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The uh radical elders Oral History Project. And uh I'm Bruce Kuiper, uh, today I'm going to be interviewing Frank Rowe in a series of interviews. Uh, for the Radical Artist project and uh the date is June 22nd, 1979. Frank, uh, when and where were you born?

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Uh, I was born in Portland, Oregon in 1921, 1921. OK. What was your class background? Um, My uh father, uh, did a variety of things. He was my both of my parents were born in Portland, uh, my father. Is descended from uh early Oregon pioneers who.

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Uh, crossed the plains on the Oregon Trail in 1850. Um, My father, um. Worked in a bank in Portland, then he founded his own bank down on the coast of Oregon at Nehalem. And uh The bank failed because of uh. The failure of the railroad to

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build there as they had anticipated and uh then my father went into the lumber business. In Coos Bay and that enterprise failed with the depression. Uh, my mother, uh, came from a large Irish, uh, working class family in Portland. My grandfather was a carpenter. Uh, my

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mother was a school teacher. In the elementary schools before she was married. And uh after her marriage, um. She worked as a. Partner more or less with the enterprises that my father. Um, built the lumber business and the. It was never a uh what you might

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call a provider uh housewife relationship was. Uh, equal sharing. I don't know whether that answers what my class background is. I, I think, uh. Um, Insofar as my father is concerned, um, he is a he was a very independent person. He took great pride in the

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fact that um he didn't work for other people. Uh, some of his enterprises were. Um, No Successful in a financial way, but uh he was always a very independent entrepreneur. After his lumber business uh failed with the depression, it was caused by the depression. Um, he,

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uh, logged specialty hardwoods, and they were used, uh, for the trim and luxury automobiles. And on fine furniture and after. Um, The business failed because of the depression. My mother and father started a uh magazine, uh, it was called the uh Western Antiques Collector. And uh

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It was published uh until my mother's death in 1941. And was widely circulated in all of the western states. I, I still find copies of it in reference libraries. So I say that just to illustrate illustrate how versatile he was, you know, he, he, uh. Uh,

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could do a lot of things and uh. Preferred self-employment to employment to uh. At a salary or anything like that. Now how many brothers and sisters did you have? I had one sister, one sister, older or younger, uh, she was 4 years older. Uh, she died

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in uh. 1961, 1961. Well, were your parents, um. Educated, well, your mother was educated, she was a teacher, was your father educated in the in the school system or was he uh self taught uh his uh. High school was the extent of his education. Uh, but

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he, uh. Studied by himself a lot and uh. He was a skilled uh. A bookkeeper and uh uh I think he could have qualified as a CPA, although I don't think he ever had the license, but what he knew about bookkeeping and accounting, he learned on

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his own right now your mother had a college education. No, she didn't she doesn't at the time she taught in the uh Portland elementary schools a uh. Teacher could get a credential with a high school education. OK, um. Describe your uh early childhood. What, what was

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your home life like? Well, I was raised in uh Coquill, which is uh C O Q U I L L E. Coquiel, it means a shell. French word for shell, um, Coquiel is, uh, 18 miles from uh Coos Bay. The uh principal industry of industries of

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Coquill are uh lumber and dairy. Uh, if you visit Coquill today, it looks almost as it did 50 years ago because. Um, Highway 101, when it was improved, uh, bypassed Coquille. And uh we were up there just last year and Coquille looks very much as it

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did 50 years ago. Um, while I was. In elementary school and. Goose Bay, you know, my really formative years, I guess you'd say. Um, my. Memories are mostly of uh. The people who were sort of my heroes with kids in that town, um, loggers were the

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heroes. Um, And uh sea captains were heroes too. And another town uh nearby is uh Bandon and before most lumber was shipped to the. Uh, California cities by truck, uh, coastal steamers carried it. And uh Bandon was a um. Seaport that uh loaded a lot of

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lumber for San Francisco. And um the little um. Uh, coastal steamers, uh, came in there and it was a hazardous undertaking because the bar was shallow and the captains would load the uh coastal steamers up until the ship was almost awash, and some of them were

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actually lost in those little bars um because they'd overload them and the bar would be more shallow than they anticipated, so. Uh, sea captains and truck drivers were the people that we sort of uh admired. Well, that's one of the really strong memories. Any, anyone in

