00:00:02.180 - 00:00:22.579

Well, do you, I'm not going to press you for an answer. I uh well, I mean, the thing is what to do at this time there, as you say, there seems to be some value of keeping some, some show of strength, some form of organization. Uh

00:00:25.129 - 00:00:45.340

Now how do you keep this show of strength with a group of people that are for the most part, I think even most of the leaders would be dispirited from the point of view of hope, you know, of what might be accomplished. Uh I think generally

00:00:45.349 - 00:01:07.349

you can, people will get together in private to, well, you get some sort of a camaraderie and support uh about something that is pretty hopeless. Uh When it's, when it's not hanging out for all the world to see how they are aligned with something that's weak,

00:01:07.360 - 00:01:40.919

they're laughing stock or something. But uh to uh to publicly be a part of a weak whipped. Yeah, uh uh group. And this, of course is the big advantage that knock will have going for him. He will uh disavow anything to do with the old. And

00:01:40.930 - 00:02:07.250

we present this as being something completely new and, uh, maybe we'll get some mileage out of that. They've gone through that already. And this was, this is what, uh, a walk left was something completely new too. Well, I remember saying a year or two years ago

00:02:07.260 - 00:02:24.529

when, or maybe it was two years ago when Smith came in. It was my opinion at that time, this had to be it. I think you might have in one of these tapes. Hm. I think I do that. If the union didn't carry this one off,

00:02:27.179 - 00:02:53.889

they look pretty desperate and I can honestly say Hank and behold, truth that it looks pretty desperate. Uh, I think it looks desperate for, uh, for organizing in a sense that I would use that term. Mhm. Uh, for a bona fide union here you look at,

00:02:53.899 - 00:03:16.800

I've eaten up all your time. I think that, uh, it's all together possible. Maybe even probable that, uh, after Jimmy Hoffa gets through, oh, the Cincinnati and Saint Louis insurgents solving some of his other internal problems that he can come in and sign all sweetheart contracts

00:03:16.809 - 00:03:35.289

that he wants. And, uh, oh, that, of course, that all possible. That's altogether possible. But, uh, as far as something, uh, really involving the workers and representing their will. Well, of course, the teamsters, I'd say the teamsters if they wanted to and I think there are

00:03:35.300 - 00:03:52.529

good teamsters, they could do it. They could even, I think, establish not a perfect union, but I say a union at least is as effective as the cannery workers union. It would be very similar. Yeah. Well, that's a heck of a lot better than what the

00:03:52.539 - 00:04:23.720

field workers got. Um, they could do that. Uh, uh, but, uh, the teamsters didn't organize the cannery workers. They organize themselves and went to the A F of L asked for a charter and they were turned over lock stock and to the teamster and I've had

00:04:23.730 - 00:04:46.809

very little to say about the running of their union ever since. Hm. But still the team, I think, could organize a union similar to that all the workers if the team should go open up its door to the field workers. Yeah, you say just come, sign

00:04:46.820 - 00:05:09.929

up, uh, pay your dues and, uh, we'll start, uh, uh, scrap them for, you guarantee it a dollar 25 next next year or something like that. You know, for those who sign up, they just, people just flock in or even if they, if they somehow made

00:05:09.940 - 00:05:44.220

a, a connection between the cannery workers and the field workers. And, uh, well, another question occurs to me which I'm sure that, uh, Norman Smith threw at you way back in the days of the A W A even assuming the very best and assuming that somehow

00:05:44.230 - 00:06:11.100

or other we were able to, uh, get enough interest generated to, uh, maintain a program of organizing the need neighborhoods and having monthly meetings of 34, 500 people in stock and whatever it might be, uh, maybe even, uh, enough to pay a secretary, treasurer, secretary. How

00:06:11.109 - 00:06:27.959

are you living? Has any of this bizarre and category life stuff come through at all? Well, he paid me for writing, uh, those articles for the encyclopedia. He did. I don't know whether I showed you those or not. You showed me. Yeah, you showed me the

00:06:27.970 - 00:06:51.029

ones in agriculture. Yeah. Right. And also you paid me something for that uh policy statement on migratory labor. But let me try to remember what, what I was on. I was saying. Yeah, even in city, we had a counterpart to the A W A. He talked

00:06:51.040 - 00:07:23.899

in local, maybe even the San Joaquin County organization. Um What could that accomplish? Uh in view of the fact that all the crops which would be involved are crops grown across county lines. All the uh uh the labor force involved in any particular crop activity would

00:07:23.910 - 00:07:51.170

be a labor force made up. Yeah. To a considerable extent of people from outside the area, whether r crows or green cards or fruit tramps or whatever they might be. Um Would the time ever come when you could think and talk seriously about a purely local

00:07:51.179 - 00:08:38.929

organization dealing with the growers of any particular crop. Could, could you sustain an organization without this kind of vision as to your ultimate objective on I think that 400 workers who really uh had some but uh what do you call it? We're tied together, we're cohesiveness.

