00:00:00.009 - 00:00:35.590

Oh, Hello. Good. Can be, OK, um. So we were talking about um. Uh, Community bridges, food and nutrition services, you say you were working for food and nutrition services, um, and this was, so I'm wondering maybe that could be where I met her the first time.

00:00:36.599 - 00:01:05.309

Was this after you left Richard Shaw or before? Um. If you can't answer these, don't worry too much. I'm going back. Um, I'm trying to think. Um, let me see, did I work there after I worked for Richard Shaw or before? You know, I'm just OK

00:01:05.309 - 00:01:28.029

dokey, um. Oh, let's see. I think I worked at Richard Shaw before I worked at food nutrition almost positive, yeah, I worked there before. And when you married Joe, you moved over to SEIU. Right. What kind of stuff went on at food and nutrition services? I

00:01:28.029 - 00:01:50.089

know Cruz is doing a lot of organizing around immigrant rights. Yeah, there was just different stuff happening there, you know, we were, it was kind of a little bit of an activist organization somewhat, you know, we would. Um, You know, we would And But I was

00:01:50.089 - 00:02:07.129

working in kind of a strange interesting job. I was working for all the, you remember CEA. Yes, I do sort of the precursor to Bill Clinton's welfare, uh, you know, so I was in charge of all the workers and I was going to help them find

00:02:07.129 - 00:02:22.259

jobs. That's what I was doing. And it was probably about 50 of them. And food nutrition services, 50 of them and I was. Kind of like a little organizer and trying to help them get together and workers were assigned to food and nutrition services and you

00:02:22.259 - 00:02:37.800

were like overseeing them, yeah, it was a fairly big operation if you had 50 people. Yeah, 50 workers. I'm pretty sure there was 50. It was a pretty big operation and what did what did they do exactly? I mean, what, what did the agency do? We

00:02:37.800 - 00:02:52.960

just counsel people or? No, they did all kinds of stuff, you know, I used to work for this really wonderful organization. I was in a big factory in Watsonville, and we did everything for people. It was all in Spanish, and I, I got that job after

00:02:52.960 - 00:03:08.729

my first job that I got working at the migrant camp. I worked in. And it was named after somebody, um, it was, it was in a big factory down here, right over here. I can tell you right where it is, and a big warehouse, it was

00:03:08.729 - 00:03:24.669

in a warehouse. And we did everything for people. We did translation services. We actually took people to the doctor. We did everything for people who who were Spanish speaking, you know, that needed help with anything we did. We helped people. It was a big and there

00:03:24.669 - 00:03:41.380

was a ton of us in there and and and and and and I think I was a CA worker then, yeah, that's what I was. You were a worker. I was a worker, yeah. That was before food and nutrition. Because I worked there, like I said,

00:03:41.460 - 00:03:56.690

my first job I got here after the Peace Corps was as in the migrant camp, and then after the migrant camp, I went to this big warehouse where you know we spent the whole time helping anybody that's Spanish speaking and do anything that needed, you know,

00:03:56.940 - 00:04:12.740

we would, you know, translate the documents we would translate been writing for them if they needed to do it. We would, uh, take, we would take people to doctors, we would. It was just like this big huge organization to help Spanish speaking people basically and it

00:04:12.740 - 00:04:29.940

was and I was what was the name of the organization you remember? Yeah, let me think about it. Um, because it was named after somebody. Oh, and I'm almost thinking it was Cesar Chavez, but it wasn't Cesar Chavez. It's OK. I mean, um. If it comes

00:04:29.940 - 00:04:43.779

to you, you can tell me and I'll put it in, but it's not critical. So I'm just getting your work history together here. You came out of the Peace Corps. You went to work at Buena Vista for a while, uh, then you, then you moved over

00:04:43.779 - 00:05:00.619

to this other agency which basically helped people. You know issues kind of navigate the system, then you got a seated, uh, uh, that was what that was, right, a seated. That one was a seated. I was, I was a worker and then I went to help

00:05:00.619 - 00:05:12.929

workers after that and er and that's where you met Cruz. So tell me about her since she was your roommate, maybe you can fill me in. I, in case I don't get to talk to her and right now it looks kind of like a long shot,

00:05:14.040 - 00:05:33.100

um. Uh, Where, where did she come from? She looks kind of young in the movie. She looks like she's in her mid-twenties. And those pictures of her too that, you know, she keeps popping up in the, you know, because she's a lot older. I think she's

00:05:33.100 - 00:05:51.019

maybe even around my age now. I would think she was pretty much around my age, so I don't know if she was that young. Because I came back from the Peace Corps and I was about maybe. 27 or something? OK, and this is like in the

00:05:51.019 - 00:06:17.144

mid 70s. Um, yeah. Well, let's see, um, I went into the Peace Corps when I was in 1973. I went into the Peace Corps in. I just graduated from Flagstaff, the University of Flagstaff Northern Arizona in 1973. In 1973, I went from graduating toned. Mhm. You're

00:06:17.144 - 00:06:37.579

about the same age as I am, yeah, I'm 66. I'm doing the math. Oh really? OK, well, excuse me. I was born in 195151, and, and, and, and you're the same age as my sister. OK. Um, so I've got your work history now, and you went

00:06:37.579 - 00:06:56.369

to Shaw. After you worked with food and nutrition services. I went to work in shop pretty early after I got here in this community. like a seasonal thing you know where you worked for and got laid off or Shaw's is not all year round. None of

00:06:56.369 - 00:07:18.989

the canneries were, you know, all the people had to get unemployment insurance after they worked and then Apple was even shorter because the apple season was even shorter, so working in the apple shed was even a shorter season. Um, The um canneries were longer season than

00:07:18.989 - 00:07:33.869

the act. You were in the party I think almost from the time you came back to Watsonville when you were talking, you joined very shortly after you got out not too long after did they ask you to go work in the frozen food or anything like

00:07:33.869 - 00:07:47.109

that? No no, that was my that was they didn't operate that way. They didn't place people in different jobs or they didn't do that. No, the party didn't do that. They didn't ask people to do that, no. Everything that I did in that way was I

00:07:47.109 - 00:07:59.140

decided to do in terms of and I decided to join the Communist Party. I decided to work in the plants. I decided that was my those are all mys know they didn't have us try to do any. They didn't ask us to do anything like that.

