00:00:00.050 - 00:00:20.389

I was the editor. And um actually, you know, the strike was going on. I was kind of trying to simultaneously cover the Hormel strike. I remember, I remember when the, when they came and visited when they came out they get a lot more media attention than

00:00:20.389 - 00:00:41.869

we did at the time there's nothing the media glom on to fight in the union, you know, plus Ray Rogers, you know, I think part of his whole strategy was to make as much publicity as he's funny. I called the Watsonville strike was settled. As I

00:00:41.869 - 00:00:53.470

was calling around different people who had sort of taken an interest in getting quotes from them. You know, Chavez made a very nice statement. He said, well, you know, more than, more than the money, they finally got a union that plan now after all those years

00:00:53.470 - 00:01:06.440

and they'll fight back and so forth and so on, so that sounded good. And I called up Jim Galle and he said, uh, How much were they making when they went out? And I said how much are they going back for? And I told him why

00:01:06.440 - 00:01:18.959

was it a victory? I said, Well, because after 18 months nobody was going to get that 705 anymore, you know, it's like the pattern was set at Richard Shaw and you know, just holding on to the union was like a victory in itself and he said

00:01:18.959 - 00:01:36.239

that's what Louie Anderson told us. And So you know, Jim, I think the watching Bell strikers feel like they have a special relationship with the guys. You know, I think they'd appreciate something from it. I mean, that was true, yeah, I mean, that was my line.

00:01:36.319 - 00:01:48.410

I think was it wasn't an economic victory. How do you stay on strike for 18 months, come back with a 20% cut, and call it a victory. I mean the long view, the whole thing was wasted because the shut down a few years, right, you know,

00:01:48.919 - 00:02:05.160

so but you know, to me what the big victory was was. Just the transformation of the people, I mean, you know, hundreds of people, I don't know, dozens, maybe the activists only or the strikers in general, but I mean how many people like Esperanza Torres or

00:02:05.160 - 00:02:25.600

dozens of other people like got their voice, right, learned to stand up, lost their fear and sort of became, you know, became activists or became politicized in that process. Are you in touch with her? Esperanza Torres, I mean, no, I mean, I haven't, I, I probably

00:02:25.600 - 00:02:49.710

haven't seen them for at least a year. Yeah, she's out now. Which is about a 3 hour drive so I'm just wondering, you know, because she doesn't. I, you know, I talked to her on the phone she was more than happy to talk, but it was

00:02:49.710 - 00:03:06.809

obviously. You know, I think if I was letting her talk, it would be fine, but if I have specific questions to ask, you know, it would be very difficult. I've talked to a decent, yeah, but you know I think she she's wonderfully articulate when she talks.

00:03:06.919 - 00:03:20.660

I think it's hard for her to understand really specific questions and the first time I talked to her daughter was there and this went beautifully uh on the phone. You know, she was struggling to understand what exactly I was referring to when I asked this or

00:03:20.660 - 00:03:42.580

that question. So you know I tell you what, sometime I can get down there and your daughter's around let's talk again you know I mean it's this is what I'm up against trying to undertake something like this Spanish. So you've been working on this for a

00:03:42.580 - 00:04:00.050

while. Well jeez, I started when I first retired from the post office, you know, just 5 years ago. I always thought somebody needed to write about it, you know, I think at this point. All that's available just like your movie and that article. You know, It's,

00:04:02.520 - 00:04:16.619

it's a good start, you know, I I disagree with aspects of it, but you know, aside from the interpretation, sort of, well, I guess he wrote that right after, right? It was right after, you know, it didn't have it was sort of sort of caught up

00:04:16.619 - 00:04:33.350

in the whole. And it took you what, a couple of years to a job, yeah. Well, you know what I want to do is, um. Uh, kind of back up, I'm trying to get a feel for like what the political scene was like in Watsonville before

00:04:33.350 - 00:04:47.630

the strike and how folks kind of got into the support committee, uh, who was involved, what got done, that kind of thing. Maybe I should ask you first of all, migrant media had been around for a while before the strike, I take it. How did it

00:04:47.630 - 00:05:20.480

get started? So, um, You know, I met up with Cruz Gomez and Mike Alcoa, so Cruz Gomez, you know, obviously who she is, and Mike Alkolay was. A pediatrician who I was doing some trying to do some farm work or health project right and um do

00:05:20.480 - 00:05:42.160

a video and so you got to talk to this guy Mike Elkole. So I went down and interviewed him, and he was this amazing guy. He was a co-founder of Salupalagente, the farmworker health clinic and um. Um, and so he, um. You know, he was like

00:05:42.160 - 00:06:01.709

working at Watsonville Community Hospital and got involved in in Watsonville and just saw the You know, tremendous unmet health, well, you know, needs of farm workers in general, particularly around health and started a free clinic in Watsonville and then with some other people then wrote a

00:06:01.709 - 00:06:18.049

grant and, you know, got a rural health grant and launched. You know, salute la gente, which is, you know, still here and it's basically like a farm worker health clinic. But anyway, he was into medicine, obviously, and he got all interested in videos, I want to

00:06:18.049 - 00:06:44.829

do this. He was always like, yeah, so, so anyway, a little while later. Migrant, this was so that's what I was telling you the story. So basically Cruz and Mike migrant and that was, you know, that was early, I forget, maybe 83. Approximately 83 and um

00:06:45.000 - 00:07:06.950

you know our goal was to do. You know, both media projects relating to supporting, you know, immigrant rights and farm worker rights and advocacy, um. As well as to, you know, be involved in community advocacy and organizing around that stuff. And so that's, I, I, I

00:07:06.950 - 00:07:25.500

don't know if that's where I first met Frank, but, um, Frank was involved in TDU then. And so when we started migrant Media then I met up with some other folks also local activists and they were, you know, Chicano activists and Mexican activists and white activists

00:07:25.899 - 00:07:49.929

or community people and we um. And I, so I was part of that group, but then also in that time like '83, started an immigration clinic. Um Called, uh, well, the English translations was just people's immigration Services, and we started a free clinic every twice a

00:07:49.929 - 00:08:16.160

month. To help people um with the legalization process but also to help organize really against the border patrol and the abuses of the INS in town and and so that was really the backbone that we had been involved in. Immigrant rights organizing and so I had

00:08:16.160 - 00:08:35.640

come to know some of the people who were teamsters through that immigration work and I have to say that um I mean you know you're an activist, so you know so often activism can be disconnected from the people in the community and especially, you know, if

00:08:35.640 - 00:08:54.390

you have, you know. Activists who have middle class backgrounds and are coming into a new community and they're starting to do this organizing. Well, I think one of the reasons that we had some success is that we weren't just organizing against the INS abuses, and this

00:08:54.390 - 00:09:10.669

is something I really learned from Cruz Gomez. If you want to organize. People provide services that they need and work with them around basic stuff, right? And you know, as activists, a lot of activists, you know, myself and others included, right, like shy away from that,

00:09:10.710 - 00:09:23.140

we don't want to do social services at the time we probably want to make a revolution, right? So you know you tend to see, you know, social services, that's reform, that's band aid. I mean it's not you're against it, but that's not what you want to

00:09:23.140 - 00:09:38.106

focus on doing. But Cruz as a local Chicana activist, she really understood early on that you have to work with the people and you have to build community and you have to build trust and you have to provide things so because we were providing. Like direct

00:09:38.106 - 00:09:54.866

immigration services like helping people get their green card or naturalize their family members. We also started organizing around INS abuses, so people would come in and we would help them with their immigration paperwork, but then we would also interview them and document INS abuses. So at

00:09:54.866 - 00:10:07.771

that time we started this combination of sort of providing services. People needed through an immigration clinic and you know we had some local progressive lawyers who did some trainings for us and it was like, you know, there were some lawyers and there was a bunch of

00:10:07.771 - 00:10:26.940

community people who sort of got trained in that. I mean, I basically became an immigration paralegal just on the side just because I learned it and did it for a number of years. So, um. So basically, I remember we went to, um, so that's how me

00:10:26.940 - 00:10:44.330

and some of my cohorts got to know what a number of the issues were and got to know a number of the people in town and I remember we went and did an immigrant rights workshop for TDU probably. A year before um the strike and then

00:10:44.330 - 00:11:00.369

you know I'm sure Frank told you all about the Wampara story. OK, so you don't need me to repeat that, but basically that was also a prelude that there was an organizing effort in the canneries that brought in both, you know, supporters and friends as well

00:11:00.369 - 00:11:18.059

as workers themselves. And so you know there was some connection with community people and farming cannery workers through some of this organizing around the INS and it's funny to say whoever thought I would ever be on a first name basis with the head of the CIA.

