00:00:00.319 - 00:00:25.889

OK, let me. So, first of all, um. I want to get your reactions off the top of your head of that document you just read the one from Blake Blake, yeah, the memo from Blakeney Winmeister. I guess I'm not shocked. You're not, no, um. I'm not

00:00:25.889 - 00:00:45.659

shocked that they, you know, I'm not shocked that they would tell Sergio what he wanted to think and do what they were going to do and. I, I kind of was because people lost. Not only 2 weeks' pay, but their health benefits for the month of

00:00:45.659 - 00:01:03.000

August as a result of that. And it seems like they could have. They could have just gone back to the bargaining table and gotten a few crumbs, you know, and you know, dragged the negotiating process out a little longer. It was like a real application of

00:01:03.000 - 00:01:19.139

the shock doctrine, and I don't think it was necessary to accomplish what they were trying to do. Um, my reaction was that these guys were really. It was as much as of a power play on their part to show that they were running things in the

00:01:19.139 - 00:01:41.319

local and to persuade Weinmeister that that's what they were doing. Yeah, I mean, but if they're. I mean, if the history. Of their history in the union and this isn't this is just pure speculation but I'm just offering an alternate. Idea if their history in the

00:01:41.319 - 00:02:01.559

union was make a deal with the employers. Period One could argue that that was their history. That's why there wasn't the That's why there was never a certification vote, right, because they came in and made a handshake with the employers. Well, there was a strike actually

00:02:01.559 - 00:02:18.789

originally wasn't there? There was, there was, and it was not necessarily the practice, you know, in the early days of this of the. NLRA. To have votes beforehand, you could just have a strike and then you know if it was strong enough, the employer would capitulate

00:02:18.789 - 00:02:37.320

and you wouldn't need to go through all the bureaucratic stuff, but my understanding, this is from Frank. I haven't done independent research or scholarship or whatever, but his point of view was that He was saying was the Food, tobacco and agriculture Workers Union had been trying

00:02:37.320 - 00:02:54.399

to organize the workers and it was parody with the the canners in San Jose, and we know historically that they came in less than the canners, and that was the Teamsters. We know that there was a handshake deal that was sought to bar the UFW later

00:02:54.399 - 00:03:09.970

so I'm just sort of saying if that's how you do business, this isn't an anomaly. No, I understand. And you see the, the employers as the key people in the equation and that they're trying to get stability and stuff, but it looked to me like I'm

00:03:09.970 - 00:03:27.330

just looking at these documents that the nature I I had forgot about that. That we had, we had gotten a better deal by turning down. I don't remember the details. It was a smaller plant. It was a smaller plant, and they, it was less at stake

00:03:27.330 - 00:03:43.570

for them, and I think I had as much trust as Sergio did at that point with those workers or more, right? It was, it was a it was a newer operation. Um, you know, said here went back a long time with a lot of these people,

00:03:43.690 - 00:04:04.259

so, you know, and Whatever, so I think that my word was at least as credible, if not more credible, that was to that particular group of workers when I was saying we're not vegetables and we're not directly in competition with people who make broccoli and. All

00:04:04.259 - 00:04:21.390

that kind of stuff, so. You mean right wasn't. And so it just, and then it just reminds me, OK, so this rosetti thing came on the heels of that. Right, I mean that was the leaflet. The workers just won by saying no or or not yet

00:04:22.239 - 00:04:43.809

at least. And so that probably. Play a factor in thinking. We can do that too, right. But it wasn't a comparable situation because they were in he was in direct competition with Was Ganon. Right, no, I just, I just had forgotten about that. So that, that

00:04:43.809 - 00:05:00.850

was, that was, but that was, I think, yeah, I mean, um, it is, and I think probably the other thing that Blake says in his memo to Weinmeister is the Crossetti deal was really crucial, not just because, you know, there was all this agitation going on

00:05:00.850 - 00:05:15.739

there. But because they really wanted to keep diverting Watsonville Canning's business to Nate to Crosetti, and apparently Crosetti was already getting a lot of their business, um, so that it was, you know, they were using Crosetti to whip saw Watsonville Canning, and if the workers weren't

00:05:15.739 - 00:05:31.500

going to go along with it, it would just sort of screw everything up, so that. You know, My sense is that you can, you can justify, you can come up with a rationalization for the union strategy, sort of the classic thing you put one employer off

00:05:31.500 - 00:05:45.029

against the other. Uh, you would also say that it was done in a way that just treated the workers as irrelevant, you know, it's a very common thing in the labor movement, I think as we both know for that kind of dilemma to come up. It's

00:05:45.029 - 00:05:58.190

not like necessarily like one group was trying to screw up things up for the other group, but the way it worked in practice is that they were working at cross purposes and people would say that about a lot of the things that you like SEIU does

00:05:58.190 - 00:06:16.709

currently right in terms of they've got this big master plan and Yeah, that trumps the master plan always trumps a group of workers, you know, I'm starting off this chapter talking about the hormone workers because they came to Watsonville right around this time and You know,

00:06:16.769 - 00:06:35.059

there was a real identification with them because of what they were going through. And there are some pretty obvious parallels between what Louie Anderson was trying to do with the the meat packing, you know, trying to restore. Um, a master wage agreement and meatpacking by basically

00:06:35.059 - 00:06:58.429

bringing the floor down with what was happening, what the demonst are doing in Watsonville. Um And You know, to me it's almost Pure dumb luck, you know, that the war mill workers were not able to, they basically got crushed. And somehow the open break with the

00:06:58.429 - 00:07:20.690

union didn't happen in Watsonville, um. Do you have any thoughts on that on the top of your head? I mean, what, how would you account for that? I wasn't, I, I, I wasn't, I don't know, I. I've never been that interested in the Watsonville strike, really.

00:07:20.970 - 00:07:34.760

I mean in the sense of it's not like I didn't learn a lot from it, but I haven't been that interested. It's like, oh that was interesting. Let's go back and look at that. I just, I mostly felt exhausted through it and I was just. When

00:07:34.760 - 00:07:48.119

it finally settled and was over, I was glad and I haven't really done a comparison. I mean, my, I think my only and and then at the time I was too darn busy trying to figure out what to do next to to be doing that so

00:07:48.119 - 00:08:05.859

the the closest I got to. P9 was, I think I was at a labor notes conference during the strike in which it was a it was either a TDU convention or whatever and I wasmates with Jim Gayet who was the president. So you got to know

00:08:05.859 - 00:08:23.579

him a little bit and I just, it just sounded to me like it was way, way, way more polarized, even more, you know, in terms of, and he just thought that these people were evil. And I didn't so much think that they were, I mean. I

00:08:23.579 - 00:08:42.000

myself didn't think so much that some of the adversaries were evil. It's just they were doing what made sense given, given to them. Well, I think I might have told you that story about I, I called Jim up yeah you know I was getting all these

00:08:42.000 - 00:08:53.750

statements on the Watsonville strike after it was over. And Ray Rogers actually said this shows how important it is for you to have the union on your side, what a difference it made, you know, that the teams tried to help the strike instead of trying to

