00:00:00.009 - 00:00:20.399

OK, um, we're on the air. OK. Probably the best place to start would just be how you came to Watsonville and how the TDU chapter that got started. Well, um, uh, I came from, uh, uh, Berkeley in 1970 to this area to work in the GI

00:00:20.399 - 00:00:51.330

coffeehouse. It was set up and, um, at Fort, yeah, and, um. And I came from a new left uh uh student background. um I know that. OK, and um. Uh, the coffee house had mixed success or um was pretty much a disaster. Um, Uh, we set

00:00:51.330 - 00:01:15.459

it up in, um, in Seaside, which is African American, um, uh, uh, community right next to Fort Word, and, um, we were mostly, um, uh, almost exclusively, um. White, um. Petty bourgeois types and um who was there with you? Um, um, the only person that has

00:01:15.459 - 00:01:36.239

got the name of Kenza, the RU sent a couple of people to work there. I remember the name Ken and Bruce Neuberger, and then there was a woman there whose whose um husband had been, um. His his husband had been uh indicted and had gotten a

00:01:36.239 - 00:01:52.180

serious, I think he was in, I think he was in some mutiny. I, I can't remember, but some woman whose husband was a fairly famous resister inside the army. And um then there was some some lawyers, Luke Heiken who stayed, who has stayed very active politically

00:01:52.180 - 00:02:14.559

over all these years, he's still counseling soldiers and some local people and um it was a disaster. Well, you know, it, it. There was a lot of uh mutual misunderstandings between the black soldiers and um and uh the white politicals and the idea was that you're

00:02:14.559 - 00:02:29.369

supposed to be able to like support yourself by working at the coffee house but that didn't happen. So I got a job as a as a. As a PE coach at a local elementary school and then I got fired from that when they saw my. But

00:02:29.369 - 00:02:51.800

when my police record arrived and um. And I picked up a hitchhiker, which was in 1971. Who had just worked for a few months in the fields, having gotten dispatch from the UFW. Office because the UFW had won a big strike in 1970. So me and

00:02:51.800 - 00:03:12.149

Bruce Neuberger decided what the heck we couldn't support ourselves at the coffee house, um, we go try working in the fields. And um Then over the next. Uh, moved to Salinas. Got interested in the fields, got a pretty good job in the fields, got to work

00:03:12.149 - 00:03:42.639

on a piece, uh piece rate crew cutting celery, decided that I would Settle around here and picked Watsonville because there was plenty of work, a small little town, I like small town life, um, and, uh, Moved to Watsonville in 1973. Um, In 1979, there was a

00:03:42.639 - 00:04:06.550

big strike in the fields. And um At the end of the strike. I was arrested a few times and I had been. Oh, I don't know if you really want all this stuff about, you don't have to go to mainly you know how you came to

00:04:06.550 - 00:04:31.450

the, so then, right, so then during the strike people, uh, uh, looked for other jobs. Um, while still staying on strike, you understand, and one of the other jobs was, um, one of the other jobs that people. Got Was um loading frozen food trucks in Watsonville.

00:04:32.950 - 00:05:02.309

A lumber. And um Uh, And so, um, all you had to do was, um. OK I forget how we fucking. We joined the union I think we joined a union. And, and, um. And uh but there wasn't like a dispatch system. I mean, every once in

00:05:02.309 - 00:05:18.570

a while there'd be a call into the hall. And you would get a call from the union to go load a truck, but basically people hung out at the at the um at the loading dock. But, but, um, I and this other friend of mine who

00:05:18.570 - 00:05:50.049

was on strike, we joined the union. I don't think that we necessarily had to and um. And then um after the strike, I wasn't, I was crossed off a seniority list. And um At uh Sun Harvest. And I um And I liked uh loading the trucks

00:05:50.049 - 00:06:14.709

and I liked being in a situation which was uh multinational, not just completely Mexican and um. And so I started uh loading trucks. And I caught on with us, a trucking company here and became their number one loader. And um And uh so I was getting

00:06:14.709 - 00:06:48.529

pretty good uh pretty good work, pretty good amount of work. Um, And Um, then, of course, being who I am, uh, I started getting interested in in the union also because. Because um. Uh. Because of the nature of being a lumper is actually a very good

00:06:48.529 - 00:07:03.779

position to learn about what's happening you move around a lot. You hit all the docks and you talk to people and you go eat, eat in the in the um in the cannery lunchroom. And you talk to a lot of truckers and you talk to a

00:07:03.779 - 00:07:28.730

lot of Canada workers, what we call Canada workers around here because we work. So I started getting interested in the union. Went to Went to a couple of union meetings. And of course there were no union meetings. Yeah. So, uh, here's some. Um, and so I.

00:07:30.230 - 00:07:49.470

You know, I, I, I, I remained a leftist through all of this. And when I was in the fields, I, um, actually was in the RCP for about 4 months. And, um, because basically they're the only people working in the fields and, um, probably the biggest

00:07:49.470 - 00:08:04.619

political mistake I've ever made I think in the whole. Slew political mistakes. It was a lot to choose from, but that was a big one. But anyway, I got out really quick. I realized it was not for me. Um, but they were the only, they were

00:08:04.619 - 00:08:24.190

the only every tendency known to humanity was inside the UFW. Um, uh, staff, but there was only one tendency in the fields, and, um, that's the one I, so I enjoyed that claim to fame, you know, they went out there and got their hands dirty. And

00:08:24.190 - 00:08:58.450

um I always believed in new politics you have to work with somebody else, so I joined up, left real quick. And um. In 1979. Knew about TDU cause I was. Lefty and um. And when I've been in Berkeley. I had The Marxists that I was closest

00:08:58.450 - 00:09:31.130

to, although I wasn't, I wasn't, I was a new lefty, um, were the ISS. So I knew Mike Parker pretty well. And uh Um You want something to drink? Fine. Tremendous respect for my partner. Um, um. So I have that I had those But I kind

00:09:31.130 - 00:09:50.849

of knew who to call. About sending up a TDU chapter. And so I don't know when we set it up 8081 something like that, maybe 81 or actually it was fairly. I guess Joe got involved in it too. He made it sound like it was this

00:09:51.340 - 00:10:09.799

going thing, you know, and he had to sort of come in fairly late. he just started it. He was, he came at a very early meeting and I had been going on for a while when he, when he arrived. he arrives I'll never forget it. He

00:10:09.799 - 00:10:42.030

arrived in full UPS uniform in bare feet. Yeah, it's a movie I've seen, um. Um The first thing Was to uh. Get enough people to make a quorum at the meetings at the union meetings, yeah, that was the first. The first um struggle. Um Um, the

00:10:42.030 - 00:11:03.890

local 912 is not strictly. Cannery workers, no, it was it was a mixed, right? I mean, what, what were the proportions? Overwhelmingly, um, cannery and now we're gonna say cannery all this time, but we need frozen food, yeah, OK, um, overwhelmingly, um, frozen food, but they

00:11:03.890 - 00:11:24.609

still had, um, all of the local delivery guys. We don't have hardly any of them anymore, and, um, but the, um, the more crucial part of the local industry, which was the local, the, the produce drivers belong to um Salinas. They were Um, 9 12's hands.

00:11:27.530 - 00:11:45.570

So this has lost all those guys now. If I'm not mistaken, local 890 had its little revolution right before the Watsonville strike started. That's when Frank Gallegos came in. That's true. They have been mainly noted for, you know, sending goon squads out to the farm workers,

00:11:45.690 - 00:12:17.640

the mines and stuff, uh, that's that and Mike Johnson wrote in with them. Yeah, we wrote in with Tallegos. Um, Um, There's some more. Would you like some more? I'm fine. It was great, good. Sit down and talk. So You know, We're a small little group.

00:12:19.700 - 00:12:55.250

Managed Managed to uh Get quorums at union meetings. Most of it was. Um, There's always, you know, like in any kind of industrial situation, there's always people with complaints. And When people would go to the union office. With their complaints Basically, the union would try to

00:12:55.250 - 00:13:19.109

talk them out of them. Um The union kind of had a client relationship to the. To the membership. Um, the service model and, and they'd rather sit in their office and do nothing. Have to Service uh contract and we have pretty much contempt for um the

00:13:19.109 - 00:13:42.119

membership um. You're talking now about um. King specifically or Leon Ellis or Sergio or all of them. All of them all. Um, Although Sergio is in a special position, he seemed to inspire a little more than the others. Well, that was his that was his job.

00:13:43.469 - 00:14:08.369

Um, his job was to. His job was to, um. Was to um. Keep Richard King in power, but although that wasn't really too much of an issue because as it turned out, the only way you could run for union office was if you'd been 50 at

00:14:08.369 - 00:14:36.419

50% of the union meetings, which was impossible to do because there were no union meetings. With the um just in terms of the history of 9/12, did they contend with uh the the CIO union at all with the the the cannery and agricultural workers for representation

00:14:36.419 - 00:14:56.809

rights? That was a different, um, that fight. Um, Was with um the vet Packer Workers Union in Salinas wasn't 912 912 wasn't in 912. It's a a fascinating fight, unbelievably interesting fight. Yeah. Well, there is that book that Vicky Ruiz wrote about it, yeah, but in

00:14:56.809 - 00:15:28.900

Watsonville. After the After the The union was kicked out of the CIO. The Salinas and Watsonville fruit tramps. Voted twice. To keep them as their union representing them. Um, um, so it was like different than San Jose, uh. But 9/12 wasn't involved in that, right? 912

00:15:28.900 - 00:15:47.349

this is this a brand new industry, brand new union and um. Yeah, it might have been here before, um. There was some milk delivery drivers or something, but, but it became a, a local of some consequence with with the with the frozen food industrial component, yeah.