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particular, I mean, were their local heroes or were they, uh? Uh, who in particular? Well, I, I recall in, uh, logging, um, my father's foreman. Um, he had a foreman named Zed Finley. And uh He was a A tough logger, a a guy that I would

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say is very typical as an Oregon logger. And uh I admired the way he could do almost anything. He, you know, he could build, he could uh farm, he could uh. Uh, cook, he can fish and hunt, um, he could, uh, even, uh. It was rumored

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he even had a still. And uh. And the most famous of the sea captains was a guy named Midnight Olsson. A lot of the captains were, you know, Scandinavian, and I was surprised to read in the paper just a couple of years ago that, uh. Midnight

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Olson had retired and was still living in retirement up at Clear Lake, California. I don't know whether he's still alive. That was several years ago. What, what were some of his famous exploits? Well, uh, Abandoned uh by comparison with a lot of places where those coastal

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steamers stop was considered a pretty good port, although, um, uh, most people today would say it was, it's pretty difficult, um. The really difficult places where they loaded lumber were called dog holes, you know, that was a, a term used amongst the sailors. And uh They

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say that midnight Olsen would uh lie on the forecastle deck of his ship. And take soundings in these uh dog holes at high tide to see if he could come in and that's why he uh got the name Midnight because uh. That was used quite often

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in the middle of the night when he would try to bring his um. Ship into one little ports the way they'd load them usually, you know, they, they'd anchor and then they'd run a, a cable from a boom on shore and then the lumber would be

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loaded by cable because there was no uh dock. You can see those along the California coast of uh dog holes like uh that where they used to load like at uh Albion up around that area. Right, Port Orford was like that too, yeah, they loaded, uh,

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there was no dock at that time, and, uh, they loaded all the ships by cable. Well, now was your what nationality was your father? He's, um, Welsh. He's Welsh, Welsh and was an interesting name. Oh, I know when I was in Europe during World War II.

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I found a lot of roads in the telephone book in uh. Southern England and Wales. My mother was very Irish her uh. Maiden name uh was Madden, Madden, uh Bell Madden is. Her maiden name and hers was a big Irish family. Uh, let's see she had

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um. Three brothers. And 4 sisters. And uh Her father, my grandfather was a skilled builder. He was uh uh well known in the Portland area for. His, uh, carving, you know, on the old Victorian walls so they have all that, uh, bric a brac and stuff

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around the eaves. Well, that's what he specialized in was, uh, carving, uh. The decoration for Victorian homes. And I think I maybe have a little of that rubbed off onto me, you know, because my uh interest is in uh wood, yeah, woodcock, right. But now, uh,

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what was your schooling, Frank, uh, yeah, well, um. I um. Went to, uh, as I say, uh, elementary school in Coquille. Junior high school in Eugene. Uh high school in Corvallis, Oregon. I attended Oregon State. College, as it was known then, uh, for 3 years. And

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the University of Oregon in Eugene for. One year, Oregon State College. It was called Oregon State College up until World War II or shortly thereafter. It's Oregon State University now. I was there for 3 years. And my 3 year stay at Oregon State was a. Sort

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of an exploratory period for. Myself, I didn't really know what I wanted to do at that point. We'll get to that in a minute, right? Yeah, let's, let's take your childhood first, uh, in your, OK, your father at the time, uh, was running a lumber business.

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Your mother was teaching school. Uh, and at the same time she was she teaching and helping your father or what or did she have separate, uh, jobs, uh, she, she gave up teaching, uh, soon after they were married, and, uh, her help to him was in

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the, uh, businesses, so your childhood was spent around mber yards, uh, or, uh, along the coastal areas. Uh well, my dad had, uh, uh, most of his logging. Uh, contracted, as I say, this Mister Finley was his foreman and uh. My memory of logging is not

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so much around lumberyards or mills but out in the woods. I used to go out in the woods with them and uh and uh look for. Um, choice. Uh, burrows on hardwood, that's what we were always looking for, uh, maple, uh, walnut, uh, myrtle, uh, trees

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that could be, uh, made into. Uh, top quality veneer and uh, when my dad would spot one, it wouldn't be on his property, but he would uh then make an offer to the owner of the property for the single tree or whatever and then um. We'd

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move in and cut it down by whatever uh method was needed. Uh, sometimes it would be cut by hand or sometimes, uh, where there were several to be cut they'd, uh, use a steam donkey that's in the days when they still use steamed donkeys and uh.

