00:00:12.880 - 00:00:40.300

Yes, OK. OK, this is Harvey Schwartz In, uh, San Francisco. Today is August 27th, 1986. I'm with Sandy Kate, and this is part of the oral history project sponsored by the Labor Archives at San Francisco State to investigate the founding of the archives themselves. OK. I

00:00:40.300 - 00:00:57.210

was gonna ask you how you got involved in all this, you know, how, just very briefly what your background was. And how you got involved in it as well. Um My immediate background that's most relevant to this project is was in New York City. My husband

00:00:57.210 - 00:01:14.150

and I have lived there for 5 years. The whole time which we worked in the labor movement, I in fact had moved to New York to take a job with the clothing and textile workers on their newspaper. While in New York had um come in contact

00:01:14.150 - 00:01:33.780

with Deborah Bernhardt and the of the Wagner archives there, so I was a little bit familiar with labor archives as institutions. Um I was a designer on the newspaper at the clothing and textile workers, but got involved a lot in the editorial workings of the newspaper

00:01:33.780 - 00:01:57.120

and um we always made an effort to Write about the history of of the members and the culture of the members that was always a big concern of ours on that newspaper. So with this sort of Uh, Involvement. I began to be a little bit more

00:01:57.120 - 00:02:17.510

and more interested in. The history of working people. Not in any formal way. It's a very informal. Uh, I left the clothing and textile workers and freelanced with a number of, of unions, uh, mostly locals in the New York City area. For 3 years, um, my

00:02:17.510 - 00:02:39.130

husband and I decided to move back west where we both grew up. And San Francisco was. A logical choice for a number of reasons. And I was given the name of Dave Jenkins by Mo Fonner, who I did some work with in New York City. I

00:02:39.130 - 00:02:54.160

called Dave, rather Bob actually. Bob, my husband called Dave and met with him, and Dave was telling him about uh a cultural project he was working on. Bob said, I bet my wife would be interested, so I went over to meet with Dave, and that's how

00:02:54.160 - 00:03:23.810

the whole thing began. When was this? What year was this? This would have been We moved here in, October of '83. I'm not sure if I met with Dave. It must have been. Yeah, it must have been uh early '84 that I met with Dave. Probably

00:03:23.810 - 00:03:45.400

in January. In early 1984? Yes. OK. Um You can move a little tiny bit closer to it if you want, just a shade. Maybe it's impossible. OK, what, how, how, um, um. Now what did, what, what was presented as a, as what you should do or

00:03:45.400 - 00:04:03.010

what you might do? I mean, you know, how did it, how did it, how did you get involved directly in the creation of this library from there, you know, Dave say, whatever. Uh, Dave had been in contact with Bruce Keiper, who was attempting to organize a

00:04:03.010 - 00:04:22.690

showing of a huge German exhibit that had been produced on the history of American labor. Kuiper had contacted him as a Is somebody who would help him produce it here in San Francisco. And essentially Dave's initial proposal to me was to help was for me to

00:04:22.690 - 00:04:42.360

work with him on that project. Um In terms of looking around for money and space and just to see if it was feasible. As we discussed it, he did mention that he was involved with the archives, and I expressed some interest in. I was curious as

00:04:42.360 - 00:05:01.060

well, what, what, what's that all about? And so he told me a little bit about the background and then mentioned that they had finally raised enough money to hire somebody. To kind of get the thing really off the ground. And asked me if I'd be interested

00:05:01.060 - 00:05:21.960

in. Doing that, I was looking for, I was looking for, I wasn't looking for a job in the labor movement. I was um. Just looking around for different projects to, to move on. Yeah, right. OK. And, um, that's how that started. So did you start fundraising

00:05:22.030 - 00:05:45.200

at that point? I mean, what did you start doing once you got involved in it? My first efforts were involved in getting to know the players as a I'm actually meeting with Labor councils, both the executive committees and then the full. Membership on a formal basis

00:05:45.220 - 00:06:08.480

to. Introduce the archives or introduce the idea of the archives. To get formal, um, Approval formal, formal. Yeah. Formal approval for the idea to the extent that they hadn't already given, given that you're working for the labor foundation at that point, yeah, I'm, I'm hired by