00:15:49.400 - 00:16:05.090

Do you know anything about how 9/12 happened to Get contrasts with all these canaries that were were cropping up. I mean, Console was one of the first, wasn't he? I think that's in my, in my article, and I don't remember the details, but it was a

00:16:05.090 - 00:16:32.640

deal, uh, arranged in San Jose. Um, uh, cause you know. Originally. They there's a good relationship. You know what that means between the bosses and the the cannery bosses and the union officials in San Jose and when this new industry starts up the deal, I think

00:16:32.640 - 00:16:50.510

originally originally before 9/12 or before 9/12 was brought in, I'm not sure which way um the San Jose, um, the San Jose local had the had the had the uh. Contract. Of course, if you're dealing with a seasonal workforce, it's really important to have a union,

00:16:50.590 - 00:17:09.989

a good relationship with the union that'll make sure that people are there when you need them and that that would militate much more in favor of, you know, what might be termed sweetheart contracts you would see in another kind of an industry, yeah. Um, And then

00:17:09.989 - 00:17:30.130

the other thing, of course, is that. It's a small town um. Um, And the cannery, the head of the, the, the, the, the guys who ran the canneries and own the canneries and manage the canneries were in the same social groupings as the guys who ran

00:17:30.130 - 00:17:45.770

the union. Well, they were mainly like independent entrepreneurs, right? I just sort of stepped into this new area and you know they, they weren't like connected to these big giant corporations or like Del Monte, for instance, exactly, no, no, these are small, these are small small

00:17:45.770 - 00:17:59.890

local operations. And Sergio spoke about, uh, more, you know, the old man console with a certain respect, you know, the guy was very dynamic, you know, he's a real entrepreneur, da da da da, you know, and his wife was in there, you know, walking the floor

00:17:59.890 - 00:18:22.109

in the plant, you know, when Gloria was in there as a teenager, uh, I just had to make sure Mrs. Conso didn't see me, you know, um. Yeah, um, I, I mean, I think I forget what it was, but. King's daughter married one of the Shaw

00:18:22.109 - 00:18:36.000

Boys or something like that. I have it in my article. I it was, it might be I remember hearing that. Well, you know, I mean, you can actually listen to the the radio broadcast Sergio talks about, you know, the relationship between Shaw and the Conso family

00:18:36.000 - 00:18:52.030

and how uh um uh came and it was like how when. Mort forced to strike. It was like King took it like a punch in the gut. He never dreamed that this kid, you know, who was practically like a son to him would do something like

00:18:52.030 - 00:19:16.739

this to him, you know, like that Bob Dylan song, you know, uh, um. So he just went off to drown at. Well, I don't understand was why King. It's not stupid. Why did they allow there to be that? Difference in wages in the contract to raises

00:19:16.739 - 00:19:34.329

that, you know, everybody raises it, you know, I mean it was just I'm surprised that the Teamsters. International didn't get on about it too, and you were dealing with a master agreement right that covered different plants, I mean, and uh. I, I, I think in most

00:19:34.329 - 00:19:52.109

unions if you tried pulling a stunt like that, you get in the past some of trouble with, you know, the higher ups. Just look at the uh. Well, so that's what, yeah, but you were talking about you, you got the TDU chapter going, uh, you mainly

00:19:52.109 - 00:20:19.839

try to get people to go to union meetings, have forums and stuff. Then we had kind of. Under With advice from Path probably um we were we're just reading the literature. I can't remember the extent to which we were in contact with path. Uh, Ken, Ken,

00:20:20.160 - 00:20:53.939

yeah, OK, um. We did um a um. A bylaws campaign. And Um, I'm gonna make myself some coffee. Would you like some coffee? You know I would, um. And the bylaws campaign was the first thing that really. Um, Where we got, you know. Hundreds of people

00:20:54.040 - 00:21:20.079

to come to a meeting. To vote for the bylaws. Um The bylaw changes and I forget what they were they were standard. Bylaw campaign. I mean, for one thing, we try to make it so people would be eligible to run for office. Um, and. It was

00:21:20.079 - 00:21:40.540

a vote where. Um, A big hall was out of the church out of the uh the uh. The Portuguese Catholic Church out on East Lake Boulevard, big, big, big hall and the, the um. The ballot boxes up in the front and the debate we won the

00:21:40.540 - 00:21:59.910

debate. Sergio, we, we really smashed Sergio in the debate and and a lot of people argued and this is a and uh Sergio sort of um uh uh even kind of backed down a little bit, but people had to go and put their ballot. In this

00:21:59.910 - 00:22:16.930

ballot box up at the front of the hall under the eyes of um all the union officials and it was very intimidating this big menacing alcoholic redheaded guy you know yeah yeah yeah yeah not only him but Sergio and all everybody and and we still almost

00:22:16.930 - 00:22:38.030

won but but people were intimidated but that was a big um more folks. Came in, you know, um, tell me a little bit about how you got that crowd mobilized. You know, I don't really remember that much. I think we the standard stuff that we did

00:22:38.030 - 00:22:54.430

was we passed out leaflets, passed out leaflets. We had a, we had, um, we were really good at leaflets, um, and, um, uh, I, um, I was working in all these different places and I got to know circulated and got the, the leaflets did not sit

00:22:54.430 - 00:23:17.819

in the trunk of the car like they often do, you know, they actually got out, um, um, we had a handful of people. Um, uh, who we're close to who were, uh, pretty deeply integrated into the community, Jose Lopez, Fidelia Carran Sosa, um, uh, Guillermina, um,

00:23:17.900 - 00:23:33.780

I want to ask you about her actually. I know she really turned very strongly against TDU once the strike started, and I was curious as to what did it. Yeah, um, I think it was her boyfriend. Um, whose name, who was very close to us at

00:23:33.780 - 00:23:53.670

the beginning and then turned against us. Um, what the hell was his name? He's a truck driver now. Oh, I can just see him, he's one of my. It was very close to him. Horocho is what he was called because he came from Veracruz. Um, Uh,

00:23:54.040 - 00:24:11.160

that's, I think the main reason that you turned against us. But anyway, Jorocho was there, Guillermina, um, Jose Lopez, Fidelia Caron Sosa, um, well, you know, you got 4 or 5 people, and then me and Joe, that's a, that's a, yeah, yeah, and you're sort of

00:24:11.160 - 00:24:31.739

on the same page. That's a, that's enough, and, uh, we, uh, the, the. The changes in the bylaws that we were suggesting were good. I don't remember what they are, they were now, but they were sensible and, um, uh, nothing outrageous and um. And then after

00:24:31.739 - 00:24:49.829

that we got more people coming around, but when you have a small group like this without much power, very often the people who come around are not the real true um. Uh, uh, powerful people inside the community inside the membership, um, you get people who are

00:24:50.069 - 00:25:09.380

more willing already outsiders to a certain extent, more willing to take an outside position, more willing to take risks, um, not necessarily the real solid people inside actually emphasized that, um, and, um, but it was still a group of people. Then we got a tremendous break,

00:25:09.630 - 00:25:31.479

um. Which made us a popular organization, and that was Also, this is old time Watsonville when. We had a, a driver or two, a white driver, a guy by the name of Stoner who had wanted to run against King but discovered that he couldn't because he

00:25:31.479 - 00:25:57.699

hadn't attended half of the non-existent meetings. Um, so it was a like a bilingual, bi-national voluntary association in town. In the 19 early 1980s there weren't many like that and I wanted to break in how many organizations were like that in TDU. You mean nationally? Yeah,

00:25:57.819 - 00:26:08.859

I mean, I, I, I heard somewhere, and I don't know if it's true or not, that the Watson bill probably had the only TDU chapter in the country was meetings were conducted in Spanish. I think that's probably true, but I I have no way of knowing

00:26:08.859 - 00:26:28.300

that no way of knowing that, um, um. Just because its base was so different, yeah, our base was so different. Oh, there was another woman who we had, uh, I can't remember her name. Um, who was, who was a solid. Respected woman on the line, somebody

00:26:28.300 - 00:26:48.079

up in Washington State I know who. Set up a TDU chapter where there were a lot of uh. Those are people that's um that's, yeah, that those people were um green giant displaced workers um uh Laro and Yolanda Navarro who um we met during the strike,

00:26:48.099 - 00:27:06.640

but they were green giant workers and they didn't they came before when when Green Giant closed down. Green Giant wasn't involved in the strike, um, um. But the break that we got was Juanpara, which was um this guy who was being pushed around by a foreman.

00:27:08.239 - 00:27:24.209

And um Uh, sweeping out a trailer. His job was sweeping out trailers after they were dumped. And some there was some stupid foreman and everybody hated a guy by name of Miller, the guy basically slept his way into the job from what I get from what

00:27:24.209 - 00:27:38.310

I understood that was Joe's story, you know, and he told me this, but I want to get your version, yeah, and. And uh one hit him with a broom. The guy was shoving him around and pushing him around, and one just whacked him with the fucking

00:27:38.310 - 00:27:54.329

broom and um still around. I think he went back to Mexico. I think he went back to Mexico. We did a, we did actually a video of his of our play that we made about about that that John still has. I'll see if I don't have

00:27:54.329 - 00:28:19.449

Davis wrote it, right? Didn't he write, I wrote it. You wrote it. I wrote directed it, it, yeah, um, uh, and, um. Uh, Ronnie Davis, I knew from the Berkeley days and I called him in, um, uh, but anyway. They fired him immediately and um charged

00:28:19.449 - 00:28:36.099

him with felonious assault and um he went to the union hall and you said we can't do anything for you you're on your own and um so he came to us by that time we were we were popular enough well actually he came to a union

00:28:36.099 - 00:28:58.699

meeting where we had a quorum and complained about nobody paying any attention to him and then we talked to him outside. Well, it turned out that he was part of a long large extended family that worked inside the canneries. Um, who never were really. Political, they

00:28:58.699 - 00:29:22.410

didn't come to fore during the strike, but they were well respected people inside the canneries, and there were many of them, the Parra family. And And When we we took up his case. And we brought down Siegel to defend him and um and there's going and

00:29:22.410 - 00:29:43.900

there's gonna be a preliminary hearing. And um some of the witness at the preliminary hearing we're gonna present a bunch of witnesses and the witnesses, some of the witnesses who are cannery workers. Uh, who saw the incident. Um, and And they didn't have papers and we're

00:29:43.900 - 00:29:59.439

standing in the foyer of the court of the courtroom and the meager comes in and takes away the witnesses. Yeah. You know, this is one thing that I rarely heard talked about during the strike as who was legal and who wasn't or just never seemed to

00:29:59.439 - 00:30:15.229

be an issue, not an issue, and the sense I got was that if it ever was going to be an issue, it stopped being one after this incident. Well, this just made us stronger, yeah, and Pinetta got on the uh the INS's case and yeah oh

00:30:15.229 - 00:30:41.719

yeah we we got a, we had a. It just made it stronger. Jose Lopez, Jose Lopez, who doesn't have papers, was on the um on the uh INS task community task force. We got appointed to the INS Community task force, uh, uh. And I mean, it

00:30:41.719 - 00:31:02.219

was what happened was. You know, it was like, you know, they lift up a stone to drop it on their own foot, but they didn't realize the extent to which. There was tremendous support for so many people who are undocumented and amongst. Not everybody in the

00:31:02.219 - 00:31:19.719

Mexican community, but amongst most people in the Mexican community. The meager is a hated, yeah, yeah, um, well, even if you've got papers there's somebody in your family that doesn't, yeah, now, now there's limits to that, by the way, um. Because there was some job competition,

00:31:20.000 - 00:31:34.280

especially in the fields, not so much in the in the canneries that became a problem in the UFW didn't it, especially when they started getting people up from who didn't speak Spanish, you know, from, uh, southern Mexico and that kind of thing. Well, even before that

00:31:34.280 - 00:32:01.270

in 1974, the, the, um the UFW had its own, um. Uh, The goon squad on the border, it's own border patrol. It was the UFW border patrol. UFW was um. Was um always associated because of the peculiarities of grape production. Um, where was the one place

00:32:01.270 - 00:32:19.729

in California where there was a real significant Mexican American farm worker community. Um And that's what their base was. The UFW came to be known in the fields as, um, well. Hey, if you want to prove that you're a citizen, go to a UFW picket line.