00:08:40.400 - 00:09:24.419

Uh and had some idea of what they were doing. Uh could get as a group maybe because they were so small, uh could get some uh uh say a reasonable demand as the first step. Uh Now, let's see if I can remember the details of how

00:09:24.479 - 00:10:08.900

I thought this was possible. Uh oh if you had 400 workers who wanted to work in the Tomato Center, uh and who would agree and stand to it, say for instance that they would not work, say for less than certain minimum. I remember we worked this

00:10:08.909 - 00:10:40.750

out in the, you know, that they, that they would not work for less than a certain minimum and that they would also guarantee certain production quotas uh and cohesive enough to, to uh be a group that would, that would uh um be able to say that

00:10:40.760 - 00:10:55.659

they, they are there available for work, they would not be working, maybe would not be uh would could make a demonstration in for some period of time in front of the city. I remember we talked about moving in and camping in front of the and camping

00:10:55.669 - 00:11:12.039

on, on that park there in front of the city hall steps or something like this. Huh? When all we wanted, they say it would be something that we're going the meat production quotas. Huh? We want an arrangement somewhat similar to what they have in a packing

00:11:12.049 - 00:11:31.700

shed with not even that much money, but from that, from the point of view of production put and that we are willing to, to work for this, but we will not work for less. We do not have the strength to, to tie up any, any ranch

00:11:31.710 - 00:11:53.789

in the whole production. Uh So the community is gonna have to, uh, somebody's gonna have to take care of him. Well, this is a, uh, a moral appeal then rather than, well, one that uses, uh, power, I would say, yeah, I would say that, that, that,

00:11:53.799 - 00:12:20.789

that hot, they could get a power this way. Uh, uh, if they, if you had four people they would be joined by others and then I think you would be able to, to, to, to, uh, to, to, uh, close down some, some people, you know, uh,

00:12:20.799 - 00:12:35.849

with the, with the others that you would have, but first they would have to be getting known as a people that were willing to suffer for their rights and they would, they would close down, they would say strike. We refuse to work. But then when they

00:12:35.859 - 00:12:57.489

just, uh, closed off around them and you had people striking there with, uh, uh, with no income and, and, and the farm, the farm outfit just going completely around him. Huh? Uh, could you, you, you could start calling upon the unions? Well, look at the, uh,

00:12:58.789 - 00:13:32.969

here we are, we're striking this is the basis of the thing. They're using Bracero someplace else in another county. They're just gonna let this tomato crop rot, huh? Whatever it is. Uh, uh, now, uh, uh, we are, we are suffering, huh? I mean, for, to, to

00:13:32.979 - 00:13:52.559

the, to the labor movement, to the labor movement. All right. Uh, I think this has been the thing with these strikes. It's been all paid pickets for the most part and people who were not working, I mean, who, who, who, uh, were working someplace else or

00:13:52.570 - 00:14:16.830

something to this effect. It wasn't a group of 400 people on, on, on strike around the, the, the, the operation. Uh, and on strike. Workers on strike going hungry, huh? There's never been any of that. Yeah. Workers on strike going hungry. Maybe the imperial building. How

00:14:16.840 - 00:14:36.570

many did they have anything like that? Well, they had a soup kitchen that fit quite a few people down, uh, family and so forth families. Yeah, of course, that's, uh imperial value would be a bad spot to try to do that. You don't have, you don't

00:14:36.580 - 00:15:03.200

have the community around you. Uh, uh, I didn't appeal to other workers to, to, to, to, uh, to, uh, to walk off their walk off, their tractors, leave their tractors on the field to do this and do that and to, to, uh, refuse to sell your,

00:15:03.210 - 00:15:44.450

your dignity or your labor for, for below the price of honor. I, this is sort of a desperation move. But I think if you had 400 workers, uh, uh, who reached the point, they were workers bona fide workers. And, uh, uh, they did get completely outflanked.

00:15:44.460 - 00:16:03.690

I mean, this is on this, this is on, I not said on a union, I mean, on, on a strike effort where the, they would just, uh, just let the field go. Hm. Let it right. I'm gonna do that. You get the crop picked by brust

00:16:03.809 - 00:16:32.099

arrows or green cards? Oh, I don't think they would not if you have the workers there where outside the gates of the field, uh, you know what's gonna happen to you overnight? But you're gonna get an injunction prohibiting picketing and demonstrating. Uh, all right. So what

00:16:32.109 - 00:16:44.090

do they do? I would defy the injunction and what would they do then I would defy it and we're just going to our jobs. That's all we're not picketing demonstrating. We're just going to our jobs waiting to get employed when the contractor, when the farmer is