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I even, uh, even as a just a kid in elementary school a couple of times served as a whistlepunk is that right? Yeah, you know what a whistlepunk is, uh, the whistlepunk is the guy who, uh, uh, signals the uh the crew when they're they're you're

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going to, uh, pull. A a log on the uh by the cable that uh did they still have skid rows in those days? I mean, uh, yeah, they used those sometimes. Did they did they use the rows where they had logs, uh, you know, embedded in

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the ground side by side if necessary, right, but as I say, my dad's operations weren't that big. It was usually, um, uh, usually it wasn't that. Big to require the use of that much equipment, um, oftentimes just a truck and a handsaw was all they needed

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um. But a whistlepunk basically is someone. Who stands at a point where he can see both the donkey and the log. And make signals to the operator of the donkey. OK. And uh you had a variety of different hand signals uh that you used or where

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they can't remember. No, they were, they were sound signals. There was a whistle. That's right, yeah. It was a whistle operated by steam. Now, would you do that during the summer? Or would you do it year round? I mean, uh, how much time would you spend

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out in the woods, uh, as far as my dad is concerned, uh, they worked whenever they could, um. There were in that area where it rains a lot, uh, there were times when even. The loggers can't get out, you know, um, but, uh. So far as

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my own participation, it was only in the summer I recall, right, because I was in school. Well, now, uh, do you have any memorable, uh, experiences in your youth that, uh, you feel had an impact on your later life in terms of shaping your, your direction

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and your outlook? Well, you ask uh a while ago what my class background is, um. I was raised amongst uh hardworking people. You know, and, uh, I have a a respect for him to this day that I think probably uh came through that association, you know,

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the people of uh that part of Oregon. Are um. About as hard working as you'll find they, they. They've become prosperous by. The uh Natural resources of Oregon and what they've done with it. Uh, I also, um. You know, a lot of these things uh uh

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form my later life in, in retrospect, more or less. I, I recall incidents in my childhood that um I didn't really understand completely at that time, but which uh. Angered me when I uh thought back on it, uh, for example, uh, I think I've told you

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already that uh. I remember how one night my dad came home and told my mother that he'd been invited to join the Ku Klux Klan. Well, a lot of people don't think of the Klan as being in Oregon. But uh it was, it was rather strong

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in the twenties and the, the uh. Target of the clan was to. Uh, Catholics and not uh blacks because there weren't any blacks. Well, at that time. Uh, I, I can still remember that and what a long discussion there was in our living room and. I'm

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proud to say my father didn't consider the invitation. But uh then when I thought about it later. You know, when I was 25 years old or so, it really angered me to think that uh. Uh, there's that kind of split personality in Oregon. It is a

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state of, uh, very, uh, strong splits, I think, uh, I've always observed that on the one hand you have the. Working people. Who um are generally progressive and uh. On the other hand, you have the owners. And and the split is really. Uh, more marked up

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there, I think, than it is, or it's more apparent than it is down here. That's interesting. Yeah, yeah, there's been a lot of, uh, discussion about that, and I know in, in literature and things you, you read that Oregon is, uh. Uh, has a reactionary streak

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that is capable of uh. Giving the clan a. Place and it also is uh one of the strongholds of the wobblies so there's the, the split that's right well uh now were you uh raised in a religious family, Frank? Uh, my, um, mother, uh. Mother's family

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attended the Presbyterian Church and uh my father's family attended the Unitarian Church. Um, We weren't uh You know, too strict about religion. Uh, My aunt in Portland, my uh father's half sister. Was probably the strongest. Person in our immediate family in terms of uh religion she

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um was the uh librarian at the Unitarian Church in Portland she was 30 years or something like that. And uh It's curious uh in the Bay Area today. Uh, Unitarian, uh, churches, uh, are informal and they pride themselves on their informality. My recollection of the Unitarian

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Church in Portland. Was of a more um conservative church. In fact, my aunt who was such a good Unitarian. In her personal life was uh an absolute. Puritan, you know, no smoking, drinking movies on Sundays, uh, she walked every place, uh, so she was one of

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the really, uh, strong. Religious influences I guess you'd say, but um. Uh, my uh mother and father. We're not uh Uh Too disciplined in their attendance at church, were they uh political people? In the sense that they have a a a clear political outlook, well, no,

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they didn't. But, um, another interesting thing about my father, I think is that as he grew older. He grew more uh radical in his point of view, what what might be called radical, um, I think when he was very young. He thought he was gonna. Make

