00:00:01.580 - 00:00:25.840

It may, there's this also when the uh employers uh fine braceros uh who may consider to be very good work, they will just keep on renewing the contracts. Uh However, this isn't true of the mass of the, does it, this is true only of selected individuals

00:00:26.739 - 00:00:45.080

uh for instance, may be given AAA priority card, so that in returning the following year, they will be given preference in the grant and the contracts, you get that kind of stability, then you get another kind of uh of uh of stability where for instance, in

00:00:45.090 - 00:01:09.760

the Imperial Valley, uh where a large uh farms have been using this, the ice for 567 years, they've developed uh very well trained crews. This is for the, for me thinking and they will arrange to have these men return to, to the same place year after

00:01:09.769 - 00:01:30.949

year. So you get that kind of of stability also. But in a crop like tomatoes, uh the the the turnover is uh large and, and fast. And at the time, you had a spokesman that meant he would be speaking for accounts. And uh if you were

00:01:30.959 - 00:01:51.069

thinking of, of the problem in relation to health services. You have exactly the same situation you go into an area like, uh, Tracy, for instance, uh, in early October, uh, you may have as many as 20,000 bucks ever for picking tomatoes. Uh, six weeks later, uh,

00:01:51.339 - 00:02:14.940

two months later, you may have two couch 59. You should, these are very substantial problems, but I would hate to have to admit they were insuperable ones. Oh, I don't think they're in Super Bowl by any means. I think, uh, the, the, what at the moment

00:02:14.949 - 00:02:35.649

seems to me to be in Super Bowl is to persuade, uh, the uh uh federal authorities to get rid of certain people in Washington who have labor. How did I think the very judicious following of two or three high officials in the Department of Labor would

00:02:35.660 - 00:02:52.949

do a world of good to make these technical health problems, civil liberties problems, economic problems a great deal less than Super Bowl than they would a would a change in administrations help or are these carryover from? What is a bipartisan problem true under the Democrats. It's

00:02:52.960 - 00:03:17.410

true. Under the Republican. The same people have continued to, uh, operating in this matter since 1942. These are the people in the uh employment security. Well, the, the Bureau of Employment Security is, uh, is charged with the administration of the program and it is a part

00:03:17.419 - 00:03:45.059

of the Department of Labor and they work very closely. Of course, with the Department of, uh, Employment of California of which, uh, intervenes in this program through the farm placement service in Sacramento. And it's dozens and dozens of field agents is the Federal Department of Agriculture

00:03:45.070 - 00:04:02.389

involved at all. No, they used to run the program. Uh, but at the moment they have nothing to do with it. Uh, they would like to because, uh, it would mean a considerable chunk of federal money to administer. It would mean more jobs for more deserving

00:04:02.399 - 00:04:18.359

Republicans in agriculture rather than in labor. Uh, but the fact is that they don't have control of the program at the moment. It's in the Department of Labor is the Department of Justice involved at all. No, not directly. The Department of Justice plays a very minor

00:04:18.369 - 00:04:36.429

role. They are in charge of the security check uh, down at the border and, uh, uh, they, for instance, they have to be informed when Bracero breaks his contract. Uh, the Department of Justice has to be, uh, the report has to be filed with the Department

00:04:36.440 - 00:04:58.149

of Justice immediately and then they have to pick up the guy and, uh, process him. But these are matters of law enforcement rather than economic, uh, administration program. I think my machine is about to give up, getting hungry. Yes, I, uh, I'll just ask you a

00:04:58.160 - 00:05:23.790

couple of summarizing questions. Um, do you feel that there exists here a, a viable problem or problems? In other words, do you think that we are on a fruitful track because as I say, we still can change and perhaps study, drop it well, uh to be

00:05:23.799 - 00:05:55.190

utterly frank with you. Uh I would suggest that if you have money to spend on health problems in California, the minority group that you try to work on a pro a program uh for the shoestring communities of the west side of the Central Valley. These are

00:05:55.200 - 00:06:14.579

communities of our own domestic refugees, many of whom have been displaced by the Bracero and the wet back. And they have moved over to the Piedmont, the stretch of some 300 miles from los volumes down to the thatch the rain. And they set up these shoestring

00:06:14.589 - 00:06:39.549

communities, just long rows of shacks and tents and huts and beat up trailers. Uh This is a rather stable population economically. They are, they are about on par with the Bracero, if not with the wet back. Uh They are English speaking communities. Some are Negro, some

00:06:39.559 - 00:07:02.440

are Mexican, some are uh um composed of dust bowl refugees or their descendants. I think then you've got something that you can bite into and continue biting into without uh uh the danger that your problem will be snatched from between your teeth by somebody conferring over