00:16:44.099 - 00:16:57.580

willing to pay us. Tell it to the judge buddy. Come on. Right. 400. 400 in jail. Right. 400. Do you think that would have some effect? I'd love to see it. It would have a tremendous effect. I think it can, you, can you prepare those 400

00:16:57.590 - 00:17:12.859

people to do that to go this far? I don't know. I don't know what you did. You ever discuss this possibility in a W A, no, no, we haven't got to that point. I think it's a real possibility. I mean, a real problem but I say

00:17:12.869 - 00:17:36.920

it would have, I would say this coldly, they could not walk into it but in the heat of battle they might, uh, well, maybe the, maybe the problem is that they, uh, that you haven't got 400 people who are desperate enough in a real sense. You

00:17:36.930 - 00:18:02.219

know, the, the growers have been buying off the workers by giving, uh, improvements and then there's always the chance out. That's a big problem. But wealth, you asked the question 400. I don't think, uh, I don't think I would be prepared to start any real trouble

00:18:02.229 - 00:18:24.819

with just 400 when you would just get going. You would wanna have, you'd hope that your 400 would, uh, would be a core of, of, of a larger group. Huh? But 400 if, if, if this was all you were able to get, I think foreign people

00:18:24.829 - 00:18:39.650

that are ready to stick together could cause some trouble foreign and mona fide workers, it'd be by far the biggest organization. No, it's not in the 401 but it's getting pretty close to the biggest organization of workers and in the, in the Stockton area, you know.

00:18:40.569 - 00:19:18.000

Hm. Maybe the, maybe the longshoreman could put together a group bigger than that. Um, well, how would you keep the first ones that's, you approached and got interested and you got a, to place how would you keep them, uh, interested during the rather, uh, long period

00:19:18.010 - 00:19:48.239

of time that it would take you to build up the remainder of your force? Um, would there be anything that, uh, these first people could be doing during these months that might be involved before you would ever call your first demonstration? Well, or would you just

00:19:48.250 - 00:20:14.170

have their names? No, they would be working, they would be working on people. Their constant job would be constant, constant getting people developing their little. Uh Would you review for me again, the process which you described to me once in your office at Saint Linus um

00:20:15.790 - 00:20:35.180

about the way the Communist Party operated, uh which you said, which you said we might uh we might profit from, I don't know whether I don't speak as an expert from the Communist Party that I heard that this is how they did it and this is

00:20:35.189 - 00:21:11.109

it. Um But the idea is that you, it's all cell division that you get a group. And then uh gee, let me see if I can hear the details of it. Dart. They uh all right. Yeah. You, you say you get your neighborhood, you get B

00:21:11.119 - 00:21:35.920

from over here and C and D and uh your first group, maybe she, they meet together and you get going and then after a while, ideas to try to get B then to try to get a little group in his neighborhood and if necessary to reach

00:21:35.930 - 00:21:51.420

out his neighborhood, you would, first you would divide the section up into big, might be the whole city or at least it would be one person from each neighborhood. Huh? Well, or a group would have to be one person. But I see. And then, but then

00:21:51.430 - 00:22:09.099

that, for instance, he might have the whole deal, the whole box tract area. So he might get three or four out of the whole box tract area together there. Then the idea being that then you could subdivide the bog tract area until you got down to

00:22:09.109 - 00:22:29.349

your, into, to your, to your small areas. Now, there had to be some overlapping. You couldn't be completely geographical because uh people don't, don't live within their, their, their social contacts are not geographical. Although geographic can't be, I don't think you should overlook it. So there

00:22:29.359 - 00:22:59.180

would be some overlapping. There are people coming across, across uh city and so forth. Um But the idea would all the time constantly be to, to uh b uh breaking down, breaking down until then you had. Yeah. And since you know, what was this other thing?

00:22:59.199 - 00:23:21.520

I'm forgetting something here. Yeah, that you, all right. So suppose we were to get Bill, we call him. All right. Now we help Bill, he gets Bill and then he gets five or six other fellows. All right. Now, building uh would deal with not only the

00:23:21.530 - 00:23:32.719

five or six other fellows, but when maybe a good number of other fellows that might come to a general meeting, but then he'd constantly be working, constantly, be working. So that maybe, then he would have, he would divide himself into two out of the group. He

00:23:32.729 - 00:23:48.530

would find Pete and Mike. Now, Pete and Mike, then each one would have their group and they would take their group and take that bigger group. That Bill was meeting with. He'd divide it in two and give one part of it to Bill and one part

00:23:48.540 - 00:24:11.010

of it to Mike. Then, uh uh he would, uh help them work with them and so forth until hopefully, uh Bills and Mike would be in the same position in relation to their, to their group that, uh, that Pete was in the beginning of his group