00:08:53.750 - 00:09:10.869

break it. Chavez said. You know, more than the wages, more than the benefits, it's after all those years of no fight back, they finally have a union in that plant, and that's what counts. Then I called Jim Galetta and the first thing he said was, what

00:09:10.869 - 00:09:26.000

did they settle for 585? What were they making when they went out 706? Well, why was it a victory. And you know, I really didn't know what to say except Jesus Christ, are we on the same planet here, you know, do you know what they went

00:09:26.000 - 00:09:38.169

through? Do you know that they drove their employer out of business, but there was no point in arguing with them. I was trying to get a quote from him, you know, but yeah, that was my sense that he was, I mean, and it wasn't like that

00:09:38.169 - 00:09:54.030

it was his leadership, but he was reflective of the thing and it was it was and it was mostly guys and it was mostly white guys and I don't know. I just think that. I think we were lucky that we had. You know, a large group

00:09:54.030 - 00:10:13.070

of Mexicans, a large group of women, um, and we had people, whether from the league or from different political groups or TDU who had at least Some kind of a history. I mean, and I think that, you know, I don't know. I mean Dean Shaw's was

00:10:13.070 - 00:10:31.169

probably not the. I don't know. I mean, I think I've said this probably at least every time I've seen you, but that. You know, I didn't speak up at Shaw's, you know, Frank was like, you should have, that's why people elected you, etc. and I didn't

00:10:31.169 - 00:10:52.619

know enough to know what I would have said then, but I've had more experience than then and I think it's, I think that I think Shaw's was was lost. That there were too many scabs running too many machines, um. And so They were going to go

00:10:52.619 - 00:11:08.280

back in for less because it was lost. I mean, the power had shifted in the in in the favor of the cannery. It doesn't mean that if they hadn't rejected the contract, even, you know, Dick Shaw wouldn't have come back and Made it 605 sounds a

00:11:08.280 - 00:11:24.700

hell of a lot better than 585 or 706, which would only be a dollar, you know, whatever. I think that there was probably room there and that the that the union was inclined, was more desperate to get something settled that they were willing to take more

00:11:25.260 - 00:11:41.010

to take less than, you know, did Sergio ever give any indication at the time that he thought that Alex had given up too much negotiating with? Not that you're aware of, yeah, because he, that's what he told me the last time I spoke to him. He

00:11:41.010 - 00:11:54.419

said, you know, Alec is a good guy, very smart. I liked him, but I think he tended to see things too much from the point of view of the company and maybe after thinking, you know, we all do it. Yeah, I just wanted to see, you

00:11:54.419 - 00:12:15.080

know, I mean, my surmise is that he basically never resisted that, that, that settlement at Shaw, you know, the 585 settlement that he basically let Alex call the shots and I do you know who was actually? Doing the negotiating at Crossetti. No, Sergio claimed it was

00:12:15.080 - 00:12:27.359

that he did it, that Blake had no role in it, and I, I just, I read that memo and I thought, I wonder if Blake went behind his back and if I don't know that it would have made a difference. I mean, it was whether it

00:12:27.359 - 00:12:45.659

was Sergio at the table or whether it was. Blake or or Alex having side meetings with them that I mean it was really clear what the deal was. The deal was the Shaw's deal, right? I mean, so. Everybody knew without even before they were even at

00:12:45.659 - 00:13:04.700

the table what the deal was. The deal was what Delmar got. The deal was what Shaw's got. Well, Del Mar and New West and Nari are all and fruits, right? None of them are vegetable processors. New West, Delmar, were all fruit, right? Yeah, yeah, so I

00:13:04.700 - 00:13:23.250

mean they might, they might have had some wiggle room that Chris said he did not have. Right, Smuckers was not competing directly with Watsonville County either. Suck Smuckers didn't do the deal. I think, lower the rates, but I don't think they lowered them nearly. Yeah, and

00:13:23.250 - 00:13:42.049

my guess is they went last in part because, you know, they didn't want to get in the way of. Sergio and Alex and Blake doing what they needed to do with these other plants, right? And if they, if they if they settled for 650, it would

00:13:42.049 - 00:13:56.869

have been harder to settle before New West and Del Mar, it would have been harder to settle. So, um, was the easiest one by the way for them to say New West was the easiest one. They just took it. Actually they, they got an extra nickel,

00:13:56.909 - 00:14:13.330

I think they got 590585, but they also ratified. You know, I think New West originally. Rejected it and then I didn't remember them ever rejecting it. Yeah, I don't, you know, I didn't even know any of this stuff at the time and maybe I wasn't at

00:14:13.330 - 00:14:26.510

the first meeting and I was at the meeting. I remember all the meetings were at the plant, um. And you know, I guess maybe that was to keep out the outsiders and to invoke no tress. Do you recall who did the organizing at Delmar to try

00:14:26.510 - 00:14:48.469

to stop it from going through who put that leaflet out it just said, you know. This is the one, right? Um, that's actually the Crossetti, yeah, yeah. Looks like Frank's typewriter, but yeah, that could be. He didn't remember. OK, um, even Frank finds that his memory

00:14:48.469 - 00:15:22.090

isn't infallible. There's so much sounds like me. I mean. My thing was short, short sentences, no unnecessary, let's think it over rhetoric here, right? Just I would always sort of like aim to the more cautious person. Well, actually, the Crossetti leaflet resembles this one in a

00:15:22.090 - 00:15:43.630

lot of ways, including this is not a strike, we just want something more in the bargaining table. Right, because the, the point was we were trying to. Right. And that was certainly my whether they were my words on a piece of paper and Frank typed them

00:15:43.630 - 00:16:00.570

up um or whether it was in consultation with them Frank and and workers saying, you know, let's not. Let's not strike. Let's just say we're trying to get time and then if we get the time, then we'll use the time to figure out where we are.

00:16:00.979 - 00:16:12.340

I want to talk about the workers at all these plants, you know, how many of them you actually knew or how many of them had been had that Frank had connections with the crews had connections with Sergio told me there was a whole core of people,

00:16:12.460 - 00:16:31.739

you know, at Crosetti that had TDU ties and um. You know, I, I didn't recognize any of the names on that leaflet and you told me you didn't either. OK, so I believe this is Reyes. I believe this is and it's Reyes Jimenez didn't run for

00:16:31.739 - 00:16:48.940

a trustee? Either on the people's slate or the TDUDU slate, I think it was people slate, I think he was on it. I think he ran with Guillermina for trustee. I can go back and look it up. I don't have it with me. Let's see. Yeah,

00:16:49.010 - 00:17:12.050

I don't remember, but I believe he's Crosetti. And he's in the video. I looked at the, the, I looked at the video and um I believe the person who was like the MC on the video, I believe that's her, very pretty, uh. I'm just very pretty

00:17:12.050 - 00:17:46.410

woman. Younger or younger, dark with black hair, lighter skin. Carmen Morales, I've got Reyes' last contact information too to give you because he might know. Last I know Reyes was buses, school buses, and that's 10 years. I mean, I'm down to the wire. I don't know