00:07:59.470 - 00:08:11.269

It was, it was pretty, it was, you know, I liked the Communist Party here in this area. It was, you know, I like the people that I work with. I like the, you know, I like everybody, you know, I like the Communist Party, and you know.

00:08:11.670 - 00:08:21.779

And then going up to, I would, I would go up to San Francisco for their meetings that they had up there and that's where I would meet all the people that I was in love with because they, you know, their backgrounds were so fucking horses from

00:08:21.779 - 00:08:37.905

the, yeah, those were people like I was like, whoa, these people. So incredible. That's why I said, Well, this is why I'm a communist because of the people that I get to know. Did you know Archie Brown? Yeah, his daughter was a buddy of mine in

00:08:37.905 - 00:09:01.609

high school. Yeah, I know Archie. She's an electrician up on the reservation and uh. Um, um, golly, yeah, yeah, uh. It's like that you talk with joke about wiring ahead for a reservation and he actually does it anyway. Yeah, I remember Kenya who died in, you

00:09:01.609 - 00:09:21.830

know, Kenya who was a communist who died in a fire, Kenya, her last name was. I mean she's really close with Angela Davis and everybody and she was kind of the Kendra Alexander Kendra Alexander, yeah, I didn't. I knew these people by name. Yeah, Kendra Alexander

00:09:21.830 - 00:09:36.909

is exactly your name. Alexander. I was trying to think of her name. That's her name. That's her. That's Kendra. Yeah, she died. I mean, I remember. Seeing Archie, yeah. I was 12 years old and I was watching, you know, the big demonstrations at City Hall in

00:09:36.909 - 00:09:51.580

1960 and. You know, here he is just sort of, you know. Cussing out the, you know, open the door. What are you afraid of? Open the door, you know, the cops. Take your goddamn hands off me, you know, who is this guy and you know the

00:09:51.580 - 00:10:17.210

guy who wrote all those books about black. I mean, I, uh. And his daughter worked at UCSC. Um, Well, it was Bob Allen. No, not him. Do I, do I have his books I'm trying to think. I see. Um. You know what tapes running. Um, the

00:10:17.210 - 00:10:34.830

tape is running. I want to sort of stay on the program here. I don't want this battery run out in the middle. Yeah, he's a really famous in the written all kinds of wonderful books and his daughter was really. Well, Phillip was the big historian and

00:10:34.830 - 00:10:51.900

I have all of his books. I have all of his books. I have. Uh But he did a lot on black, um, and he was one when we went to Cleveland that they took the the microphone away from him and everything wouldn't let him speak. Oh

00:10:51.900 - 00:11:06.640

my God, have been an ugly, um, so you're talking about Cruz, you weren't sure where she was from or how she had she'd already been here for a while when you met her? Yeah, she'd been, she'd been here for a while. I think she was here

00:11:06.640 - 00:11:21.460

before me. Yeah, she was here before me and she wasn't from here originally. No, John Silver told me oh, I think she was, I think she was from Santa Barbara. That's what John Silver was telling me. Yeah, she's from Santa Barbara. Uh-huh. How did she get

00:11:21.460 - 00:11:51.419

involved in the movement, do you know? Um, she was always talking about her background, let's see how she, um, Let's see. I mean she, she felt like she was from a working class family. I remember that. And um She um. And she had. Daughters and everything

00:11:51.419 - 00:12:05.359

else, so I know she had a daughter. I'm not sure about a son, she had a son. I never saw them, you know, they never showed up here. None of her family. Your voice is dropping. I can't hear none of her family showed up here, so

00:12:05.359 - 00:12:19.799

I never got to meet anybody from her family. It was kind of strange. I don't know why they wouldn't, I wouldn't have met anybody from her family here. I don't know if they just were became mad at her or something and she might have even said

00:12:19.799 - 00:12:39.599

something like that you said, huh? You said they they might have been what? I didn't hear that mad at her. Oh mad at her, yeah, OK, um. And She had she been active in Santa Barbara? I mean, did she, how did she wind up in Watsonville?

00:12:39.750 - 00:12:57.909

I think she, she was somewhat active, you know, because I think she was there around, you know, the Isla Vista, you know, Isla Vista. I think she was around the Isla Vista kind of thing she was at UCSB then. I she might, you know, my sister

00:12:57.909 - 00:13:11.599

graduated from UCSB. I'm trying to think did did Cruz graduate from there? Well, she didn't have to graduate. I don't know if she graduated. I'm not sure. I just remember I remember when they torched the bank and I had a roommate who participated. Yeah, yeah, my

00:13:11.599 - 00:13:28.880

sister was there during the torching of the bank. My sister was a was a student at the UCS because there was an anthropology prof there I guess it was a big kind of a cause of a guy named I think Bill Allen. Um, we're going back

00:13:28.880 - 00:13:41.719

to my own. Time that San Francisco State now cause I remember writing an article about what was going on down there. Um, not the bank, but the, the whole flap over the anthropology process, you know, when I was there, I was young, I used to go

00:13:41.719 - 00:14:00.950

to the demonstrations because I was in Santa Barbara and I went to high school in Lompok. Lompoke is about less than an hour away from Santa Barbara Lompo, so my sister went to UCSB and she used to come home. She could come home easily because it

00:14:00.950 - 00:14:16.849

was not that far away. So when I was in high school, I went to the demos and the National Guard, you know, was in there, you know, we had the National Guard and so I would go there against the National Guard. I'd protest against, you know,

00:14:17.030 - 00:14:38.140

you ever go to so I was. I was, I was, I got pretty active. Way back in high school, way back in high school. Yeah. Uh But you wound up going to school, going to college in Flagstaff and then and you came back to California because

00:14:38.140 - 00:15:00.190

your sister was, yeah, OK, I got it. Yeah, my oldest sister from UCSB, the one that graduated from UCSB, and my, my mother still lived in Lompo, but you did not know Cruz in Santa Barbara, even though you're both pretty much the same time. No, I

00:15:00.190 - 00:15:14.479

didn't know her until I met her. You never talked about stuff, you know. Yeah, maybe, maybe a little bit, you know, but I think she would tell me sometimes about her family and then what she. And then, you know, yeah, so I think she was, I

00:15:14.479 - 00:15:33.090

think she got a little bit involved. Do you see, you know that stuff I love this stuff, yeah her folks, um, was she like second generation or were her folks Mexican immigrants or had they been here? Was she? She was, I think her parents. I think