00:11:18.109 - 00:11:34.474

That's pretty funny. I was friends with Panetta. I mean, well, well, a little bit. I mean Patta was the middle of the road. Right, so he wasn't even as liberal as our local Democrats, right, because he was always a little more centrist, but, um, when we

00:11:34.474 - 00:11:53.369

were organizing against the INS abuses, we started documenting like taking testimonials from people about INS abuses and you know, documenting raids on schools, soup kitchens at churches, then running into the field, separating families, all that stuff, and then we um. You know, brought it to the

00:11:53.369 - 00:12:13.530

local government level and tried to put resolutions, right, yeah, so basically this, so that organizing effort that started with the local Watsonville City Council and Santa Cruz City Council and then we went to the board of supervisors and with their help sort of forced Panetta to

00:12:13.530 - 00:12:32.359

co-sponsor this public hearing on immigration abuses. And so we packed like 500 people into, I think it was Watsonville High School auditorium or maybe it was in Santa Cruz, yeah, it might have been in Santa I forget where it was, but, um, you know, so we,

00:12:32.429 - 00:12:50.270

Cruz Gomez and our whole cohort, we did a lot of, you know, documenting of people's stories and organizing to bring people out. So hundreds, it was like 500 people at this all day public hearing where our board of supervisors and local. Uh, and you know, like,

00:12:50.760 - 00:13:05.119

I think Sam Farr and others, you know, like, uh, the assembly people and Panetta shared it and Panetta had to sit there and listen to these hours of testimony of abuses and at the end, he's like, I don't think this is right and the INS really

00:13:05.119 - 00:13:19.859

shouldn't be raiding soup kitchens and And you know, the regional directors of the INS came and they gave them a lot of time to talk and do their presentation, but the power of both, you know, our testimony where we assembled all the facts, but you know

00:13:19.859 - 00:13:40.010

just person after person coming up and telling these stories of different kinds of INS abuses. So our, our basic position was that. You know there's a moral and political issue, but, but we tried to emphasize the legal aspect to be more effective. So our line was

00:13:40.010 - 00:14:02.320

look, the border patrol is an agency that's out of control and that systematically violates people's civil rights by the way they operate. OK, because that was sort of our legalistic approach that the law says that you cannot detain someone solely on the basis of their ethnic

00:14:02.320 - 00:14:22.390

appearance. And yet as we try to document and show. The INS systematically detains people on the basis of their ethnic appearance and you know and not and doesn't have like individualized suspicion that a person, you know, it's almost like. Didn't Aurora Trujillo have an incident like

00:14:22.390 - 00:14:35.289

that with one of her kids. By the way, I, I, she's somebody I'd love to talk to you I don't know how to reach her. She's another one I have, you know, I used to, like I say, it's been so many years, and, and I'm gonna

00:14:35.289 - 00:14:50.030

get you a video that was remembering the Cannery strike event in Watsonville about 5 or 6 years ago. I remember hearing and Community TV came out and did a little video of it, so I'll get you that. I mean I, I've heard about it, uh, I

00:14:50.030 - 00:15:11.400

knew it wasn't, you know, but yeah, I was just grinding my teeth that I was up in Portland when that happened. I heard about it after the fact would have flown down for it but anyway, so basically we took that approach of documenting, you know, an

00:15:11.400 - 00:15:25.344

agency out of control that was systematically violating people's rights. And then there was a little strange alliance is that we got the board of supervisors coming out of that meeting. We wrote these resolutions. I read them now and they even had a quite a bit of

00:15:25.344 - 00:15:39.534

rhetoric, more rhetoric than we would have in it now, but they were really strong, like saying like that the city was not welcoming the INS, that we didn't want our police cooperating, and we got the city councils and the board of supervisors to pass really strong

00:15:39.534 - 00:16:08.390

resolutions, uh, embracing immigrant rights and sort of, you know, saying that the INS was not welcome. And I think we were early on in that. There were a few others, but we were in that game. Well, so, so a lot of the, so when we came

00:16:08.390 - 00:16:24.570

out there was like one the most conservative member. Of the um board of supervisors was the Watsonville representative and you know, we just assumed we had the 3 votes. We had the majority, we were gonna get our resolution passed, but all of a sudden, um, we

00:16:24.570 - 00:16:39.969

were getting their vote. We got the 2 conservative votes and why? Because E Wayne Moore was his name and you know, he was probably a Republican, you know, kind of a business guy and basically talked to all his grower friends and they don't like the INS

00:16:39.969 - 00:16:57.539

either, right? Because right, they're just carting away their labor force. Um, so with a bit of strange bedfellows, there was a lot of support even from the business and ag community and you know we had a pretty radical line. I mean we were probably beaten up

00:16:57.539 - 00:17:18.855

on employers who were abusing farm workers also but in the narrow thing of the INS. So basically then Panetta created the first INS joint task force in the country probably and. There was like 5 or 6 of us activists on it and INS and local government

00:17:18.855 - 00:17:32.456

and the INS and we used to have quarterly meetings where we would go and basically bring all our testimony and just try to slam the INS and the border patrol. Lopez was on that wasn't he? Yes, Jose Lopez was on that committee. I mean, right, he

00:17:32.456 - 00:17:48.631

was a militant undocumented worker. He'd be in there ripping on the border patrol. I mean, it was an amazing thing and Panetta. Sort of, you know, trying to be moderate, but things were so obvious that he kept slamming the border patrol. And so just to sum

00:17:48.631 - 00:18:02.472

up that period, so the outcome of those hearings and the INS Joint Task Force is we kind of ran the INS out of town. They stopped doing the raids in the field. We got them to stop going into the jails for a number of years. Do

00:18:02.472 - 00:18:22.010

you think that Simpson Mazzoli helped or hurt that? Well, so remember that was happening all through that same time. So we were involved in organizing against Simpson Mazzoli, as were all the immigrant rights groups, and you know, and we said, you know, employer, hey, how are

00:18:22.010 - 00:18:41.069

you? Thanks. So, um. So we were organizing against that, you know, because we're saying, well, the amnesty wasn't really that good and millions of people would be left out, which ended up being true, but at the same time over a million people did get legalized through

00:18:41.069 - 00:18:59.040

that. So our immigration critic once it passed, we kind of changed and says, well, now we're just going to help as many people get legalized as we can. with the Affordable Care Act similar kind of a situation, right, right, exactly, yeah. So, um, so I think

00:18:59.040 - 00:19:14.119

what the Simpson Mazzoli process does is there was so much focus, there was so much community organizing around the country on it that that was just sort of a vehicle that we used to organize. And then once it passed that immigration clinic, we started, I mean

00:19:14.119 - 00:19:29.969

we were busy for the next number of years helping people, you know, use that system to get legalized and a lot of people did locally. Well, you know, I, I'm. I don't know whether I'm going to be able to run down Cruise or not. She's somebody

00:19:29.969 - 00:19:48.040

I've heard a great deal about from a great many people. I mean, I don't have her number. I can try to track down. She's like in Maine, farming and she came back a couple years ago. I was actually out of town. They did an event and

00:19:48.040 - 00:19:59.339

kind of a tribute to her like maybe 2 years ago that was. And um uh they they showed the movie I guess and uh yeah, Cruz would be good to yeah if you're gonna, if you're really writing a book on this, then Cruz is a very

00:19:59.339 - 00:20:24.099

important player. Well, you know, there's such a wide range of takes on this struggle. Uh, it's, you know, I, I think at the time it was like the blind men and the elephant. I found out a whole whole lot of stuff about what was going on

00:20:24.099 - 00:20:43.390

inside the teamsters over the strike. Um, Part of it is that everybody wants to make sure they're remembered what they did, you know, talked to me several times. I've had several downs of truck, you know, he gave me access to all this internal stuff that came

00:20:43.390 - 00:21:01.469

flying back and forth. It's fascinating, you know, um, and you know, one of the first things that Joe said to me when I first interviewed him is, you know, we were all talking about each other, we never talked to each other. And if you can find

00:21:01.469 - 00:21:20.900

some way to kind of reignite the dialogue, you know, get it going again, it's not gonna change anything, but at least have a better understanding what's going on. Well, I mean, you know, I mean some of these were, you know, people were lefties. And belonging to

00:21:20.900 - 00:21:37.969

different groups and like, you know, the plague of the left, why there's not much organized left in this country probably is because you know the left been a little sectarian and you know, I mean you know all that but you know, so yeah, hindsight's a lot

00:21:37.969 - 00:21:49.790

better. So I mean we had real differences, right? So we were real critical. We didn't like the LRS at the time and You know, I mean, I will say even at the time, one thing I thought was positive is they did come down and when they,