00:17:46.410 - 00:17:59.010

but anyways, you might call I mean I mean I'll just see if I can I'll give you the last info I have. OK. And you know Frank may run into him. um Carmen Morales, that's the one I told you that was the only name that you

00:17:59.010 - 00:18:17.650

read that I recognized for sure, and she's definitely on the video twice. Once and neither one of them is she subtitled is who it is. One question I have for you to make it easier is I'm wondering if John. Kept track of who was on the

00:18:17.650 - 00:18:37.119

on the video. You know, I only spoke with him for about an hour and um but I yeah, um, I don't know my hunches, I might have asked him something like that at one point, but I can call him back. So I'm not positive about that,

00:18:37.290 - 00:18:51.250

but I'm thinking Reyes would know. I'm also wondering, I mean, sorry, I don't mind trying to create extra work. It was just my my mind was going as like it would almost be cool to get all the people that you'd interviewed together and just run the

00:18:51.250 - 00:19:07.619

tape and you turn it off so you don't have to see and just the only purpose of watching this together is to identify people who appear. Do you remember that cop? Do you, I mean, anybody, you know. Anyways, because it is a record and it's like

00:19:07.619 - 00:19:19.900

memories aren't that good, but this was very helpful to me to see the video. I was like, oh yeah, I remember just before I forget, there is one you had told me and I think Frank had told me that the solidarity rally back in October of

00:19:19.900 - 00:19:36.270

'85. That it was like basically you and Jose who spoken in the Freedom Song Network, but there's a woman up there speaking in the movie and some guy tall lanky guy with glasses translating for her. Uh, I just remember she said this is a lie and

00:19:36.270 - 00:19:47.270

everybody cheers. Who is she? I don't remember. I didn't look at that part, but I can look at it. I've got it up. Yeah, you got it you got it just give me a ring when you when you get a look and tell me who she

00:19:47.270 - 00:20:04.489

is because I was under the impression that um. That was what caused a lot of the flak is that it was just strictly a TDU rally and that other people were not, you know, um, some of the was the only person from the and and and

00:20:04.489 - 00:20:25.229

some of the communist Party people had. Um, Some of the Communist Party people were critical of me because I talked about King and whatever and they thought that wasn't. Richard King or something in my little brief remarks and and because I don't know they were like

00:20:25.229 - 00:20:40.459

into like no no division and they didn't wins well they didn't want I mean I just think it was just a basic principle that I mean the joke, the joke I used to always say was fresh winds are blowing in the teams, which is like an

00:20:40.459 - 00:21:02.300

actual quote from like the people's world or something and as a. As a person who was in the trenches with that, that didn't because you know I did talk to Jim and I talked to Karen um and Um, Because it strikes me that Some of the

00:21:02.300 - 00:21:14.660

stands at the Watsonville, Karen just sort of rattled off the names of all the people who were in the party who worked on the Watsonville Strikeitport Committee, and there are quite a few, I mean, probably almost as many people as the league sent to Watsonville, you

00:21:14.660 - 00:21:33.569

know, toward the end. Um, You know, at the beginning, I think there were maybe only 3 or 4, but you know, as the strike went on it became more and more of a priority. But um Uh What struck me was that A lot of the stuff

00:21:33.569 - 00:21:51.449

that came out of the Watson Bell strike support Committee, I brought a couple of leaflets along. They reflected John's politics and Cruz's politics and maybe Frank's politics, but they certainly I didn't recognize it as the CP's politics and I asked Jim about that and he said

00:21:51.449 - 00:22:06.020

we weren't there to tell people what to do. That's that's one of the things I wanted to tell you is that Jim had a very, very That was the that was really I think the position of the Watsonville and I think the Santa Cruz committees. It's

00:22:06.020 - 00:22:23.650

like we're here as support. It's like we're going to give the the money and the eggs and whatever the damn stuff we've got and we're gonna give it to them and it's their strike. So, so in terms of, you know, I mean Blake. And sort of

00:22:23.650 - 00:22:43.589

had it wrong. I mean in terms of who was doing well he couldn't tell you one thing I know they were out there agitating their heads off, you know, so much like a guy like Blake and they couldn't. I mean they actually had my picture. They

00:22:43.589 - 00:22:54.839

didn't have the right person. I know that I was gonna use that story you told me about taking you out for a ride. Yeah, but I mean even before the strike started, they, they had a picture of me but it wasn't of me, so I mean

00:22:54.839 - 00:23:09.680

their intelligence wasn't as bad as they felt like, but anyways, but that, that was one thing I was going to tell you so it's sort of like. So Jim Brough wasn't in these meetings with these like with workers and what's next and what do we do?

00:23:09.790 - 00:23:31.459

Frank was sometimes, um, Cruz was. Sometimes, but she was more on the into the support side of things than. Than you know Frank was. I, I interviewed her uh last week. Where is she now? Well, she's in Mexico, but she's up on a visit and you

00:23:31.459 - 00:23:51.209

know I, I managed Karen helped me track her down and um. You know, uh It was a nice conversation, but she remembers very little. I just think that her life has just moved on since then. You know, she was in Maine for 6 or 7 years,

00:23:51.270 - 00:24:10.520

I think farming or something, and now she's in Mexico and you know, she remembers very little of the specifics of the strike. I don't even think she's thought about it very much, um. But What struck me, uh, you know, just the leaflets that Frank has in

00:24:10.520 - 00:24:29.199

his archives at San Francisco State is how Out there she was in terms of um. Denouncing not only the. But in the bank and the company, but the strikers committee, you know, I mean, she put out a leaflet at the very end there which says, you

00:24:29.199 - 00:24:59.979

know, oh God, um. My Spanish isn't very good, so I. I think I know what she's saying here, but uh. Yeah and tricks. You, you want to strike. The officials Wells Fargo are more consultant, right, right, the officials did something right but just putting them all

00:24:59.979 - 00:25:16.819

these are all equal enemy. I mean, all of your enemies and sort of I mean that's kind of the way John saw it too, you know, I think he portrayed it that way in the film. This is now the officials and the the strike committee with

00:25:16.819 - 00:25:41.739

their their lies and their tricks want you to lose what you've gained in 19 months of suffering on the line. And in the Victoria against against Wells Fargo, Norcal and the Teamsters. Sergio is giving you a concession. Nor co with a pretext. That it's a new

00:25:41.739 - 00:26:08.869

company. OK, so this is a vote no on contracting. OK. This concession is as if you guys had accepted the. Offer of console for $5.05 an hour with benefits. And in that case, what are you, what have you won? So that 505 actually, I think that's

00:26:08.869 - 00:26:21.979

something she picked up from you because you're quoted in the. Register and say you run the numbers on what they're gonna lose and the value of the health benefits if they go back, they might as well be settling for 505 with the full benefits. It's the

00:26:21.979 - 00:26:45.609

same thing. So she picked up on that. I think what you were saying with the concession I don't even remember that with the concession of 40 cents in the 12 began. Um, they began the price war between the canneries. Now the officials together with the strike