00:15:33.090 - 00:15:48.690

she learned Spanish. In other words, she didn't come from a family that spoke it that much. I think she learned it. I'm almost positive about that. He isn't a trace of an accent when she talks. No, she, she, I think she learned Spanish. In other words,

00:15:48.809 - 00:16:03.419

she didn't grow up she didn't grow up speaking it she learned it, yeah. She had to learn to go to school and try to learn it in school, so she and her family wasn't. But her, her big political commitment at that point was like immigrant rights

00:16:03.419 - 00:16:17.359

when she first started out, you know, I really worked in immigrant rights too. I mean Silber was telling me that was how he kind of hooked up with her is that, you know, as he said, as he puts it, we ran out of Watsonville pretty much

00:16:17.969 - 00:16:33.260

after the, you know, the those big hearings and. You know, the migrant media organized and you know that came up around the Para case, right, you know, did Joe tell you about the big play we did? Yeah. Uh, several people. Mike was the first person I

00:16:33.260 - 00:16:47.150

heard about from it, you know what they did? They had the actor with Sergio, you know, playing Sergio, his face was half brown and half white. Yeah, that sounds like Ronnie Davis, all right. He, he directed it, didn't he? Well, yeah, and and and and the

00:16:47.150 - 00:17:02.530

and the people who were, yeah, and the people who are really involved in. They were in a mariachi band. They were really involved in strike 2 and a guy and I'm trying to think, oh, I knew him so well, he actually played for a wedding. They

00:17:02.530 - 00:17:16.920

played for a wedding. Joe never told you about them? No, he told me what he. What he told me about your wedding was that it was so stressful because everything all hell was breaking loose in the plants, you know, on the picket line and it was

00:17:16.920 - 00:17:29.880

like it was like he had all this responsibility which he was barely able to handle even under normal circumstances, and he says I look at those wedding pictures and it's like the expression on my face it's like I'm not all there. Yeah I can I can

00:17:29.880 - 00:17:49.859

relate because I got married under similar circumstances, you know, it was a nice wedding in spite of it, but it was, it was a really super nice wedding, very, very beautiful wedding. It was really a nice wedding, super nice, yeah, all like, oh, he he did

00:17:49.859 - 00:18:08.609

not talk much about the wedding except to describe how distracted he was and what a difficult time that was for him. You know, I think As he talked about the whole lead up to solidarity day. I found my solidarity day, you know, on October 6th, that

00:18:08.609 - 00:18:25.760

the, the first big demo after the strike, you know, which he feels. You know, and I, I think Frank even more so that that was really not handled right. Um, the way Frank puts it this, you know, the big mistake we made. was trying to act

00:18:25.760 - 00:18:39.489

as if we were the union. Um, we were, you know, we could see the union wasn't doing its job, so we just moved in there and tried to do it instead of organizing a, you know, or or organizing a striker committee and let the strikers take

00:18:39.489 - 00:18:52.619

over because we were trying to do the work they should have been doing. That was that was Frank's assessment, and I think to some extent. Uh Joe would share it. I mean, the, the sense I got from him when he was describing that whole period to

00:18:52.619 - 00:19:06.579

me is that he just felt. Way the hell out of his depth, you know, that he didn't know very many of the people on the plants because, you know, he was. Working at UPS that he that he was working days at that point. Uh, and he

00:19:06.579 - 00:19:27.349

had all this responsibility. Um, Yeah, because UPS is completely different than the cannery not even it's not even, I mean it's not even whatsoever has nothing to do with the canneries whatsoever. It's like really different but it was a general, so yeah, yeah, yeah, no, we

00:19:27.349 - 00:19:41.530

had everybody in this area was in t a member of 912 anymore when the strike happened, right? You, you pretty much left it when you got laid off because I was working for SAUIU, yeah, you belonged briefly. Well, I mean, do you know, I mean, you

00:19:41.530 - 00:19:57.050

must have known some of the people who were on strike at Shaw, uh, once the strike happened, uh, I mean some of the big activists in the plant, did you know Aurora Trujillo or what's your name, the one who was. I guess she was elected to

00:19:57.050 - 00:20:12.099

the strikers Committee and then she wound up running on Sergio's late in the election, Victoria. Benavides, I think was her name, and then there was someone named Linda. Linda Garcia, I don't know any of these people. I know who I know who Aurora was because she

00:20:12.099 - 00:20:28.160

lived across the street from the plant, you know, Aurora, and you know she was the one who got busted on her front porch for violating the injunction, you know, I remember a lot of talk about that, but. You know, um, in the movie they say that

00:20:28.160 - 00:20:46.949

the, and I think Frank said this too in his article after the strike that the strikers committee reps at Shaw supported the agreement that Shaw that that brought the strike to an end there and I'm not, you know. I'm not really I don't know a handle

00:20:46.949 - 00:21:01.560

on that at all. I know that there were a lot of people who were elected to the strikers's committee who kind of disappeared within a few weeks. You know, and probably we're not the best people to elect, um. There were other people I think who just

00:21:01.560 - 00:21:15.920

were totally solid and kind of Battle through to the end, you know, like like Gloria. Well, you know, yeah, yeah, there's some people that didn't really want them to settle, but there was some people that didn't want them to settle, but yeah, I mean there was

00:21:15.920 - 00:21:33.170

a lot of anger. One thing I noticed, you know, going through the police reports that they ran the register. They were probably more incidents of people, you know, throwing rocks at scabs at Shaw than there were at Watsonvilleanic. Oh, so I'm not even sure about that.

00:21:33.329 - 00:21:47.369

Wow. So in terms of the police reports that you read, well, I mean, I take that stuff with a grain of salt, but it occurred to me, you know, as I was sort of dutifully copying all this stuff down from the files that um. Probably In

00:21:47.369 - 00:22:03.060

the case of Shaw, you actually had people who had been your coworkers crossing the picket line and. Uh, and you would know who they were. You'd recognize their car. They'd be much more likely targets and somebody was being bussed in from 50 miles away. You know.