00:32:20.780 - 00:32:46.079

That's the best way to let everybody know that you're you're here legally. UFW in, in, in the first great tops in 1973, 1970, between 1970 and 1973. Had a task force that went out. To the Places that they had contracts in the table grapes and. Got

00:32:46.079 - 00:33:07.609

people fired who didn't have kids in your book, right? OK, I'm looking forward to reading that. We're we're straying, but I'm fascinated by this. Um, no, it's quite all right. I didn't discourage it, um, so this we got real popular and then. Not only did. Not

00:33:07.609 - 00:33:55.349

only did um. I'll just show you a leaflet. This is Frank Barday. It's, uh, March 25th, 2010. Is this in your papers at San Francisco State? Yeah, I think so. I'm not sure. Yeah You doctored up an old wobbly. We put a mustache on a mustache

00:33:55.349 - 00:34:25.290

on him and his hair a little bit, yeah, like one of those blonde Irish guys, you know. Yeah. Yeah, that's, that's the wonders of graphic art. Well, this is before the computer, um, but anyway. We The charges were dismissed. He won $65,000. Um, In a civil

00:34:25.290 - 00:34:48.290

suit against Miller. And um, and Miller was fired. And the only thing that we lost was at the union arbitration, they didn't give him his job back. Well, this made us quite popular. The union did actually bring, bring it to arbitration though. Yes, they did bring

00:34:48.290 - 00:35:05.399

it to arbitration and they lost in arbitration. Did they do a respectable job of putting their case out there, or did they deliberately screw it up in your opinion? I am not clear. Sergio was very, very, very the most, the longest conversation I ever had with

00:35:05.399 - 00:35:17.939

Sergio was about that case and he was trying to prove to me that they did as good a case as they could. Did he do the arbitration? He was involved. He was there. I don't know who did it, but um one of the union people, one

00:35:17.939 - 00:35:53.219

of the out of town union people voted against him, voted against him. Um, but Sergio was extremely embarrassed, um, and. Um, So So going into the strike. We, um, We, um, we had something. Real in town. Oh, then we ran for election? That's what I wanted

00:35:53.219 - 00:36:12.409

to ask you about, yeah, and I, everybody tells me you were totally shocked by how well you did and you were a little bit frightened by it as well. Yeah, yeah, um, um, yeah, 48% of the vote. I mean, Sergio's line was, you know, was perfectly

00:36:12.409 - 00:36:26.500

right the things they were saying. King wasn't looking out for people, he was drinking too much, you know, you know, there was a lot of his contempt. And then I guess Sergio says he'd sent, he sent me off to Sanger or someplace like that to handle

00:36:26.500 - 00:36:38.840

another strike. He loaned me out to the international, so he had nobody, nobody basically representing him, you know, to talk to, talk to the members, and then when it looked like the election was gonna be close, he called Serge on a panic and said come back

00:36:38.840 - 00:36:54.330

here, you know, because if I, if I voted out, you're gonna lose your job too, you know. Yeah, the red bait is Sergio does not. But at least for the purposes of my interview with him, he doesn't he doesn't remember King very fondly, you know, um.

00:36:56.959 - 00:37:10.750

But once again, it's like the case of the. The son who sort of turns on the kind of thing, and he really admired the guy. The guy got involved in the labor movement and so forth, but then, you know, in the critical moment, he just turned

00:37:10.750 - 00:37:26.320

out to have feet of clay, you know, sort of the way he represents it. Yeah, yeah, well, I think it's a little quite a bit more political than that, you know, just leave the stuff. Um, it's gonna come out on the tape anyway. Yeah, I think

00:37:26.320 - 00:37:42.719

it's quite a bit more than that. what I described to you. Well, that's his narrative, yeah, yeah, yeah, it's, um, I hate to talk like a deconstructionist. That's his story. Let's say, let's say that, not, not when I was in school. It wasn't this is all

00:37:42.719 - 00:38:07.310

new to me. I, I still think that, you know, privilege is a noun and construct is a verb, not the other way around. Um, me too, um. Oh, So but you were talking about the arbitration that they lost the arbitration and and that uh Sergio maintained

00:38:07.310 - 00:38:20.280

to you that they really put up a good fight a good fight that it's, you know, and God knows arbitration is a crapshoot anyway, you know, I, I have no idea whether they did or not. I couldn't tell because we were, we couldn't be in there,

00:38:21.590 - 00:38:36.500

um, unless you recall his witnesses, yeah, and were any of the people who testified for him called as witnesses in the arbitration hearing? Yes, yeah. Um, but they only saw their own testimony. They had to leave when, you know, the right, right, so we don't really

00:38:36.500 - 00:38:48.739

know what happened, and you know, there's all kinds of they, if they want you to lose the arbitration, it's easy for them to do without being, and they could have even put up a really, really good show and still wanted to lose it and maybe they

00:38:48.739 - 00:39:01.959

were thinking maybe it was out of one of these things it was out of Sergio's control, although Sergio was the his, you know, you don't bring a, you don't bring a lawyer into arbitration. He was defended by the union. Sergio took up his defense and um

00:39:01.959 - 00:39:17.189

I had a decision to go against me once. It cost me 800 bucks. Yeah, yeah, uh. And I, you know, the hearing irritated the shit out of me. It's not that anybody was trying to sell me out. It's just that the whole process was so flawed,

00:39:17.850 - 00:39:31.929

you know, from a justice point of view, but go ahead, um, you mentioned that that was the big break that was what kind of gave you some. Entree into the into the plants because you weren't just attracting the kind of the fringe types and because of

00:39:31.929 - 00:39:46.469

the families who got involved. And um and you made a strong show in the election, you would have gotten a lot of votes from inside the the the yeah we had it wasn't just like a bunch of truck drivers. Yeah, yeah, we made a very strong,

00:39:48.320 - 00:39:59.979

and no, we weren't a bunch of truck drivers at all. I mean, I don't think. I don't think that was a problem with TDU that we were a bunch of truck drivers. That's, that's if somebody's told you that, that's not, no, no, I, I don't, I'm

00:39:59.979 - 00:40:19.469

just guessing here, yeah, there were, there were a couple of truck drivers involved, but it was, it was a, it was a, and you know. The leader of it, me, was a white man who with uh with uh barely adequate Spanish so um so uh that

00:40:19.469 - 00:40:31.709

was good enough that you could run meetings oh yeah yeah you know is good it was not it was not terrible but it was, but it was, um, I mean I spoke some Spanish but I'm not a I'm not a linguist and uh it uh it,

00:40:31.790 - 00:40:47.199

um, and. We were smart enough so that I didn't run all the meetings. I mean, you know, there was other people involved, but it wasn't just my game. I'm not an Einskyite and um I'm more like an an an anarchist than I am an Einskyite and

00:40:47.199 - 00:41:12.409

um uh so. Um, so it wasn't just my show, but, um, that was definitely a weakness of the organization, um. Um, Another thing that happened in this period. was that I didn't mention is that Ken Path came through town. And this is before, this is when

00:41:12.409 - 00:41:28.379

we're still a small group and we had a pretty big meeting, maybe 40 people, 40 or 50 people, big push to have him speak. And he spoke and it was written up in the newspaper and the next day I was fired. For my job as a

00:41:28.379 - 00:41:45.429

lumber. The meeting was, uh, he, he spoke at the union meeting or at the church right across the street over here and the TDU was under TDU's auspice he spoke, but it was a public meeting. It was a public meeting about 40 people pressed for these

00:41:45.429 - 00:41:59.149

were people inside. Yeah, the camry workers came who were interested. We had good picture they showed up. They showed up. They showed up and they asked questions. Did he do a good job? We did a good job, but it was a huge mistake. It's a huge

00:41:59.149 - 00:42:20.620

mistake to have him at a public meeting, and, and, um. Uh, and perhaps should have known that, uh, or we should have known it, somebody should have known it. Because we were not strong enough yet to be exposed like that. And Um, and I eventually, I

00:42:20.620 - 00:42:36.870

went to the LRB and I eventually got my job back, got $2000 and got my job back. That was a big, um, a big victory, but before you ran for president this is, um, this is before I ran for president. Yes, when you ran for Secretary

00:42:36.870 - 00:42:56.790

of Treasury Secretary of Treasury this is before I ran for Secretary of Treasurer, got my job back. Siegel defended me, um, and, um, got a $2000 settlement. And uh And I was given a choice between um getting a bunch more money or getting my job back

00:42:56.790 - 00:43:10.689

in the $2000 settlement. I took my job in the $2000 settlement and they got rid of me within a couple of weeks. They changed the nature of the operation, um, and they still had lumpers though. They still had people who were still around. They don't have

00:43:10.689 - 00:43:27.320

them anymore. They have them. They now have them connected to the hired by the canneries themselves. there are canneries. Do they even still have frozen food plans in Watsonville? 11, yeah, one. So yeah, they don't have anymore, but, but they still did then, but they managed

00:43:27.320 - 00:43:40.280

what do you want in your coffee? Milk if you got it, yeah, um. So I try and went back to the LRB and said look if they've changed this operation just to get rid of me and this time the LRB wasn't, you had to do they

00:43:40.280 - 00:43:56.389

did what they had to do and they didn't need to do anymore, yeah, um, so, um, so. And it's a small town and um. I got, I worked for one day at Shaw's. Man, I wish I kept that job. I worked for one day at Shaw's

00:43:56.389 - 00:44:21.979

and they fired me. Somebody spotted me and um. Uh, And Joe was trying to get me on as a car washer at UPS. I couldn't do that. And um, but there was a small little plant. Um, H&H bottling that. was so small and it was dominated

00:44:21.979 - 00:44:58.820

by Portuguese, was almost all Portuguese. And it was so out of the way. It was union, but it was so out of the way that I got in 30 days there. And um got back in the union. And That place. Was. That

00:44:58.820 - 00:45:24.020

place. Was taken over by by Hansen. Oh yeah, the, the, the, the, the natural soda or whatever, yeah, it's the same fucking stuff that goes in the regular soda. And um And then I was laid off. Not politically it was it would cut back on the.