00:26:45.609 - 00:27:16.089

committee are giving you concessions. Again With the with the new boss and guarantee the continuation of the war between the canneries, this result. is that they will Well this will result in further, further reductions for other for other workers actually said this, I'll be at a

00:27:16.089 - 00:27:46.239

competitive disadvantage I'm giving all my health benefits. So the victory victory is the strikers. Now we have to defend the victory. You guys and your children suffered much for the for her for the victory. Don't let the officials. Sell out Your victory for less. If the

00:27:46.239 - 00:28:30.229

new boss wants. To negotiate. negocias he wants a new business with profits. He has to pay you decently, the workers. Richard Shaw. So conso was, was, was prepared but was destroyed. This boss is not prepared. So in other words, he was, you know, he had his

00:28:30.229 - 00:28:53.219

armaments, his fortresses built up, and we want, we beat him. This guy, this guy isn't even prepared. Nor cal no pue garello sad. He can't, he can't make the product without you, and he knows it. You have tina lafuera pode exe here mejores beneficios you guys

00:28:53.219 - 00:29:20.930

have the power. And the force to get better benefits. Ask for a week to vote. Uh, but I better to wait for a week to vote and no regret it. Then you know, um, if you could have done something, your, your, your friend and supporter supporter.

00:29:22.369 - 00:29:34.790

Actually I don't think that's so bad, but no, I, I, you know, I think the main beef I would have with it is the first paragraph, but you know the analysis seems pretty much what everybody eventually came to the sad conclusion. I mean everybody was everybody

00:29:34.790 - 00:29:47.390

was converging on that. I actually, you know, I talked to Cherie about it and she said that whole discussion that took place in the parking lot and you know, then later on inside the hall the vote was taken it's really, you know, she said it was

00:29:47.390 - 00:30:08.750

a model of democracy. Um, and it wasn't really a foregone conclusion at all at the beginning of the discussion what the right path was. People just had to weigh the risks against, you know, what was at stake and so on. Um, So You know, I haven't

00:30:08.750 - 00:30:24.800

asked Gloria because I haven't spoken to her recently, you know. Um, the sense I got, you know, because she made some statement when she came out of the negotiations and she just said we've been through, we've been through hell. You know, I hope to Christ this

00:30:24.800 - 00:30:43.280

is her words to that effect, you know. Um I think it was very difficult at that point. Um, For a lot of people think Jesus, it's not over yet. We've got a new owner. I mean, especially given that for really several months. It looked like the

00:30:43.280 - 00:30:59.290

best thing they could hope for was having an unemployment office set up in the union hall, you know, uh, so that all the people who worked for Cono before he went out of business would be placed in other jobs. Um, I think people's expectations really, correct

00:30:59.290 - 00:31:17.510

me if I'm wrong on this, it ratcheted down quite a bit. Once it became clear the consul wasn't going to make it, but it wasn't clear what was going to happen once he shut down. I, I think, and. They were told this is it, and I

00:31:17.510 - 00:31:32.000

don't know how much that they knew. I mean, if I was Chuck Mac and John Blake, I wouldn't have played up. But are you sure you know, in the union caucus when they have this deal, I wouldn't be playing up anything that could queer the deal,

00:31:33.849 - 00:31:53.089

right? And so I'm not sure, you know, and I just remember like yesterday, I mean that's one thing I remember because it was a very dramatic moment when the committee came back and Chivelo was speaking. And I told you before the story thinking this is too

00:31:53.089 - 00:32:11.579

easy. And so, and I, and I said how could they hide this, how could they make this a victory to the world who was in Watsonville with cameras, national news and a victory for the Teamsters and still make it easier for the employer and I thought

00:32:11.579 - 00:32:27.209

that's what they would do and I. And I, I didn't know. I didn't have any inside information. It's all secret. It's like, what's, what's this they couldn't do it with pension because the whole world understood pension still they actually wound up modifying the pension plan to

00:32:27.209 - 00:32:41.579

pay for the health benefits, didn't they? I mean it kind of a. The sort of thing you do routinely nowadays, but that was sort of a routine deal. I mean that, but that was OK, but that was OK. But you know, because it wasn't just a

00:32:41.579 - 00:32:56.790

break-in rate for the thing, it was like it takes an extra 6 months before you're eligible to retire, you know, for the sake of having health benefits you're working, like after after you haven't had them. So anyways, so I think there was that and then and

00:32:56.790 - 00:33:12.390

then you can't say it's sort of like, OK, so you know. I'm just, I'm trying to go where I think you're going, which is to put the best face on it from Gloria and them, which is could be wrong, OK, but, but then no, I'm just

00:33:12.390 - 00:33:29.380

sort of saying I'm trying to give it the most charitable viewpoint. Um, because I wasn't trying to convince Chivelo in that in that question and answer, I was trying to make sure that everyone understood what they were, what they were gonna get and that there was

00:33:29.380 - 00:33:54.459

a little, there was some fine print here that had huge implications. And so So I really wasn't trying to convince Javell or Gloria to do because I think that they worked much closer with Blake. Right, and the Teamsters, then certainly than the TDU people have, but

00:33:54.459 - 00:34:08.899

I could sort of see, OK, so OK, here you are and you think you've done it and you've won, and then here comes fucking or TU or whatever and you're gonna and and nothing's good enough and you're gonna poke holes and so I mean there was

00:34:08.899 - 00:34:28.010

significant distrust there. So I could sort of see that distrust sort of saying, you know, are they basically trying to, you know, I mean, even Ken Paf at a TDU was like. Are you sure you're what what you're doing here because you may, you may make

00:34:28.010 - 00:34:46.589

this never, you know, this has a downside of like, OK, so the strike never ends. So it was a risky move, but I didn't feel like it was my move to make. I think that there was by that point it was unquestionably my role just to

00:34:46.589 - 00:35:09.739

point out the fine print. Did you, I mean, getting back to your role at Crossetti. Um, You were also very visible in agitating against that contract and the the register Paonian and the Santa Cruz Sentinel both made a huge deal out of Cruz and Frank. It

00:35:09.739 - 00:35:26.030

made it sound like the opposition, a lot of the opposition was coming from them. Um, especially after the vote took place. Um, obviously they would not have gotten Frank's absolutely right. There's no way in hell the two of them could have went plus you could have

00:35:26.030 - 00:35:42.840

swung 300 votes to go against that contract if people weren't ticked off about it to begin with. But It did seem to me, and here again I'm running this by you because this is what I'm writing at this point and I want to make sure, you

00:35:42.840 - 00:36:03.169

know, I'm. Not off the wall with it. It seems like those two in particular allow themselves to be put in a situation where like the public face of the opposition in that plant. That they spoke routinely to the press. Um, Frank said the only way we're

00:36:03.169 - 00:36:20.550

going to win at Watsonville canning is if the other plants go out. Um, he was quoted a couple times as saying that when Crosetti settled, actually Cruz was quoted in the registered by Harmony, and she didn't remember saying it. But they quoted her as saying, well,

