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This is an interview with Dorothy Elizabeth De La Sada, usually called Betty, Betty De La Sada, at her home in San Francisco on March 3, 2005 in the afternoon. The interviewer is Lynn Bonfield. This is a great cover. I love that. Isn't that nice? At first

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when they said yellow, I thought, oh God, but it's gold. There you go. I wanted to start with a, I wanted you to tell me briefly a little bit about yourself, yourself, your date and place of birth and where your parents, what country your parents came

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from, and a little bit on your work history and union work. OK, alright, so. Betty, date and place of birth. Should I start? Sure. You got it running. I got it running. It's a quiet nice machine. OK. I'm Betty DeLasada, and I was born in San

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Francisco. In fact, Lynn Bonfield and I are sitting in a Condominium in Noy Valley which overlooks um Laidley Street, Glen Park where I was raised in 1921 onward and um I've lived in San Francisco all my life, which rapid calculation you can see is 83 years.

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And uh went to Glen Park School, Lowell High School, University of California at Berkeley, dropped out during World War II to work in the Richmond Shipyards, Vallejo Housing Authority and um. Also, um, warehouses that were, um, run by the army which ILW Local 6 was trying

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to organize. And um although I had worked some summers while I was going to college to get money uh for tuition and expenses in local 6 authorized warehouses, I went full time to work at the Army medical supply depot, and I think it was 1943, along

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with my friend Eleanor Fishman, and we were um uh supposed to be organizing civil service workers. Into the union, which was not difficult to do because most of the Workers wanted what was called a black book, which was a full membership in the local. Previously, one

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was issued a red book. One worked um even for a couple of years until I was ample um uh. Room on the rolls of the membership. So we, we, um, we had quite a um An easy time and a very gratifying time during that period. Then

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in 1945, I went down to Tennessee and uh to meet my husband, then Tom Ludwig, who had just been discharged from the army at Fort Oglethorpe, Georgia, and we went up to Mount Eagle, Tennessee to Highlander Folk School, spent a couple of years there. And then

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for personal reasons I left and Tom and I were divorced and I came back to San Francisco and went to work at Hiram Walker and Sons. In, uh, I think it was 19, 0, 47 and uh I was shop steward there until. Oh, for many years

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and I left, uh, The warehouse In 19. 60, I think it was. That's on your other interview, so that will be fine. Yeah. We'll check that. Um-hum. OK, now your parents, my parents immigrated from France. And um in 2004, they actually were both from the Pyrenees

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Mountains of France, but because of, you know, lack of transportation, you know, there were only little donkeys going between the villages, they probably never would have met had they not immigrated. They were from separate villages and they met on the boat coming over and uh I

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have checked with Ellis Island and I have the passenger manifest. It shows what ship they were on and. Uh, how they were in steerage, etc. and they came to San Francisco and worked in the French Laundry at that time people. Uh, would, um, uh, go back

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to their native villages and recruit workers. So my mother and my father had been recruited. Uh, they had to work a year to pay off their passage. And they work 6 days a week. And they met, I guess, and went out to the park or Golden

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Gate Park whatever on Sundays and courted and married in 2006. They were married in February. 1906 and in April it was the earthquake, so they were dispossessed. From their home And they lived in, I think, tents in Golden Gate Park and then in various small places.

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Finally ended up on Redwood Street, which is a little alley in the Civic Center area near where they had a laundry and then in the 1921 or 1922 they came to. Park to Laidley Street to a little cottage which they had identified when they used to

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rent a horse and buggy on Sundays and go out to what they thought was the country. And in the Glen Park Canyon, they would hunt for mushrooms after the rain and um they would uh pick watercress since that this was creek was a pretty full blown

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running creek at the time. And watercress needs running water to be to grow. So they bought this little cottage thinking they were coming out to the country and up on the hills which were not, you know, populated by Diamond Heights or development, they were just dairy

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ranches. And cows. There was also a cable car running from Market Street up Castro to Twenty-seventh Street. When my father died in 19 when I was 4 years old, my mother and I and brother used to take that cable car down to Castro on 18th where

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my uncle had a French laundry called Le Louvre French Laundry. And my mother worked there for quite a few years. Were they involved in unions? I think that my father was involved uh with the French Laundry Workers Union and I donated, I believe some material uh

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about that to the labor archives at San Francisco State. Now I wanted to uh switch to uh Nikki uh and how did you meet her and how did that friendship blossom? Well, I'm not quite sure when I met Nicky. I worked in the RWU for about