00:24:11.020 - 00:24:28.270

and then they could subdivide their group and they would have something. All right. Now, if this process went on and Pete up here, uh, really kept contact, he wouldn't have to keep contact with, with all the people except generally coming to some meeting, but really kept

00:24:28.280 - 00:24:47.290

close contact with each one of these group leaders that developed, huh? He would really be this thing that the, that the Irw saying that he represented the will of all those other people huh through uh the intermediates. Uh This is the theory of the thing. It

00:24:47.300 - 00:25:01.530

never works as beautifully as you can draw it out on paper. But still the basic idea, I think, uh, can, can work and I think this is what it has to be that your men who are up in the top have to have underneath them a

00:25:01.540 - 00:25:29.569

whole string of people, uh, who, whom they deal with, who in turn are the ones who are directly or indirectly in contact with, with the masses. Huh? And that they, uh, their leadership means principally the holding of the loyalty and the holding of the confidence, not

00:25:29.579 - 00:25:46.790

of the masses, but of these, uh, lieutenants you might call it and they're the ones that hold the masses. Huh? Yeah. But the masses have nothing to do with the selecting of this guy, Pete or of Bill and Mike, his lieutenants. This is a process which

00:25:46.800 - 00:26:10.030

filters down from, from on high rather than beginning from the bottom. It begins, it begins with your small group. Um, the, um, and that, that group then is in a position to be completely self perpetuating, isn't it? Well, no, not completely because, uh, although very much

00:26:10.040 - 00:26:31.079

so, but not completely because, um, each one of these fellows along the line has got to, he's not going to hold on to his people unless he's able to, uh, to, to represent them in some way and get out of the overall organization, something that they're

00:26:31.089 - 00:26:47.949

looking for. If they're disgusted, he's lost them. So he's got no people anymore. You've got chief with no Indian. So this is the pressure that they have on the tough guy and he comes to him and said, look, uh, um, I just got to have this

00:26:47.959 - 00:27:02.640

for my people and this is where, of course, this is where he's got to sell himself to the, to the, I think there's an overlapping here to the general media to come to a meeting, then the big chief then talks in a general to a general

00:27:02.650 - 00:27:22.989

way to all the people. And he, since he, he has the confidence of their lieutenants, uh uh and he also in a general way would have the confidence of all the people. Now, whether or not they could vote him out of office, what you would do

00:27:23.000 - 00:27:38.390

after you got the thing going, I don't know, I think that after you get something going, then you try to get democracy. Uh uh in another way it is you, you get the strong men who, who, who, who believe it, but who understand that there are

00:27:38.400 - 00:28:01.400

certain techniques that have to be set up. You've got to get the people mobilized. Now, how are you going to get them mobilized before democracy works? It better be mobilized somehow. They just can't be a mass talking because it just because this is the point like

00:28:01.410 - 00:28:17.579

for instance, even in this thing here, you're talking about this thing, this thing when you were talking about this meeting about the minimum wages and so forth women. The thing is going to be so complicated, so detailed and uh to treat it in such a way

00:28:17.589 - 00:28:33.060

to go, to treat all the cases so that everybody, there are most people that are, there are a good number of people even. We'll see how this thing might affect them means it's going to mean a very lengthy, you know, detailed explanation of things which loses.

00:28:33.319 - 00:28:59.650

But in a small group, well, they can get down to the facets of the thing, you know, which directly affect them and individuals can talk and so forth. Um, so that, uh, uh, uh, uh, the one who will lead the people has to be the one

00:28:59.660 - 00:29:27.380

who can, who can, uh, control, uh, the ones who deal and directly lead to people in small groups. He has to have these people then, uh, uh, after he has the people mobilized then, uh, uh, if it's known, well, he's the one that mobilized him generally

00:29:27.390 - 00:29:41.469

like, uh, George Washington or something. He might be elected as president or something. No, he didn't mobilize him. Let me give an example. Well, they were already mobilized the colonies. This is one of the fortune thing about the colonies is that they were mobilized in little

00:29:41.479 - 00:30:04.219

groups. They say this is one of the difference between the South American problems that they didn't have the states, they didn't have the individual states mobilized. Well, how about linen? Well, he, he's he's holding on to this. He's, he's on, he, he on principle uh was

00:30:04.229 - 00:30:22.589

not, well, it finally talks about a final evolution to a time when there would be the real democracy. But that's uh in such a long way away that uh in the meantime, he's keeping that Communist Party pretty limited. Uh uh But if on principle, this was

00:30:22.599 - 00:30:47.560

the purpose of mobilizing the people for democracy. Uh If it were just a technique of getting people mobilized to the point where democracy would work would be rational. Uh The technique, this technique itself, but the limiting of the thing, you know. Uh And yeah, but did

00:30:47.569 - 00:31:02.119

you ever discuss this proc this process with Norman Smith? No, no. And I'm trying to think. I'm, I'm, I'm very f I had it, I had it very clear there. But that's the key of the thing. The key of the thing is, well as your shop