00:21:49.930 - 00:22:07.760

you know, came down and, you know, a number of people, right, Oscar came down, who else was there? Sherry Tang, a few other people, and Manuel Diaz was here for 2 years, right, and he was somewhat involved in the strike. Um, was very, very involved in

00:22:07.760 - 00:22:18.290

the beginning, right, I mean, I don't think it was there for the whole time, but yeah, yeah, but, but you know, so there were those divisions and so, OK, so the one positive thing I remember is so the LRS did tell the work, hey, we're like

00:22:18.290 - 00:22:32.949

communists, and I can remember workers talking about like. God, you know, communists are supposed to be so bad, but you know they're all right, they're helping us and so you know that was a positive thing in terms of educating people to not have, you know, be

00:22:32.949 - 00:22:51.010

ignorant about things and just be fear based. So that was positive and then I think, you know, our criticism of, of them was that. For being communist, they were awful conservative, you know, that was our perception at the time, right, that they sort of, and obviously,

00:22:51.219 - 00:23:07.020

you know, it was a strategy and they thought it was gonna be more effective to sort of try to align as much as they could with the union leadership or at least the so-called new union leadership because Sergio came in, right, because Fred Hein and the

00:23:07.020 - 00:23:24.364

old guard was in right when the strike started, but that collapsed. Like instantly and then those elections and then you know Joe Fay got elected and Sergio and TD you ran a slate that totally lost except for Joe. Well, Joe pretty much ran an independent campaign

00:23:24.364 - 00:23:38.329

too which um kind of uh. Probably helped him, I think it's one thing he told me he had a falling out with Jose Lopez, but there was a slate you know the slate and then there was this is one of the things I kind of want

00:23:38.329 - 00:23:51.114

to get to the bottom of. Were you involved in that at all in the selecting the slates and everything? In what? In the selection of the two, the two slaves, no, you were, you were a supporter. Yeah, well, I'm gonna try to find out more about

00:23:51.114 - 00:24:13.010

that because they were group based, so TDU launched the slate and then, you know, the Northern California strike Support Committee or the LRS depending on how you wanna name it. Basically, they, um, you know, were supporting the strikers' Committee, which was Gloria. So, you know, I

00:24:13.010 - 00:24:31.089

mean, I tried to simplify it and put those divisions in the film, right? There was the old guard union leaders, then there was TDU then the strike committee emerged at the beginning of the strike that, um, you know, just didn't have that militant, I mean, the

00:24:31.089 - 00:24:50.689

workers themselves didn't have those lefty backgrounds. They weren't. You know, I mean, TDU and the strike committee, I mean they were all into, you know, spreading the strike into the fields and boycotting and shutting stuff down. I mean this is something I've given some thought to,

00:24:51.260 - 00:25:02.739

you know, uh, it was a big thing for Frank, you know, it just spread the strike. The only way to win is to start having the farm workers stop delivering the produce and to have some of the other plants shut down, and they actually got Crocetti

00:25:02.739 - 00:25:25.079

to shut down for a couple of, couple of weeks. Well, not exactly, but that's. After the Shaw thing, then everyone started trying to impose the new lower contract and so they were in that contract negotiations and then the workers voted down the first bad contract and

00:25:25.079 - 00:25:39.000

then the company shut the plan as a tactic to scare them and, and then they, and it worked kind of because then they, I mean they beat back one or two takeaways but then they accepted the contract. What, what, what were the takeaways that they beat

00:25:39.000 - 00:25:57.780

back? It's not clear from the press. You know, I don't remember it was benefit issue. I think they were either taking away benefits or they were just gonna delay the medical benefits. They were gonna make them like new that came up at at the end, right.

00:25:59.199 - 00:26:11.439

Um, I'm wondering if it was the same, and there was another clause that would have let wages continue to go down that they took out. Yeah, I'm, I'm just wondering, I mean, the, the Shaw people didn't lose their health benefits, did they, when they went back,

00:26:11.719 - 00:26:28.930

the part-timers, did they? Um I think they had to reapply, so yeah, I mean it wasn't a thing of Watsonville Canning was, well, this is a brand new company, so everybody's starting at square one in terms of seniority. You have to earn your benefits back and

00:26:28.930 - 00:26:53.869

that would not necessarily apply to the other plants. Um, Uh. But, so, but when you were asking about the slate. So I mean, I just saw the slates as representing the group. So, you know, the Northern California Sport Committee in coalition with the strikers Committee ran

00:26:53.869 - 00:27:16.969

their slate and the leaders of the strike support committee, Gloria at all, those were the candidates, right? And then TDU basically ran their slate and TDU was disorganized, didn't have an organized slate. Jose Lopez was all over the map, you know, and so, um, you know,

00:27:17.050 - 00:27:42.619

they had a good line. TDU had a militant line, but, you know, wasn't able to really pull it off. I found myself thinking it's too stable. He probably could provide the kind of neither Frank Joe or position. But that's who he was Manuel told me there

00:27:42.619 - 00:27:58.530

were a couple of meetings at the church where they tried to kind of hammer out a slate. And it went nowhere, you know, there were just too many competing egos or whatever, you know, Jose wanted to run for the top spot. He was mad because Joe

00:27:58.530 - 00:28:13.930

didn't want to contest Sergio Armando Morales he kind of pushed to run against Sergio. He didn't really want to do it and then, you know, Alex Barilao came along and talked him out of it. I mean, um, in retrospect I'd say that the conditions just weren't

00:28:13.930 - 00:28:40.270

there at that that early in the game for a real. Well, you know, and then like you said, it wasn't communication, there wasn't trust, right, so, um. Because you know, from the TDU or so-called more radical perspective, they saw that. You know, the strikers committee then

00:28:40.270 - 00:29:09.449

sort of, I mean, it was a tenuous alliance, but kind of aligned with Sergio a bit when he came in. And he talked to him in the last year you know I I I I I met with him a couple times and I had a couple

00:29:09.449 - 00:29:36.619

conversations and I call him up with very specific questions that have to do with the running of the union and he's very good, you know, that he's he's at because you know he's the deal. It's so funny when I talked to Joe, you talk to Sergio.

00:29:36.680 - 00:29:48.810

What does Sergio say about me? I said, Joe, I better not you know they, they, they worked together I think in a lot of ways very well, you know, around that NAFTA during the 90s and they had a tough job. I mean, you know, I think

00:29:48.810 - 00:30:08.729

during the strike, there was no love lost between them, you know, but you put people in union office, there's certain stuff that has to be done. Well, yeah, but they were seen as, I mean, OK, so remember the Wampara story and the play Frank wrote that

00:30:08.979 - 00:30:21.469

Ronnie Davis from the mime came down and directed. And that was fun. That was like a year, a little over a year before the strike started. I'm glad you said that I wanted to confirm that the troop actually did do that. But it wasn't the troop.

00:30:21.780 - 00:30:36.469

Davis was an ex-ine trooper. He had been had thrown him out years ago. He was hard to deal with. He was really talented, smart, fun, but what a, you know, pain in the ass. No, I, I know somebody who was a troop for a while. That's

00:30:36.469 - 00:31:04.969

when her hair turned white, but he was, you know, that was, that was quite, quite a piece. But anyway, but Sergio was portrayed in that play as a total sellout brown on the other. So yeah, you know, I'll tell you my take on Sergio. Um, he's

00:31:04.969 - 00:31:23.849

he's like a lot of people, career union people I've met over the years, um. Not the enemy, but a guy who's really limited by his job and his political perspective, you know, trying to do the best he can under very straitened circumstances, although when I said

00:31:23.849 - 00:31:38.859

that to Cheri, you know, he dug himself the hole that he was in, you know. You know, the sense I had about Sergio is that he just was trying to get through the strike without making any more enemies than he already had. And like you say,

00:31:38.900 - 00:31:53.689

he didn't have a political background. He wasn't politicized and he was into hierarchies traditional in a way, because remember, I think I had that interview and the thing when I, when Chavez came, his line was, oh well. I take my hat off to Chavez, but he

00:31:53.689 - 00:32:19.020

should have gone through the Teamster hierarchy to even come here. I mean, he actually said that, right? So kind of a dumb thing to say. I don't know that Manuel. I said, you know, um, you think Chavez could have pulled, you know, pulled people out of

00:32:19.020 - 00:32:34.219

the field? Do you think he would have done it? And, you know, nobody really asked him to. Um Uh, and Frank's comment is it's like he wasn't really in a position to do that much because the farm workers had already lost so much of that's they

00:32:34.219 - 00:32:47.489

didn't have any contracts that that was the big lie is that they couldn't so. He had to say, well, I don't know, we can't pull him out, you know, I mean, yeah, they, he was asked to do that, but I mean what he wouldn't say because