00:06:08.480 - 00:06:30.220

the labor foundation. I'm working out of the San Francisco Labor council. Uh, the money, the Labor Foundation is a separate nonprofit entity. Established by labor movement to fund the archives, that was the initial idea. So the money is, is out of the labor condition that's, So

00:06:30.220 - 00:06:50.520

I went and I, I visited. Oakland, um, uh, Alameda County Central Labor Council, I visited San Mateo, visited Santa Clara. So it was an attempt to get to introduce myself to these labor councils as well as get a feeling for. Who was what at the same

00:06:50.540 - 00:07:11.060

time There was a lot of follow up work that needed to be done on what fundraising had been done. For example, no thank you letters had been sent out for. The What? $4000 in donations that had already been received. So I sent and typed out a

00:07:11.080 - 00:07:28.820

lot of thank you letters. That was before I had the computer, so I hand typed out all those thank you letters to at least acknowledge the receipts of that money. Then um. Began to, uh, there was a committee going at that time of, of people that

00:07:28.820 - 00:07:54.280

had been. Uh, involved in the project. Um, yourself Included I remember meeting at the ILWU. On grants. Yeah. So, uh, the other thing that I began to do was, To work with those people to look, look around at what grants would be feasible to apply for.

00:07:55.740 - 00:08:11.300

Who helped, who was helpful at that time? Can you recall among the labor people or the academics or whatever? In what sense? Helpful with what looking for grants or doing whatever you know you're doing, helping you out and figuring out your way around, suggesting what you

00:08:11.300 - 00:08:31.080

might do regarding grants, suggesting who's who. Somebody like Journey, somebody like, you know, what's it, I guess it presses who are you working with and what's it like working with people and who's who's important. OK, yeah, well, well, with the. In all of those different areas,

00:08:31.160 - 00:08:50.780

um, everybody is supportive. That's. It struck me right off that everybody that I contacted, whether I contacted them cold or they were somewhat familiar with the project, were clearly supportive of the idea and of the project. Me, um, with the exception of, there were a few

00:08:50.780 - 00:09:14.040

exceptions. Well, Dave Sullivan, I think, was very disapproving of me. So he wasn't involved in the hiring of me. It was a thing between between Dave Jenkins and Jack Crowley. That's kind of important actually. It's pretty, I don't quite understand because you, you, you had contacted,

00:09:14.110 - 00:09:33.650

you had contacted Selvin when you first got out here, Dave Jenkins. I may have read something and you said you had, you said Jenkins, you had contacted. He's the one who, OK. Now why wasn't Sullivan involved in the hiring? Do you have any idea? I have

00:09:33.650 - 00:09:51.650

no idea. Uh, I mean, I could, I could guess that, you know, Selvin and Jenkins, there's this historical. I know difficulty, but it seems like it. Do you have any feel for that? I, I don't. As to why? Yeah. How it works in practice or if

00:09:51.650 - 00:10:16.590

it's even real. Oh, I think it's, I think it's. I don't. There might be some ancient political feud that started it. But The way it manifested itself most often was to style. You know, an academic versus a materialistic style. I mean just Jenkins is all about.

00:10:17.370 - 00:10:42.490

The real world of real politic and Salvin is not he's he's a he's a thinker, he's a philosopher, he's a historian, he's at least in this context I'm contrasting the two. So that uh Selvin always expressed disgust at this at the hustle that Jenkins represented and

00:10:42.490 - 00:11:03.830

Jenkins was very irritated by the Impracticality of, of, uh, someone's ideas. That's interesting. OK, now you say you had. It's Sylvan didn't seem approving. Can you? He didn't know who I was. He didn't know why I was there. He hadn't been involved and he admitted that

00:11:03.830 - 00:11:25.110

somebody needed to do the work. Sure. Can I just, oh yeah, excuse me, sure. OK, uh, How did you have problems with uh Selvan over time? That's pretty, it's pretty important. Uh, I only had problems with Selvin in the beginning and I'm not sure I had

00:11:25.110 - 00:11:51.940

problems with Selvin. I think Selvin had problems with me. Yeah. Um, He just plain seemed to resent. my presence, my attempts to Um To, Do what I was what I was there to do. Uh, this was before he was leaving for Europe and he was, I