00:31:02.130 - 00:31:25.089

stewards is a basic, same idea. The key of the thing is, is, is to, is to uh uh to have the people in small groups basically. Huh? Well, cell division was the phrase cell division. Yeah, that's it. But the, but the, the purpose of it is

00:31:25.099 - 00:31:40.229

so that, so that uh uh you have a little group, it's really, you have a group of 10 people there represented instead of 10 voices in A B so you have, you have 10,000 people say you have 1000 people in a hall. Now you could be

00:31:40.239 - 00:31:57.810

there 1000 people disorganized people. Each one standing up to say his piece. Now, this fellow with this fellow here might have a same idea, but they're both trying to stand up and say their peace. Well, if those one, th 1000 people in a hall say, uh

00:31:59.040 - 00:32:19.819

uh you had at the bottom groups of 10 who had one spokesman, then their spokesman would be other groups, groups and other groups until you come up. So that this was a process of representation. Huh? These people would have a way of rationally getting their needs

00:32:19.829 - 00:32:43.819

and their notions to the, the uh people who made decisions uh who would be in their representatives uh through a a uh well, a process, you get a group of 10 people and Joe, they sort of Joe sort of holds them together. All right. So Joe

00:32:43.829 - 00:33:04.089

becomes their, their spokesman by an automatic process accepted by them, maybe voted, maybe not voted, but still accepted by them. He is their spokesman until such a time. Then when he says, well, no, I don't wanna just have me. I want uh we gotta get more.

00:33:04.099 - 00:33:20.319

So we should have a couple of other spokesmen here. We're gonna get a couple of others and we need more people. So then these, each one of these fellows starts winning a little group, winning a group that, that will put his confidence in him. Hm. But

00:33:20.329 - 00:33:39.630

he's the fellow who wins. This group has put his confidence in him, has already put his confidence in this, in this other thought. Hm. Uh, uh, no, this, his, hold his position with these people is maintained only in so far as they are able to, to,

00:33:39.640 - 00:34:01.400

uh, either lead, uh, or get things for these people. It's good because a minute after, uh, there's no, uh, there's no inspiration or there's no results. Uh, he doesn't have them anymore. He has maybe he has all his five lieutenants under him, but he got no,

00:34:01.410 - 00:34:17.249

these five lieutenants don't represent their 10 people. So he doesn't have, he doesn't have 50 people under him. All he's got is five lieutenants who are worthless. The people can leave them just like now, you know, unless those people are able to hold on to them,

00:34:19.938 - 00:34:52.489

he's not gonna be just, uh, uh, uh, riding a roughshod. Uh, he's not gonna hold on to him if he does that. Uh, let me tell you about one more, uh, recent, but I don't know whether that would, whether that could work. Now at this time,

00:34:53.280 - 00:35:12.669

I would say this would be part of the long range building process so that you would have, uh, uh, people. So that actually theoretically if you wanna have a general meeting or something, gonna make a big decision, they just go right on down the line, each

00:35:12.679 - 00:35:39.270

person bringing their five multiplying out until in that process, you would have your 1000 people or so, huh? Well, I have a number of misgivings about this process but I won't voice now because we don't have time. I do want to, um, tell you about one

00:35:39.280 - 00:36:11.429

other, uh, likely prospect relief, the immediate future, at least the foreseeable future. Um, I may have mentioned this last time I talked with you. The Norman is, uh, very seriously considering moving the headquarters from Stockton down to Fresno. Did I tell you about this? No, but

00:36:11.439 - 00:36:38.360

I think I heard something about that before. Something I thought you might move. Yeah, the uh the thing is this for the time being, he still is being permitted to run out the string on the grant from the national A FL CIO. I don't know how

00:36:38.370 - 00:36:57.060

much he's got left in the kitty. I'm, I'm not sure anybody does. I think he's being permitted to continue only on a week to week basis. But, um, he may be able to, uh continue another month in this way because he is cutting down on his

00:36:57.070 - 00:37:24.409

expenses here and there. And, uh, I, I think there must be 10,000 bucks or something like that left from that commitment that they gave last February. Um, but as soon as that money is gone, then he's got to try to live on uh, dues which are

00:37:24.419 - 00:37:52.010

going to be almost negligible. Uh I think for the time being and contributions we're getting uh 50 bucks here, 50 bucks there from local unions, from central labor councils. Uh And this will, this will continue in a kind of a trickle not for him to uh

00:37:53.459 - 00:38:16.399

maintain a, uh paper organization. At least now, the reason that he is so seriously considering moving to Fresno, primary reason I think is that, um, the Secretary of the Central Labor Council down there is a fellow by the name of Bill o'rear. You know him. I