00:07:02.450 - 00:07:18.329

to Tokyo because the problem basically, I think will still remain in as much as you say if they do bring the Japanese the wet back there. I I don't mean to suggest that if there are vs or Japanese who uh whose health needs are not being

00:07:18.339 - 00:07:35.739

taken care of, but they shouldn't be taken care of. They should be by all means, I've, I've met uh enough uh cases in camps men who were in very, in a very, very bad condition. And I would say that they're just as entitled to medical attention,

00:07:35.750 - 00:07:52.950

good medical attention as anybody else. But the point is that you've got administrative problems to hurdle before you can get at those men. Why have you been so interested in those people imported into the country? Why not some people that are already here? What is the

00:07:52.959 - 00:08:25.940

reason for that? I will tell you sit in the car. Part of the history of our little project is that it began as a, an attempt to bring together people from several departments of the university such as Anthropology, Sociology and Economics uh together with people from

00:08:25.950 - 00:08:50.969

the School of Public Health uh to see if they could work together as an interdisciplinary team. Well, the anthropologist who is on our committee is Doctor Foster George Foster, uh who has done a good deal of field work in Mexico. I'm the matter of folk medicine.

00:08:52.210 - 00:09:10.260

He's uh I suppose one of the country's outstanding specialists on this on this matter. And so uh taking into consideration the fact we had this uh expert with us, we, we thought it would be very nice if somehow we could incorporate into our problem, the sorts

00:09:10.270 - 00:09:35.520

of things on which he would be expert. And um for that reason, in part, uh we were thinking in a bygone stage about the *** since they were representatives of the uh Mexican culture. And now, I, in other words, we had, we had thought that before

00:09:35.530 - 00:10:01.950

the project was over, we would get down into Mexico itself to see um what happens after these people return home? Um are, are their health attitudes changed by their experience in the United States? And if so, do they remain, do they remain changed? Actually, pardon me?

00:10:01.969 - 00:10:21.760

They're sick of the whole thing. Let me interrupt you to, to point out to you something that I have said to uh students from UC and from UCL A and from Stanford who have been said to me by friends of mine who teach them uh serious

00:10:21.770 - 00:10:41.150

students, all of them candidates for phd who have wanted badly to do basic studies in this field. And I feel in all honesty that I have, I have to tell them this and this applies to your project very, very clearly. This is an area in which

00:10:41.159 - 00:11:05.940

there is a, a previous issue, an issue of access to information for 15 long years. The federal and state agencies that have been administering this program have been doing it knowing full well that the primary object of the Bracero program is to cut wages in agriculture

00:11:05.950 - 00:11:25.700

in this country. And to prevent the organization of farm workers, domestic farm work. This is the ulterior corpus, but they can't say so. So they have recourse to something that, that is becoming a very prevalent evil in our government. That is the attitude that public agencies

00:11:25.710 - 00:11:47.770

and public agents who have certain information on public matters may hold on to it and sit and not release it. That's been our problem with them. No, if you set up a project to study the health needs of the uh you're immediately immediately up against this

00:11:47.780 - 00:12:12.340

fact, the federal and state agencies and the Mexican government and the United States government and the corporation farmers in the Southwest all unanimously agree that there is no problem and they will show you the International agreement and the uh the, the uh insurance contracts and they

00:12:12.349 - 00:12:26.909

will stop there. That's their evidence that there is no problem. Now, the minute you assume that there is a problem, you want to go out into the field to uh to uh bring help to these people, to take care of them, to see that they get

00:12:26.919 - 00:12:42.700

proper medical treatment. You're going to have the problem that we have had, namely to document and prove in advance. The problem exists. This is a political problem. This is not a sociological or a or an economic problem or a problem of historical research. This is a

00:12:42.710 - 00:13:04.340

political problem. Now, if the University of California wants to give its its interdisciplinary research team, a real experience, you know, and you set up a program to study and define the, the health needs of the Laces and the French camps. Uh so that you may spend

00:13:04.349 - 00:13:20.609

money in taking care of the sick man who need it and ought to have it. And if the University of California is willing to give you full support to go where the information is to which you are entitled a serious students, then you're gonna, you're gonna

00:13:20.619 - 00:13:35.659

be getting some work. But this is what you're going to find. You assume that there is a French camp which I have taken you to see, let's say over here in the Delta country, I've taken you let us suppose to a camp where there are 50.