00:11:51.940 - 00:12:15.870

think, really trying to. To do that I wanted to do a lot more than was feasible at the time. I wanted to start a newsletter. I wanted, I had all of these ideas. And, um, He was concerned with getting the money. He was very focused on

00:12:16.160 - 00:12:39.320

getting the money. And worrying about the activities later and I was trying to Think of Exciting ideas to propose to people that would get them excited enough to give money rather than just say, here, give us money without any kind of Dream to build in their

00:12:39.320 - 00:13:01.920

in their heads. So it was a question of style too, um. He had a funny way of relating to me, and I don't know if it was. A question of male chauvinism or not, I suspect that was part of it. But um he would only talk

00:13:01.920 - 00:13:16.670

to me as he was leaving the room. He would, he would never sort of sit down across from me, even behind his desk and just talk. This was very early on when he first met me. It was always He'd get up, he'd start to leave the

00:13:16.670 - 00:13:33.480

room, and then he'd, then he'd talked to me from, from, at, from the door or halfway down the hall. And we would, we would speak that way for a half hour, me asking questions, asking advice. Him giving me instructions, but it was always as though he

00:13:33.480 - 00:14:00.080

were too busy to be to be bothered by this whole thing. Um It all changed when we got the money. In Sacramento, the relationship changed. He was very, Talking to me after that and I think our relationship worked out well. I see. Um, that's, however, some

00:14:00.080 - 00:14:16.260

time as I recall, it's, 7 months into the year, isn't it? Well May or June or something like that? I started in April. So it wasn't, it was a couple of months later. I'm not sure. Maybe, you know, I've read. Yeah. So many dates recently. So

00:14:16.260 - 00:14:51.010

many letters. OK. Uh, right. Now, How about relations with Crowley? Crowley Was very, very kind. He I could go in at any point during the day and talk to him about anything. He would always I'd knock on the door. Are you busy? Oh, sure, come on.

00:14:51.030 - 00:15:09.300

No, no, no, come on in, even if he was on the phone, even if he had someone there, um. He always took the time to answer whatever questions I needed to answer. Um, make phone calls that needed to be made. Oftentimes he would make them right

00:15:09.300 - 00:15:41.660

there, um. I'm not sure he took me all that seriously. But Until he became really, really ill. I found him very helpful. To me personally, always. Was there, A mellowing of your relations with Sylvan even before the money came through, I mean, that seems like. Did

00:15:41.660 - 00:15:56.980

that problem, did his problem impede things at all? No, it didn't, um, because I just, I didn't, I didn't get upset by it. I mean, I didn't take it too personally. I, I figured that. That there was a history there that I didn't know about and

00:15:56.980 - 00:16:16.640

what didn't concern me. Yeah. I tried to, I just tried to be real patient and, and tried to work hard and tried to essentially win his confidence in whatever way I could. Um Taking his advice. Yeah, did you work with any of the other folks like

00:16:16.640 - 00:16:31.620

Jenkins or any of these people, any of the rest of the people who've been involved in this over time at that time at all as closely as you did with Selvin and with Growley? Well, uh, certainly with Jenkins, um, because Jenkins had the connections in the

00:16:31.620 - 00:16:51.250

city, so I was on the phone to him. Daily, probably, um. Talking about should we contact so and so, add so and so to the list. Did this, you know, I, I heard about, um, there might be money here. So I worked, uh, yeah, Jenkins was

00:16:51.810 - 00:17:20.050

involved. I talked a lot, uh, I talked to the group. was somebody that I would call regularly for advice. I talked to, Carol Schwartz of the Isle. She was very, very supportive on, On a personal level Very helpful with ideas. I talked to Harvey Schwartz a

00:17:20.050 - 00:17:36.660

lot. I remember at the LW Library, yeah, I used to call and ask for advice on how to write this or what approach to use, and you were very helpful. Oh, yeah, no, I, I remember, um, I could always count on you for good feedback. Bob

00:17:36.660 - 00:18:00.000

Cherney is, uh, was terrific in terms of that. The, the whole The Sacramento thing broke quickly after I joined it was within a matter of weeks, so that um that became. The main focus of my efforts and Bob was of course absolute critical there. I was