00:38:16.409 - 00:38:54.580

think I met him. Yeah. Well, he is about the only, um, labor leader in the state who really cares how about, uh, this movement and he will, uh, support Norman to the hilt. Probably give him free office space. Um, secretarial help, office supplies, utilities and so

00:38:54.590 - 00:39:13.250

forth. He doesn't have a lot of cash, you know, he won't be able to give Norman money to hire organizers and stuff like that. But as I say, on this basis, Norman could keep at least the paper organization going indefinitely. He hasn't got a ghost of

00:39:13.260 - 00:39:40.800

a chance of this kind of support from the, uh, San Joaquin County Central Labor Council. They couldn't care less. So, my guess is that not a month or maybe a little more, he'll probably, uh, go down there, which will leave us in Stockton and, uh, just

00:39:40.810 - 00:40:14.620

the position we were about three years ago. Not quite so well off since, uh, you won't be there. Fred Van Dyk isn't gonna be there. Uh. Mhm. So, you've gotta do some thinking I would like to uh continue working uh in the neighborhoods of Stockton because

00:40:14.629 - 00:40:52.750

of my faith that that kind of approach is the one that makes good moral as well as pragmatic sense in the long run. And maybe we do have uh some considerable period of time within which to work. Um, before Mr Hoffa decides that he wants sweetheart

00:40:52.760 - 00:41:32.520

contracts after he decides that I uh I really think the jig is up but uh that might be two or three years from now. G at the moment I'm still on Norman's payroll. He's uh developed apparently quite an affection for me toward the very end

00:41:32.530 - 00:42:00.449

of the game. No, it's been quite a saga. I remember, I remember the first night that he came out to the A W A meeting with the pictures of himself uh with the blood streaming down his face and we went over to his motel room afterwards.

00:42:08.129 - 00:42:41.620

Yeah, 12 G. Uh I'm sure that we could, we would have Norman's permission to uh attempt to support ourselves in any way we could uh maybe sending out independent uh fund appeals to the liberal and labor groups. Um I think he would probably allow us to

00:42:41.629 - 00:43:15.300

hang on to whatever view we might be able to collect. Um There is a real question in many of our minds as to possible advisability of uh taking a new name for ourselves because of the odor of defeat which may cling to the name. A Woc.

00:43:17.030 - 00:43:43.110

Yeah. Oh Another development. Uh Since last time I talked with you gi I couldn't advise II I, well, just as much I could say Henry, I think you already been hit by this whole thing enough certain that you would not be abandoning the ship if you

00:43:43.120 - 00:44:13.780

were to decide that. Well, looks like it's going down. Uh I would say for yourself, you're gonna have to make some real, I think you should make some judgment about the possibility of things. Of course, you, you are well trained enough to get some kind of

00:44:14.000 - 00:44:41.500

a appointment. It's not so easy. I don't think I'll ever, at, at least for, uh, a few years I won't be getting employment with any of the government agencies which could use my experience. I've tried them, I've tried the State Department of Employment, uh, the US

00:44:41.510 - 00:45:03.429

Department of Labor, the State Department of Health, for which I used to work before I, uh, before I became tainted, you know? Oh, they've got, they've got a Migratory labor project now, you know, with 350,000 bucks at there is, what's his name, Jess? Yeah, he won't

00:45:03.439 - 00:45:23.239

touch me. Uh huh. But they don't give any grounds or any reason for this. I'm sure he does. But he says he's got to, uh, keep in the good graces of the growers that his whole program depends upon that. And he can't jeopardize it for the

00:45:23.439 - 00:45:50.790

sake of one for the sake of one person like myself. Um, as far as the labor movement is concerned. Well, I've been keeping my fish hooks out on that also for some time now, just to see if there were any nibbles and, uh, I sure haven't

00:45:50.800 - 00:46:29.800

been. So, it looks to me as though, uh, quite aside from the question of what I might, um, want to do, I may be almost forced to try to support myself by my writing and this is something that would be very congenial to me.

00:46:29.899 - 00:46:58.149

I'd like it might be a chance to get in. I'd like to give it a try. But boy, there's a real risk for you. Talk about gamble. Yeah. Yeah, ideally, I mean, not ideal but in terms of, uh, a balance between the, the practicalities and, uh,

00:46:59.229 - 00:47:23.860

what I might want to do in terms of my abilities and so forth. I think that, uh, I might find myself spending, say roughly half of my time, uh, working on these various articles and books that I've had in my bonnet for so long trying to

00:47:23.870 - 00:47:48.189

peddle those and, uh, the other half of my time simply, uh, donating my services to the act to be able to live out in Stockton. Well, I, we'll be trying to get advances all for the writing. See, um, it isn't necessarily a matter of you having

00:47:48.199 - 00:48:06.989

to complete a book and then going out and trying to peddle it you write a chapter or two, uh, specimen chapters of your very best stuff and then you try to peddle those and get an advance against the completed work. This is a common practice and,