00:22:04.619 - 00:22:17.709

I don't know. I just want to run that by you to see if I'm all wet or not, if that's your, you know, if you think that makes sense. What what what makes sense. That there was much more likely to be vandalism. Directed at people crossing

00:22:17.709 - 00:22:36.459

the picket lines at Shaw. Because the strikers at Shaw knew who those people were, they knew because they they'd worked alongside them and there were people at Shaw who never who didn't honor the striker who quit very early and went back to work, um. I talked

00:22:36.459 - 00:22:52.819

to a lady over at the ice cream parlor there on Main Street. Um, you know Conchitas, you know, the place I mean. Oh yeah, yeah, I know her. Yeah, she's a really good friend of mine. Yeah, yeah, well, she gave me a delightful, you know. Oh

00:22:52.819 - 00:23:02.599

she did well she knows me, so you could tell her I'll tell her. I, you know, I was gonna, before I came over here, I had a little time, so I went and got myself an ice cream cone and I was gonna tell her, you know,

00:23:02.760 - 00:23:14.520

your interview was really helpful, thank you, you know, but she was on the phone, so. Oh, on the way out of town, I'll see if I can catch her, but she told me that the other woman working there was her husband was a Shaw striker who

00:23:15.089 - 00:23:35.130

voted to go back to work. Um, her husband, yeah, not, not, not, not, not, but the other woman working there. Oh wow, um, and you know I was curious about that. Um, I have not really gotten into talking about the Shaw strike because. You know, it's

00:23:35.130 - 00:23:52.020

not to keep the subject manageable, and I think it's really more important that people held out to the end. Um But I am Curious, I mean, I just dropped some names of people who worked at Shaw. Um, I know Aurora Trujillo was somebody who was there

00:23:52.020 - 00:24:03.199

right till the end. Do you know, do you know her? Do you know how to find her? I mean, I knew her during that, but I haven't seen her since then. See, I, I, I knew her then totally. I know her well she would know me

00:24:03.199 - 00:24:18.150

and I know her, but, but she, but you know, I mean, I run into people all the time, you know, and they call me Karina, Karina. You know they all hug you. Hey Kani. So but her, I have never ran into her. I'm never here she

00:24:18.150 - 00:24:31.729

is. So I'm not sure if she just left town or something because I run into people, you know, blurry, but of course I've seen her quite a few times, but I mean and just other people. Esperanza, I did see, but I haven't seen her for a

00:24:31.729 - 00:24:49.079

while. Esperanza Torres or Cons? No, well, no Esperanza. I, I saw her for a long time because she didn't, she, she used to live in Salinas, and she was an organizer for 90 for a while, wasn't she? Yeah, or for the international maybe, maybe the I

00:24:49.079 - 00:25:03.670

don't know if she kind of got forced out because she. Got involved, I guess there was some big power struggle in 890 and the international kind of tried to step in and. Um, Mike explained it all to me and I couldn't keep the details straight. It

00:25:03.670 - 00:25:20.989

was so complicated, you know, I don't I don't really know that story. Well, she, anyway, that was kind of the end of her time with the Teamsters, and I guess she's living in Sanger now. You know, south of Fresno and she did return my phone call

00:25:20.989 - 00:25:36.670

but. You know, uh. I'm gonna have to find somebody who's willing to ride out to Fresno with me who can translate before I go, I think because, you know, I was gonna I was gonna try to call her and ask her when she's gonna come. I

00:25:36.670 - 00:25:57.660

haven't done that yet. She, she works for migrant, but um was Esperanza, was she involved in TDU before the strike? Frank thought she might have joined afterwards. TD you after. I'm trying to think. I know she was associated with TD. I know that um I'm trying

00:25:57.660 - 00:26:10.900

to think she plays a big role in that movie, you know, I have some really good friends who were involved in TDU, and they're really famous too, to be honest with you, but not in terms of strikers. They're, they're from the Green Giant plant. Yolanda and

00:26:10.900 - 00:26:29.420

Lauro Navarro. And and and and Yolanda was actually on the front page of I can't remember if it was Forbes or Businessweek, a big huge picture of her on the front page with her with her two sons, a beautiful picture of her because she became really

00:26:29.420 - 00:26:45.280

famous, uh, during the whole NAFTA issue, right? And because Green Giant was going to be going to Mexico because of NAFTA, whatever. And she, she became, you know, they did this whole boy, she did this whole, I mean, she became. She became really famous to the

00:26:45.280 - 00:26:59.239

point where she was on the front page of a big heavy duty magazine, and she spoke at all these rallies all over the place and a lot of times I would go and translate for her or whatever. She speaks kind of English now, but her husband

00:26:59.239 - 00:27:18.680

doesn't speak as good English, but he was, he was definitely involved in TDU way before the strike, um, Lauro Navarro, um, they're really a wonderful couple, they live here. Um, really wonderful people, did you, did you know any of those people who were Elected to the

00:27:18.680 - 00:27:36.109

strikers Committee from Shaw. Aurora was, but uh yeah, I'm trying to remember some of them, yeah, I knew some of them, but I'm trying to remember Linda Garcia Victoria I know, I know I know Victoria Benavidez but um Linda Garcia, I'm not sure was the woman

00:27:36.109 - 00:27:50.750

in the movie. Who stands up and says. You know, there there's there's footage of the ratification meeting, you know, where they. You know, Leon Ellis gets up there and said this is a lousy contract, but we have no choice but to accept it or where's to

00:27:50.750 - 00:28:05.010

that effect and then. Uh, one of the members of the negotiating committee stands up and says, you know, we can't ask Shaw for money that he doesn't have or something to that effect. Do you know who she was? Do you remember the movie? Yeah, I know

00:28:05.010 - 00:28:18.069

I've seen the movie for a long time, but um. Because I find that even John Silver doesn't remember who some of those people were. I is there a woman, was she kind of like light skin? She was, she, she came and you know she didn't have

00:28:18.069 - 00:28:32.810

her name was Valerie or something she didn't even have. She didn't even have a Spanish speaking first name Valerie. Her name, my first name was Valerie, but I don't know what her last name is. That's that's I'm pretty sure her name was Valerie. Well, she was

00:28:32.810 - 00:28:49.219

obviously not on the striker. She would have been on the select a negotiation was that negotiating committee selected, you know, Shaw? It wasn't just the striker. It was like, no, no, it wasn't. It wasn't because I know that when Alex would go in there to negotiate

00:28:49.219 - 00:29:02.189

a contract, he'd bring a bunch of workers in there with him. And I think you know even that owner, whatever the fuck his name is Shaw, the guy was trying to, I think he probably handpicked them. I don't know. I that's what I did. That's what