00:18:00.020 - 00:18:17.730

gonna ask you, um. In reviewing, uh, What happened there, I, I, it seems like your grant effort is going on about the same time as the whole Sacramento thing is coming down. It seems like every, you know, you're involved in. Going for grants and involved in

00:18:17.730 - 00:18:27.590

going for Sacramento kind of all at the same time. I wasn't quite sure which one we should talk about first, but maybe we should go right into. If it seems like 6 of 1.5 dozen of the other, maybe we should go into the Sacramento thing which

00:18:27.590 - 00:18:47.960

is a big show since it is, you know, um, maybe briefly just before that, was there anybody else at state, uh, who you were in contact with who was who was helpful besides Bob besides Bob Cherney? Any other people that's SS State? Well, I knew that

00:18:47.960 - 00:19:05.540

Kurt Aller had been involved, but I, I didn't have contact with him personally. How about uh Ronberger or Joanne Euster where you're No, I had, I was dimly, I think Rhomberg had died by, by the time I came up. I'm pretty certain he had died. Um,

00:19:05.910 - 00:19:24.140

Joanne, I just knew by name, and she was not involved at all at that point. Um-hum. I just seen her signature on a memo. That that was all I knew of her. It was only later that I came to know her. Um-hum. Um, No, so really

00:19:24.140 - 00:19:40.320

stay my relationship with. At that point there was no reason to have a relationship with that because we were counting on the labor foundation carrying the whole. Show OK, so it was really just a formality that state be involved except, you know, Bob Cherney, of course.

00:19:40.690 - 00:20:03.200

OK, a couple more labor names, um, any help from Henning or Cagle or Walter Slater or Jim Herman, any of those people? Uh Well, each of them has a little story. Let's see, Henning, no, uh. Pinning It, it seemed clear to me early on, and I,

00:20:03.260 - 00:20:21.850

I can't recall how I came to know this, but that Henning had problems with, With the archives, as I understand it, uh, he. He didn't have a problem with the idea of an archives. He felt that it ought to be at at Cal. That was his

00:20:21.850 - 00:20:40.470

alma mater and he was on the. Really? On the, What do we Yeah. system He's a regent, is that right, I guess so. I think that's right, the University of California Board of Trustees. Or the board of regents. So it sounded like it might be a

00:20:40.470 - 00:21:06.230

little bit of. I don't know, rivalry. Crowley was an alumna of state. So it was sort of a funny push pull thing um. The other, the other Thing to note here was that Henning. Again, this is 3rd, 4th, 10th hand, I don't know. Uh, had problems

00:21:06.230 - 00:21:28.350

supporting a regionally specific project too. He he represented the entire state. And didn't feel that the state Fed could give money, although they did give $500 initially. Could give money to just to. Big money to just a local effort. And that's, I think, I noticed a

00:21:28.680 - 00:21:48.720

sort of a flurry of letters to get the ILW more actively involved. How did that, how did that finally work out? It finally, it took many, many months. Uh, Jim Herman, what we were attempting to do was to get some sort of a, a mailing out

00:21:48.720 - 00:22:17.440

of Herman's office to various people, suppliers. Um, attorney, arbitrators connected with IWU for fundraising purposes. We never did get that letter. Um, it took a long time to get. A donation from the ILWU that had been promised apparently early on. And Eventually it was Carol that

00:22:17.440 - 00:22:44.950

got the money and it took it was months months months later so he was never. Um That helpful he never expressed. A lack of support, I think it was just a What it was. Um-hum. Um-hum. Eventually, We asked Alannon to sit on, Board of the foundation

00:22:44.950 - 00:23:05.370

and eventually the board of the archives as the ILWU representative and that has that worked out very well because I was interested and would always attend the meetings. OK. Maybe we ought to veer it then towards the, the coming of the, um, Uh, appeal to the

00:23:05.370 - 00:23:27.680

state legislature. No Oh Whose idea was it? Do you know how the decision was, uh, was made to go that way? No, that's a, that's a, that would be an interesting. Who made that suggestion? I don't know who made that suggestion. It would be interesting to

00:23:27.680 - 00:23:51.640

find out. Um In reviewing my notes. There was a call from Bob Cherney to Dave Sullivan. Bob Cherney said the budget's still open. We can play with it. This is the California State University budget. No, we can still play with it. Um Dave Sullivan told me