00:45:26.120 - 00:45:41.889

On the um workforce and I was a recent hire. This was after the election and um. First saw you I guess during the strike I guess at that point you were already working in a in the school system that's right yeah and I was laid off

00:45:41.889 - 00:46:00.040

and were out at 12 I was 12 and so you in the strike as an observer. My, well, not mainly as an observer, but my entry into the strike was through the Watson the strike support committee. That was my, uh. Now I can probably find this

00:46:00.040 - 00:46:16.229

out. I remember the Northern California strike Support Committee, a few meetings of which I went to in San Francisco, and you know, they were annoying. I mean, typical Bay Area left, you know, slugfest. Uh, You know Steve Zeltzer, yeah, I just remember him in his little

00:46:16.229 - 00:46:42.139

briefcase. That's the image I have of this meeting when Cherie yelling at him, you know, I brought a buddy from work to that meeting and, um, you know, he. He fell in love with Cherie that night, but uh. Anyway, uh, I, I'm digressing. Well, so. Joe

00:46:42.139 - 00:47:01.100

is still in TDU. I have found a home at the adult school where I worked for the next 25 years until I just retired. Um, and, um, really thinking. That my sojourn in the working class is over and the traditional working class is over and um

00:47:01.590 - 00:47:24.919

uh. And um that my relationship to people is more direct and more honest as a teacher, as a local teacher than as just a. Over educated worker. Um, and, um. And but Joe is Joe's taken over TDU and uh TDU is still pretty strong and Jose

00:47:24.919 - 00:47:43.649

Lopez is, um, just as strong as Joe in the organization by far, maybe even stronger than Joe. I mean, it's not just Joe's organization and there's these, there's the Parra family and there's the Guillermina and there's Hirocho and they've got something. And, um, but Joe is

00:47:43.649 - 00:48:07.149

continuing to come and talk to me about stuff and so I'm, I'm connected to you, to you still. So the next thing I remember. Sergio and Leon. Ask Joe and I if we could go talk somewhere. What was it like to do some work. No, just

00:48:07.149 - 00:48:16.770

they have something to tell us about. Oh, OK. Oh, I see what you mean. Yeah, not a public talk, yeah, yeah, yeah, so we go out, we drive up into the mountains and we have a, I don't know if Joe told you about this one. Well,

00:48:16.830 - 00:48:29.439

he told me about the time. What's his face? Lavar took him for a ride. No, one of the, one of the, yeah, no, no, the uglies from the. Yeah, that was hilarious. I'm sure you didn't think it was funny while it was happening, but it was

00:48:29.439 - 00:48:54.729

great in the telling. So, um, So we go out there and they say. More councils forcing a strike. More consuls went forcing a strike. He force he I can remember Leon said more counsel came into the office and he took a shit on Richard King's desk.

00:48:57.449 - 00:49:19.840

He must have been high. I mean he didn't really take a shit on Richard, no, no manner, it's a manner of speaking and so, so, um. So, um. There was this um. There was this time that they were just they were looking to TDU for help.

00:49:20.610 - 00:49:39.989

They didn't know exactly how, but Sergio and now this king and this was. King and this was a secret meeting from King and Ellis, from King and um. What was his sidekicks, yeah. But it was Sergio and Ellis who talked to you, King and basically sent

00:49:39.989 - 00:49:54.000

them to do it. No, no, no, they were doing it underneath because they knew that King and Jaime were incapable of of maneuvering. They took the initiative. They talk to you guys talked to us guys. Sergio was not giving me a line of ball and he

00:49:54.000 - 00:50:12.929

said that he tried to get TDU on board. Yeah, no, no, no. He, he, this is before there's, this is before it comes down. Um, Uh, OK, now, now, you know, um, I don't know what Sergio means by getting TDU on board. He might mean that

00:50:12.929 - 00:50:40.530

meeting. He didn't elaborate, yeah, you know, I tried to work with everybody, you know, yeah, which you said yourself, yes, he did, he did. OK, so then. So then like the strike is forced. By the wage, the incredible wage cut, OK. So then we go. To

00:50:41.820 - 00:50:57.040

The office en masse. TDU we mobilize a lot of people. Now it's easy to mobilize a lot of people and a lot of people go to a union meeting, a big huge union meeting. This was, uh, what do you have a date for this? Um, this

00:50:57.040 - 00:51:17.060

is actually this period between I guess the end of June and the beginning of September that I want the, the, the March is, uh, October. Did you ever see this poster? This is a beautiful poster, this one here. OK, oh, October 6th, sure, no, I remember

00:51:17.060 - 00:51:37.100

that, yeah, so this was the this was the um. Uh, They this was the crucial thing to be able to put this right yeah, no, Joe, Joe went on at great length about that the organization that uh yeah so we went on and we um. Uh,

00:51:37.139 - 00:51:55.000

so we went to this mass meeting and we, the, it was really clear and Sergio was in this camp that That King and Jim did not want to extend the strike. They did not want to call for outside support. Sergio definitely argued that position that we

00:51:55.000 - 00:52:10.810

can handle it right here in town. It's um uh that's still in his position, yeah, um, well, that it's hard for me to believe that. There's no way the strike would have won without support. There were people who wanted their piece of the action, you know,

00:52:10.929 - 00:52:27.510

coming in. Well, that's true, yeah, but the people who want a piece of the action also contributed to the size of the struggle, um, you'll say that too, yeah, yeah, so, um. But there's no reason to do anything other than just to picket, manage the picket

00:52:27.510 - 00:52:51.429

lines, so we got an injunction slapped on it almost immediately, yeah, very bad, very, very strict injunction, extremely strict injunction. Um, did the union challenge the injunction? No, no, no, observe it. It's supposed to observe the junction. Um, so, um, so we voted there to have

00:52:51.429 - 00:53:24.580

this to extend the strike basically to have the, the October 6th round 1 at a local 912 meeting and um and then. Now I had known. How did I, oh, I. We challenge the election. We, because, because there were some irregularities, the 82 election, we challenged

00:53:24.580 - 00:53:51.649

the election. There's some irregularities and we got to Mac and we had a hearing. Before the joint council. And Mac. Yeah Mac, they ruled for the union against us, but Mac let us know somehow. I don't exactly remember how that he wasn't terribly excited about Richard

00:53:51.649 - 00:54:06.004

King and Fred Hi. Oh no, they were, they were freaked out. I mean that's why they sent Alex in there. Yeah, well, but this is before the strike. This is, this is, this is way before the strike, so. This is 82, but Mac was extremely polite

00:54:06.004 - 00:54:23.350

to us. That's all I can say, um, and treated us with way more respect than we'd ever been treated down here. It wasn't his style to abuse people, yeah, yeah, he had a reputation for being just the, you know, the all around nice guy. So anyway.

00:54:24.290 - 00:54:50.219

So We went, if Joe maybe remember this better than I do, but so we started the strike support committee. And um, And we. Went to the joint council to get them to endorse it, I believe, and they didn't. But they did send Bill Walsh down, but

00:54:50.219 - 00:55:05.080

they did, but they did say that it was OK for us to have this on the leaflet, but they wouldn't endorse Solidarity Day. In other words, Chuck was going about as far as he felt he could safely go to be supportive, yeah, and then Solidarity Day

00:55:05.080 - 00:55:27.550

arrived and It was way bigger than anybody expected. And, um, uh. Uh, to a large degree, the LRS had a, had a big part in bringing people and, um, and, uh, a lot of because there's a lot of farm workers there, well, Mike Johnson had a

00:55:27.550 - 00:55:44.949

part in bringing people there's a lot of farm workers there and he was already in office in in um in Salinas, and, um, he helped and um. And it was a tremendous success, and at the same time it was like sort of the beginning of the

00:55:44.949 - 00:56:14.939

end of TDU. And there were 2 things that were, there were 2 things that were that TDU did wrong there. Um, Uh, one was that we were, we. Incredibly ignorantly, um, and had no no excuse for our ignorance, um. We were so strong as an organization

00:56:15.209 - 00:56:34.010

and at this point we had control of the strike. Um, people were looking to us for leadership rather than looking to, um, to, um, yeah, yeah, rather than to to Richard King or Sergio, um, uh, I think Sergio refused to speak at the rally, yes, because

00:56:34.010 - 00:56:47.469

he did refuse to speak. We invited him to speak and refused to speak, and, um, I think. Not sure about that. Um, I know we invited him to speak. I can't he might have spoken. He might have at the very end decided to speak when he

00:56:47.469 - 00:57:08.929

saw the size of the rally. But I can't remember, um, um, I remember that. That um somebody from uh from the joint council said if you want, we're, we are marching into the. Into the um into the martial law we're defying the what we call martial

00:57:08.929 - 00:57:29.030

law we're marching into the into the injunction zone and um and uh openly defying the law and uh the person from the joint counsel said, would you like the Teamster car to lead it. Big Bill Walsh and I said no, you can get at the end

00:57:29.030 - 00:57:39.909

of the line. That was a mistake I think yeah, it was a mistake. It was it was. I mean it's easy for me to say but looking back, well, I mean, you know, it was the kind of thing, yeah, it was the kind of thing where

00:57:39.909 - 00:57:52.110

you're pissed off that they didn't endorse us and then after they see it's so big, then they come and jump on, which happened and you're just pissed off about it and that that happened time and time again and and and uh and I I'll tell you

00:57:52.110 - 00:58:11.439

a story. Oscar would do the same thing. Oscar would do that same kind of thing and throughout the strike, even when they had control of the strike and we're just, um, uh, a small, uh, group, uh, not very important, we may initiated some things that they

00:58:11.439 - 00:58:22.679

opposed until they became big and then they jumped to the then they jumped to the front of the line. I guess it's pretty standard in politics, but it used to piss them. I don't know I'd have to ask, uh, pissed the piss the shit out of