00:29:02.189 - 00:29:26.319

I think. I think he handpicked them a lot. He's a pretty slick cat and he was a pretty slick. He also just despised console, you know, and I think. The union kind of felt like. They owed him in a way because When they cut that deal

00:29:26.319 - 00:29:44.329

in '82 with console to reduce the wages. You know that damn near Shaw out of business. I think that was one reason why they were so anxious the union was so anxious to settle with Shaw. It's like they felt like, you know, damage control. Just, you

00:29:44.329 - 00:30:02.979

know, King broke the pattern agreement. He pretty much destroyed our, you know, the sort of consistent wage level that we had in the industry, and now this guy, you know, threatened to go out of business. His cat plants really overcapitalized and. Um, you know, he at

00:30:02.979 - 00:30:16.880

least is willing to work with the union. Let's settle with him and concentrate on counsel. I mean, that was the whole approach the Joint Council 7 took, and you know, you can even make a case for it. But You know, the way it was done was

00:30:16.880 - 00:30:40.469

so heavy handed, you know. And it really put the Watsonville County people in a horrible position. They basically had to fight for everybody, you know, on their own, um. You know, so I, I, I do feel like Shaw was kind of a. Not exactly a special

00:30:40.469 - 00:31:00.969

case, but he He wasn't out to bust the union the way Conseil was. Uh, not really, but I mean he used to go around. I mean he walked all around the plan, yelled at people, and he used to see him all the time screaming at you,

00:31:01.300 - 00:31:26.530

yeah, they would walk around and yell at you and he'd be around and like holy shit yeah. He could get along with the team he just couldn't get along with his workers. Yeah, he, he got along with the Teamsters. He actually did. The teamsters actually liked

00:31:26.530 - 00:31:38.079

him, and to me, I mean, I thought it was bad news that the teamsters liked the guy. You've got to be fucking kidding. You were in bed with fucking Shaw. I mean, that's what I thought about it. Like the Teamsters are fucking in bed with Shaw.

00:31:38.369 - 00:31:55.589

That's what I thought about it. Well, I mean, I helped to write an article, you know, in unity about the Shaw settlement. That was pretty much the way we handled it too. Um, It, uh, I, I think what upset us was that most favored nation clause

00:31:55.589 - 00:32:10.589

in the contract whereby if consul settles for less I reserve the right, you know, it's like invited a big race to the bottom and then you know what I noticed was that when the Crossetti contract came up in June. Were you involved with that one at

00:32:10.589 - 00:32:26.569

all? Not too, too much, but yeah, I know Cruz is really deeply involved with that. Was she apparently, yeah, I guess, see, here's this is something I wanted to ask you about the the strike support and you know we we keep getting dragged. I have a

00:32:26.569 - 00:32:46.199

whole list of questions here. Um, well, I want to back up and try to kind of do this in order. Um, But You say that you Cruise was a roommate of yours. You worked together to nutrition services, and that she was still working there when the

00:32:46.199 - 00:33:06.770

strike came. The food and nutrition services, that's what John told me. I think she might have been, yeah. And she Spent a lot of time kind of helping people out with individual issues. strikers were being evicted and stuff like that. Yeah, she, she, she was, you

00:33:06.770 - 00:33:24.089

know, she's. You know her style was um. Her style was to do a lot of one on one kind of work with people, you know, kind of like one on one, going to people's homes, you know, going to this person's home, going to that person's home.

00:33:24.969 - 00:33:41.119

Um, kind of like, you know, cystine, she was, she was, she was kind of, you know, she did a lot of one on one, you know, kind of helping this person, that person, you know what I'm saying. Jim Bro said something about her which interested me.

00:33:41.160 - 00:33:57.800

He said he didn't think she really understood. To unions worked very well. Well, I would maybe agree with that, yeah, because I mean I was working for you. I mean, you have struggles with her at all about that? Yeah, I think a little bit I think

00:33:57.800 - 00:34:14.520

because you know that's all about, you know, our, you know, her, you know, having some difficulties with me because we just had different points of view sometimes it is like that, yeah, I, you know, I guess she put out a leaflet. Which Frank has in his

00:34:14.520 - 00:34:28.360

archives up at San Francisco State, you know, he's got a big box full of papers you can strike up there. Oh wow, that's interesting. You might want to go up there and take a trip down memory lane where would it be at the at the at

00:34:28.360 - 00:34:43.199

the 4th floor of the library in San Fran, the archives, you know, history and archives, um, he, he gave over a whole lot of stuff. I think there are 3 boxes of stuff that Alex left there too, which I haven't seen yet. And at the labor

00:34:43.199 - 00:34:59.800

and it's it's on the 4th floor of the main library, yeah, and the special collections at the back of the, you know, the back of the room there, um, and you have to go there in the afternoon. It's worth a trip. You go there, you'll probably

00:34:59.800 - 00:35:15.520

see me there, um, anyway, um. Frank saved a lot of stuff. So did Steve Morrizumi. I don't know if you knew him, but he just gave me a whole box of know him well, yeah, but he, he was, he was with the Oscar people, right? Yeah,

00:35:16.000 - 00:35:33.360

yeah, and he was with Rios. Steve actually wound up in Eugene, you know, Oregon, they're running the multicultural center there on the University of Oregon campus, and I guess he did something very similar. It's UC Santa Cruz. Um, but he was there, I think even before

00:35:33.360 - 00:35:51.419

Oscar was. I think he might have been there when Manuel got to town. um, anyway, he had a whole box of stuff in his parents' basement in San Francisco. And she just sort of gave to me. It was, it was great except that a lot of

00:35:51.419 - 00:36:09.540

it was, you know, had water stains on it and you know reeked of mill stuff will at least Frank's stuff is well preserved, you know, but the thing is, the reason I bring this up is when I interviewed Cuca. Oh, that's another person you can. She

00:36:09.540 - 00:36:29.179

described throwing Cruz bodily out of that meeting. Out of the meeting where they were debating whether to accept the settlement with Nor OK. And I thought, well, that's being, you know, she threw out the meeting because what was her reason well. I, you know, I just

00:36:29.179 - 00:36:45.659

thought because, you know, she has a temper, you know, I don't know how well you know her, but yeah, she's, yeah, I mean that's the way she is, um, and, um, but then I saw the leaflet that Cruz was handing out apparently at the meeting. And

00:36:46.889 - 00:37:04.830

I thought, well, hell, I can see why people would have been pissed off at this. I remember there was, I was like she didn't know what the details of the agreement were. But the headline said lies and tricks, so little half page week in Spanish. I