00:48:07.000 - 00:48:51.439

uh, then there's also, uh, a slim possibility, I suppose that I might be able to get some help from, um, suddenly many national organizations which, uh, claim a jurisdiction in the farm labor field, uh, in which give grants of money for various other purposes. Uh About

00:48:51.449 - 00:49:17.540

six months ago, I could have had as, you know, um, 1500 bucks or something like that from Bill Quinn. I'm sure that, uh, he's not holding on to that in uh, any kind of uh escrow for me. And I have no reason to think that, uh,

00:49:17.550 - 00:49:35.459

if I went back to him now that he was this on this with me. Well, this was at a time during the winter. Uh, you know, Minnie ordered a substantial cut back in November, which made many of us think that this was the beginning of the

00:49:35.469 - 00:49:53.989

end. And so we started looking for other possibilities and I discussed this with quiNINE in San Jose. I guess it was in February or something like that. And, uh, he was interested in my writing a book about the Bracero program and said he was sure that

00:49:54.000 - 00:50:12.300

he could raise $1500 to support me during the writing of this book. I, he asked me what I estimated I would need to keep body and soul together. I give this, uh, estimate. He thought, uh, that you could raise that. In fact, gave me a verbal,

00:50:12.530 - 00:50:43.139

uh, uh, contract in effect, which I had to cancel myself because, uh, I got this, uh, appointment to go back to Washington, which I thought took precedence over practically everything else. I thought that was, uh, mhm. A very important development and in fact, it was, I

00:50:43.149 - 00:51:01.239

had no way of foreseeing that, that, uh, would be, hm, terminated after four weeks because I had been told it would last for the duration of the session. I would still be back there. Hm. If, uh, what Franz Daniel told me had, uh, come true and

00:51:01.250 - 00:51:34.790

been honored. Yeah, I'd be fighting the battle of PL 78 in the Senate at the moment because they're about to take their vote. Comes up next week. Pretty much foregone conclusion though. Well, I, I don't worry so much about how I'm gonna live because something always

00:51:34.800 - 00:52:14.770

seems to turn up. Mhm. I, uh, I guess I look at this kind of like Dorothy Day test. Mhm. Well, I would say that perhaps I could say one thing in your dream of organizing agricultural workers. Yes, it's your calling. And you choose if, say the

00:52:14.780 - 00:52:32.040

A W A does move away and you're there and you remain, you're able to give some time even if it's not three days a week. Even in just a couple of days, but you're just constantly going out among those neighbor getting to know people, talk people.

00:52:32.729 - 00:52:49.989

I think perhaps one of the things that separates you from the people, which is the organization and the position you had and the other personalities and all the rest I think, uh there's nothing like personal contact in people's home, you know, faithfully kept up. But over

00:52:50.000 - 00:53:13.229

a period of time, uh language even is overcome by this kind of thing and little by little person gets to be known, you know, and then I know this is particularly true with the, with, with the Mexican people seeing a person like Cesar Chavez, all they

00:53:14.560 - 00:53:30.669

and they, this is the way they're, they're used to because of the background, they come to put a great deal of after a person has won their trust, they put a great deal of confidence in it. And then, then things can begin to fall together than

00:53:30.679 - 00:53:49.760

if you, then, then you'll find that there will be uh these four or five people who will have begun to pick up the idea of what you're trying to do and who will have, who will have also some contacts in the community. And also there will

00:53:49.770 - 00:54:10.850

be the wide contact that you yourself will be able to have. And then uh uh things could begin to start yelling, you know, at some future date. Well, in these terms, it might really be a good thing if I no longer have to spend my time

00:54:10.860 - 00:54:32.489

in the A O office, uh, as I do now, this is kind of a wall between me and the, oh, sure. Evil. Yeah. Ah, but now this, ah, what exactly I'm trying to think of if I were in your position now in this particular time and

00:54:32.500 - 00:54:50.919

was going to try to keep some sort of a group going, which would be supported by DS. It won't have to be supported by Dews. The Dews will be, will be nice if they're there, they'll be so much gravy. I don't think that they are a

00:54:50.929 - 00:55:16.449

scenic one known because as I say, I am prepared to donate my services. I don't even need money for gas to drive back and forth. How's that? A wind blowing? Yes. Really picking up. And, uh, there will be other people, uh, equally prepared, Raul, for example,

00:55:16.750 - 00:55:38.570

he's gonna continue working just the way he is now no matter what and there'll be, uh, there'll be four or five others. Well, I would say the thing to do is to get those guys together, keep meeting and then just try to expand that with people

00:55:38.580 - 00:55:54.290

who would know what, you know what you, you get some idea and then just start the round of the homes before you have any meetings, just maybe little meetings of three or four people where you just talk it over in a very honest, sincere thing. You