00:58:22.679 - 00:58:47.300

me. Um, anyway, but the problem was not that, that was not the problem. The problem was two things. One was, um, uh, that, um, we didn't have a strike committee. That was Unforgivable. Unforgivable. The strike's been going on for a while and we hadn't called a

00:58:47.300 - 00:59:05.629

strike committee. We were thinking like the TDU we are thinking of sort of conceiving that TDU had become the union. Mhm. Um, and therefore. The strike could be led through TDU to the extent that we were thinking that, but even if we've been the union, you

00:59:05.629 - 00:59:32.409

would want to have a rank and file strike committee. Huge mistake and um uh and I'm not you know um. So that was mistake number one and then mistake number. 2, and I think that um. And I was I find myself like personally responsible for mistake

00:59:32.409 - 00:59:49.510

number one. I should have known better than that. Um, and, um. That's the kind of mistake that transcends politics though it's just being subjective. Yeah, yeah, yeah, it just, it's a lot of different kinds of people make that mistake. Yeah, yeah, it is unforgivable, but you

00:59:49.510 - 01:00:04.449

know it's like the excitement of it, yeah, yeah, no, no excitement of excitement of the thing and the fact that we that we were a big organization and it wasn't like we were. Uh, and, and we had open meetings and, um, the decisions were made at

01:00:04.449 - 01:00:18.969

open meetings and so there didn't seem to be any need, um, but it was a mistake. And the second mistake, and this one was Joe's fault, was that at the rally. We excluded all the groups that had helped put the rally together because we didn't want

01:00:18.969 - 01:00:37.090

to have, um, as Joe put it, a Berkeley style rally yeah yeah that was a huge mistake because that that so that made people feel like um like and Joe was close to CP at the time and um and uh that made people think that like

01:00:37.090 - 01:00:53.320

um this one political tendency had control of the strike and they're gonna try to keep everybody else excluded. You know, when Joe talked to me about this for quite some time. I wound up feeling badly for him because it struck me that he was pretty green

01:00:53.320 - 01:01:08.060

when all this stuff was happening. Uh, and there are certain little tricks that you learn, you know, from years and years in the movement that he just was oblivious of, you know. And uh he was out of his depth, and I think his his feelings were

01:01:08.060 - 01:01:21.429

hurt when people kind of turned on him. He blames a lot of it on Mike, which I think is wrong because Mike wasn't even really in Watsonville that night, you know, I think he kind of got a bad opinion of Mike during all that haggling over

01:01:21.429 - 01:01:38.229

the caning workers project funding that went on before the strike. And just, just to digress with the one conclusion I've reached. There was a big debate, you know, Mike had this project going and he wanted to. Bringing he wanted the league to kind of have some

01:01:38.229 - 01:01:51.050

kind of alliance with TDU so that, you know, it would be a win-win situation. TDU would get a base in the canneries and. You know, the, the project would have access to TV's reputation and resources and connections on the left, and I, you know, I thought

01:01:51.050 - 01:02:07.449

it was a great idea myself. People were reluctant to do it because there was a certain level of mistrust, you know, the leadership of TDU. And in retrospect, I mean, I looked over the correspondence between Mike and Ken Powell from that period. Months before the strike,

01:02:07.489 - 01:02:24.340

months before any of this crap happened, it's like there was a, the relationship between those two is just like toxic because there was no political unity. Organizationally it made great sense politically it was crazy. You know, And You know, my perspective, I was the the labor

01:02:24.340 - 01:02:36.659

editor of Unity. I was supposed to be keeping track of it was coming on different aspects of the labor movement. You know, an organization like TDE was kind of outside our comfort zone, you know, we did all of our stuff with like lower strata workers and

01:02:36.659 - 01:02:49.010

that kind of thing and. An organization based in a big industrial union, it was mainly like white guys, you know, sort of thing was not the sort of thing that we felt comfortable doing at that point. And I was all sort of pushing at to pay

01:02:49.010 - 01:03:02.340

more attention to this stuff, so when I came along with this proposal, I, you know, not that I had any influence, particularly. But um It seemed like a good idea and yet you just can't make things like that happen because you want them to happen, you

01:03:02.340 - 01:03:19.379

know, if there's not some common political ground. But you know it took me 25 years to figure that out, yeah, yeah, and I think a lot of the. You know, and Joe still thinks it might basically sabotage TD and Watson. I don't think it's true. Yeah,

01:03:19.469 - 01:03:32.060

I said, you know, Joe, you You wouldn't have had 500 people show up at that meeting to elect the strikers committee just because, you know, Mike Johnson was running around, you know, agitating against you before solidarity Day, even if Mike had been in town at the

01:03:32.060 - 01:03:43.699

time, which he really wasn't, I mean, Manuel might have done some talking to people. It's one of the things I want to find out. Oscar didn't even arrive in town until October 6th. You know, neither did Cherie, neither did any of those people. So, you know,

01:03:43.830 - 01:04:02.760

um. If any undermining of his leadership was done, you know. Uh, it would have been, you know, before, before Solidarity Day. You know, the only person who would have done it was Manuel, and I just can't see him. Yeah, I don't, yeah, see, I don't think,

01:04:03.330 - 01:04:25.649

I don't, I don't think that TDU's leadership was undermined before Solidarity Day at all. It was after Solidarity Day that, and it was and, and in some ways. Well, it's a very complicated story, um, um, but, but, but I, I think that if um. Well, if

01:04:25.649 - 01:04:42.239

there had been a strike committee, a lot of elected, a lot of this could have been avoided if without a strike committee elected, if at the rally we had allowed everybody who helped build it to speak and then and then I think there could have been,

01:04:42.449 - 01:05:01.889

I'm not sure about this because the politics are very different, but I think there could have been um a um. Uh, cooperation between the people who parachuted in and the old timers here throughout the strike, um, uh, rather than the kind of um of uh fighting

01:05:01.889 - 01:05:17.729

that there was, um, but. Did you see this notion that like at the time that my people were sort of outsiders coming in and trying to take over? Was that your perception? Um, I don't see it in those in those ways. I think there's some people

01:05:17.729 - 01:05:39.620

who um who people uh who help build for, um, who helped build um. Who helped build Solidarity Day, who um, who, um. Uh, wanted to to participate in the strike and they came in and they saw a situation and, and, um. Um, they felt that, um.

01:05:40.719 - 01:06:10.179

Uh They saw the need for a strike committee. They saw the need for uh rank and file of the leadership of the strike, and um they um went about organizing it, um and um and uh. Yeah, I mean, they took it over, um, but there were,

01:06:10.239 - 01:06:28.979

um. I'm not so upset about them taking it over as I am about the conservative nature of their leadership during the course of the strike we get into that although you were not in the center of things the way you were before. No, no, no, I

01:06:28.979 - 01:06:44.389

was, I was on the strike committee. That's what I mean, I remember you and I had some interesting picket lines during the strike about some of this stuff. And you know, I know that. There was a sort of growing perception, you know, among people in the

01:06:44.389 - 01:06:59.340

league that. This is not going to win without Teamster support some way or other, you know, uh, we have to sort of find some way to kind of maintain the rank and file thing at the same time have some kind of working relationship with the more

01:06:59.340 - 01:07:15.570

reasonable people in the, you know, in the union leadership, and if Sergio will let us use the hall, we'll stop trashing him, you know, that kind of thing, and that, that didn't happen all at once, um. Because you know, initially the. You know, Mike's whole thing

01:07:15.570 - 01:07:39.850

is we should be working through TDU, you know, uh, that the oppositional thing was much more appealing earlier than later. And actually I think down the road, uh. It's a whole other story. Well, what happened was what happened. Uh This is here's a, here's a major,

01:07:40.090 - 01:08:02.219

here's a major criticism. When when when in the period before October 6th. Strike strategy. What we're gonna do was argued out at open meetings. Everybody's invited to TDU meetings, yeah, but these TDU meeting attended were they? We're talking about that period between June 30th and very

01:08:02.219 - 01:08:18.629

well attended this time we're very well attended and also TDU meetings are becoming union meetings. In other words, we're controlling the we, we can get any vote we want at the union. Um, and the total disarray at that point. I mean, King was off, you know.

01:08:20.939 - 01:08:36.689

Yeah, but that's, I mean, there's a strike, yeah, I mean there was the sense I got it at 9:12 almost was nonfunctional at that point. Well, that's what I was trying to explain before. TDU had kind of replaced 912. That's why we made a mistake about

01:08:36.689 - 01:08:56.589

the about strike committees so. That's where strategy was decided was in those open meetings right. After when when. I think of it as all LRS. It may not be that may not be the right way to think of it, but when LRS arrived in town, when

01:08:56.589 - 01:09:23.009

we, when they were excluded from the rally and they started meeting with rank and filers that they found, um, and, um, put together um the um the strike committee um elections um and. Ran hard against um uh Jose Lopez is um as being even being on

01:09:23.009 - 01:09:51.579

the strike committee. That meeting was the last general meeting that the strike committee ever had. And that infuriated me. So that yes, a strike committee is like a more democratic sort of structurally more democratic than proceeded to do all the strategy all in private, all begins

01:09:51.579 - 01:10:08.549

early negotiating with Sergio, um, uh, uh, and so. Part of the reason that now I don't think we could have maintained the fever pitch that we had but part of the reason that there was less participation was because there weren't public meetings deciding these things. There

01:10:08.549 - 01:10:25.640

was now the strike committee was now in command in ways that TDU never tried to be in command, um, uh, and that is my major that's my major, um, criticism that's interesting. Um, and I think that had to do with the, with the, and then the

01:10:25.640 - 01:10:47.450

fact that people got poisoned towards us. I don't blame LRS as much as that as I blame just the actual course of the strike, um, uh. Um, As a matter of fact, What I learned during, if there had been a guillotine, if there had been a

01:10:47.450 - 01:11:06.209

guillotine. In the hands of the strike committee, um, we would not be here today having this interview. And I understood the French Revolution in a lot of different ways because what happens is is that people throw up a leadership but the leadership is because of the

01:11:06.209 - 01:11:21.250

overall situation the leadership is not capable of leading them to victory and then they get tired they want what what's happening here and so they turn to a different leadership and and the way that happens just in terms of ordinary human events is because these other

01:11:21.250 - 01:11:40.669

guys were fucking us up. And um and so people were frustrated. Nothing's happening. What else can we do? And so they turned away from TDU and turned towards um the new strike committee led by LRS and we became uh the persona non grata and um and

01:11:41.009 - 01:12:04.919

organized around the strike support committee and um. That was terribly unfair, but it wasn't so much LRS's fault as it was the fact of the people were frustrated and, and, and nothing was happening, so, um. No, that, well, that's, that's a different take on that whole