00:32:47.489 - 00:33:06.339

they never admit that is they don't represent farms. They didn't have contracts that they didn't have any contracts here. They had a contract in the Valley I think one grower yeah what was it started with a strawberries. Um, no, actually I think this was during the

00:33:06.339 - 00:33:23.180

strike. Um, it started with a K and three syllables. I can't remember. I got this from Mike Johnson, you know, late 90. Yeah, I mean that that's possible, but basically, you know, almost nowhere did the UFW have any contracts at that time. And so the reality

00:33:23.180 - 00:33:41.920

was, even if he wanted to do something, he didn't represent any farm workers he could pull out of the fields, you know. And so, you know, that's. I mean, the other thing. Uh, just sort of making it a general strike of all the various companies that

00:33:41.920 - 00:34:00.130

were under the master agreement originally, you know, and I know that was kind of what Frank had in mind when he and Cruz went over to Petti and tried to, you know, agitate against that that agreement that he can get. Other plants to go out on

00:34:00.130 - 00:34:19.579

the sort of increased pressure and so forth. And the whole approach the Teamsters were taking was to isolate more console, you know, and just. He was the rogue employer, you know, the guy who broke the pattern agreement and So was, was Chuck Mack considered the liberal

00:34:19.579 - 00:34:36.280

or progressive union leader? A lot of people in the Bay Area thought so, you know, I mean, I don't know what that means. Um, Chuck regards the strike as his proudest, the proudest moment of his career. But you know our group thought they were terrible, I

00:34:36.280 - 00:34:54.199

think. Well, you know, I think because any time there was any attempt for more militant action, they always say no, no, no, no, you know. It it's funny, I mean, it's like. A lot of this has to do with how you define militancy or moderation, you

00:34:54.199 - 00:35:09.850

know, plenty of those strikers. You know, would go out at night and torch warehouses or you know, people who were not going to cross the union, go out and do all sorts of stuff, you know, they follow the scabs and terrorize them and that kind of

00:35:09.850 - 00:35:24.270

thing. I mean, Gloria did that stuff, you know, did it. I mean they would consider their actions militant. But they were directing it at the scabs and you know I remember when the big riot took place on Main Street, Gloria told me, you know, it's about,

00:35:24.310 - 00:35:38.780

you know, people need to get the message that we're not happy with what's going on people should direct their an English plant out of town. Yeah, when they smashed windows after the Shaw settlement, yeah, yeah. Did you, I'm trying to remember, you didn't have that in

00:35:38.780 - 00:35:50.679

the movie, did you? This is settlement. I know you had a section on that. Did you have a section on the the the the the rally that took place on the 19th that kind of broke down? I mean, I know you had the whole scuffle at

00:35:50.679 - 00:36:06.020

the plant gates where those people you got crews being busted, but afterwards what happened on Main Street? No, I wasn't there when they smashed windows and there was a riot, you know. Nobody really wants to say who it was that was doing that stuff, and you

00:36:06.020 - 00:36:17.250

know Oscar says, ah, they were a bunch of people I've never seen before, you know you know it was I'm sure I think you probably shouldn't quote me on that one, but I remember Jose Lopez I think was uh um I mean I know Jose just

00:36:17.250 - 00:36:34.969

wound up getting put away for what, 3 or 6 months right smack in the middle of the strike, he was arrested 34 times during the strike. Yeah, because, well, as Jose used to say to me, I mean, we used to debate this stuff, he used to

00:36:34.969 - 00:36:52.110

say my meta la Violencia. I mean, you know, he, he came from a different tradition. He'd gotten run out of Mexico, probably out of his hometown for militant activities and you know, he was militant and in some ways had good politics, but not like our politics,

00:36:52.120 - 00:37:12.489

like, you know, he thought beating up the scabs or doing violence was a reasonable tactic, you know, to carry out the struggle. And so, yeah, and he was sort of like a lone gun, so. Even though he was good and, you know, in many ways and

00:37:12.489 - 00:37:31.620

could, you know, talk to his co-workers and sort of educate them and bring them along, you know, he, he had his own shtick and I keep wondering if, you know, and he was drunk, you know. I keep wondering if um he and Manuel had been able

00:37:31.620 - 00:37:49.489

to establish a better relationship when Manuel first came to town because they had worked together in the Cannery workers. If some of the difficulties could have been avoided, you know, down the road. So, you know, it was, um, I don't know, I, I think Jose was.

00:37:50.300 - 00:38:14.270

Always a little bit, you know, just on the outside and. Well, Did. OK You know who I would really like to talk to if you know how to reach her is Maria Correlejo. I want to start the hunger strike. She still around? You feel like. Ah,

00:38:15.209 - 00:38:30.080

I don't know where Maria Coralejo is, man. She's not in that local service agency anymore. She's not Watson. Um, you know, I don't know, you can, you know, send me the names of the people you're looking for. I don't know if I can track any down,

00:38:30.159 - 00:38:43.979

but, you know, I'll make a few calls and see. Um, well, let's talk a little bit about the strike support, you know, what kind of stuff. I mean, were you just busy shooting footage or were you actually involved with other aspects of that? No, I mean,

00:38:44.060 - 00:39:05.050

I was, you know, I was going on most of our meetings and You know, we were doing um as a support committee, we did a lot of You know, community support building, um, by trying to, I mean, you know, maybe because some of us were into

00:39:05.050 - 00:39:23.939

the media, we really tried to use the media so I remember we would write press releases and hold press conferences quite frequently to highlight things that were happening. So if there was, and I guess we have learned that tactic because it had been real successful in

00:39:23.939 - 00:39:42.699

the struggle against the INS. Um, you know, remember the strike was, was very popular in the media, the local media, because that's the big story. There's always, you know, there's either violence or there's people out, right, they were not necessarily sympathetic, but they like covering it

00:39:42.699 - 00:40:00.620

because it was drama, it was news, right? There was always something happening, so we could write a press release and. Organize a press conference and get all kinds of TV and newspapers out. So for example, when we went to court and Watsonville Canning Junior and Bussin

00:40:00.620 - 00:40:20.770

Law firm, what were they? Littler, Mendelso, and Thy or whatever, they wrote a did a issued a subpoena for all our member Watsonville strike support community like our membership lists and. Stuff like that and I can remember we wrote this stinging, you know, in a throwback

00:40:20.770 - 00:40:35.290

to the McCarthy era, Watsonville County union busted lawyer is blah blah blah, and you know, we did a big press conference and we went to court and we got the subpoena quashed, right? So we did that happen? That was when we got arrested. So when was

00:40:35.290 - 00:40:55.550

that? That was in February 19, yeah, yeah, yeah, um. And those 19 arrests took place in front of the plant. Well, I think it was those 2 days. It was actually 2 weeks in a row that there were the police riots, as we called them when

00:40:55.550 - 00:41:07.949

they just kind of went nuts and started, so there was the one day I got arrested that was actually people had been arrested in front of the plant and we were all pissed like because they, you know, I think they were just picketing and cops arresting

00:41:07.949 - 00:41:21.945

them. So we went down to the police station. To like complain to the cops, so we, they arrested someone at the plant, so 50, 70, 100 people went to the police station and we were doing a protest right on the steps and all of a sudden

00:41:21.945 - 00:41:33.104

they called the SWAT team to line up on the steps I guess it was on the front page of Red right at the end of the strike. I think what touched it off was they busted Shavelo, you know, that who was trying to calm everybody down

00:41:33.104 - 00:41:49.360

and Larry, you know, I demand that you arrest that man and uh. I wonder it was that Chivelo got arrested at the Klan and then people protested. Then the police ran and Carlos Rosales, they chased him into a house and beat his ass. And so it

00:41:49.360 - 00:42:05.429

was the people that had been arrested the week before, which was right after the Shah settlement, I think that riot week and then the week after then we had that protest. So over those two weeks, a shitload of people got arrested and then. Another criticism we

00:42:05.429 - 00:42:20.750

had of the union was people were getting arrested all through from the beginning of the strike, right? And we know that we thought the restraining order was unconstitutional because it was so overly broad, right? You have a plant with 1500 workers, 1000 workers on strike, and

00:42:20.750 - 00:42:36.395

you're gonna say no more than 3 picketers at a gate. OK, so our criticism of the union was that they did not fight this restraining order, and I remember talking to the Teamster, oh no, we didn't and that's bullshit. We were at court the day that

00:42:36.405 - 00:43:04.760

that hearing came up and the Teamsters did not. Oh. Actually organ, you know, did not even fight in court against the restraining order. I would have you know he he's, yeah, and he was actually the guy who came up with the idea that that was that