00:13:35.669 - 00:13:49.099

But I say those and we find that five of them are sick that the camp is a dump. But these men are getting pink pills for all sorts of ailments and you decide here's a problem. Here are some men who need medical attention. You will first

00:13:49.109 - 00:14:10.940

have to uh go into royal battle with a farm. Employment service of the State of California B, the Bureau of Employment Security Region 10 working out of San Francisco. See the Department of Labor D, the Mexican Council in your area and e the Mexican government who

00:14:10.950 - 00:14:28.570

stands behind it don't force them a to admit that there is a camp at that particular spot and be that, that, that that camp is, is, is a sump and should be closed and see that there are sick men in it. Now, once you've gone through

00:14:28.580 - 00:14:44.390

that battle and establish the fact, then you may go in with your doctor and take care of a guy who's suffering from an acute bellyache. You know what you pardon me? Did you really have, have any idea in your particular plans of going to sick men

00:14:44.400 - 00:14:56.900

and taking care of them or is this some sort of a research thing which you write up and don't really take care of the sick men? Did you really plan to take care of the sick men in your study? Well, no, there are no doctors to

00:14:56.909 - 00:15:13.440

be connected with the study. This is to be gathering of pertinent information upon which health programs can be erected and if there are no health programs forthcoming from it, we will be very much disappointed. There you are there you are. That's, that's, that's the problem that

00:15:13.450 - 00:15:30.780

I have. You see your, your assumption is based upon your reading of my report that there is a health problem that needs to be stable and c and, and, and next to bring such a program into existence, there is a, a very uh much concerned agency

00:15:30.789 - 00:15:50.000

involved in the equation as I see it. But you haven't mentioned, these are the, these uh would be the people who we hope would be implementing our recommendations, namely the health departments at the local level. Um, I wonder if perhaps, uh, in some cases, at least

00:15:50.479 - 00:16:03.710

they might be above the political storm and strife. Although of course, in many cases, I don't know, I, I can't answer that because I have had very little to do with the health departments, uh, of California. I've never reported these cases to them because we had

00:16:03.719 - 00:16:19.179

an international agreement which specified, uh, very, very clearly to whom you go with complaints and, and information and data and so forth. Uh So that we have never had recourse directly to the health authorities. But what you might uh you see these departments have a legal

00:16:19.190 - 00:16:38.409

grant of power that whenever a condition exists within their jurisdiction. And I'm speaking now of the county health Departments for the most part, um a condition exists which either does endanger or might at some future time endanger the health of the community as a whole. They

00:16:38.419 - 00:16:51.409

have the uh the legal right. They have the responsibility to go in and do something about it. Well, I'll tell you what will happen if, if, if that actually proves to be the case and you find for instance that uh a local health office in the

00:16:51.419 - 00:17:10.239

County of uh San Mateo or Santa Clara is advised that there is a camp at X crossroads uh with these and these such and such conditions. Uh And your health officer does make an inspection and he finds that your reports are true. Uh I'll tell you

00:17:10.250 - 00:17:30.790

what happens right away. The camp is closed and moved to another location. Uh So then you face the choice of whether you become assistant compliance officers chasing down these uh migratory camps, which has been my function for all these many years. Uh or whether you uh

00:17:32.479 - 00:17:48.020

uh have some other device by which you can nail a camp down and keep it there. Bring in uh uh your health authorities uh define the problem, prove that it does exist and then appeal to some other agency to come in there with a actual medical

00:17:48.030 - 00:18:06.979

services. But your whole premise to see is that there is a problem and the entire premise of the growers and the combined government agencies that support them is that there is no problem. And when that happens, you have a political issue, not a scientific. And your

00:18:06.989 - 00:18:21.589

first barrier in defining or getting at the issue is that you can't get up the information officially. For instance, you go to uh you, you would go to the uh farm Employment Service Agency and say uh would you let me have a list of all the

00:18:21.599 - 00:18:42.560

employers that you have in this county who use Mexican nationals can't have it. I uh I am challenged by all. You say more than I am discouraged and be careful. Don't be challenged too much. I and I'll tell you part, part of the reason why I

00:18:42.569 - 00:19:06.739

am not completely overwhelmed by it, although I, I think I appreciate the difficulties involved. Um I think that there will be some farm placement representatives who will Cooper, who will cooper. There's no doubt of that. I know some, some of them won't, but I won't mention

00:19:06.750 - 00:19:27.390

my name over your mic by name over your microphone because I would rather remain. But some of them will. I've already talked with one of them. Some of the compliance officers will be relatively fearless men uh who will dominate things as they, as they exist. Some