00:23:51.640 - 00:24:17.460

about it and he wrote a memo to Jack Crowley suggesting. Suggesting, uh, A proposal to go via MailGram to the relevant assemblymen and senators. I see. Uh, this was very last minute. The, uh, subcommittee, both subcommittees in the Senate and the Assembly were reaching the end

00:24:17.460 - 00:24:39.600

of their, of their work. It was a matter of days, in fact. Uh, the Proposal to augment the California State University budget had to go in to the budget that the next day from this memo that Dave Sullivan wrote to Crowley, so. I didn't remember it

00:24:39.600 - 00:25:03.350

being quite that frantic, but I guess it, it was frantic. Uh, we needed to find somebody who would actually introduce the augmentation request. And we. How did you do that very frustrating thing was that The logical person to ask was Campbell, Robert Campbell, I think his

00:25:03.350 - 00:25:23.440

name is Robert Campbell. William Campbell, I forget his first name anyway, he represents, um, Contra Costa County, so he's the, he was the only Bay Area legislator on the assembly education subcommittee, and we couldn't get a hold of him, um, directly. I spoke to his aide

00:25:23.440 - 00:25:41.810

who was cold and not terribly helpful. We finally had Tony Cannada of the Contra Costa Central Labor Council call him and apparently the head of an Aspen local saw him and talked to him. He did introduce the um the augmentation request, but we were never able

00:25:41.810 - 00:26:00.950

to connect directly. 2nd and 3rd hand anyway he did as as as the labor movement requested. So that and Nick Petrus on the Senate side um had no problem and they introduced it and that was that went very smoothly. This is upon request of Dick Crew.

00:26:02.030 - 00:26:19.230

So on the Senate side it was very easy in the assembly. It was easy but frustrating just in terms of getting the mechanics down, sure. Who wrote up the, you know, the proposal and the wording and all that? Uh, Selvindon He wrote the uh what happened

00:26:19.230 - 00:26:42.550

was the mailgram went to all the members of the subcommittee and then Follow up phone calls to try and get things put together. And uh Bob Cherney worked up the actual budget that uh. Well, the initial augmentation request was for $500,000 for two archives linked by

00:26:42.550 - 00:27:06.380

one directorship. Bob Turn looked at that budget. What, what other screwing around was necessary, that is to say, you know, did you, did you have to then go to Sacramento and lobby and, and all that? Yes, yes, uh, do you have, can you? Do you have

00:27:06.380 - 00:27:24.840

any good stories about that? Horror stories or whatever. Well, it was sort of a comedy of errors because. Bob Turney and I went together and neither of us, well, I'm certainly speaking, I had done a little bit of lobbying, but It was so last minute. It

00:27:24.840 - 00:27:42.400

was a technical. We didn't understand the technical end of what we were doing. We didn't understand the process, so a lot of our time in Sacramento was spent with The uh analyst just trying to figure out what, what the process was, what we were supposed to

00:27:42.400 - 00:28:16.070

do next in order to get this. Budget augmentation through. Um Plus we weren't sure of who we had behind us either. I mean they. University system. Was, A little cold at the idea because essentially we're screwing around with their budget. They've already set their priorities and

00:28:16.070 - 00:28:35.720

here we're charging and saying, oh, we want to add something new. So that took a, a bit of, of doing to get, get the university to agree to this whole. Process, um, Yeah, Crowley was Whatever it's called, the board of regents for the state university system,

00:28:35.740 - 00:28:55.690

so that helps some, at least he had a relationship with, with the system and, and he used it to, to get the chancellor to OK this augmentation. Eventually President Wu of San Francisco State wrote a letter of support for But that, that was, uh, that took

00:28:55.690 - 00:29:17.140

a lot of, of doing. Um, the funniest kind of, the funniest thing that I can think of that happened was, um, In the hearing. That Bob and I attended where we were to actually speak in support of the request. And one of the people that needed

00:29:17.140 - 00:29:39.830

to OK this request was the governor's budget analyst. I had talked with him several times. His name is Carl Rogers, and I had met with one of his aides to Review our proposal in depth. They asked a lot of hard questions. Unfortunately, Pretty well prepared and

00:29:39.830 - 00:29:57.330

had good answers for them, but they, we had to justify the money we had to why to. Centers, why now? Why this, why that? Um why did you say no? Why now? How did you answer that? That was, uh, that's a question I'm not sure I