00:43:04.760 - 00:44:07.320

was brilliant and what I understand it. facing. the cave. So I mean the Teamsters have a rather ignoble I think in California food processing, especially in the, you know, the whole yeah, no, they were the acceptable option when you, you know, when employers

00:44:07.320 - 00:44:33.699

realized unionization was coming, better to have the teamsters than a CIO union for sure. you know I just sort of assumed that what happened in Watsonville in the 50s, but I think a lot of places were organized without the benefit of an election because people walked

00:44:33.699 - 00:45:13.350

out you know, and I think that's probably what happened in Watsonville. It's a very, very different. Probably you know people like Richard King were much more typical of the kind of people who were working on plants in the forklift up a, you know. But I,

00:45:13.360 - 00:45:24.939

I think that's one of those myths that was kind of all of us in there and signed sweethearts and God knows they did it in plenty of places. I'm not sure that it's true it's not that they don't deserve, you know, but I mean at least

00:45:24.939 - 00:45:40.909

that's Frank's take on, I don't know so much about Watson, but the Salinas Valley and you know, I mean that in general, when you know. The Teamsters were a better alternative for employers than the militant CIO unions. Well, no, I mean it's I'm sure it's complicated

00:45:40.909 - 00:46:06.324

thing, I wanted to find out, uh, originally I was just asking about the work of the Watsonville. Strike support, did you have like weekly events? I mean there was uh there was like weekly meetings and there was a big group of supporters, some from Watsonville, some

00:46:06.324 - 00:46:39.139

from Santa Cruz, like progressive activists, some progressive lawyers, um. And Chicano activists, activists, and so, you know, and the strike was not part of like TDU but you know, sort of close, just like the Northern California was very close to the strikers. The Watsonville strike Support

00:46:39.139 - 00:46:59.899

Committee was probably closer to um there was also an interesting division that the undocumented women were the most militant in the strike. So that's another thing. So the leadership was more like Gloria and they were bilingual. So they could operate, you know, in both worlds, and

00:46:59.899 - 00:47:16.139

in a way it was the people who had the least who ended up being willing to take the most risk maybe because they already didn't have anything. So like when the strike, OK, so when the Watsonville workers, you know, that scene in the film where. They

00:47:16.139 - 00:47:33.020

got the offer from NorCal, but it was eliminating benefits, and the striker committee and Sergio were saying accept the contract, and Sergio, look, the unions called off the strike, so you accept it or not, strike benefits are over. This is the best you can get, take

00:47:33.020 - 00:47:52.176

it. And then Chavelo and Carlos came to that meeting and pitched. The Union line take the contract. This is the best we can do. I don't know if you remember that scene a couple of militant I'm a minute this is not what we went on strike

00:47:52.176 - 00:48:31.939

for. We're not willing to give up. Yeah, that turned the strike er I was asshole, but I have to, you know. Is Sergio living in town? Yeah, yeah, same place he always was over by the airport, um, he's getting older now. Oh, I guess he's about

00:48:31.939 - 00:48:55.199

70, you know, I think he. When he started working for the unions, uh he was 21 and that was like in the early 70s, um, so he's a little older than me, um. Uh, you know, I think. I think he's, you know, I think he feels

00:48:55.199 - 00:49:11.790

like he he did a lot of stuff that he didn't really get credit for. He probably hates you to be the guy in that movie, you know, and, and you know, a lot of them, they never watched the movie for years. Well, I remember Oscar coming

00:49:11.790 - 00:49:24.389

to the opening. I don't know, some of your cohorts were there, I think Cherie, and they, you know, I remember him getting up after we had 500 people at the premiere and people loved it. It was like soon after the strike. It was like, you know,

00:49:24.469 - 00:49:38.270

it was a year later. And then Oscar stood up and I remember saying, yeah, it was really good, but, and then he led into it and then he's still pissed off about that movie. And then just, I mean, I think I was gonna respond or Frank

00:49:38.270 - 00:49:52.320

was gonna respond or someone was gonna push back and then some of the women got up and just let into him. He says, no, he says, yeah, it's disgraceful, but that's what happened and blah blah blah. So, um, but yeah, a lot of those so Gloria

00:49:52.320 - 00:50:04.989

and Chevella didn't watch the movie for years because they. Also heard how bad it was and then when they saw it, it wasn't as sure if you get into the parts they didn't like how I framed their group or whatever, but you know, it showed the

00:50:04.989 - 00:50:18.709

kind I mean it didn't make Gloria look bad. I mean, it, you know, it pointed to some of those political contribution contradictions, but she was one of the heroes. And so it's interesting. So there was a lot of hostility, right? I wasn't talking to Oscar, I

00:50:18.709 - 00:50:30.310

wasn't talking to Gloria at the end. I mean, I talked to her all through the stretch. She would always let me interview her and she was always friendly. And then, you know, the film got bad rap, and so they stayed away from it and they didn't

00:50:30.310 - 00:50:43.479

see it for years and then they came out and saw it and now Gloria and Cuca, who, who were, you know, talking to me and were OK during the strike and then when the film came out, it's like they heard, oh this is bad, da da

00:50:43.479 - 00:51:00.520

da. But then years later, I mean, I see them, they love it. They always, I give them copies. I, I have to tell you um. At that showing two years ago, I, you know, from what I understand, Gloria got up and she, uh, she said, you

00:51:00.520 - 00:51:12.219

know, thank you to John Silver for keeping the memory of the strike alive and made some very nice, you know, diplomatic thing. And then who could jacked her up afterwards. You shouldn't have praised that movie. It's just, you know, there's all these lies in it and

00:51:12.219 - 00:51:30.875

stuff. I mean, you know, she's, but there's no history, right? This becomes their history. So in a way, as time passes, it's like, well look at that and this documents their heroic. So, so they've really switched. So they're, so uh you're gonna see this thing from

00:51:30.875 - 00:51:42.745

two years ago. So Cook and Gloria were there and I'm in there, there's like a photo exhibit. So the community TV asked me to do some interviews. So I interviewed them, you know, I was very, I I'm here with two of the leaders of the strike,

00:51:42.754 - 00:51:55.250

and I said, like, do you remember this day in the photo? And they were both really nice. And then even Cuca, it's on the video, she says, oh, and I wanna thank you John for doing. I'm just like cracking up that, uh, you know, time changes

00:51:55.250 - 00:52:12.363

a lot. So even though there was all those bad feelings in the heat of political differences, now those differences seem minuscule, don't seem like what the important story was, right? I mean, it's all these different groups played a role. And it is what it was and

00:52:12.363 - 00:52:28.123

you know, we were, there was a little too much antagonism because even though there were differences of politics that were important, we weren't the enemies of each other. I mean, and sometimes that, well, you know, that's the problem with sectarian politics is sometimes your battle against

00:52:28.123 - 00:52:44.516

your, your own left, you know, you lose sight of who you're supposed to be fighting because you're so engaged in this. Well, I can speak for myself, you know, because when I was around the office, I heard a lot of bitter but generally we were careful

00:52:44.516 - 00:52:59.100

not to bad mouth the other forces were involved in the strike, you know, the whole thing was like keep the focus on the strike that and that was I think. There was a difference of strategy of political principle, you know, um, and I think it was

00:52:59.100 - 00:53:25.310

exacerbated to an extent it was, you know, um, you know, I mean Sergio regarded as an outsider, which is kind of interesting because lefties are always, you know, when we come in in solidarity do we call them outsiders, not usually. I mean that's usually

00:53:25.310 - 00:53:42.159

good. Well, I keep thinking of that, uh, Mark Marcello Mastriani movie, you know, did you ever see that? I mean, looking back, I mean, the guy, the character he played was kind of a bubblehead in some ways, you know, but a sincere one, you know. Or

00:53:42.159 - 00:53:57.159

for that matter, Norma Ray, you know, I mean they did a terrible job of organizing if you want my opinion, you know, take his rank and file organizer and get her fired over some piddly shit technicality, you know that's why the ILG can never organize that,

00:53:57.360 - 00:54:17.199

but um. Um, but that's, that's another story. Um, you were talking about the, I mean, I think the question of like the big deal I think with people in the league to try to keep the teams involved, you know, they were holding the purse strings. You

00:54:17.199 - 00:54:33.889

want to keep them engaged as long and as deeply as you possibly can. Right, I think the thing with Frank was the TDU people generally was the strike to the field, spread to the other, that sort of thing and not not OK, so the league and

00:54:33.889 - 00:54:48.090

stuff is more like saying, OK, we're lefties, but we have to build coalition with the liberal Democrats, which, you know, OK, sounds reasonable, but you know, when you're, when you're in the heat of a battle and it's more militant, you're saying no, the union has sold

00:54:48.090 - 00:55:05.750

us out, has been selling us out for years and so. You know, so I was, I was part of plenty of, I mean, right, but, but there's no doubt that if both sides had been a little more open and had said, well, all right, we don't

00:55:05.750 - 00:55:38.662

agree, but we really do have to find a way to collaborate, and there was some collaboration right at the beginning and then it fell apart, kind of. Well, you know. He said Joe and I made some really serious mistakes, you know, solidarity excluded

00:55:38.662 - 00:55:43.654

some of those folks from speaking at the first big rally that you've got a lot of footage of it. I don't remember. You've got you've got up on the right and Joe and then there was somebody from the Freedom Network in San Francisco. you know, and

00:55:43.654 - 00:56:02.773

that was it. No, well, there was, you know, who else, um and he and like all these different things. Who was that? There was one militant striker who did speak. No, it was someone else, I think there was a couple militant strikers. Well, she was active.