00:37:04.830 - 00:37:19.320

don't have it with me unfortunately, because they, they were gonna copy it for me at the library in San Francisco State and haven't got around to it yet, but um. The headline said lies and tricks. It said the Teamsters and the strikers committee are selling you

00:37:19.320 - 00:37:36.510

out, you know, they want you to settle for 505 again, you know, if I can afford to pay 585, so can David Gill, you know, something like that and. I was just thinking You know, I Was a union member for all of my working life was

00:37:36.510 - 00:37:53.939

in 6 different unions. And the last one, you know, with the letter carriers in Portland, which is a very, very progressive. Arguably one of the best in the country and you know 15 years but you know, and we were always like becoming involved, you know, we

00:37:53.939 - 00:38:07.360

contributed to jobs with justice, you know, we were involved with all different community issues. But if somebody had showed up and you know, we were always letting people come and talk to us about some cause or other. But if somebody who wasn't a member in the

00:38:07.360 - 00:38:27.370

union had showed up at our Meeting where we're discussing the contract. Then try to tell us how to vote on it. We would have thrown them out on their ass. Even if they were right, just because it wasn't appropriate, you know. Um And I think This

00:38:27.370 - 00:38:41.689

is probably what Jim was referring to. She didn't have any sense of the boundaries are. She, she was, to be honest with you, I'm going to say, she was kind of naive about quite a few things. Cruz, I mean, she was dedicated and that's what people

00:38:41.689 - 00:38:54.929

will always say about her fucking dedicated to the people. But she was naive about a lot of stuff, I would say maybe, you know, and she would not like me to maybe say that about her. I mean if we were talking about, but she was somewhat

00:38:54.929 - 00:39:11.229

naive and that's how I thought of her like, wait a second, she doesn't get it, man. Like sometimes I would just think she doesn't get it, man. Do you have here? I do have a leaflet to show you actually. Um, actually this is a good leaflet.

00:39:12.070 - 00:39:25.590

This, this is like basically what you do if you're facing eviction. This is in Frank's collection up there and this is from who? Well, this is planned by the support, you know, I think this is probably something that Cruz was handing on around town and people

00:39:25.590 - 00:39:45.719

were being evicted. But This is the one that caught my this is accurate information. This one is pretty accurate information. Oh you don't pay your rent, you. I mean this is, yeah, I mean a lot of people just kind of caved the moment the landlord, you

00:39:45.719 - 00:40:00.100

know, gave him a look of the impression I got they didn't know how to. Did a lot of the work you guys did in the support was geared toward helping people who are being evicted. We did a lot of work around that. I mean we just

00:40:00.100 - 00:40:12.100

did a lot of the work we did was getting them food, right? I mean, I remember during times I remember even just during Thanksgiving like hustling to get, you know, turkeys to people, you know, like I was doing all this hustling to try to get people

00:40:12.100 - 00:40:29.425

turkeys and try to give me so so so. A lot of the hustle was was food, and the other hustle was um evictions and the other thing was to try to make sure the solidarity days that people feel like they're together with people. They have some

00:40:29.425 - 00:40:41.639

entertainment, you know, we would try to, you know, entertain them because their life was so fucking difficult, so we solidarity was to try to make their life a little tiny bit lighter. You know that's what they, that was what this all you had those what they

00:40:41.639 - 00:41:04.530

were, you know, but then we would have entertainment for them, you know, like entertainment um. I remember we brought a guy in that was a bubble guy and did all these bubble things, right? Yeah, well, no, for the adults too. The parents loved that just loved

00:41:04.530 - 00:41:20.290

the things that he used to do and um. You know, we would bring people that could sing and we would bring local people or yeah because we like the like the Mariachi band and I'm talking about the thing they they would come, you would have the

00:41:20.290 - 00:41:44.370

Saturday and the regular things, right? Yeah, or evening. I'm trying to remember. I think they afternoon into the evening, you know, yeah, yeah, it would be like in the afternoon towards the evening and then you guys had your own strike strike committee meetings at the nutrition

00:41:44.370 - 00:42:04.570

service office. That was what Jim. Yeah, you, you met once actually. We used to have meetings, yeah, we used to have all the meetings all the time, so and it was a strike committee which was not strikers, you know, people. For the past 10 weeks, local

00:42:04.570 - 00:42:28.379

people have been meeting regularly is the Watsonville strike committee. Pastors, teachers, nurses, lawyers, workers, school aides, laborers, students, young and old to the meeting. Were you working with that uh that that that clerical task force that was investigating, you know, evictions and stuff and try to

00:42:28.379 - 00:42:44.479

hold those community meetings? Was that something you guys were involved in organizing? Yeah, um. Yeah, it doesn't see where we're having them. I was trying to think. I think we had some in the in the senior center meetings at the senior center, you know, the senior

00:42:44.479 - 00:43:02.669

center that's, yeah. Yeah, Gloria would take me there, to strikers, you know, yeah, about 4 or 5 interviews over there. Yeah, we had the senior Ken's name is familiar. I think he was in the plant closures. Oh yeah, I forgotten what union he was in. Yeah,

00:43:02.760 - 00:43:21.820

I know him. Yeah, I, I know him. I know Kinder, so but I haven't seen him for so damn long and I knew him. He was a kind of a friend of mine. He was from, let me think. He was a a union guy, yeah. Um,

00:43:22.060 - 00:43:43.500

you know what, for some reason, I don't think he was a teamster. Kinder Sherry Lesson was a she was my best friend. She was my best friend, yeah, she was my best friend back then. One thing that Because I was trying to pin down when I

00:43:43.500 - 00:43:57.090

was talking to John Silver. I was trying to Julie Miller was, you know, Frank's wife Julie Miller was a teacher. She's Frank Barke's wife, right? Oh, Julie, yeah, sure, that's right. I didn't realize it was the same one. Yeah, yeah, I met her, yeah, yeah. Yeah,

00:43:57.169 - 00:44:08.979

she, she was a teacher, yeah, I think he dedicated his book to her, I think, yeah, yeah, I see her all the time because she goes to the gym. I talk to her all the time. Yeah, well, I've talked to Frank several times and you know

00:44:08.979 - 00:44:25.780

Mike died. He was he was from Santa Cruz, right? No, no, he, he's Watsonville, he's Watsonville. No, he was an old old friend of mine. I knew him and his wife and his family. He was. I read something that he'd written in some Santa Cruz, I