00:36:21.159 - 00:36:36.500

the vote wasn't expected, unexpected, you know, she's talking about the final decision to go along with and ratify, she says, but you know what, they're going to decertify Watson Volcanic when they do, we'll take the struggle that began. And she spoke as though it were almost

00:36:36.500 - 00:36:55.639

a foregone conclusion. I don't know if she meant it that way or whether the reporter got it right. But it struck me as She was really out there, you know, uh, in terms of, you know, being being the voice of the people in the plant who

00:36:55.639 - 00:37:12.850

didn't want her here. Well, and and when when you say decertified, was your impression that she was talking about the, the whatever the the endless I don't think she was aware. This is another thing I want to ask you about because uh. Beesson came up with

00:37:12.850 - 00:37:31.389

the idea of a recertification vote, I think just about the same time that the Crossetti contract was being rejected. And it was written about in the local 912 bulletin that little sheet that Arnold Heiberger put out, I think on around July 17th mentioned that the teams

00:37:31.389 - 00:37:44.169

had done it so but I, but it would make sense, you know, that. People who weren't paying real close attention to what the Teamsters were doing would not be aware of it. Or if they were their first, you know, or I mean it's a little bit,

00:37:44.419 - 00:38:00.639

it's a little complicated. I don't think, I mean, I don't think Cruz was a detailed person or necessarily had to feel like she had to have a real handle on things. So yeah, so I think it was in the early days of all that and. Um,

00:38:03.620 - 00:38:21.419

So I think there are probably a lot of people, I mean in the in the past, of course, the victorious whatever incredible network extending to Texas and central Mexico got these people back here, but how would anybody know in July they wouldn't know how the boat

00:38:21.419 - 00:38:36.070

would go, but I think what they would. They might be aware of the fact that Teamsters were petitioning for a vote, but I don't know how that was right, but I'm thinking, but I'm thinking that Cruz is probably saying no, you know, we, we lost this

00:38:36.070 - 00:38:53.870

one and we might lose the next one, but we won't stop fighting. That's, that's my guess. I wish I could get that from her, you know, she just doesn't remember, yeah, yeah, you know, I mean I. I dislike her lack of understanding of the details. I

00:38:53.870 - 00:39:09.219

don't trust and B. It was early and so how I mean, I don't know. I mean it. You know, and, and, and then I was basically saying, right? I mean, I had been basically saying, and I don't know what I said to Cruz or whatever because

00:39:09.219 - 00:39:34.639

I wasn't seeking out Cruz very often ever really frankly or sometimes frank because we had this pre-existing relationship and um. But mostly I wasn't seeking her, her any guidance out from her or from most people, but what I But you know, I thought the thing was

00:39:34.639 - 00:39:54.699

lost. Unless we did an unconditional return to work. Because I didn't know that Beason had figured this thing out about the no certification, and I was relieved, right? And so he had Esperanza and Enrique Torres going to this meeting and. San Pablo de Calores, that's the

00:39:54.699 - 00:40:10.239

place. That's the, that was the name of the place where we had some of those big meetings. That was the story. Now they said it's either on Riverside Drive or in San Juan Road. I'm not sure. I think it might be San Juan Road as you

00:40:10.239 - 00:40:31.459

what's it, is it a church? Yes, it's called San Pablo. It just popped into my head. I can look at San Pablo de Calores. Nicolores, C O L O R E S. Yeah, like a song. Yeah So I remember, I mean, and I have told you

00:40:31.459 - 00:40:47.679

that too, but I'll make it real quick. So that was like so we had a meeting and I've been reading about like I had been reading about stuff about why. Some cement workers or whatever. I remember I had like some photocopy of from book or something

00:40:47.929 - 00:41:08.590

or maybe a magazine or whatever and it was about these cement workers who basically. We're trying to be pushed out on a strike in a cement plant and they didn't go. And the reasons they didn't go and they formed a choir. And when certain customers, influential

00:41:08.590 - 00:41:25.820

customers would come, the choir would enact and I was really, really creative and really smart and that when I was reading that I realized, oh. This was their play. This was they wanted us out on strike, so because worst case scenario would be 12 months and

00:41:25.820 - 00:41:40.219

then the union would be out and Li and Mendelson sort of, you know, whatever you call it, um, this is the kind of stuff that Jerry Tucker was doing in the Midwest storyboarded yeah so they'd storyboarded all this stuff to these guys before they went out

00:41:40.219 - 00:41:54.310

and to their suppliers and to the growers and they're saying it's an investment and this is the worst case scenario 12 months and then we're union free. So anyways, and I said, OK, so the only thing, so I'd already admitted defeat in a certain way because

00:41:54.610 - 00:42:13.120

I was like the only way to save the union, and you do need to save the union. I to unconditionally surrender and you know most of the workers so it was Esperanza and Enrique and a few other workers at their house across from the plant and

00:42:13.459 - 00:42:28.929

I remember just being moved to tears literally because I thought this was about as much as anybody could you could ask somebody to do because they were gonna be the ones who are gonna raise it. At the meeting, so they were actually prepared to, I'll ask

00:42:28.929 - 00:42:44.379

her about that when I see her on Saturday if she remembers it. Was this was a meeting at her house Esperanza tours. Oh, OK. So yeah, so that, and they went to San Pablo de Calores and they brought it up and you know, most of the

00:42:44.379 - 00:43:04.709

workers, you know, not just Gloria, but like the Contreras sisters, Anita and Esperanza and whatever, I mean they were like spitting in their face because. So Esperanza and Enrique were the ones who proposed this then. Do you recall roughly when that meeting took place? Before the,

00:43:07.330 - 00:43:24.889

uh, before, before the thing, yeah, before was Crosetti still out? You don't know. We're talking about sometime around June July then, probably, yeah, I guess. Yeah, I mean it was imminent that at some point you know this is you're the first person who's mentioned this to

00:43:24.889 - 00:43:45.120

me. Um, And it was just like you. And and some of the workers. And, and I was, I was like listening to what they were saying afterwards and I just sort of said I'm sorry. I, I, I wish I had another thing, but I don't think

00:43:45.120 - 00:44:00.760

that there is. I think the only way is to surrender and to go back unconditionally, and that's the only and then you get to vote in the damn election and that that's a big pill to swallow for people. It's been, you know, my words picketing and

00:44:00.760 - 00:44:19.280

praying for the last 10 months and Um And they accepted it and they're going around and saying, no, I, I think that's what I think we have to talk about that and I think we, I think that's, I think that makes sense and, and it was

00:44:19.280 - 00:44:34.239

sort of like. To me, the thing that was so moving about it was because I thought, oh, this could be a group of workers in Chile and the penalty or you know, Guatemala at that point in the 80s and the and, and they could be talking

00:44:34.239 - 00:44:50.929

about something that could result in their death and even though know he was going to be killed for what they said, there's only a certain level of. At some point, whatever the scariest thing that could happen. It's as scary as it's going to get, you know,

00:44:51.010 - 00:45:06.919

and just, OK, whether you're going to be tortured or whether you're going to be killed, it's equally scary and are being banished and shunned and have your face bitten and that these people were so willing to face that and I I just felt like I could

00:45:06.919 - 00:45:26.010

be anywhere in the world almost at any point in history and the the courage, the courage that people have was just amazing. Well, if it's OK with you, I'll, I'll mention this to Esperanza and see if she remembers it when I talked to her. Um, You

00:45:26.010 - 00:45:44.429

know, I, I am. The other thing I guess because we're talking about the when I interviewed Cruz, you know, because you, you said that you saw the Watsonville support committee is basically just everybody was there do support. I mean, uh, the thing Jim, I'm thinking Jim.

