was. I got it. They're stopping women. Zuckerman himself is trying to keep them out. They told you Zuckerman is, and many of

00:51:58.379 - 00:52:08.530

them are trying to do. Zuckerman is, I would say out there, well, he's got a guard of all the places. He's got a guard and he checks you and I have to have a past to get out of here. And I think one of the main

00:52:08.540 - 00:52:23.050

reasons is precisely that to keep evil agents away from him. And yeah, yeah. And I think it's very good but you, you can't, how can you, I mean, he's got, he's got some other employees there and how can you? I know I go to the men,

00:52:23.060 - 00:52:37.689

talk to the men and they say the girls are there and you can, I know when we used to say mass in the morning in the camp before we got permitted privilege to say mass in, in, in the night. In several instances, I went to hear

00:52:37.699 - 00:52:56.830

confessions. I would sleep right out there at the camp and then go and wake the fellows up an hour before breakfast time, you know, to have the mask and I would uh uh go in and, and disturb the prostitutes. Uh uh uh and something that's happened

00:52:56.840 - 00:53:07.320

regularly. I'd be in there in a place at night like when this happened just to a place I was in there saying one night after dinner. It was a Saturday night. I should never go to a camp on a Saturday night or after the night after.

00:53:07.425 - 00:53:18.395

Hey, but all the boys were in there and we were playing the role. So there was a promotion outside the car and I could see out the window, there was some girls in there. See, so one of the boys got up and went outside and I

00:53:18.405 - 00:53:34.199

could hear, go away, go away, go away. The fathers that have come back in an hour. So, uh, uh, well, what can you do? I suppose they could, they could come into town if they don't go out to the camp. But they actually, there, there's lots

00:53:34.209 - 00:53:46.870

of girls and they come up from Mexico and not, in fact, I know, I know some, uh, some young women who are married with Children around here and I know I know them, uh, and they had hard times. Their husbands are no good or whatever it

00:53:46.879 - 00:54:05.149

is and they're making a little extra c going around the camp. Um, there's also a good deal of drinking, you say, uh, well, they know, I would say that, um, uh, uh, uh, it's, it's pretty good. It's, uh, uh, they, uh, they used to be sort

00:54:05.159 - 00:54:19.800

of careless on that. I, I don't say that the growers or that the camp operators would provide the drink although that sometimes happened, but they would not be careful about keeping others bringing it in uh, but now they found out that they want good work. They,

00:54:19.810 - 00:54:33.520

they won't get that. So they have soda and them, many of them and will, will take the soda pop instead. But uh they do, uh, uh, uh they will get uh drunk, you know, uh, when they get sad or something like that, men that might not

00:54:33.530 - 00:54:54.510

get drunk otherwise, uh, that, that's, uh, that isn't the biggest problem, although sometimes it is, sometimes you run into a bad situation there but drinking would not be any worse than any other comparable American group. Use something like that. Uh, the, uh, with drugs, I haven't

00:54:54.520 - 00:55:13.219

run into much, although I have been accused of supplying drugs once. Oh, yeah, I was, I was, they, they, that, that's another thing. But anyway, uh, uh there was, there was, uh, uh, uh I haven't come into much of that. The main thing it is is,

00:55:13.229 - 00:55:35.189

uh, is, uh, is getting, getting, uh, used to, well, the nice clothes and, and the night in town Heel and the money in their pocket through which they have here, which they don't have down there and then uh abandoning their families or friends, they will tell

00:55:35.199 - 00:55:46.770

you the boys will tell you that they might, he might be a young fellow gonna come up and send money to his, to his family, to his father or his mother or something like that. And then, uh he will say, uh I haven't seen as much

00:55:46.780 - 00:56:01.899

as I should have said, he's been spending it on himself, you know. And, uh, uh, that's the main thing, you know, young men to go home and I'm going to go home and I'm gonna go get married. So, and so on. And we all know when

00:56:01.909 - 00:56:14.659

I've got engaged to, I'm going to marry and he'll go home and he says, and I'll never come back. I absolutely will never come back. And that goes for me. And this paper is boils up and homesickness and all and he'll go back and you'll see