00:29:57.330 - 00:30:11.730

can answer. Um, well, the quest, the question specifically was why are you here right now? Why is this not part of the CSU budget request? Uh-huh. Oh, that's. Why. A great question. This is, you know, this is at the end of the, the process. Where, where

00:30:11.730 - 00:30:30.280

did you come from? What are you doing here? And I'm not sure I knew that I didn't know why. An augmentation of why we haven't gone through the regular process because I had just come on board so we probably invented some. Silly reason. I, I can't

00:30:30.280 - 00:30:48.080

recall what we said, but I know we had to answer that question. Um, It does seem sort of amazing that we would just drop out of the sky in Sacramento and start agitating over something like this. At the last minute. Uh Anyway, so we're sitting in

00:30:48.080 - 00:31:03.570

the hearing and we knew we were both Bob and I were prepared to give our little speeches in support of. Of the archives request. And all of a sudden Carl Rogers turned to us and motioned and said, come on up, come on, this is the governor's,

00:31:04.150 - 00:31:20.790

the Republican governor's budget. Analyst making sure that we, we almost missed our time to speak because we didn't understand how the whole. We were just sitting there and he was motioning wildly, get up, get up here, you're not gonna get a chance to speak. It's all

00:31:20.790 - 00:31:39.310

in a funny way, um. He helped us, he helped us at the last minute to make our presentation. It's an odd one, isn't it? Yeah, the conservative Republican governors. Adolescent, yeah, and I don't, uh, to this day kind of never could figure out why he, why

00:31:39.310 - 00:31:57.720

he did. But um That's, that's interesting. Um, it's a good story. Were there, People you went to then, were there, can you remember who you went to and who agreed to be supportive and who was cool and in other words, how were you treated and by

00:31:57.720 - 00:32:11.830

whom were you treated in what way, you know, were there, were there in the legislature, yeah, right, were there the Dellum's types and then the other and who else was there? Uh, a couple of people were. Very, very helpful. Um, there was a, A guy by

00:32:11.830 - 00:32:32.690

the name of Dan Wall who was uh the Uh, education ana or the. He was an education aide for the Senate subcommittee. And he, uh, he was a graduate of state. He gave us a lot of hints about how to handle ourselves, who to talk to,

00:32:33.020 - 00:32:56.650

what we needed to do to affect. Um, a successful outcome of, Proposal. Uh, in terms of legislators, uh. Agnosis aid was very helpful in terms of the politics of it. Lou Payin was the only assemblyman we went to who straight out said, sure, I'll call. He

00:32:56.650 - 00:33:10.820

wasn't on the committee, but he was willing to make all the calls necessary to support us, and he, he would represent the area that includes San Francisco State. I see. Who would he call? He was gonna make the calls. Who would he call? He would, he

00:33:10.820 - 00:33:29.300

called the other members in the subcommittee. I see of the, um. The most interesting, uh, The person that we dealt with on the subcommittee and again never directly but through his aid was um Richard Katz who represents Polvida. Which is the town where, um, I'm sorry,

00:33:29.320 - 00:33:48.380

uh, which includes Cal State Northridge, the second half of the budget request. Quite early on, his aide indicated that he had problems with the additional funding for, Archives at Northridge. And it was a long convoluted story as to why and what was going on. A lot

00:33:48.380 - 00:34:12.790

of there was a lot of history there that we weren't aware of. And um When the uh. Request came up to a vote. This is in the subcommittee before it was passed on by the whole. House and the whole Senate, he cut. Out Northridge. Altogether so

00:34:12.790 - 00:34:37.200

that the assembly passed $150,000 funding for San Francisco only. The Senate passed the full $500,000 request. And uh when it came time to resolve the two, the difference in committee. His aide made it very clear that we would get nothing unless we Agreed to eliminate Northridge

00:34:37.200 - 00:34:57.400

altogether from the budget and at that point we did and a letter to that effect went out under Henning Henning's signature at this point, you know, I have been working with Tom, I guess at that at that point it was really just me. I was. I

00:34:57.400 - 00:35:13.940

mean, I consulted with. Right. Crowley. I consulted myself. Uh-huh. And I think out of the country that, Consulted with Crowley certainly about it but um and I was working with Tom Rankin out of Henning's office to get the final details taken care of and and they

00:35:13.940 - 00:35:26.450

said look this is this is the bottom line here you can have as far as we're concerned you can have the money if you eliminate Northridge and I remember Tom and I looking at each other and said fine. Uh, we'll take it. We'll take what we

00:35:26.450 - 00:35:40.730

can get. Sure enough, how come the, uh, the rep from Sepulveda was so down on North Cal State Northridge? As I understand it, in the end, it wasn't that he was down on Cal State Northridge, it was that he had very close ties to the university.