00:45:44.790 - 00:46:05.919

And so I'm not sure. I wasn't following who was that you weren't that deeply involved in the I wasn't deeply involved in anything except these things that I remember, and I'm juggling a lot of different things, so. Um, so I don't remember like specific meetings, you

00:46:05.919 - 00:46:21.699

know, I remember specific meetings that we had, but like on the group back to the Corsetti thing, I don't remember sitting down with a group of people. Um, would you, would you have been a party to it if that kind of thing had gone on? Sure,

00:46:21.860 - 00:46:35.310

yeah, I mean I did. I mean, I actually, I asked Cruz, I said, you know, when you had the meetings of the Watsonville Sport Committee, I mean, did you guys talk about strike strategy, and she just sort of smiled and said, You can't have a meeting

00:46:35.310 - 00:46:56.100

with Frank in the room and not talk about strategy, you know, he's always gonna be coming up with we should, the strike should do this, they should do that, you know, um, and. You know, I think Frank's politics. Um, He's very much of a syndicalist, you

00:46:56.100 - 00:47:11.260

know, I think I hate to put labels on people. Well, you have to remind me what a syndicalist is or well, maybe not. It's a term that's not used much nowadays. I heard it was really, I mean the the IWW is syndicalist basically it's like revolution

00:47:11.260 - 00:47:32.389

happens at the workplace and no place else. Political activity is a distraction. Um, because all sorts of other class forces get involved and the struggle and other agendas. It's very kind of an anti. Workers have to rely on and the whole city council, you know, it

00:47:32.389 - 00:47:46.590

was kind of bullshit, you know, and you know there was a huge movement in Europe, you know, at the beginning of the 20th century in France and in England, you know, where there was a big upsurge of unionism. Cruz talk about how she felt about the

00:47:46.590 - 00:48:01.500

league and all that. She didn't specifically say the league, but I assumed that's who she was referring to. She spoke disparagingly, you know, the people who, there were people who were trying to, you know. I forget the exact word she used. I kind of didn't want

00:48:01.500 - 00:48:21.110

to go there because Um, I think people talk more lucidly when they don't get their heads caught in that, you know, I was just thinking, I was just thinking it was hilarious like thinking about Blake's. The your latest discovery of the Blake message and it's sort

00:48:21.110 - 00:48:39.669

of like, OK, so the problem with us. People who aren't going along or organizers or naysayers or whatever with their plans were outsiders, right? And then I think that's part of the critique from those of us who've been living there for the league and outsiders and

00:48:39.669 - 00:48:58.179

I think that's to some extent, not Manuel so much because he'd been working in the canneries for years and you know, uh, he had, you know, he knew Jose Lopez probably well before you did. and had a fairly decent relationship with them until the strike, and

00:48:58.179 - 00:49:13.189

then they had a falling out. You know, and I think And Frank acknowledges this too is against the current article, you know, that people in the league were not Johnny come lately to all this. They've been working in the cannery workers movement statewide for years, you

00:49:13.189 - 00:49:25.870

know, I mean Mike Johnson had helped build up that whole network. There were people in Sacramento and so forth, and you know, I know the way we talked about this stuff internally is it was like a an extension of it was the latest battle battleground of

00:49:25.870 - 00:49:39.280

the can work that we've been doing since the, you know, mid 70s. Um, but I'm just saying some of it but you know, you don't boils down to turf who was Oscar, you know, I mean, he, he made a commitment to stay in town and you

00:49:39.280 - 00:49:52.530

know, he became pretty deeply involved in the life of the town. Uh, maybe more, a little too much for some people's taste, but you know, um, at the time he went down there, he was just a guy from the Mission District, you know, who had been

00:49:52.530 - 00:50:09.600

driving a UPS truck just like you, and, um, he went because he asked to go. He was kind of fascinated. He heard uh Guerina and um. Uh, Rayna Diaz and Manuel talk and I remember a meeting at the uh local 2 Hall in San Francisco. I

00:50:09.600 - 00:50:21.959

think I was there too. And you know there were a bunch of strikers that came up Manuweel and uh they made a big impression on him and he says, well, I want to go down there and help out and he went I mean Oscar, you know,

00:50:22.080 - 00:50:40.479

I mean he's not my favorite person, but he's not whatever, but it is like. He's a curious guy. He's curious. He's, yeah, yeah, no, I mean just, yeah, temperamentally he's he's a curious person, so that totally makes sense. It's like I wanna do that, you know,

00:50:41.010 - 00:50:57.229

and he's young and temperamentally, I think, you know, um. Wow, there's some action going on here, you know, I don't know if you know his history from, well, his brother was one of Lassie. Do you know about that that case? That was one of the big

00:50:57.570 - 00:51:16.330

celebrated political trials of the I guess it happened in the early '69 thereabouts. A bunch of Mission District kids who got into a mix up with a cop and the cop got killed. And Oscar's brother was one of them, and uh the Panthers took an interest

00:51:16.330 - 00:51:37.209

in the case. They basically loaned Charlie Gary, their lawyer, to the defense effort. And um he got them off um and He got him off basically by having hiring Hal Lipset, you know, the private eye, running around getting horror stories about this cop just beating people

00:51:37.209 - 00:51:52.229

up at the drop of a hat, and they all paraded to the witness stand and by the time. The trial was over, you know, it's like there was no way in hell the jury was going to convict, um. So if you A week after the trial,

00:51:52.260 - 00:52:11.879

a bunch of San Francisco cops tracked down Oscar's brother and just put him in the hospital with a broken jaw. That was, you know, that was what radicalized him, you know, uh, they had a whole community organization. Oscar's older brother, I think, I think, I think,

00:52:12.000 - 00:52:25.510

I think Jose was older, yeah, I'm not sure, but um. I remember the first time in that Oscar and, oh, that's Jose Agrios' brother. Wow, you know, there was a whole organization in the mission, you know, they had a storefront, they had a newspaper, they had

00:52:25.510 - 00:52:43.080

a free breakfast program. They had a health clinic, um. That really kind of followed the Panther model and that was kind of how Oscar got his political education, you know it's sort of like. I mean there were, we were just, I don't know, this is being

00:52:43.080 - 00:52:59.310

reflective again, but I, I was just thinking about talking to you and I was just thinking, but I don't know, it's like. It's a whole another book that you or somebody could write sort of like, where are they now? So what I mean in terms of

00:52:59.709 - 00:53:15.139

what, what did people learn as a result of this or what did they? Or what did they inspire them to do or whatever, but I think a lot of my point of view in terms of union trainings I do or whatever activist trainings is like have