00:56:14.669 - 00:56:29.764

him here six months later and they, they do want to go back. But something has happened to him. But whether they still married, it's, uh, it's quite a difference. We, we find a comparison to what happens to, to seminarians or monks. See, the seminarian or monk

00:56:29.774 - 00:56:42.195

is off in his monastery. See, and he gets used to, to living a quiet life without, without too much diversion. So, but during a period of training, they always send him home for vacation and the purpose of vacation is to let him get a good dose

00:56:42.205 - 00:56:55.820

of, of the, of the distractions and the interest and the excitement that he can have as they stay out in the world. You see the idea that we'll let him make up his mind whether he wants the quiet contemplative life or the, or the ordinary life.

00:56:56.500 - 00:57:08.989

But so you find many, many, many of the fellows that happened just like that. Well, they like the, the, the, the quiet life. All right. And, and many of the things that are connected with the life of contemplation. But after they get out on their first

00:57:09.000 - 00:57:20.824

vacation and they go out to the ball games and maybe a dancer. So, no, no, no, no more of the quiet life. So it's the same way with these boys that they, you can talk to them on. I, it used to be in a small village

00:57:20.834 - 00:57:33.304

with their love of their mother and their father and all the friends that they know and all that. But a boy is a boy and once he's had some of the, some of the fun and the excitement that he can get in an American town. He's

00:57:33.314 - 00:57:51.280

finished with a small village in Mexico and he has no future in the American town and he, and he's finished with the village. You know, actually we're talking about something that's worldwide and that is the impact of Western civilization upon the rest of women. Yeah. Yeah.

00:57:53.120 - 00:58:09.590

But the thing, I think the difference between it and in a way it's, it sort of gets you in the United States, which is doing somewhat, at least where this thing is hitting in other, in other places, it's hitting families and at least men are, it

00:58:09.600 - 00:58:24.899

might be discontent, but at least it's a discontent in a sort of a natural surroundings here. We the United States of America, which is doing so much is, is, is displacing men from normal life. I mean, the normal life is to be married and to have

00:58:24.909 - 00:58:43.620

a family and that's, that's the normal life and, and uh uh why, why we should build up a whole economy which depends upon people being disjointed from that with all our wealth. It seems to be, seems to be crazy. The picture is shown in the schools

00:58:43.790 - 00:59:03.500

too, with these youngsters, some of them are deported with their parents. And when they come here, fifth or sixth grade, they don't know English, they never know that. Really? Yeah, I had a problem with military Christmas there. Yeah, the thing is, well, here is what somebody

00:59:03.510 - 00:59:15.879

told me that. What with the solution? They said, they said put it this way. I was talking with one of the uh presidents, one of the Growers Association. He said, father, look, we will admit that there have been bad things in the past in these migrant

00:59:15.889 - 00:59:28.659

camps. Uh But look, things are improving a great deal. Now, if you've seen it yourself, you've seen the food and things like that. But now look, don't, don't get involved in organizing a group of American men who are going to be scrapping just like other union

00:59:28.669 - 00:59:48.010

men to hold on to jobs which should maybe disappear with the advent of machinery. Uh instead of instead of instead of organizing American men who will try to keep alive jobs in industrial agriculture that should not be kept alive. Why not use foreign labor. Uh which

00:59:48.020 - 01:00:04.379

uh we can pay at a better rate than they can get down there. But then, which we do not need to hold on to. So that if the machine comes along and displaces them, we, we, we don't, we're not shop over. Oh, that's, that's, that's precisely

01:00:04.389 - 01:00:24.020

what was said. Uh And that is the practical solution that they, that they put for the thing. It's precisely that they say the machine will solve. You don't see anything wrong with that. Oh, nothing at all. Nothing at all. But it's, it's uh uh well, it

01:00:24.030 - 01:00:37.729

would fit into like, like uh uh there, there were these young fellows who could come in and work and have the American money and then get the American incentive and go back and reorganize Mexico. It would sound nice.