00:56:02.854 - 00:56:20.825

She was a march monitor. I remember that she was on the committee. I'm. Sure if she spoke, but someone said, you know, the police trample our rights and blah blah blah. You see it in the right, but the official, you know, people associated with the strikers

00:56:20.825 - 00:56:35.629

committee, so Gloria and them, I don't think, well, the strikers didn't exist, right, but those folks weren't invited to speak and none of the, uh, league people, yeah, so it was like this is our thing. Yeah. Well, I think there was that and I think the

00:56:35.629 - 00:56:49.439

other criticism that Frank makes is that, you know, it was like TD who tried to assume leadership in the strike instead of pushing right away for the uh the organization of the strikers. I mean if you put out a leafle at the very beginning of the

00:56:49.439 - 00:57:00.530

strike saying the union should call a meeting and electors and have a strikers can be elected. Which is exactly what happened, but of course the union wasn't going to do it, so it didn't happen. No, because remember the strike started. I mean, Sergio was in the

00:57:00.530 - 00:57:17.879

opposition almost, right? I mean, it was Jaim and King didn't speak racist crazy old school. Well, I think no, and they weren't gonna do it. They didn't even want to have the strike happen. Um, I think. The problem is that if they weren't going to do

00:57:17.879 - 00:57:29.879

it, then you have to sort of go ahead and do it independently, but one way or another you've got to get a group of people there who have some kind of a mandate from the strikers and can do the stuff that the unit's not doing and

00:57:29.879 - 00:57:41.875

I think Frank's. So is that basically TDU tried to do that. We tried to play that role and we had no business doing it well, and TDU didn't have the base and didn't have their shit together enough, so they had some good lines, you know, spread

00:57:41.875 - 00:58:00.219

it to the fields, be militant, push the boycott, but. They didn't have, they didn't have the base, and they weren't really doing the organizing that it would have taken them and you had a bill with the bigger coalition. Well, let's get back to the, this is

00:58:00.219 - 00:58:32.179

an interesting, but I, I want to get back to the factual stuff which I've got to write about, um. I find myself getting into these discussions it's it's fascinating and and despite the sectarian differences or political differences, I mean the big thing

00:58:32.179 - 00:58:44.699

was the outpouring of diverse community support from all these organizations from all over the Bay Area and beyond. Came in different ways raising money, bringing food, doing, you know, coming to the rally, so you had that bigger progressive labor movement support did you just give it

00:58:44.699 - 00:59:08.530

to the striker's hardship fund or what what did you do with the money that it went to food and I think we had a housing fund. It didn't go to the Gloria strikers. I know Shavella was responsible for this $12,000 hardship fund and he would help

00:59:08.530 - 00:59:29.649

people out with rent or you know utility bills and actually the crew and the crews are probably doing some of the same stuff, but they were kind of working on parallel tracks described as a one woman social service agency. She'd go running around town with a

00:59:29.649 - 00:59:50.409

big stack of leaflets under her arm. Um, doing social services and organizing people. That was her success um so you said there were weekly meetings, um, yeah, I can't remember if they were every week or every other week. It might have been every week for a

00:59:50.409 - 01:00:16.219

while. I don't remember. I remember somewhere at at a local social service agency, food and nutrition services, because we couldn't meet at the Teamster Hall, um, so we weren't really welcomed by the Teamsters, that strike support committee, um. But like I said, there were the our

01:00:16.219 - 01:00:38.229

strike support committee was mainly people from Santa Cruz and Watsonville, and you know, we're either I should talk to. I mean if you wanted to talk to one of the lawyers who was involved just started to get their perspective, um, probably one of the lawyers more

01:00:38.229 - 01:00:58.709

involved was Mike Mayer, M E HR and he's in a you'll find him in a phone book in Santa Cruz. I keep wondering, you know, who handled all these, all these, several 100 people were busted. OK, so what I was going to say about that was

01:00:58.709 - 01:01:11.949

the union was terrible in that when people would get arrested, they would try to discipline them by saying, not, you know, because it was a bullshit charge, right? I mean, usually not for a violent thing, but for like violating the restraining order. So they take him

01:01:11.949 - 01:01:25.370

to court and they'd say 6 months continued for dismissal. Meaning stay out of trouble. So that was their way to say, oh well, we're gonna let you off, you know, no worries, but you have to not get arrested again, or then we're gonna really charge you.

01:01:25.879 - 01:01:39.790

So basically, and so the union accepted those pleas without representing people and fighting it. So when we got arrested, which was what, the Watson 19, that was 4 or 5 months into the strike, that was the first time because the other time it was. rep in

01:01:39.790 - 01:01:54.090

the union always said just plea out just take this deal because it's good you know you're not gonna go to jail, nothing's gonna happen, whereas when, when our group met them our support committee met and we said we're not going to plead to anything. And so

01:01:54.090 - 01:02:08.879

we went back to them first they charged us with 2 or 3 misdemeanors and they offered us, oh, we'll give you 1 misdemeanor and you know, 6 months probation. We said no. And in fact, our last offer to them was dismiss all the charges against us

01:02:08.879 - 01:02:23.459

and we'll drop our civil suits against you for violating our rights and then uh. And the judge, I remember in Chambers joked that Dan Siegel was not my lawyer. We had two trials. He was the other trial, but yeah, he was one of the lawyers running

01:02:23.459 - 01:02:44.830

for mayor of Oakland. Wow, he probably went too, huh? No, is there someone more progressive running against him, you know. How do you assess something like that? I mean, he and Jean Kwan, the current mayor, both came out of the same communist organization, and they were

01:02:44.830 - 01:03:07.659

very close for years but they had a falling out, right? They had a falling out over the occupy stuff, and I think you know she's just. Problem with local politics is because there's so few really big issues that you can take on effectively. You wind up

01:03:07.659 - 01:03:17.189

quibbling over shit and then the personalities. Dan, I went to a house party. It was supposed to get me to vote for him. And I said we got to talk sometime because he wasn't involved in the strike, but you know he ran he was on he

01:03:17.189 - 01:03:33.469

did one, well, he did one powers lawsuit, but then when we got arrested, we were broken into two trials and he did one of the trials and watching him in court was amazing. Um, he demolished the DA's case. It was beautiful. And then, and he called

01:03:33.469 - 01:03:48.610

the DA out, said this is political, this is persecution. And then the DA, it was the assistant DA prosecutor. The DA came down to the courtroom and barged into the courtroom all puffed up. Who's bad wrapping me? And he goes, I am, you know, like he

01:03:48.610 - 01:04:10.564

goes, Do you want to debate it right on the steps? And he goes, Mr. Danner, I'm willing to debate you anytime, anywhere. That was a great lie out of a western, you know, gun slinging. But so but you were saying that um the trial actually happening

01:04:10.564 - 01:04:26.540

was it May or June, was it? No, it wasn't that like because it was right after those arrests were February, so it was like February, March, you know, were you? There's a period right after the union election, uh, between the union election and the Shaw settlement

01:04:27.350 - 01:04:43.300

when it seems like there was a lot of confusion, demoralization and stuff. And then that was when, you know, the Joint Councils moved in there and they looked at Shaw's books and to cut a deal with him which I think is probably their game plan all

01:04:43.300 - 01:05:18.590

along, but they just needed a basis to do it and there was a period of about 6 weeks where not a whole lot was going on. In January and early February and then I guess this group called Teamsters Local 912, which seems to have sort of

01:05:18.590 - 01:05:22.729

disappeared as quickly as it came along. Can you tell me anything about that? I saw that they put out was signed by a section. I don't think that I don't think that was a group. I may have been a but. Well that was well, but that