00:35:42.030 - 00:36:06.660

That administration and they had their priorities. This was the way his aide explained it. The Cal Street Northridge. Administration had their priorities. Archives was not an. So the cats really. Represented felt that it would be inappropriate of him to push through all this money that essentially

00:36:07.460 - 00:36:26.960

Cal State Northridge did not want this is. They thought they didn't have the space. There were a lot of political problems with the archives. Do you know any of them? I, uh, the director of the archives was a pretty controversial figure, and I think, yes, and

00:36:26.960 - 00:36:46.960

I think what it boiled down to is that That the administration saw the archives as his pet project rather than as an integral part of the university's program. So that essentially, All this money was going to land on, in the, in his lab. Yeah. And I

00:36:46.960 - 00:37:01.780

think that was a big problem for them. Yeah, I'd heard he was. Controversial too. Do you know why it was considered controversial? I've never really had anybody explain it. Well, I've talked to some archivists and, and, uh, he's not an archivist, he's a historian. I think

00:37:02.200 - 00:37:27.190

that there were some problems over that, uh, problems over the handling of some of the, uh, Records that they did Exception. Of the way they were handled or he made promises that he couldn't deliver on because he didn't understand the nature of the archival process. So

00:37:27.190 - 00:37:54.500

that within archival circles, apparently he wasn't highly respected. I think there was a question of ego too. Big eagle. It's been noted before, yes, so but uh. And it it it was um. I, I talked to him several times, not knowing any of this in, in

00:37:54.500 - 00:38:13.980

the attempt to get, get the, get this whole. Proposal organized and get Bob and I were well informed so that we knew what we were doing when we. Would be answering questions and. Found that I was getting. Getting different stories. I was getting one story from

00:38:13.980 - 00:38:30.750

through Katz's office as to what was going on with the archives in Northridge, and I was getting a completely different story from Pitt directly. And I'm not saying I believed one or the other, I just found them so contradictory. Specifically, uh, I was told that there

00:38:30.750 - 00:38:52.040

was a blue ribbon committee investigating the archives. As though there had been some big problem with the archives, Pitt tells me, Oh, it's just a routine review that they do with every project. After 5.5 years. It became very difficult, not knowing, representing, essentially representing. The archives

00:38:52.040 - 00:39:16.100

down there without knowing what the hell was going on. So When it came, came time to cut them loose, I, I can't say that I was heartbroken. Yeah, OK. Um That's very helpful, real helpful, right at that particular juncture when just before. It's kind of coming

00:39:16.100 - 00:39:34.850

through and you're trying to lobby people for support. Is Jenkins involved at all helping you at that time, making phone calls or doing them at all? Jenkins had the best relationship or has personal relationship, I guess, with Willie Brown. And It's very helpful with. Getting Willie

00:39:34.850 - 00:39:50.490

Brown to Do whatever he needed to do behind the scenes to see that this got taken care of and I've, I've heard and read that nothing happened in the legislature without Willie Brown's approval, so I know that there were some phone calls that were absolutely critical

00:39:50.490 - 00:40:09.850

in that regard, probably from Jenkins to Willie Brown. Um Willie Brown's office was helpful. I'm, I, Bob Cherney and I both met with his aide John Lockler a couple of times. And he was helpful in terms again of this is what you need to do to

00:40:09.850 - 00:40:35.180

get this done. Also, uh. At one point, and I can't recall how who gave us this message, but we were told that it would be helpful if There were some Republicans seen in support of the archives, so Jenkins very quickly organized. John Jacobs, I guess his

00:40:35.180 - 00:40:52.890

name is, the head of the San Francisco Chamber of Commerce to write a letter and Hagmore Dickon, who was a big Republican and an Armenian as well, to write a letter. And Carol Maizey to write a letter, so there were some Republican letters that went in.