01:12:05.250 - 01:12:19.450

process, you know, I'm grateful to you for it. Um, You know, I wasn't down there except for the big events. I'd go down and pick it and I'd, you know, with my tape recorder and shit and I didn't even write about it that much for unity,

01:12:19.540 - 01:12:34.959

you know, generally people on the scene who were doing it. I was too busy with the, you know, the hormel stuff, but um. I was privy to the discussions and I know there were a lot of. Adjustments and agonizing and soul searching and you know do

01:12:34.959 - 01:12:46.899

we do this, do that and there was, you know, there are times when people felt, you know, it's like making the same mistake that you described to you making early on of like sort of relying on the most militant people, not necessarily the ones who had

01:12:46.899 - 01:13:01.750

the most influence or even the best judgment, um, so you know it was a huge, uh, and of course by the time it was over it was a huge investment in that, you know, the success of that strike. Um, when I did the radio show, the

01:13:01.750 - 01:13:16.299

one part of Joe's interview that I really felt compelled to use was that. At the end, you know, uh. Where first he analyzed, you know, what was wrong with the initial settlement that came back and it's one of the things I want to ask Shavelo about

01:13:16.299 - 01:13:32.890

actually because I know he was on the negotiating committee. Uh, But also like going to Sergio's house that night, you know, saying please sign this letter. I drafted it for you. I'll distribute. I just want your signature and you know, oh, you don't know about this,

01:13:34.129 - 01:13:51.029

um. Joe, and I think probably some other people were worried that. The nonpart time people, the year-round workers who would not be affected by that health, you know, the new hire provision for the health benefits would basically go back in because the teamsters said it was

01:13:51.029 - 01:14:06.700

OK to go back in that kind of thing. And, you know, Joe took it on himself to draft a letter saying it's very important that we keep our ranks together, you know, either everybody goes back in or nobody goes back in. Uh, because they had voted

01:14:06.700 - 01:14:20.600

to reject that settlement or to go back to the negotiating table for more, but there was a substantial minority who just had enough, and there was a worry that some of them would go back in, so Joe. Went to Sergio's house with this letter. Asked Sergio

01:14:20.600 - 01:14:35.930

to sign it and Sergio told me the same story you all sound you you fucking son of a bitch. You like the chicken shit asshole I think was thera and uh. Uh, he's better, you know, and, and Joe said, and I knew he would sign it

01:14:35.930 - 01:14:50.669

because as angry as he was at me, he wouldn't want the strike to end that way, you know, with the ranks breaking. Uh, and just like I knew it was a winnable demand, you know, to get that whole thing to get people treated like as, as,

01:14:50.680 - 01:15:00.500

as not as new hires for the purposes of getting health and it would have been easy enough to fix. And just, just like I knew that was a win on the demand, I knew that Sergio would sign that letter even if he hate my guts while

01:15:00.500 - 01:15:15.740

he did it. So you know, I actually thought. That was a rather classy move for for Joe to make, and it must have taken some nerve. I mean, I, I would have had a hard time in his shoes going there and, you know, bearding the guy

01:15:15.740 - 01:15:28.310

down in his own house and getting my head bitten off, you know, but, uh, you know, there's a little bit of a, of a reading history backwards there but on Joe's part we didn't know it was a winnable demand. We just know we didn't want the

01:15:28.310 - 01:15:45.709

settlement. We didn't know it would be so easy to win it, and I think it was one. By the, the peregrinacion, I think that's what won it and of course that was something that just sort of came from spontaneously, absolutely fucking spontaneously, and that's what won

01:15:45.709 - 01:16:09.830

it because that they there was a few people who tried to go back. They turned it back me. This is Peter. This is my wife Julie. OK OK. Um, There are a few people who tried to go back, easily stopped, but The the walk to the

01:16:09.830 - 01:16:28.620

church on the knees. Caused it uh to give up. That's, that's what did it, and that was unplanned and just spontaneously came out of nowhere. I don't know if that hadn't happened, what would have happened. The the hunger strike wouldn't have stopped him, um, and, um,

01:16:29.069 - 01:16:45.680

uh, so. Yeah, in retrospect, it was an easily winnable demand, but it took a lot of, well, it took guts was to oppose it at a at the mass meeting. That's what took guts as far as I'm concerned, and, um, and then, and that's not a

01:16:45.680 - 01:17:04.919

time when Oscar and the boys covered themselves with glory either, um, I said, uh, you know, uh, I remember, you know, there was some con you know, some mixed feelings about that whole situation. Uh in the discussions I heard, you know, um. But I was removed

01:17:04.919 - 01:17:23.819

from it, you know, yeah, well, they, the, the strike committee. Gloria actually said, well, there's no question that's when we went out on strike for the health benefits in the first place, of course, they weren't going back without him. You know that was her. When did

01:17:23.819 - 01:17:32.529

you say that? Uh, about a month ago she didn't say that at the time didn't say that at the time. Yeah, no, I mean she, she says it on the radio too, so you know she's also reinterpreting. No, no, the strike committee wanted the, the strike

01:17:32.529 - 01:17:48.705

committee wanted to accept it, yeah, I should write down the uh the website for you so. to the broadcast, I mean, probably you'll probably enjoy it. OK, yeah, yeah, no, the strike committee wanted us to accept the agreement and, um, and then if there hadn't, and

01:17:48.705 - 01:18:08.240

if TDU hadn't been around, the agreement would have been accepted because it needed some strong people to step forward and say no. You don't think that um. Joe wasn't the only person raising that objection to the the settlement, I gather. I mean there were other people.

01:18:08.279 - 01:18:20.169

It's just it was a question of like, is this something you want. Reject out of hand. Is it, is, are we gonna have an organized attempt? Are we gonna have an organized no vote, you know, is it gonna be something that people are gonna get together

01:18:20.169 - 01:18:42.939

on and, um, and speak for and, um, and, uh, um, you wanted some paper. I got, I got paper yeah it's OK. Oh no, you'll see it in the movie, you'll see it in the movie. There's a, there was a big, there was a big meeting

01:18:42.939 - 01:19:04.899

at the union hall where the strike committee had to face. Um, Folks and tell them about it. And um, No, that's the most for me, it was the most dramatic part of the strike, you know, I remember you're saying that at the time, actually. Um, Well,

01:19:04.979 - 01:19:23.169

there's, there's your, uh, you can listen to it. You'll you'll find it reasonably neutral, I think, in the presentation, yeah, um, as I told Joe, I, there's nothing more pointless than trying to refight old battles, you know, it doesn't, doesn't help you understand them, you know,

01:19:23.200 - 01:19:44.149

you can't change what happened either, so yeah, um, well, except I mean, you know, um. Well, you know, the way the Chinese were where they used to fight contemporary contemporary fights by some reinterpretation of something that happened in the 8th century, you know, I mean. Reverse

01:19:44.149 - 01:20:09.810

that's a little different, yeah, reverse the verdict, reverse the verdict, yeah, yeah, uh uh. I mean that that's, that's a cultural peculiar political discourse in China, not just the cultural revolution, you know, I sort of done with analogies, yeah, they never read the 18th there I

01:20:09.810 - 01:20:28.520

guess it's not careful, yeah, so. Yeah, well, I want to, uh, try to get back to like step by step. You Lost your job. Before the election 82, you got hired back on an ancient age, so you remember you were able to run. Uh, you were

01:20:28.520 - 01:20:41.540

not prepared for the strong showing you made. You were faced with the possibility you might have actually wound up trying to run the goddamn local, which you were not in any way prepared to do, or were you? No, it's only I was disappointed that we didn't

01:20:41.540 - 01:21:07.200

win, but I didn't know what was coming in terms of what was gonna happen to the frozen food industry. Why don't you elaborate on that? Um, Uh, Um, Well, I mean, we didn't see in '82, we didn't see that the frozen food industry was uh was

01:21:07.200 - 01:21:23.080

on the way down. And so, um, did you feel that way when the strike broke out that it was that the industry was on the verge of it, you know. Um, we knew that the industry was moving to Mexico, um, and we, um, you write about

01:21:23.080 - 01:21:43.569

this in the the article, yes, yes, and yeah, and, um, uh. Uh. We knew that um, I mean, I. During when the strike strike lasted a long time, so I did a lot of research on the frozen food industry during the strike, and we figured it

01:21:43.569 - 01:22:04.459

out during the strike, but you ever talk to Mike about this, excuse me, um, I'm gonna have to put my stuff together, you sure, absolutely, thank you. I don't we. We're underfoot, yeah, and I'll clean up and everybody who comes in the house can be if

01:22:04.459 - 01:22:28.040

you're a lover, somebody brought us a big box they're delicious, but nobody wants more than pearls before swine would be in my case, but thank you. Oh, what am I doing with coffee? Yeah Well, the tape recorder is still running, so that's uh. It's get cracking

01:22:28.040 - 01:23:03.740

here So. So what happened was that um you know that sometime. In the 80s, the frozen food market, um. Leveled off that, you know, it's, it's a very young industry and there was um overcapacity in frozen food. And they stopped building new, they stopped building any

01:23:03.740 - 01:23:30.660

new frozen food plants and um the big boys started moving to Mexico. um, Birds Eye was in Mexico. And um And Mexico was not yet putting frozen food in small packages. They were um bulk packing it and sending it to the United States, so it wasn't

01:23:30.660 - 01:23:45.399

clear and it wasn't clear if they ever were gonna do that. So it wasn't, it wasn't like an automobile plant getting up and moving completely, you know, there was still an integrated production process, um, but they were in Mexico and they were paying $4 a day

01:23:45.399 - 01:24:10.270

in Mexico and we knew that that was a threat, but the idea. That Going to Mexico is what the the wages had to be lowered because they're going to Mexico um we knew that. That the move to Mexico was in response to stagnation here, the stagnation

01:24:10.270 - 01:24:29.100

in the market here because like fresh vegetables, you know, like frozen, well, you know, in the 50s, your, your mom used a bunch of frozen vegetables which um you don't use now. I mean, um small packages of frozen vegetables went out of favor and um. And

01:24:29.100 - 01:24:59.790

the industry consolidated. Um, Uh, the only thing that really saved the industry was, um, was, um. In terms of the gross figures was the potatoes. Frozen potatoes, frozen potatoes, um, uh. So. During the strike. And in terms of the most important thing. Locally about interpretation of

01:24:59.790 - 01:25:24.149

the strike is that locally what's happened is that people blame the strike. The sort of the official Watsonville opinion now is that the strike drove the industry out of town. Yeah. That um that the industry left because of the because of the strike in response to

01:25:24.149 - 01:25:37.629

the strike. And in fact, the industry had already started going to Mexico before the strike, and the strike had nothing to do with it. I told me that Sergio actually was really pushing the union to start organizing plants in Mexico. Do you know anything that way?