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10 years in the warehouse. Division And somehow I met her. Conventions or something. I don't exactly remember when after she met I met her I met her first when she was working for Charles Garry, the attorney, but I didn't really know her well. It was just,

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you know, I knew her from, you know, different labor school or different functions. And then later after she married Harry. She, um, I believe for some years lived on Schrader Street but then moved up to Cronquist Court, which is in Noa Valley and near where I

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was living on Laidley Street. So there were many people in our neighborhood that worked at the ILWU, um, Jack Olson, who was publicity director for Local 6, Dick Wertheimer, who had been an organizer for Local 6, and then subsequently after polio. Uh, contracting polio, he became

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an attorney. Uh, he lives on Laidley, Ralph Dawson, who had been an organizer for the RW, lived up on Duncan Street. Did this group of people meet often and have social events together? Did you and Nicky and Eichman, who lived up on Twenty-seventh Street? Well, there

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were always events. That's OK, just Yeah, OK, so I, we were talking about the people who lived around Lady Laidly, Laidly, and, um, uh, yeah, you know, there were house parties, whatever, but Nicky, I think I saw her more at conventions, uh, when she was married

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to Harry. She usually had some role in the conventions. Often she spoke to the delegates. And it wasn't the role assigned to, you know, women in the ladies auxiliary. It was to the whole membership, and um she always was. An instant that she was funny and

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she was uh uh just so friendly and outgoing and people loved it when she spoke to the convention. When I went to the convention in Hawaii in 1950, she spoke and we saw each other then and as the years went by, we became more and more

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friendly. And then, well, I wanted to go back and uh did you know anything about her from the internment camps to before marrying Harry? You talked about the labor school. I didn't realize she was involved in the labor school. I don't know that she was quote

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involved, but she probably attended events or whatever. Yes, I did know about her internment, and since the ILWU had been one of the very, very few organizations that had opposed vigorously. Uh, the internment of Japanese American citizens and, uh, nationals living on the west coast, um.

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The story was well known, and I think when she went to work at Charles Garry's office, I had some knowledge that she had been interned, but I had no idea until I got to know her personally later the impact that that had on her and how

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old she'd been when incarcerated. What about the impact it had on her? What did she tell you or how did you, what did you learn of her internment? Well, she had many stories that she told many publicly and some privately about growing up and being an

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adolescent in that environment and the normal um Adolescent, uh, pangs of, uh, um, you know, wanting to date and, and coming to grips with oneself identity and, um, you know, even separation from parents sometimes rebelliously acted out. None of that was possible in that kind of

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rigidity and foreboding, forbidding atmosphere, so that she sometimes talked about, you know, the impact of not having boyfriends or dates and the confinement. The quarters, living quarters were very, very narrow and small, and I suppose because of the Japanese. Subculture, there was a sense of privacy

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from, from their culture knowing how to respect one's body space in a crowded environment, but it wasn't certainly uh Not easy as an American Japanese ancestry, uh, young girl growing up in that atmosphere. Did she also talk about her parents and her relationship with them? Do

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you know? I think as I sort of prepared for this interview, I thought later when we became very, very close friends, how we shared a lot about our feelings about our parents who, though they were from different continents, and had been immigrants to this country and

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what it meant to grow up as a child of immigrants and wanting so much to be American. And yet trying to keep pride in one's family and ancestry and uh her difficulties, how could one be proud at times of being Japanese American when you were in

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prison and the terrible conflicts and torturous kind of um uh reflections on this status, uh. Plus, I, I could identify with her so, so much how a girl would feel about her mother who could not speak or write the language, uh, uh, because my mother could

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not, um, Write nor read and couldn't sign her, her name to documents and only became a citizen because my father had become a citizen and Nikki's mother was even a more special case she which Nikki has written about in terms of the um picture bride um

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phenomena in that society and uh. We shared that we were often very ashamed of our parents and their quote foreign ways, their food. And um Nikki would make a joke and talk about, you know, the kind of sandwiches her mother would prepare for lunch for her,

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which, you know, I, I remember my mother. Getting a sandwich of, uh, French bread with lettuce and, uh, pate, which, you know, today would be fabulous. And I wouldn't eat it. I was afraid to eat it. It would smell, In front of my friends in the

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schoolyard who had peanut butter and jelly sandwiches. And I so wanted peanut butter and jelly. And um Nicky had all these stories about the kind of lunches her mother would prepare that just Before she went to the camp, uh, which, you know, we're just so out

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of keeping with what the quote American kids were eating. And um did she say anything about their her mother's and and or father's deaths because I don't see anything in the papers about that. Were they sick for a long time? Did she nurse them? No, you

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know, I don't know. And what about because she left, she left them. After she got out of the camp and went to college, then she left the home, and I, I don't really know about that, that time in her life. But you seem to know about

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when she was working for uh the lawyer Charles Gary. But what did she do or? Well, I assume she was quote a secretary, now called Agnes Assistant. I'm sure she ran the office. She ran the office and she probably um Uh Became almost a legal secretary.