01:05:22.729 - 01:05:40.840

was the same, no, that was the same groups of people because the week of protests came after the Shah settle, you know, so it was kind of you know I think it was in the planning because that thing went on for a little while because I,

01:05:40.850 - 01:05:56.469

you know, I read the transcript of Joe's hearing. Before Joint counsel 7 Sergio brought charges against him. All right, he's got a fairly blow by blow account of him. Yeah, Gloria went up there and he was I leading this and he says, hell no, we were

01:05:56.469 - 01:06:13.179

sore at you because you were never around, she said, which would make sense because he was supposed to be a union officer and he was you know. He was around, but he was trying to be cautious because he didn't want to blow his, you know. Well,

01:06:13.300 - 01:06:23.879

he was in a kind of a tough spot. I know everybody was jacking him up for not opposing the Shaw settlement, you know, and then Oh yeah, he took a lot. That was, well, that was a mistake he made, and then he, he made up, you

01:06:23.879 - 01:06:49.300

know, he, but he grew, he learned, right? And then, yeah, um, we go back to um so you say they were they were regular meetings. Yeah, what would go on there? I mean, it was mainly supporters strikers, we were raising a lot of money for food,

01:06:50.030 - 01:07:05.080

so you would just give the money to the right, some of it went there, some of it I think went to the food bank. I think we were involved in in uh you know, buying turkeys for Thanksgiving and the big turkey giveaway. So there was a

01:07:05.080 - 01:07:27.159

lot of, um, you know, just tangible support like raising money, giving food away, collecting clothes and giving clothes away um helping people negotiate with their landlords and things like that, you know, that was more one off and smaller things that happened, um, and then. There was,

01:07:27.239 - 01:07:42.899

um, did you go to any of those unemployment? You mean when people were applied and denied for unemployment there were a couple of demonstrations around there. Yeah, I don't think I was at a hearing. I may have been at the demos. I don't remember being inside.

01:07:43.669 - 01:08:05.899

The support committee was involved in sort of all that, you know, food, clothing, money raising to the tangible help, but was also involved in the political side of trying to put pressure on the union, you know, working with PDU, um. We were also sort of trying

01:08:05.899 - 01:08:27.799

to expose the bias of the courts and the police so when people were arrested, we would be involved in organizing demonstrations or doing press releases and trying to get media attention around it. So yeah, I think it was a real mix of the traditional kind of.

01:08:29.069 - 01:08:49.950

Butter and bread, just be in solidarity, walk the picket line as well as provide, you know, food and money, but then there was also the more political side of um trying to organize with quote more militant strikers to push the union or the strikers committee into

01:08:49.950 - 01:09:03.238

what was perceived as, you know who would you characterize as the more militant workers when you say that? Who are you talking about? Well, you know, obviously the TDU crowd, so Jose Lopez and company, and then a number of the women, I mean, I think who

01:09:03.238 - 01:09:21.740

weren't necessarily all TDU but sort of were aligned, so you know, the Contrera sisters, Esperanza and Anita, who are both the two women who speak out in Zapatista religious language when the union called off. The strike we appeal to a higher authority to keep going, right,

01:09:21.870 - 01:09:44.369

and they were undocumented and they were militant and they weren't like politically ideological, but you know Catholic, yeah very very Catholic but um Fideelia was in that group, the Torres family, um. And then I think there was a lot of strikers who, you know, weren't activists,

01:09:44.449 - 01:10:06.540

but you know there were their friends and in that group so that um affiliated but I guess my perception was a lot of the more militant strikers were actually the undocumented and the monolingual Spanish speakers. I've, I've run across this, you know, um. What percentage of

01:10:06.540 - 01:10:23.299

the strikers just off the top of your head, you were undocumented? No, I don't really know, so you got to figure in the field. Yeah, see, but you gotta remember that the, the Kennedy workers always have, well, no, because I was doing that stuff people would

01:10:23.299 - 01:10:38.286

amazingly, but you have to remember that, um, the canneries were a step up out of the fields, number one, and also there was a lot of longevity. So, you know, I don't know what the average length, but a lot of like. These militant women and a

01:10:38.286 - 01:10:57.846

lot of these long term cannery workers were 20 years in the cannery, so I think my guess would be that a majority of the cannery workers had papers, unlike a majority of the field workers even at that time were undocumented. So, you know, I don't know.

01:10:57.961 - 01:11:10.321

I'd be guessing, but my guess would be, you know, maybe 20 to 30% of the cannery workers were undocumented, but a lot of them have been there for a long time and had, you know, been able to immigrate at some point. You said a few minutes

01:11:10.321 - 01:11:45.169

ago. I think what I was saying was that um He said that the the the the ones who were bilingual, uh, were apt to be less militant. Yeah, I mean, I, or the people who were undocumented and were monolingual were sort of more marginalized in a

01:11:45.169 - 01:12:03.709

way and um had less rights and less voice and so to me, did that translate you think I mean, can you actually I mean if. It's an assumption you can make that people who have, you know, have less are going to have less to lose, they're

01:12:03.709 - 01:12:21.859

going to be more militant. Didn't that did it actually work out that way in practice, you think? Yes. You know, it's, it's hard to say. I mean, I think that again those when you look at the women who spoke up, who stopped the contract from going

01:12:21.859 - 01:12:40.120

through and even the union and the strikers committee was saying, well, this is the best we can do and. The people who spoke up against it in general were the monolingual Spanish speakers, and that was a higher percentage of undocumented among them. I actually think that

01:12:40.120 - 01:12:55.629

once it became clear what the contract was going to do to people's health benefits. Uh, it probably didn't make a whole hell of a lot of difference whether you're monolingual or not. I mean, nobody was going to go back into those, Gloria, you know, I don't

01:12:55.629 - 01:13:15.410

want to generalize that I it's turned up I think in a couple of others I've done and I think it was part of the narrative, you know, the strikers, especially from Canning, they were all like floor leaders, you know. Um, they were all people who had

01:13:15.410 - 01:13:26.560

some clout inside the plant, and people, and they, and people were used to following their leadership. So when they elected, I don't know if you were at that meeting on October 15th where they when you wouldn't have been, they wouldn't have let you in, but, um,

01:13:26.850 - 01:13:44.069

that meeting where they elected the striker, I haven't gotten an inside account yet of it, but I'm struck by the fact that the people they elected from Watsonville Canning. We're all like supervisors or not mechanics or mechanics who had the run of the plant right like

01:13:46.439 - 01:14:00.040

like Gloria, yeah, you know, and um Joe had a very interesting comment to make about this. He says, you know, Sergio kind of. He did a number on him, um, when he was ready to retire, he wouldn't authorize. He wouldn't confirm that a couple of years

01:14:00.040 - 01:14:11.240

off the job that Joe had been on union business, so he had to go back to him or his pension. He had to go back and work in a cannery in the valley. And that was when I first interviewed him. He was working in Dixon and

01:14:11.240 - 01:14:27.839

he said, you know, There is a kind of an informal leadership structure that happens inside a plant that I'd never seen before. It's like there's this guy in my plant. He's a mechanic, very conservative, you know, politically, but he's very smart. He's got a huge investment

01:14:27.839 - 01:14:41.080

in the work. He knows everybody. People rely on him. They rely on his judgment, and if I were going to organize this plant, he's one of the first people I would go to, you know. Um, I think there's an assumption, and I'm speaking here as somebody

01:14:41.080 - 01:14:53.479

who's read some labor history too, you know, I think. There's an assumption that that you go to a workplace and it's the people who are most shit on who are going to be the most militant, and it's frequently people who are the most confidence or the

01:14:53.479 - 01:15:07.160

most assurance or have seen the most and been exposed to, you know, this is true in the UE. Uh, there's a great book which I recommend to you called, you know, the Electrical Workers, which has changed a lot of my thinking about why that union was

01:15:07.160 - 01:15:29.640

left. I mean, the people who led it were all skilled, more educated, mainly guys, and there were a lot of women in those plants during the war. Uh, you know. If that's generalizable at all or Joe set me thinking I guess when he said that, you

01:15:29.640 - 01:15:46.250

know, because it's true everybody they elected from Washingtonville canon was either a floor leader or a mechanic, right? So in a way those longer term workers, more bilingual and more leaders or natural leaders and like you say, people that were looked to. Whereas the monolingual Spanish

01:15:46.250 - 01:16:01.814

speakers who are, they're in a more marginal group. I mean in the end I think you know some of those people didn't belong on that and they just kind of flaked out you know and people like Lydia you know sort of kind of breach. That's the

01:16:01.814 - 01:16:50.029

thin I think the steady responsible, you know, the ones who are used to feeding and you know people like Lydia or you know or steady, but you know. She actually became a union official didn't she, yeah, yeah. Um, anyway, I, that was kind of what I