00:53:15.139 - 00:53:31.550

people not make the same mistakes that I made and just increase shorten the learning curve, but you know it's sort of like, OK, so here we are and we're we're up to fucking, you know, we're like up to. Whatever up to here trying to run some

00:53:31.550 - 00:53:44.100

strike and then somebody comes and wants to talk on a diet and it's OK with them if this is a 3 hour program, what the hell you know and I'm just thinking, you know, we're gonna have a ride or whatever, all that kind of stuff and

00:53:44.100 - 00:54:00.949

it's like it never occurred to me like it would now it's like. Let's get to know these people, like, where are you coming from? like. Yeah, but we never really did that, we just fought with each other without ever really knowing that, but I'm just sort

00:54:00.949 - 00:54:19.449

of thinking there's all kinds of parallels. I mean, Frank was in the Oakland, whatever it was, the Oakland and and he's got this great hilarious article about, you know, the Panthers who the Panthers meeting. I don't know if it was one of the lawyers. It was

00:54:19.449 - 00:54:33.360

either, I know that, yeah, I know the article, it was in the realist. I think Paul Krasner's rag. He just describes his first meeting with Charlie Gary and Gary's as well. First thing I want to know is what are your politics? And Ste pops out his

00:54:33.360 - 00:54:48.810

chest and says, I communist and Gary says, big fucking deal. Well, the one I the one I remember the best was that was he said, so the Panthers were like, whatever, high fiving or low fiving or whatever is the right thing to do there and just

00:54:48.810 - 00:55:03.840

like whatever this white guy in a three piece suit. He says he's he's willing to be their lawyer and they're like, oh, and so they're just nervous about it and they're just covering it up and bravado kind of way with humor and they're saying, Are you

00:55:03.840 - 00:55:17.409

as good as Perry Mason? he said I'm better than Perry Mason because all of his clients are we both get our guys off but all of his people are innocent. Well, I mean he was a good and that was a very good comeback. That was very

00:55:17.409 - 00:55:48.120

good. And that was a character, but yeah, she's a good writer. So, um, OK, so I think that's the one who was like the MC, but she was never identified. um Carmen's on there. She's got shorter hair, it's curly. And she speaks on there she's, I

00:55:48.120 - 00:56:05.350

think she's once on there not speaking on the right side of the, on the right side of the, uh, thing, and then on the other time she actually does speak but she's not credited. And then the ones who are credited are Estela Torres, who I don't

00:56:05.350 - 00:56:23.280

believe is on this flyer. But she was, they were just having people come up right and they all luckily for us, oh wait, here it is here. What's your name again? Estella Torres. Estella. I mean, I'm supposing this could be Estella. I was thinking, I think

00:56:23.280 - 00:56:40.270

you were thinking it was Esther. But it could be, it's hard to tell here. I thought it was. So she, she actually speaks, well, someone who's named on the screen as Estella Torres. Oh no, she gets up and says my name is Estella Torres, and I've

00:56:40.270 - 00:56:58.020

worked here for 8 years. And then the next person who got up and was identified on the screen was Maria Hernandez. That's part of why I thought that Mike that. Uh, John Silver might have more. Oh no, they weren't, OK, so they weren't identified by name

00:56:58.020 - 00:57:19.090

on the thing. They identified themselves in the piece of thing that he did, and the third person was Esperanza Seca. SECA SCCA, yeah. And they all identified themselves, uh, and then, you know, the Contreras were in that meeting, right, and they, they both, well, there was

00:57:19.090 - 00:57:45.219

a, there's there's. So they're juggling at this point. There's Jesse Jackson, there's the Crosetti, there's the, I think what I think is one of them, I don't know if it was Esperanza or it wasn't and she said, you know, God is just, you know, you know,

00:57:45.659 - 00:58:08.110

don't, don't think I'm at this meeting, you know, so they did have them. When Frank was in that meeting, well, the first meeting that they showed Corsetti workers and that the voiceover talks about Corsetti workers are getting together was at the union hall. So it's interesting.

00:58:08.189 - 00:58:26.239

I'm wondering. I'm wondering when the meetings sort of the the open meetings where the supporters came and stuff like that started happening and if that was in the wake. Of the Shaws because it was already in full force by the time we discovered that Wells Fargo

00:58:26.239 - 00:58:44.850

had extended 3 or 4 months went by. I mean, well, I guess the Crossetti negotiations sort of started in um. I think the union was kind of taking it one at a time after they had a settlement in naturewi, then they took up Crosetti. Um, So

00:58:44.850 - 00:59:02.699

it would have been. Probably like early June. OK, um, so I, OK, OK, so I think what happened, so in the, in the order of the film, that's the only thing about not there if you just go through it, but the order of the film, they're

00:59:02.699 - 00:59:22.620

finishing the story about the Santa Cruz trial of John and Joe and all that, the Watsonville 19 or whatever. And then we talked about the Watsonville 19? Uh, I've got about a paragraph on it. Well, the thing was I only got, I don't know, I got

00:59:22.620 - 00:59:37.530

thrown in jail for a couple of hours. That was and that was before the big brouhaha after the Shaw that was when you're on your way to the unemployment office, right? Yeah, OK. And then, but I guess maybe all of us, including me, was part of

00:59:37.530 - 00:59:54.709

that and so Dan Siegel. The lawyer was saying, OK, they're they've they've agreed to settle and so it was sort of like for the people who had their were maced in front of their children and whose arm was broken and their house, their door was broken

00:59:54.709 - 01:00:11.270

down by the cops because they lived across the street from the police department when all that was happening. He goes, OK, so they get $5000 and then. You know, so the they had a settlement. He, he basically worked out a settlement that like the total amount

01:00:11.270 - 01:00:31.120

and then with differential amounts given what the different pain and suffering and what it was. It sounds like a uh um. A civil suit, yeah, yeah, and so, and so anyways, and so. And so I don't know, like my, my pain and suffering was like 150

01:00:31.120 - 01:00:47.459

bucks or something and the people who maybe the worst people with their arm broken and all this done in front of their small children and their homes being doors busted down and all that that was like, you know, $5000 or $10,000 and then in a true

01:00:47.459 - 01:01:02.110

Watsonville Mexican way they said no, no, no, everybody gets the same. Nobody gets more than another, so I get $1500 for two hours in jail. Who were the other, I mean, you know, I've been reading the newspaper accounts of those trials. I mean, aside from the

01:01:02.110 - 01:01:27.429

fact that they were. I mean, I think the DA actually wound up asking the jury to acquit Silvermiss the charges. I mean, I'm guessing they were watching the jury watching the film, but yeah, yeah, no, I mean it's in the movie you can see them bus

01:01:27.429 - 01:01:43.790

being busted, but I have no sense of who. The strikers were or the workers that I would, I'll call him now that he's lost the election. Maybe he'll have time to talk to me, you know, he ran for mayor, I was in a meeting with some

01:01:43.790 - 01:01:58.429

people, the head of the local and who I've been doing training with and um and a couple of other people and then. And he says, oh you know who that is who just came and sat behind us this little place in Oakland, he would know who