00:19:27.400 - 00:19:46.319

of them will um I expect to be in a position to travel around the state a good deal and, and in my travels, I would hope to find enough persons of this type to give me the basic data plus, of course, the the really fundamental source

00:19:46.329 - 00:20:07.069

which we haven't yet mentioned, namely the Braceros themselves. I am in a uh an unfortunate position of not being able to talk with him as you did. But our grant is such that I will be able to hire interviewers and in such ways as this, I

00:20:07.079 - 00:20:29.680

hope to get quite a, I don't want to discourage you from undertaking this at all. Uh In fact, I'm I'm delighted that uh that you, that you and your colleagues and your university have an interest in this and this helps uh the bero if, if it

00:20:29.689 - 00:20:44.060

doesn't help anybody else, it will help him. It's that this is one more group of people in this country who are interested in his welfare and he needs, he needs the interest of people like you and your colleagues. So whatever you can, uh whatever information you

00:20:44.069 - 00:21:05.170

can get in the symbol and uh publicize in a persuasive form, it's all to the good. But I am uh taking the liberty of pointing out to you that you are stepping into a very controversial field in which at times you will need the slug, you

00:21:05.180 - 00:21:18.869

will be ordered on camps. You will be told that you're a liar because you are at a certain camp on a certain night and you saw such and such and you reported it back to the university. And three days later, the camp wasn't there. What are

00:21:18.880 - 00:21:38.290

you doing going around spending grant funds, cooking up imaginary camps? 26. I don't think these problems uh will be difficult for you, but they're, they're, they're part of your, of your, of the political picture. Uh Plus the uh the very obvious fact that you will have

00:21:38.300 - 00:22:00.229

on your neck. A lot of people who are determined to keep up the pretense that this is a beautiful piece of international co-operation whereby American living standards are being grafted on the, the peons of Mexico and whereby we are saving crops that are threatened with drastic

00:22:00.239 - 00:22:18.459

destruction. Yes. Yes, we prove this. This is a myth. It's cost millions of dollars to build it and maintain it. And uh you uh start messing around with little research techniques uh into that myth. You're going to have uh the opposition of these people. However, you

00:22:18.469 - 00:22:39.010

will have the support and sympathy. On the other hand of many people throughout the country who will be all for it and they will encourage you, they will give you support when you need it. I want to say just one more thing before I break this

00:22:39.020 - 00:23:12.349

off. And that is, I hope that I don't appear to be in the position of aiding and abetting and perpetuating in any way. A uh a program which is operating to the detriment of the American labor movement. I, I suppose that uh we, we might put

00:23:12.359 - 00:23:41.250

it this way so long as these people are here. Uh humanitarianism impels us to want to see that they uh they live decently, but I do not envisage our program at least as being dedicated to the proposition that they should remain here. No. And you can

00:23:41.260 - 00:24:13.459

rest assured that they won't legally for this very simple reason, the uh the corporation farmers of the State of California for 100 years, uh have seen to it that the labor force remains chaotic and under constant turnover uh if by any chance the same, but IOS

00:24:13.469 - 00:24:37.260

were to remain in employment in California for three or four or five years and uh became familiar with our ways of doing things and uh began to, I get a little wife and, uh, occasionally, uh, stood up for their rights under the contract, the growers themselves

00:24:37.270 - 00:25:00.550

would take care of it that these people didn't stay here very much longer. So there's nothing you and I can do to, uh, uh, ensure that these people would remain here as permanent employment. The minute they become accustomed to the American concept or standards of fairness

00:25:00.560 - 00:25:30.689

and equity and procedure. Uh, at that particular point, they would become undesired and a new labor force. So green, uh, undefended, you know, regular people would be brought in. And if you go ahead with your program and you want any uh assistance from us, we'll be

00:25:30.699 - 00:25:57.530

glad to give it to you. You are the uh sole representative of your union in the Bay area. And so are they? Yes, not only the Bay area, the Southwest, uh, and you are out in the field a great deal. Well, I haven't been in the

00:25:57.540 - 00:26:19.709

last two or three months but, uh, when I'm, when I'm, uh, regularly on the job, that's my work to be out in the field, keeping abreast of these conditions. So at those times it would be difficult to make appointments. Uh Sometimes I'm away from home two

00:26:19.719 - 00:26:52.540

months. You have the stretch half. There's no one in Southern California. No, that you can contact except the compliance uh, officers themselves and the Extension Service officers, Bureau of Employment Security People, Mexican Council. We just have to follow. We better let these people get this. I'd

00:26:52.550 - 00:26:54.079

like to follow you around the fields.