01:25:38.339 - 01:25:54.600

Um, Joe, Joe, I think knows something about it. This would have been like a little farther down the road when Joe was Sergio was because there were attempts. We were among the first Watsonville was among the first groups of people who were trying to, um, um,

01:25:55.049 - 01:26:19.859

get like, um, you know, personal, person to person contact, and so there were delegations. Shave went down. Joe went down, um, uh, the Navarros went down. Uh, people went to Iolato and talked to, to frozen food workers, um, but it was, um. It never Got the

01:26:19.859 - 01:26:37.700

kind of endorsement from the top that the UE efforts got in the Macalladora. I mean, you know, UE really has tried to build a, has built a very close relationship with FOT in, um, in Mexico and, um, has made, I think, um, the cross border connections

01:26:37.700 - 01:26:53.459

more than just rhetoric. You say the UE. Yeah, yeah, OK, um. Uh, so I don't think, I think the teamsters, if they had gotten those the kind of thing that you would need like a long range perspective and money and um, you're not even talking about

01:26:53.459 - 01:27:04.339

the teamsters doing, you're talking about the UE doing it then the UE pardon me, you're not Sergio was trying to get the teamsters to do some work. That's what I like to go, but you're saying the UE actually did it. The teamsters never did. The teamsters

01:27:04.339 - 01:27:19.750

never did. There were attempts to make and there were not only attempts, people made direct, direct contact and wrote each other and stuff like that, but without. Without the endorsement and the money and the and the sustained interests of people at the top, it didn't happen

01:27:20.279 - 01:27:34.290

and we're we're, and I think that it could have happened, and I use that's why I brought it UE because UE has established a relationship with FO. It's a long lasting and it's helped fought quite a bit. Um, which is all you really can hope to

01:27:34.290 - 01:27:49.529

do, I think. Could the teachers have organized in Mexico? I mean, it's a question I don't know, yeah, yeah. I don't think so. I, I don't know of any. People talk all the time about cross-border organizing. It seems like it's a, you know, it's a nice

01:27:49.529 - 01:28:06.790

gleam in somebody's eye, but it's very hard for me to visualize how it actually happened. But the way, the way the UE did it was to try to support, uh, sort of a left rank and file, uh, union formation in Mexico those copper miners, you know,

01:28:08.029 - 01:28:23.399

Mexico right now, yeah, try to support things that are going on there rather than to come in and try to organize, yeah, yeah, well I mean. Can't see how else to do it, but we digress again um. Now Actually, at some point you say you did

01:28:23.399 - 01:28:33.430

a lot of research on the industry during the strike. I'd like to talk to you more about that at some point because it's something I'll have to write about. I know very little about some of what you told me I heard from Mike too, which is

01:28:33.430 - 01:28:48.279

that the handwriting was on the wall before the strike. There was overcapacity, and it wasn't even because consumer tastes were changing so much because new industries tend to expand too far, and then they have to contract and then there's a consolidation. It's a capitalist development in

01:28:48.279 - 01:29:06.180

action. Um, that's true, but there's also a big change in consumer taste, availability of fresh vegetables right don't eat frozen food, yeah, yeah, right, right, even when they grow up, yeah, yeah, yeah, um. I mean, actually, I'm surprised that there's still as much. Of a presence,

01:29:06.299 - 01:29:24.540

you know, that kind of thing is, you know, well, it's older people, I think, um, specialty dinners, it's not just like bulk, like, you know, we weren't Watsonville wasn't particularly into this specialty dinners they would send out, uh, right, yeah, I used to buy from my

01:29:24.540 - 01:29:41.419

mom at Costco, you know, those meals and exactly that's what sells. That's what that's yeah, but Watsonville didn't have a hand in that. No, Watsonville spent, uh, it's a little thing of frozen broccoli. And the one place that's still operating in Watsonville is non-union, right? What

01:29:41.419 - 01:29:58.169

do they do? No, no, it's union. It is union. What do they do? Um, they do a lot of frozen fruit and they do some frozen, uh, vegetables. Um, Delmar, you can, the guy's very accessible. Delmar Foods, and, um, if you just call them up, it'd

01:29:58.169 - 01:30:19.770

be very easy to get an interview there. There's a guy, Mosconi was he around during the strike. Yes. Mhm. He was known as the reasonable. Joe is the person who knows him real well. He was the reasonable boss and actually, I mean, and he's the one

01:30:19.770 - 01:30:41.609

guy who survived. I Um, let me, because we're gonna be running out of time soon, uh. I want to try to reconstruct. When, when was it? Do you remember exactly when it was when Sergio and uh Leon Ellis took you guys up into the into the

01:30:41.609 - 01:31:00.660

hills to talk about uh what King was doing? This was before June 30th, right before the strike began, but it was before King unilaterally King uh consul unilaterally imposed those terms. It's when they suspected that something like that was gonna happen. What were the warning signs?

01:31:00.700 - 01:31:18.810

Did they tell you? All I can remember is that wonderful thing that Ellis said about Mort Contel came in and took a shit on Richard King's desk. Yeah, he actually said that. Um, that's all I can't remember the details, but they, they, their position was. Consul

01:31:18.810 - 01:31:34.490

is forcing a strike. Consul wants a strike. Is Ellis still around? I think he is. Yeah, yeah, actually, I would imagine Sergio would, would be able to tell me the story, you know, uh, I, I would assume that he saw he was there when consul walked

01:31:34.490 - 01:31:49.939

into the, you know, this part of the negotiations or, or, or that maybe just have been, um, uh, Leon's manner of speaking, you know, um, and that might not have actually, I mean, the shit didn't actually happen. But I mean it, it may not have happened

01:31:49.939 - 01:32:02.069

in the union office. It could have happened, yeah, it was, it could have happened in negotiations that it was clear from the negotiations. When did they start negotiating? I don't know. You don't know. Yeah, no, I, this is stuff I should learn from Sergio, I suppose.

01:32:02.859 - 01:32:16.529

And Kono was really pissed off about the deal that Shaw got. And there was real competition. Wait a minute, wait, I thought that that Consul was the one who got the deal, and Shaw was pissed off about it. Oh yeah, excuse me, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah,

01:32:16.890 - 01:32:31.160

and I, I don't blame Shaw, you know, I, I thought it was a wonderful irony that Shaw wound up buying, you know, Nor at the end, you know, Conso was supposedly trying to put him out of business, and they were in they were in they were

01:32:31.160 - 01:32:53.870

in competition with each other. They had the same. They were going for the same buyers and I remember one time just totally independent of of the strike um uh. Uh, I overheard a conversation. In a in a restaurant where a guy from one of them has

01:32:53.870 - 01:33:09.250

an airplane, one of them had an airplane and the other one didn't. And um and he was so proud of the fact that um the air that they'd gotten to this buyer ahead of time because they've taken the airplane and they've flown the airplane someplace in

01:33:09.250 - 01:33:22.089

Southern California and they talked to the buyer first and they wrapped up the deal before the competitor even walked in the door and the competitor had said, how do you guys do it? and um and it was the airplane we were so proud of that so

01:33:22.089 - 01:33:35.419

they had the same they really were in direct competition with each other. It seems a very small time too in a lot of ways. Oh, it is, it is, you know, small town businessmen trying to slit each other's throats. Yeah, yeah, it's not corporate capital. Oh

01:33:35.419 - 01:33:57.580

yeah, no, no, it is, it's not the only corporation in town was, well, Smuckers was here and Green Giant, yeah. Um, Well, now, you had this meeting, they were concerned even before. Uh Consult unilaterally imposed these terms on June 30th when the terms were imposed. Um,

01:33:57.879 - 01:34:17.680

basically, the, the deadline had come and gone. There was no agreement, rather than extending the contract for negotiations, counsel was within his rights to sort of impose terms unilaterally. Um, and he did. What was the reaction? I don't remember. You don't remember all I remember is.

01:34:18.580 - 01:34:40.470

A few meetings. At the union hall, regular union meetings, they may not even been regular they might have been special union meetings. Um, where. The basic attitude was. We can handle this. Don't, don't, don't panic. Don't make a big deal out of it. Um, you make

01:34:40.470 - 01:34:55.240

a big deal out of it, it's just gonna make it worse. If you walk out now, there won't be any unemployment benefits. You won't get strikes. You gotta do it according to channels, blah blah. And um wait for, wait, wait, wait to hear from us. No,

01:34:55.459 - 01:35:12.060

eventually there was a strike vote. Um, was it done according to Hoyle or was it more or less you don't remember, yeah, um, yeah, I'm, I've got to ask you these questions because so far I don't have any information on this to remember, um. And the

01:35:12.060 - 01:35:26.339

strike had been going on for a month actually on solidarity day happened on October 6th, um, and you guys were basically doing the grunt work of having the picket lines organized and so forth. We had become the union. That's kind of the way I think of

01:35:26.339 - 01:35:41.529

it. What about strikes? I mean, people were getting them for that first month, weren't they strike was remember. I don't remember. Yes, the strike was sanctioned. People were getting strikes. I don't know when remember when the strike benefits kicked in. I'm, I'm guessing that between June

01:35:41.529 - 01:36:00.350

30th and September 9th was it when people actually walked out, but that was the time it took for the international sanctions strike, yeah, that would be. Do you recall where the king actually tried to oppose uh prevent any strike vote from happening? Or whether Sergio did.