00:55:54.300 - 00:56:09.010

listen to people, let them talk, people like the, uh, like the, like, uh, who is it? You mentioned their name there? Uh, Stella Stella and Marion Wattage where they get a few people together and they talk and you talk back and forth where they're not being

00:56:09.020 - 00:56:29.290

pushed into, uh, you know, aligning themselves where it's not the purpose of the meeting where you come in and you're gonna have to, uh, no, not a word is going to be said about dues. But words, the idea is just uh uh discussing this thing and

00:56:29.719 - 00:56:54.850

making judgments about the possibility about the necessity of it. Wow. And sizing up people and getting these people. I'm telling you about, you get the manual, what is in there and the uh gee whiz, I can't think of any of those fellows names now and they

00:56:54.860 - 00:57:14.590

have their groups and then little by little other groups. So that pretty soon you have through this way, then you begin, you have your periodic being with everybody and everybody, you maintain a democracy by be everybody being able to, to, to vote on some very important

00:57:14.600 - 00:57:34.260

issues or uh the president or something like this in the word, you have to maintain your position in there, you know, as, as the apex of all this pyramid. Uh But then the other, the other meetings would be the meetings of the, of, of the people

00:57:34.270 - 00:57:52.469

in between one group with the ones on this level and another meeting with ones at this level right on up. Uh Because there is where you can get into the detail. But anyway, this is the way those things, this is where you begin, the beginning of

00:57:52.479 - 00:58:37.310

the thing, get the, get the group of people and then start having the, the whole meetings now where it would all go at this point. Hm. Gosh. Are you expecting to see a great increase in Braceros the next year? Well, there's a substantial increase, uh, this

00:58:37.320 - 00:59:01.830

fall. That's a function of the fact. Canneries offered the tomato growers 30 bucks a ton way back last spring. So they planted a lot more acres. Um, but they said they plan it late because they weren't gonna plan it first. Is this a sequence or illustrate

00:59:01.840 - 00:59:24.780

that the, the growers fearful of labor problems? Um, many of them did not plant their tomatoes and when it looked, uh, to the, to the canners as though there were, might be a shortage of tomato growers, tomatoes, which would limit their bargaining strength somewhat that they

00:59:24.790 - 00:59:44.090

made this offer of $30 to encourage them in the face of labor problems that they might have. And so since then on this basis then that the farmers have gone and plant this year and it's late. It's a late crop. Yeah, I like crap. Yeah. And,

00:59:44.100 - 01:00:06.189

uh, and that same sort of pattern might hold true in other crops. I don't know. Well, there won't be the labor, there won't be the labor thing and uh and then there won't be the, I don't think the farmers, I think actually now there's gonna be

01:00:06.199 - 01:00:35.600

gonna see a renewed leadership effort on the part of Zuckerman and others to re reestablished. Now, the Bracero program as the logical and humane and most right, uh rational way of meeting your labor thing. So you'll see a, you have to, uh they're trying to abolish

01:00:35.629 - 01:01:11.979

the shape up and stock them altogether as you have also heard, um which would be good in some ways and not in others in the uh crops where the A woc achieved its limited successes such as cherries. Um I don't think there's gonna be any uh

01:01:12.409 - 01:01:33.439

substantial cut back next season, at least. I mean, I don't think the growers are gonna be able to bring any Brussels to pick cherries because I think that uh so many, so many of the workers who have come in the last two years are gonna continue

01:01:33.449 - 01:02:06.330

to come in. And furthermore, I rather doubt that girls will be able to get away with slashing the price pretty much if I don't. Mhm. Um Another development of course, which is a real possibility in steam uh continued expansion of the Green Card system. This is

01:02:06.340 - 01:02:25.659

uh just a renewed source of, of local family workers. This will be, you know, but not, not, not the way it's being uh perverted. It won't hurt they don't let the workers bring their families with them. No, but aren't they beginning to trickle into the neighborhood?

01:02:28.399 - 01:02:53.520

Well, sure trickle trickle them, but they're using massive numbers of single men to dominate the uh harvesting of apricots in the area. For example, harvesting of olives in the Butte area. Uh These are as dominated by green cards, single, single. But now are these green cards

01:02:53.530 - 01:03:19.189

beginning to filter in around, through the neighborhood and exercise their progress? I agree. They, they, they, to the extent that the green card system is a system of gangs, they ship them back when they threw them just the way they do re arrows. But if they

01:03:19.199 - 01:03:41.070

don't, if they're not around, they can leave, they, they can leave if they find, if they, somebody says come by, come on. There's a good job over here. Let's go. He can go, can often. Not because he's so heavily in debt to the, uh, jackals or

01:03:41.080 - 01:03:49.909

coyotes or whatever you wanna call them. Uh, from whom he had to buy his papers in the first place. He has to do what they tell him to do.