00:44:25.780 - 00:44:42.550

guess, but he used to he used to work in a little a little bookstore in Watsonville, but he's from Watsonville and he's always like an old lefty. Yeah, no, Mike Mike. I think he joined the Communist Party. I think he was in the Communist Party for

00:44:42.550 - 00:45:00.429

a while, and also, also the guy that was the Communist Party was um a guy named Robert Chakanaka who's head of the Central to Central. He's head of the Central, yeah he's head of the Central Council of the Central Labor Council. He, he is the head

00:45:00.429 - 00:45:16.379

of the Central Labor Council. He's the president Monterey Bay, Monterey Bay. It's called Monterey Bay Central Labor Council. That's what it's called. Well, the union he's with, he's with AFT now. He was, um, CSCA before, and he, they deserted them. He was involved in this whole

00:45:16.379 - 00:45:33.459

thing where they deserted CSEA California school employees, and became AFT because, you know, he was totally into he thought they were more leftist leaning AFT than CSCA whatever, so he, he, he, he's, he works with AFT and they do have a, they have a Santa Cruz

00:45:33.459 - 00:45:55.610

office. Never the office in Santa Cruz. So he's with the um Santa Cruz. Um, City of Santa Cruz, the, the union that represents the city of Santa Cruz workers and teachers. You probably should talk to him. Did you say you thought he was in the CP?

00:45:56.179 - 00:46:19.060

He was, he was, yeah, yeah, he was in the CP. It's interesting. It seems like a lot of these folks were. It wasn't just kind of random left left activist, that's me. Union rep Karen Osmund Osmundson union rep. That's me, that's my name. And Delia Mendez,

00:46:19.100 - 00:46:37.709

I've interviewed. I'll have to talk to her again. Is Deli Mendez in here? And Dave Howman, I knew him too. Well, I know all these people. Pastor, yeah, I remember him. So I mean I guess what I wanted to ask you about specifically with this open

00:46:37.709 - 00:46:58.860

letter. This is actually from Steve Morrizumi's. Uh This I guess was right after the recertification vote. I guess somebody from the local had asked you guys to do childcare at the veterans hall. They were bussing people over to the plant and you know, the, the big

00:46:58.860 - 00:47:17.919

wigs from the international kind of tossed you out. Do you remember that? Well, this was the response. I was just wondering who wrote it and how much discussion there was of it before we put it out. This paragraph in particular which one this one yeah yeah.

00:47:20.100 - 00:47:41.290

And also support the efforts of labor unions. You're not blind and unquestioning supporters. We are not sheep. When we have senior union and its officials take the wrong path. Is they're talking about the teamsters or any union what a wrong path or use bad strategy. We

00:47:41.290 - 00:47:58.459

have a criticism and suggested different alternatives when we have senior union and its officials failed to provide you with what's important the job in the streets, in the courts, and for your children, for your homes, we have spoken up, we cannot. For his son about this

00:47:58.459 - 00:48:15.770

kind of neglect indifference and it comes everyone has the right to. I mean this sounds like the kind of thing that Oscar Rio's people would do, which we, which I wasn't completely 100% you know I think who did this? Well, this, this is the, the Watson.

00:48:15.780 - 00:48:41.959

Yeah, yeah. Yeah, that's the way Frank has filed away. Yeah, right up here. During the Watsonville and Santa Cruz strike, no, Oscar would never, you know, publicly bad mouth the union like that because the whole point was to keep them engaged. That's true, you know, he

00:48:42.780 - 00:48:56.149

he didn't want to repeat a you know you could struggle with them. You weren't gonna that's true. I totally agree with you about that, yeah. Provide a Great Friday support because the support has commit the solicitation and expenditure of over $35 for any of that supplement.

00:48:57.419 - 00:49:12.219

Yeah, I would provide advice counseling information about the domestic financial reeding China to strikes why if we have strongly encouraged open and direct moral and public support for the strikers. You've never allowed an artist to make everyone aware of the conditions that made the striking. All

00:49:12.219 - 00:49:33.149

these kinds of support probably would have. All these kinds of sport probably would not have happened except for the. Wow, that's interesting. I mean it's such a strong thing. Wow, who who who wrote this damn thing? I was, I, you know. Oh, you know, it sounds

00:49:33.149 - 00:49:45.989

like her type of. That was what made me think of it, you know. Oh, that sounds like I mean there were a bunch of people working with her, I think that sounds like maybe she could have been doing this. Yeah, that sounds like her. Although we

00:49:45.989 - 00:49:55.760

support the strike and I'll support the efforts of the labor union. We're not blind and questioning supporters. We are not cheap. This sounds like something you might say when, when we have senior union and its officials take the wrong path or you've got to start this

00:49:55.760 - 00:50:10.149

to God. When we have senior units, officials fail to provide you with necessary support on the job in the streets in the courts and for your children, for your homes. We have spoken up. We cannot and will not remit some of this kind of a neglect

00:50:10.149 - 00:50:33.199

and incomence right for our opinions, we know the strikers are thankful and appreciative. We see this in your smiles and greetings to us from your union officials, both local and international we have mostly received abuse and mistreatment. That's funny. From your union officials, both local and

00:50:33.199 - 00:50:52.639

as we have mostly received abuse and mistreatment. Wow, that's, there's some strong statements which she, you know, tended to do as an individual and as a group. We have been publicly attacked and assaulted by city officials. The police company owners and their spokesmen and your union

00:50:52.639 - 00:51:08.600

officials, we must have done something right. You know, I showed that to my wife who was a, you know, building rep in the teachers union up in Oregon and. She said, you know, If I were one of the strikers and I saw this, I would be

00:51:08.600 - 00:51:26.250

pissed off. It's like, that's why I think that's what I was going to say it's like it's all about the supporters, not about the strikers, you know, I can understand people being pissed off at being, you know, mistreated by, you know, what's his face, Rodriguez or

00:51:26.250 - 00:51:42.149

whoever it was you in the future, the Wattsville Santa Cruz strike will be expanding our focus to include other aspects of social and economic justice in the Valley. Thursday night at the WIC would be the food and nutrition service, right? Yeah, the office is part of

00:51:42.149 - 00:51:59.159

food and nutrition is part of the, OK, actually there's the answer to my question right there. Yeah, the part of yeah, yeah. Yeah, office, office part for. Yeah, this is some sort of stuff like I told her I think she was, she was naive about a