01:01:58.429 - 01:02:21.530

he was suing on behalf of. What was the upshot of that lawsuit that civil suit? That was the $1500 1500 times 19 whatever that is. When did that happen? I don't know. Meeting was at the, the, the, the meeting with the plaintiffs or whatever. That's what

01:02:21.530 - 01:02:44.169

they call them the class. Was at Salud Pala gente on Beach Street in Alexander. Yeah and I'm just giving you the. If you could jog his memory, yeah. And that was the other thing I would say to jog is like you had these differential amounts and

01:02:44.169 - 01:02:58.850

they said no, everybody is the same mentioned that to me I think the first time I interviewed him and at that point I wasn't. You know, um, Here again, I'll give you a little sneak preview. I mean the way I handled the Watsonville 19 is that

01:02:58.850 - 01:03:20.270

it was. Um, The kind of shit that the striker's going through with the city like that whole fight over whether you have to have to have liability insurance to have a rally in Callahan Park, that kind of thing. That it was um. It was almost like

01:03:20.270 - 01:03:34.949

diverting their energy from the strike to have to deal with the local authorities like that. Um, and that. The fact that all the charges wound up being thrown out against the 19 defendants, I didn't even mention the civil suit because I wasn't really aware of it.

01:03:36.260 - 01:03:48.350

But it was, you know, it was good political theater, but the real battle was taking place in plant by plant where the concessions were being voted on and the union was trying to sort of work out its strategy and the workers are trying to assert their

01:03:48.350 - 01:04:06.010

own. That that's the way I handle it, so I kind of deemphasized that legal stuff. Um, maybe I shouldn't have, um, or maybe I shouldn't. I mean, I don't know, it seems to me, I mean, I don't know. I mean, it seems to me that there's

01:04:06.010 - 01:04:26.719

a thread there in terms of Juanpara. Right, and you know the ones. So, so that was like 80 shit, what was that? 82 or 83 or something like that? OK, 84 and then the whole the play and you've seen the play, right? The video of the

01:04:26.719 - 01:04:45.750

play that John Silver made and then there's the. So anyways, and it's like that's, and that's one of the things that I learned experience. It's like, oh, guess who brought Mendelssohnestive that was us. And so, so there's a connecting and then they delay and delay and

01:04:45.750 - 01:05:03.500

delay and then it gets heard at the worst possible time for them and it just becomes. It goes from across the lab to being this little tiny tiniest of the asterisks because of everything that develops. So anyway, I don't know. So what you're saying is that

01:05:03.500 - 01:05:24.129

I'm just saying in the different circumstances that legal stuff would have been much more. Yeah, and it's sort of like, yeah, it seems to me like, I mean my argument for including it isn't to make a big deal of it. But it's sort of like. It

01:05:24.129 - 01:05:38.389

was there was so much more to Watsonville and there was so much more background and there were so many different strands. I mean, to me, I thought that the whole, you know, and certainly Frank did even more than I did that the whole Cruz district elections,

01:05:38.830 - 01:05:59.679

you know, civil rights lawsuit, which it turns out was like this incredibly ground breaking decision that had you know, that was a precedent setting case that's changed everything, but at the time. To me that seemed like a distraction and to Frank it seemed probably like a

01:05:59.679 - 01:06:17.399

stupid distraction because the syndicalism and all that kind of stuff, but I'm just sort of saying, but it's like it's. There's a strike, but there's all these other things, and it's just one, I just, it's one big mashup as the kids say nowadays. Well, after I

01:06:17.399 - 01:06:34.139

talked to her for about an hour, uh, Cherie. So Why do you think this stuff is important enough to write a book about it? And I thought, well, hell, I mean, you were down there and you went to work in Salinas for local 890 after it

01:06:34.139 - 01:06:51.909

was over. I mean you were deeply involved in this stuff. Um, She said, I think, you know what was really important was that there was a, you know, kind of a Latino. Takeover of the local political scene after the strike was over. It was directly related

01:06:51.909 - 01:07:13.250

to the strike. And I want to ask you about this too because you stayed in Watsonville, you know, for a long time afterwards. Um, Frank is not particularly impressed with, you know, what Todd McFarron and Oscar did when they got on the city council. They kind

01:07:13.250 - 01:07:26.699

of blew it in terms of rent control, you know, I remember actually when Jesse Jackson came to town I was marching on the picket line along with Frank, and he was sort of saying, you know. This is all very well and good, but you know, colored

01:07:26.699 - 01:07:42.479

places, colored faces and high places is not what the struggle is about, that's kind of the gist of what he was saying. Um, and of course Jackson's whole reason for going there was I'm going to bring in the Latino electorate. His whole speech, that's the thrust

01:07:42.479 - 01:08:07.530

of his speech, um, get these hands that pick cabbage and broccoli and pick presidents, you know. That's yours, I think. You want to get it? I. Um, and to do this so it doesn't keep ringing. OK, you know, Frank was not terribly impressed with that, and

01:08:07.530 - 01:08:28.330

he was not terribly impressed with Oscar's record as mayor, although he I think he's, it's less about Oscar to him than it is about this is what happens anytime you get a. And excluded previously excluded minority getting in charge of city government. The capitalists just moved

01:08:28.330 - 01:08:45.450

their investments somewhere else, you know, it happened all over the country after the civil rights movement. You had a bunch of black mayors who suddenly found that they've taken power over an empty shell, and, and he's right, you know. Um, it's very difficult. I think for

01:08:45.450 - 01:09:03.338

a local government. Which is dependent on, you know. the willingness of business to invest in their community and if things aren't to their liking, they'll just move it somewhere else. And you know, I mean, it happened all through the Midwest in the late 70s and early

01:09:03.338 - 01:09:23.000

80s and eventually it happened to Watsonville maybe five years later that it happened. And simply getting a brown face or a black face in the position of authority in city government doesn't stop it. So I mean I'm inclined to think. It's a whole other subject apart

01:09:23.000 - 01:09:37.839

from the strike. But I'm going to have to put an epilogue on this book. I can't just stop it when they settle, you know, when the strike was settled and they signed with David Gi because The industry pretty much shut down in the ensuing 10 years.

01:09:38.700 - 01:09:58.870

Um, And You know, Why does it still matter what happened? What do we take away from it? So I kind of wanted to ask you if you were to give a kind of a thumbnail sketch of what happened in Watsonville after the strike, how you would

01:09:58.870 - 01:10:20.419

characterize that. I don't know. I mean, 11 way, I can't, I mean this is saying. This isn't exactly what I'm thinking, but what I'm thinking. After what you just said was like, I suppose you could look at this one could look at this and sort of

01:10:20.419 - 01:10:38.310

saying, OK, well this is all part of very interesting, but what we didn't realize at the time that this was, you know, we were in the. The um We're in the death throes of industry in the United States and so whether it was sort of like,

01:10:38.319 - 01:10:48.160

you know, there was a book I read called the, the, the, and a lot of people, progressive people and labor people, I think misunderstood.