00:40:53.440 - 00:41:08.060

Archives. Um-hum. From San Francisco. I see. And that may have helped in the end, um, when Duke Magen actually had his blue pencil out. That may have helped to save the archive from being completely blue penciled out. He cut the funding, But he didn't eliminate it

00:41:08.060 - 00:41:29.110

altogether. He, it went in as 150 and then he cut it to I think it went in as 125 and he cut it to, 7565 cut it 65, which is the level that Northridge was funded at through the university budget. That was his justification. Mm-hmm. OK.

00:41:30.960 - 00:41:57.510

Um Anybody else who was key at that point in any way, I mean, perhaps not as much as Jenkins, but. Anybody else who was key. In any way at that point. Well, in terms of the lobbying effort, um. Henning's office was very helpfully. You know, provided

00:41:57.510 - 00:42:21.800

a phone and. Mushy Callan Mushy Callahan apparently did a lot of sort of organizing in the first round of getting the proposal into Um The uh budget. Tom Rankin was very helpful later on in getting the figures resolved in conference committee and just in terms of

00:42:21.800 - 00:42:58.830

keeping his eye on what was happening. And of course, Henning has authorized them to help. Yeah. Um, Seen the lobbying effort. Dick Grew um made a number of phone calls. Especially um to Nick Petrus and some of the. Local people there. Um I can't think of

00:42:58.830 - 00:43:13.770

anyone else. I'm sure there are a number of other people were very helpful, but. OK. That's what I recall. OK. Um, That's really, really helpful. Is there anything else on the legislative effort, on the effort in the legislation that we've forgotten? I've essentially asked you that

00:43:13.920 - 00:43:31.760

before, but. We got that, it seems to me we've covered it pretty nicely. Is there anything else we can add to it? Well, I'd, I'd still like to know who came up with the idea of. I mean it may have been Bob, I suspect, but. Um

00:43:36.880 - 00:43:59.430

Um, just as a little aside. In the Senate side, there were only 3 members of the of the committee. One of whom Ken Maddie, he was a Republican out of Fresno. And very good on education issues and apparently he's been endorsed by labor something like 50%

00:43:59.430 - 00:44:21.340

of the time, so he's not known as an anti-labor labor Republican and I think we were told that he is the only The only, um, legislator that has Duke Majin's ear. All the time. Um-hum. That he is probably the closest to Duke Majing in the, in

00:44:21.340 - 00:44:45.800

the, uh, in the Senate, certainly. And um Chuck Mack, I believe, had had the Teamsters call him. And that he at the at the actual vote, he was absent. Leaving two Democrats to vote affirmative. But um. We had talked to his office and his office had

00:44:45.800 - 00:45:02.590

said he had no problem with our request. I see. So clearly, um, that may have made a difference too in the end. If you ask the question, well, why did Duke, Duke made you, Not blue pencil this out. That's speculation that that Maddie somehow expressed some

00:45:02.610 - 00:45:28.720

some level of support for this project. That's interesting. Um Any of their labor folks Contribute in any parallel way to what Mac probably did here? Noted Henning's office was helpful. I'm trying to recall, um, I contacted. Other labor councils for support. I, I believe. Some of

00:45:28.720 - 00:45:51.260

them wrote letters or call Mike Knight. Is a political labor consultant down in San Jose. I had known some of these guys personally and he made a bunch of calls. I know. So he was, he was helpful. Did he get Jim McLaughlin from Santa Clara? I

00:45:51.260 - 00:46:11.750

don't, I don't think so. I don't think so, but he may have. I, I don't know all that went on, but I know that he, he personally called Alquist and Vasconceles. Um, Mike did, I believe so, yeah. I think the Senate, I think the Santa Clara

00:46:11.750 - 00:46:29.630

County, Santa Clara County Labor Council made a couple calls. I think Britt Hallibert San Mateo maybe made one or two. Yeah. OK. This was all last minute, so. Yeah. I, um, Oh, I think I might as well just turn it over. We're real close. Sure, yeah,

00:46:30.210 - 00:46:31.520

sure. Just let me just, uh,