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Uh, I don't, I don't really know. She was in office in professional officers union. That doesn't sound quite right. The United Office and Professional Workers, yes, and that, that reminds me, that's probably also my brother had been in, my older brother had been in that. Uh,

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union, he had been working at Standard Oil and they had tried organizing that company and um he knew people in Uwa and probably had met Nikki and I, I don't exactly remember, but I'm sure that was another link to our acquaintanceship. Now, I wanted to go

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into her marriage with Harry. How did you hear about the marriage or and and how did people in the IWU react? Well one has to go before because Harry had been married to a very uh beautiful and very talented and gifted woman and then those on

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quote the inside, you know, my, my husband had been an official of Local 6 briefly before the um red baiting and the McCarthy era, but people knew that that marriage had um had a very stormy and very sad. Ending, especially for Harry, who was very, very

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bitter over the uh uh divorce because of an affair. That his wife had had and he felt, you know, very betrayed by, um, uh, people who had known about the affair but hadn't told him. And in fact, um, one of my friends, Virginia Woods, who was

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an actuary and worked for Paul Pinsky with the um Um Union pension and health plans, uh, was a friend of his wife's and Harry refused to speak to Virginia. After the divorce, feeling that she had harbored the affair and had allowed Chris in her apartment, which

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was not true, but I guess that was sort of the beginning of feeling that Harry had a bit of a paranoid streak. About that relationship, but he did feel very, very deeply betrayed. And um when he started dating Nikki, I guess people knew about it and

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suddenly they were married. And I think it was mixed blessing, wanting Harry to be very happy, you know, but thinking poor Nikki, what has she gotten into? Harry was much older and uh he certainly had had a marital history that was You know, not Conducive to

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thinking, well, you know, 3rd time's a charm. But they seem to uh settle down and when Kathy came, was born, her daughter, um, I had married uh Ace de Losada who I said was an Officer briefly of local sick who had children and our kids played

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together at some point and uh Kathy became very friendly with Ace when Mickey used to bring her down to Aquatic Park and um Ace had had a heart attack and had to have a a leave of absence from Hills Brothers Coffee where he worked and he

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used to sit at Aquatic Park and uh paint and do watercolors and Mickey and Kathy were down on the beach almost every weekend so. Ace and Kathy started having garage sales up on Hill Street where we were living and um Kathy and Ace became really close

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friends. I'd like to talk more about her marriage to Harry and how, how it worked since he was known to be married to the union, in fact, uh. And there must have been changes to, uh, once Kathy came and then of course again at retirement. Well

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I think generally. Uh, the marriage was viewed by members and, and friends as being um. Uh, a real blessing for Harry and, and, um, in terms of public relations, there couldn't have been a more supportive wife and a union advocate. She was very, you know, articulate

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and verbal and gifted speaker, and uh I don't wanna say there was a dynasty quality, but they were stars and Nikki um enhanced. The role of, you know, a union leader's wife, uh, by her charm, her humor, her intelligence. Um, and she, you know, new delegates

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and all of the locals, and Harry and she traveled a lot together before, um, Kathy was born, and then later on. And um Then later in life as Cathy got older. I think Nikki and Harry had some maybe strains in their marriage. The role of women

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was changing in our society. Uh, uh, the role of, you know, uh, wife that looked up adoringly at the husband, whether it was Nancy Reagan and Ronald Reagan or Nikki Bridges and Harry Bridges. There were a lot of questions about the role of spouses. And um

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Nikki um. Became, I think, a much more mature and reflective person, more so than Harry, although I wasn't intimate with Harry. I mean, I wasn't that close to him to know, but it seemed to me that Uh, Nikki moved on, and in fact, she at some

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point. I think sort of gave an ultimatum to Harry that they would have to go for counseling to save their marriage, and they went to EST, which is Werner Earhardt's um uh self-realization seminars and Harry could not understand how when she could go to a meeting