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a million dollars as a businessman. As he became more and more disappointed with the. Laissez-faire capitalism and his uh ventures in it. Uh, he became cynical and he began to recognize, uh, why he had failed, and that was a big influence on me. We talked about

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that. He and I talked about it a lot. Was he influenced by the Horatio Aera legend as a young, young man? I think that's what a lot of young people, uh. We're influenced by in that time in our history. But um. He was never um actively

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associated with any uh. Political groups, um, did he vote? Well, he not only voted but uh he did actually um um serve in a political office at one time but as a nonpartisan candidate, I believe, um. He was in the Oregon legislature in the in the

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in the assembly for one session and this was um. When he um. Uh, had his bank in uh Nahala. And you have to bear in mind that Nehalem and Nehalem Bay in those years 19. I think it was 1913 or something like that was very, very

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remote uh the uh the only way you could get to Nehalem Bay. Except by uh About a 3 year, uh I mean a 3 day trip by Buggy was by ship, you know, go down to Astory and then down to Nehalem, and I suppose the total

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population of Nehalem Bay, all the farmers and everything was about, uh, I would just make a real rough guess, maybe 3 or 4 1000 people. Well, anyway, my dad was elected the. I believe it was the first representative of that area, uh, assembly district or whatever

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they call it, to the Oregon legislature. And I think he was elected as a nonpartisan candidate, you know, he wasn't a Republican or Democrat or anything like that. And uh So he served one session in the legislature. Well, what, uh, what political discussions do you remember

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your parents having when you were a kid, or, or did they discuss politics, uh, well, uh, the discussions, as I say, usually centered around, uh, his, uh, disappointments as a. Um, Entrepreneur and uh the discussions also uh. Pointed at the. Uh, owners of, uh, things in,

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in Oregon, the railroads and the big lumber companies and uh. Um, the banks, the, the people who had the capital, uh, to, uh, sustain. Uh, losses and those who could make uh decisions, uh, that would put smaller operators like my father out of business and, uh,

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I don't think um he identified them in terms of uh uh political party Republican or whatever. But uh just as uh owners and uh was it primarily lumber interests or railroad interests? Well, the reason I think uh as I say, the reason his bank in uh

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Nehalem failed was because Um, With World War One and the prosperity in the lumber industry that existed then, it was generally believed that the uh uh railroad was going to build a line to Nehalem, and that's why, uh, he started his bank. He was gonna cash

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in on that. And then uh Aro Frank, I believe it's Southern Pacific Southern Pacific. Uh, after World War One, there was a recession. And uh the uh railroad decided not to do it. They built the they built a railroad but not to Nehalem, but on the

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other side of Nehalem Bay to uh Wheeler. And um In those days, uh, banks weren't insured like they are now, and um. The bank Had a run what they call a run, you know, and um. Ah, His bank failed and uh he. He felt very badly

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about that because uh um. Good friends lost their money in his bank, you know, farmers in that area. And I didn't know until after his death, actually, that. He, uh, one reason we were so poor the rest of our. Lives, you know, the main reason was

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the depression, but another reason was that he was making small repayments to all these people for the rest of his life, you know, the ones who had lost money in it and um. When I was back up in the halem just a year ago. Um, Of

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course, I looked around for uh. Persons who might have known him and you won't find very many people uh. Who knew someone in 19 for 13, that's for sure, but I did find one old man. And it was really funny, uh, this old man must be

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90 something now. And I knocked on his door and uh. He uh came to the door and I said, my name is uh Frank Rowe. Well, my father's name is the same as mine, Frank Rose. And this little old guy peered at me and he said

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the hell you are. And uh I said yes, and he said, well, he was our first banker in the halo. And I said, well, I'm his son. And uh so he welcomed me and uh. We talked for a couple hours. And uh I felt so good

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about it because. He said I had money in your father's bank, and he said I lost some of it, but he said no one here really ever felt that uh he was trying to do us in, you know, he said that's just the way things were

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in those days, you know, before bank insurance and. That sort of thing Well, those those are the things I've lived with, you know, and heard my folks discuss so much and uh. Uh, although it's not a. Active political thing, uh, it was a radicalizing influence on

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my life, I think, you know what I mean? Yeah. Did your mother have the same, uh, uh, feelings in the sense that did she view, uh, the, uh, big industry.