01:16:50.029 - 01:17:08.390

was thinking when you were saying that it's like that maybe. Uh Because when I asked Esperanza Contreras, you know, how did you decide who to pick, you know, at that meeting? She said, we just pick the smartest people. That was the way she put it. Um,

01:17:08.649 - 01:17:25.779

and she didn't see any contradiction between that and, you know, her own politics, you know, a lot of the problem with them is too is it's, it's like nobody in that group had had any experience administering a union contract, doing the kind of the groundwork of

01:17:25.779 - 01:17:41.959

collective bargaining and stuff like that. This is on the on the striker or anywhere else for that matter, you know, I think Joe had to learn as he went along. Um, no, right, people did not in general have a lot of political experience or organization and

01:17:41.959 - 01:17:57.069

you know I think one of the reasons Armandomora is kind of abandoned ship because I can't do this job, you know. What's gonna happen to me if I get in there and I actually have to negotiate with these guys. Well, when did he have? He went

01:17:57.069 - 01:18:15.069

back to work after the strike. I don't know. I mean he had a couple of I guess I could try to track him down. I understand he's in Sacramento, but you know. I got a phone number for him for Gloria, but she said to make sure

01:18:15.069 - 01:18:31.919

his wife doesn't answer the phone or you won't get anywhere, you know, um, and she's still sore kind of the way he kind of dropped out of things, um. But um it's funny. Gloria has kept that even though she hasn't, you know, been involved in local

01:18:31.919 - 01:18:45.509

politics, she is like, you know, active in the community and she worked at Long's for a long time. So everyone sees her, so she's still like the face, like people still talk about her some like people don't even know, oh yeah, the blonde and and she's

01:18:45.509 - 01:18:58.270

sort of still a feature in town, so it's sort of like she represents some of that history in towns like she gets Oscar drafts anytime they sound kind of a dust up in local late night and he needs some help, you know, he'll usually call on

01:18:58.270 - 01:19:29.654

her and I guess they've had their share of dusts. They got into it with you know with the joint cos I think a few years ago and then on the city council for most of the time the strike,

01:19:29.665 - 01:19:46.640

you know, on and off. I mean that's the other thing that happened during the strikez versus Watsonville went to the Supreme Court, so you know that's so I can see why she would be. Why don't know if she's she's I don't know. I don't know. I

01:19:46.640 - 01:20:03.765

mean in a way. On community organizing, but she didn't, but she didn't, she didn't focus on her campaign by the third time I was knocking on people's doors, they're like, where's the candidate and she was too busy doing what she thought was the priority was her

01:20:03.765 - 01:20:18.950

social service work and we're like, Cruz, you just, you know, led this case when, you know, the mainstream Latino leaders did not want to sign on to the MLA lawsuit. And she did and then they won and then she had the opportunity to one and she

01:20:18.950 - 01:20:37.464

lost by like 20 some votes to Paul Maladdin, who was a local landlord. Yeah, yeah, I guess I'd heard from Frank was that she was furious at Oscar at that point, you know, he's he's coming in. Picking up the harvest and, you know, that kind of

01:20:37.464 - 01:20:59.325

thing. This is Frank's take, you know, she was very right, right, I mean sort of overly right because again that divisions within the movement became more I guess, you know, and it's terribly terribly subjective and you know I think maybe more so after 1990, you know,

01:20:59.334 - 01:21:12.609

uh. It's when you actually have to get out of the oppositional phase and take some responsibility and start. It gets a lot more confusing, you know, what you're supposed to do. I think the same thing happens when people get elected to union office. I went to

01:21:12.609 - 01:21:30.990

lunch with Oscar. How do you get along with, you know, I mean I'm not close to him, but you know we're friendly and I have, you know, I tried to recruit them on to when I was on the TV and, um, you know, so. Yeah, no,

01:21:31.149 - 01:21:44.209

so whatever, all those bad feelings and the same thing with, with pretty much the rest of the folks. I mean, I never see Sergio, but you know, the people we had divisions with, I think those are sort of buried and everyone's moved on and nobody has

01:21:44.209 - 01:21:58.149

any juice for any of that, which is good. Well, that makes it, that makes my job a little easier too, you know, I think one of the toughest things I find is try to not get sucked into these debates. They're 25 years old, you know. Yeah,

01:21:58.229 - 01:22:12.290

and I don't think they're alive now. I mean, now it's more interesting to analyze what happened and what the strengths and weaknesses of that, and I think, you know, and again, and the strike wasn't the most organized, there were all these divisions, but I mean, the

01:22:12.290 - 01:22:28.689

most impressive thing that I come away with it is that notion of solidarity that that almost no one scabbed. I mean, no one from Watsonville really scabbed. They bring the scabs in from Gilroy and Hollister because no work, no one really would cross the picket line

01:22:28.689 - 01:22:46.589

locally. Well, that's and then that, right? And then the tremendous community support. Well, because it's a small town, so in Watsonville, if you weren't a cannery worker, you had a relative or a friend who was. And so it was an amazing amount of solidarity and then

01:22:46.589 - 01:23:04.810

the community support that came from within Watsonville were even. You know, some of the white establishment, it was probably conservative and, you know, not activists, not involved in politics, were very sympathetic to strikers like average working people in town who are not political, maybe not even

01:23:04.810 - 01:23:25.930

Latino, were all sympathetic to the strikers. I mean, even a lot of the landlords were cutting, you know, we're not evicting people, um. Mhm. So I think that was the most striking thing is the level of solidarity that cut across not just workers who were on

01:23:25.930 - 01:23:45.609

strike, but the larger working class community and the larger kind of middle class community both locally. And in North County, I mean, you know, Watsonville is always famous for being at odds with Santa Cruz, right across every issue and uh. I mean it was pretty amazing

01:23:45.609 - 01:24:01.700

to see, you know, from the Bay Area all these progressive groups, women's groups, labor groups coming in to support and then locally the same thing and then all these different community people. Um, I mean there was a lot of solidarity and the legacy is there. I

01:24:01.700 - 01:24:23.270

mean, I still get invited, you know, I'll go to Watsonville High and give a talk and show my film and I haven't been in in the last year or two, but she used to invite me in almost all the time and uh you know she's on

01:24:23.270 - 01:24:40.509

um. You know, it was, it was still current. Now it's like my grandmother, you know, or great grandmother, so you show it to kids at Watsonville High and they'll recognize an elder now who was in their family, so, um. So it's been a pretty, you know,

01:24:40.549 - 01:24:55.359

and I think that the young activists sort of coming up through the Brown Berets and Luis Alejo, right, you know who he is, he's our congressman now. So, OK, Luis Alejo went to. Did he go to Harvard or yeah, you know, he, he got out of

01:24:55.359 - 01:25:12.240

Watson, went to Watsonville High, was one of the founders of the Brown Berets at Watsonville High, went off to an Ivy League school, became a lawyer, came back and came back here and um was working at CRLA as a lawyer and then got on the city

01:25:12.240 - 01:25:29.950

council and moved up quick. Now he's, he's uh. Like 2nd term state assembly. And uh but you know, probably if you interviewed him, so he's younger, right? He Probably when he was in high, he must have been in high school, I'm guessing during the strike and

01:25:29.950 - 01:25:48.029

so a whole new generation of the Chicano activists were sort of brought up in the shadow of that strike. The Browns were like late 60s early 70s, I don't think you're not talking about the young lords. Yeah, no, there was a, there was a group in

01:25:48.029 - 01:26:16.109

California called the Yeah, no, I mean I knew them when I was in college. I don't know if that was. I don't know that there's like a lot of young people in Oakland Black Panthers, you know, the

01:26:16.109 - 01:26:27.259

originals I grew up in San Francisco and Oakland, you know. the Panthers were still there, huh? Oh, they were, they were, they were falling apart by that time, but you know, I, I, I knew a bunch of those folks. My dad worked for the Panthers, um,

01:26:27.540 - 01:26:42.569

I, you know, I was just Emory Douglas's show, you know, at the local art gallery the other night. You know, he signed his little book in memory of Doctor Shapiro, you know, and gave it to me because he remembered my dad and Bobby Seale remembered my

01:26:42.569 - 01:27:01.160

dad. I mean they. It's, yeah, I remember going to the local Panther headquarters where I lived in Jamaica, New York. Uh-huh. So did you know any of the folks back there? I mean, did you know Asada Shakur I mean, I was a kid, my dad was

01:27:02.759 - 01:27:13.390

involved somewhat with that stuff. I mean like you know. Yeah, uh, Probably should wrap this up, but uh.