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in the morning and you'd have to stay all day and not be able to leave the room, you know, for any purpose. You had to confront yourself and others with um. You know, pretty sharp, focused, um, Look at one's character and personality and behavior. So, I

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guess you have to give him credit. He went through that and quote, the marriage was saved, or at least, you know, um. It was obvious that they were able to to work things out together and stay together. And later when Harry was quite ill and left,

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had left the ILW as president and president emeritus. Nikki was the most devoted. Nurse Uh, I don't know if someone will tell on their, Um Oral history, but Sam Cagle once had to come in to adjudicate or argue, Because Harry was such a demanding patient, he

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wanted Nikki there practically 24/7 sleeping on the floor next to his bed, and she at some point called Sam in to um. Help her to get some free time and to be liberated from, uh, you know, caregiver's strain and stress. Absolutely, uh, you've already mentioned his

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paranoia which I which seemed to increase. How did Nikki handle that? I don't know. Um I don't know, except that um I call it paranoia. Because it's a convenient way of of describing, but Harry was extremely sensitive to friendships and loyalties and um. There had been,

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you know, known to all the all of you insiders of the feud between Harry and Lewis Goldblatt. Uh, and then later between uh Harry and Sid Rogers, who was editor of the Dispatcher, and then other people, uh, they stopped talking to David Jenkins, um, they stopped

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talking to Keith Eichman, I believe at some point. Uh, and he, um, He had either real or assumed hurts. To his um Nicky uh stay in touch with the wives of these men? I don't know about other people, but I know that she was always friendly

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to everyone that I knew. Uh, I don't think she ever saw herself as a referee. Nor as a bridge between um oppositions. I think she, she, uh, She was more partisan in the sense of, you know, standing by Harry and um uh since most of the

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people that he, he went on the outs with, if you could say that, you know, had were human and had foibles, it was easy to see, you know, what they could have done actually or imaginary hurts to Harry. And you know, Harry was a legend. I

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mean, there was no one that was more beloved. I mean, there was no one that had changed the course of labor history, not just San Francisco, but West Coast nation, everywhere. How, you know, how could you not stick up for Harry? Now some people have said

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that Harry was unhappy with Nicky's anti-Vietnam War work, although he had provided an office for the Jeannette Rankin Brigade on the 3rd floor at 150 Golden Gate, but that he was not as much in favor of that as she was. Do you know anything about that,

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her peace activities? No, I don't. And she never talked about that, uh. You know, Harry went through, you know, hell when he opposed the Korean War, and he went through a lot in opposition to the US policy many occasions. So I, I, you know, the Stockholm

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peace petition, all of those efforts for peace were um. Supported 100% by Harry and I never, I never really, uh, I guess was in the inside. I never knew about the I was so impressed that you talked about her speaking in front of the membership because,

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uh, how did that come about? Do you, I don't know, but she, I know she was beloved. Yeah, I, I don't know who arranged it, whether he did or the people planning conventions, but Every convention I went to, Nikki always spoke. I mean, Was she the

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only spouse who spoke? That you remember? Well, I, I know people from the court ladies auxiliary spoke. And maybe other people spoke about a project or, but Nikki seemed always, you know, it was like a pair, a partnership. I mean, that's the way from the outside

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that I viewed it. Was she involved in the ladies auxiliary? I don't think so. I don't think she took that role, no. Well then I wanted to switch to her work with Japanese American organizations if you knew anything about her work with uh with uh particularly

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the San Francisco Center for Japanese American Studies where she was program chair and would bring in speakers, Asian American speakers. Uh, I don't have an intimate knowledge of that, but I know she would call me about exhibits. There was an exhibit at the Presidio about Manzanar.

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She would, you know, call me about different events, but she was extraordinarily efficient and busy, and so that, you know, I'm sure she could juggle museums and housework and raising a child and everything. I But I, I don't have any in 1990 she was one of

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the people who did that wonderful exhibit at the Oakland Museum on Japanese American women. I'm sure you went to that. And uh do you remember how in 1990 my husband died. It was a difficult time for me. So, and Harry died that year too. In fact,

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Harry died about a week after my husband Greg died. So, um. Uh, and Greg had been ill before that, so I wasn't involved really. Were you at Harry's Memorial and Nicky? No, I didn't go to Harry's Memorial. Now she was also quite involved in the redress

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movement, uh, the Civil Liberties Act of 1988. I think I'm gonna turn this over.