01:36:01.500 - 01:36:21.089

And it's pretty obvious they were, they weren't gonna be able to stop it. I don't remember that, um. I I don't, I don't remember. I don't remember that period. I remember that um King said in one meeting. Any fool, any fool can call a strike. It

01:36:21.089 - 01:36:43.950

takes um some intelligence to end one. Mhm. No arguments there, you know, I mean, it's actually, it's actually not that it's a smart observation. Well, I mean, a lot of what those guys say is smart based on years of experience and a fairly ruthless business, you

01:36:43.950 - 01:37:02.470

know, uh. Yeah, uh, but I don't remember that period. I don't remember what that line can go back on you gotta have a little go in you, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, uh. Anyway, um, Yes, I shouldn't probably be asking you about this stuff. I pick up

01:37:02.470 - 01:37:22.870

on like that whole period between before the strike before solidarity day. Um Now here's another question, uh, Alex told me that he arrived in town, basically. The international and I guess joint council has gotten word that Watsonville was totally out of control, that Richard King had

01:37:22.870 - 01:37:38.279

lost control of the local, that he was. Pretty much out of the loop, he wasn't able to function, much less, you know, run a strike and. Oh I think the way Alex put it is I'd heard there was this kind of quasi revolution going on. I

01:37:38.279 - 01:37:48.879

was supposed to go in there and see what's going on. Did you guys see his arrival in town as a threat or as something that was aimed at you? You didn't give it any pain on your mind. When did he come here? Uh, I think it

01:37:48.879 - 01:38:04.910

was right. I'm not sure. I believe it was right after solidarity Day, but the two things he did was, first of all, he reported back to. Uh, international that Richard King was a huge liability to the union and Something had to happen to provide some some

01:38:04.910 - 01:38:23.709

leadership there. Uh, and it probably. Got the international. Committed to kind of intervening in a presumably positive way it would keep the strike going at least for the time being, but the other conclusion you reached was that um um. The Shaw strike should not have happened

01:38:24.120 - 01:38:36.919

that Shaw was on the verge of bankruptcy partly because of that deal that K had cut with console a few years before. And that consul was gonna use to strike to try to drive Shaw out of business, so the thing to do would be to settle

01:38:36.919 - 01:38:52.589

with Shaw and then to focus all the union's resources on console, uh, and he said that the settlement with Shaw was a difficult proposition because of course nobody that Shah really wanted to settle and the Washington volcanic people were pissed off because, you know. The misery

01:38:52.589 - 01:39:10.129

loves company, as he put it, you know, that that's his analysis. I'm just curious about your take. Yeah, well, our take was it was a bad deal that, um, he, he conceded that readily. He said that they had good, good contracts in cans was passed, you

01:39:10.129 - 01:39:22.419

know, and we knew that, uh. The trick is to keep consul from driving the union now, which was clearly what was going on at that point. It wasn't about the terms of the contract anymore. It was just like, are we gonna be able to maintain a

01:39:22.419 - 01:39:34.319

master agreement? Are we gonna be able to maintain a union presence and what can I, you know, so. Well, was he, you think that was the best they could get? Do you think that was the best they could get? How the hell should I know? Yeah,

01:39:35.279 - 01:39:47.169

I don't know. I mean, it's, it's, it depends on so many things. A lot of what determines what the best you can get is is whether the union is equipped to put up a fight and who's running the union and what I mean, it's like these

01:39:47.169 - 01:40:01.970

are all, you know, subjective factors but it doesn't make them any less real, um. This is something that took me a long time to learn, I think, is that you assess how much you can do, how hard you can push. A lot of it has to

01:40:01.970 - 01:40:14.549

be based on whether you can get. The people who should be working with you aren't to go along with you up to a point, you know. And I think I'm kind of steering away from my energy role here, but I think that was one of the

01:40:14.549 - 01:40:29.379

big lessons. The people in the league drew from the strike because it's like for years like everybody else even sort of sitting up down with the bureaucrats and that sort of stuff and labor lieutenants of capital or whatever the phrase was. And The reality was you're

01:40:29.379 - 01:40:45.750

put in a situation where you're in a very difficult, very intense, very long, brutal strike. You want to win. You realize that in order for it to win, you have to find some way of getting the union at least partly on your side. So you put

01:40:45.750 - 01:40:59.020

aside all your rhetoric and your, you know, your, your misgivings about the corruption, you know, Jackie Presser and his sedan chair and all that kind of stuff. Well, how can we, is there anything in there that we can exploit or use to our advantage? And I,

01:40:59.080 - 01:41:13.729

you know, I think that was kind of a breakthrough. Uh, on the other hand, I think it got taken too far. I'm sure you would agree, white flags carrying a march in the middle of the strike where you carrying white flag Watsonville, but you know, um.

01:41:16.149 - 01:41:30.640

I'm sure you know what happened to the league afterwards. I don't know what happened to the leagues. Well, I got sucked up in the Jackson campaign and basically it was like a replay of 1944. I could get my drift, you know, that's my analysis, um, and

01:41:30.640 - 01:41:47.810

I think there are a whole bunch of the CP basically became an appendage of the Rose Bowl, you know, and. Built this whole kind of analysis about the post-war peace that was going to happen that you know there'd be sort of aggressive capitalism and alliance with

01:41:47.810 - 01:42:05.669

the Soviet Union and the United Nations and blah blah blah all this stuff was just moonshine. But people wanted very badly to believe it and they did and um they were totally unprepared when the Cold War hit, you know, that's. And you know there are still

01:42:05.669 - 01:42:20.259

people who went through that who think that they made a mistake by getting away from it. You ever read Sarabin's book? uh. I forget what the title of it is, um. He was kind of a wacky character, but yeah, I knew his son real well, yeah,

01:42:20.459 - 01:42:38.700

yeah, the one who committed suicide, yeah. And as I knew his sister, I knew that boy's sister too. Well, the, the gist of this book was that Earl Browder was right, and then, you know, when the international communist International intervened and, you know, trashed him. They

01:42:38.700 - 01:42:54.180

didn't really have the intellectual clout, much less than political nerve to say no, this is what we think is right and we're sticking to our guns, so they basically caved in without really understanding what they were doing and they proceeded to follow their. Right areas with

01:42:54.180 - 01:43:10.740

a bunch of left areas, you know, and, um, you know, fell apart, isolated themselves, and so on. But you know, the whole thing is um. Here's this organization it looked like it was on the verge of becoming a part of mainstream American politics, influencing millions of

01:43:10.740 - 01:43:31.040

people, you know, not just sort of being a fringe agitational group, and somehow it slipped through their fingers. How did that happen? Well, You know, After that strike, you know. And then, you know, Jackson's campaign at 80 was a really big deal, you know. Uh, by

01:43:31.040 - 01:43:48.560

all rights should have won the Democratic nomination, you know, it's like. He was embracing all of our causes, you know, that kind of stuff. Um, But life just isn't like that, you know, and uh I think because also the genius of the Democratic Party. Well, no,

01:43:48.689 - 01:43:58.884

nobody ever thought that it was the genius of the Democratic Party. It was all about, you know, the Rainbow Coalition, but it's the same. No, but I mean the the genius of the Democratic Party is that they can it's a. Ability to deal with things like

01:43:58.884 - 01:44:16.830

the when you say that you're you're, I feel like you're channeling Paul Jacobs. remember that class at San Francisco State? He'd have you come in here and fill in for him. We're back in 1967, I believe, um, I was a. Sophomore at SF State then you

01:44:16.830 - 01:44:35.509

would come in from time when Paul was junking you forgotten all about? I've forgotten all about this. I've forgotten all about this. I have. Uh, anyway, um, this was that Paul was constantly hammering home and of course, to a bunch of, you know, young new lefties

01:44:35.509 - 01:44:50.970

it was a very appealing line is that the. Everybody was, he had us reading repressive tolerance and the ability of the Democratic Party to go in there and co-opt popular movements and absorb them and screw them up and so the graveyard of popular movements as the

01:44:50.970 - 01:45:03.620

Democratic Party's graveyard of reform movements in America. Well, you know that kind of thing influenced me for a long time and then later on I sort of came to the conclusion that like nobody can make a monkey out of someone who isn't a monkey to begin

01:45:03.620 - 01:45:25.399

with, you know, that if you're. Subject to that kind of absorption, it's not because the ruling class is omnipotent, it's because you haven't thought things through yourself and um. I actually um Ever read Al Richmond's book? Yeah, he talks about this stuff very thoughtfully, I think,

01:45:26.200 - 01:45:40.770

you know, it's not just that, you know, that the standard new left analysis of the CPS or the Democrats came and co-opted them, and they, they caved in. They turned into reformists. And no it's much more complicated than that. You, you take that line and basically

01:45:40.770 - 01:45:55.169

you're rejecting any kind of united front work which you just cannot do, uh, but it's the trickiest thing in the world to do, you know, it's so hard to know when you're making a principled compromise and when you're simply taking a lot of these resistance, and

01:45:55.169 - 01:46:08.560

I mean this whole thing about single payer is another example of it, you know, I'm not gonna get the trash percentage because he. Changed his vote in the game by his not changing it and why trash him? The man's an ally, you know, he's done about

01:46:08.560 - 01:46:26.370

as much as anybody could be expected to do in that situation. Yeah, um, well, I think part of the answer to this is, is, um. Is that these questions become a hell of a lot harder when you're just dealing in the realm of electoral politics. That's

01:46:26.370 - 01:46:48.770

true. Um, uh. Because it, it brings out the worst in everybody, yeah, yeah, um, and I've never really talked to Oscar about his experience as mayor, you know, you know, I thought he was. You know, brilliant the way you handle, you know, things in that strike

01:46:48.770 - 01:46:59.310

you've raised an interesting criticism of it, you know. Uh, which I'll have to ask him about to see what he thinks, you know who else might want to talk to you who almost came with me this morning who've been able to, you don't, I don't think

01:46:59.310 - 01:47:14.939

you know Tom Ryan. No, he works with labor and community services, uh, for the San Francisco Labor Council now he runs the program there. He's taking a um Class at UMass Amherst where they basically fly you in for a week to take classes and you go

01:47:14.939 - 01:47:29.209

back home and write a research paper. It's, you know, a labor studies program they have sounds like a neat idea, but um, he says the teacher knows you. I didn't tell, tell me your name, but uh. Tom's project is the, you know, the role of the

01:47:29.209 - 01:47:45.490

left in the Watsonville strike, so I said, well, hell, you know, come with me, you know you and I can talk. He's at UMass Amherst, uh, yeah, yeah, his teacher is Bob Poland maybe, could be, he didn't mention any names, yeah, but you know I, I

01:47:45.490 - 01:48:02.120

sent Tom. The transcripts of my interviews, you know, he was fascinated, you know, so, uh, you know, I think at some point he'll probably want to look you up. Oh yeah, sure, I'll be happy to talk to him um because this is really what. Um, it's

01:48:02.120 - 01:48:17.490

all about, no, I, you know. I was up in Portland really a lot of the time Oscar was mayor and we moved in '94, uh, and even when we were in the Bay Area, you know, things are kind of falling apart in 1990, uh, so people.

01:48:19.279 - 01:48:22.930

Didn't see that much of each turn this thing off bullshitting now.