00:51:59.159 - 00:52:14.570

lot of stuff. I'm just wondering, I mean, it's like did you guys. I mean if there were CP people working in the support in the watch and she wasn't CP, right? No, she, she, she definitely wasn't, but I would think that you know. People who have

00:52:14.570 - 00:52:27.489

been through the CP would have known right off the bat this isn't the way you talk about, you know, about a union in the middle of a strike, um, it's, it's, you know, and I'm just wondering if if there was struggle over this, if there was

00:52:27.489 - 00:52:48.629

any kind of group discussion of it when it came out. Why did this happen? Wow, this sounds like cruise. Yeah, got to be her. I'm guessing you know I don't know because I told you my feeling about her is she was naivety about being dedicated and

00:52:49.439 - 00:53:04.010

dedicated to the people, dedicated to I mean she's so involved, this and that, but she was naive. She was naive about a lot of stuff. Yeah, she was not even about a lot of stuff and I, I think that's probably where she and I had our

00:53:04.780 - 00:53:17.699

kind of differences. Did you really get that between you that she felt the need to apologize to you? Yeah, she apologized to me. She called me not too long ago. you apologize for? I mean, well, I mean, I don't really I mean I don't really think

00:53:17.699 - 00:53:32.600

so, but, but I'm just saying she was. She she treated me not so well and I mean and I I didn't treat her badly because I was like, what's the point? I mean for me what's the point? Why should I, why should I, why should I

00:53:32.600 - 00:53:45.080

even feel I mean for me I wasn't mad it wasn't this and that. I was like kicked back, much more kicked back than she was, but she was, yeah, she was like she was, she was like she would treat me not so well, you know, she

00:53:45.080 - 00:53:59.100

would be a little bit. So I, I guess she was trying to tell me that she was sorry for treating me. Yeah, you don't remember what the point of contention was between the two of you. I just, I just feel I hear, I just feel that

00:53:59.100 - 00:54:14.840

she and I'm not gonna, I'm, I. I, I don't know, I don't feel like, you know, that that I was somewhat threatening because I was an activist and she, you know, we were, you know, we were, you know, as two women we were really there, we

00:54:14.840 - 00:54:30.310

were active in the in the community, you know, and so I just think she thought, you know. You know, I'm, I'm the main activist here in Watsonville. I am the, you know, I am the one that people should look to, that people should care about more,

00:54:30.389 - 00:54:43.800

you know what I'm saying? Yeah people should care about me more. They should care about what I do more. They should care about not what you do, not how you know that I think that's how she thought of it, see what I'm saying? You know, it's,

00:54:43.810 - 00:55:08.820

it's interesting because. Sheri T gave an interview with an undergrad up at UC Santa Cruz. Uh, that was actually how I discovered Jim Brough too because she interviewed him too. Um And Cruz was interviewed. Uh, and I got the sense that there was. Bad feeling, you

00:55:08.820 - 00:55:28.760

know, a lot of just really personal animosity, the crews felt. And you know, yeah, not well, you know, I went to I went to talk to when she first came to town I guess we. December of '85 or something like that. Um, and she was sort

00:55:28.760 - 00:55:48.010

of representing Northern California support committee which kind of pulled all the different. Union and the Mesha people and so forth in the Bay Area, yeah, um, you know, it just strike support. And Shereen said she went to. I guess she went to meet with you and

00:55:48.010 - 00:56:02.639

Cruz and the reaction she got from Cruise is. You know, what are you doing here? And she's just like I was on her turf, you know, and I wasn't welcome the way I felt and. I talked to her more recently because a lot of time has

00:56:02.639 - 00:56:17.290

gone by and everybody's had a chance but, she said, you know. She was really important. The work she did was really good, but when she was ahead of her time without a lawsuit. But there's just a little too much ego involvement in it. Well, you know,

00:56:17.449 - 00:56:28.110

because I, I just, I just think her feeling was, you know, I'm the one that people should look, you know, she was a little bit ego, yeah, I'm the one that people should look to. I'm the one that people should go to. I'm the one that

00:56:28.489 - 00:56:42.169

I'm the leader of everybody's, you know, this and that and the other thing, and you, me, you shouldn't be, you know, you're not, you know, you're, you know, you as an activist are not, you know who I am. I don't know, you know, like that was

00:56:42.169 - 00:56:58.639

kind of like your thing, yeah, yeah, well, you know. Um, When I interviewed Manu well about her, you know, he said. Say what you will. What she did was really important. That lawsuit was a game changer. Well, that was, yeah, but she was not the only

00:56:58.639 - 00:57:14.169

person doing the lawsuit a lot of people, um, but I mean she was the only hedd her as a one woman social service agency, you know, I think Frank describes her just sort of it's like a visual joke. She was always running around town with a

00:57:14.169 - 00:57:32.949

big stack of leaflets and forms under her arm, you know, kind of buttonholing people and. You know, that's the sense I guess it's just really totally dedicated, totally committed, but. Almost in the kind of the. You know the Einsky style community organizer, you know, talk to

00:57:32.949 - 00:57:55.600

people where they're at and that kind of thing. You know, um. How, how do I describe it? I, I hate to characterize anybody just on the basis of what other people say about them if I haven't had a chance to talk to them myself, but if

00:57:55.600 - 00:58:12.439

I can't find her, I can't find her, you know, um. Frankly, the comment was like she was somebody sort of rediscovering her roots kind of thing. Uh, she sort of found a place for herself in Watsonville. You know she did find a place for herself and

00:58:12.439 - 00:58:32.360

I totally think that she found a place for herself. I mean this was, I think you know she was wandering and never felt really, you know, in touch with anything wherever she was, and she came here and she found a place for herself here yeah. I

00:58:32.360 - 00:58:46.530

know she helped a lot of people during the strike. What kind of help did she give? Uh, I mean, did she work mainly on the people who are being evicted? Uh, people just kind of all purpose uh. I'd say she was all purpose. She would go

00:58:46.530 - 00:59:00.969

to people's homes and kind of be there for them or strikers strikers' homes. I mean, I think she's on the film going to a striker home, isn't she in the film? I mean she's all over the place in that film, I think, you know. John Silver

00:59:00.969 - 00:59:19.419

kind of regards himself as her protege. You know, the way he described it, she was the one who kind of. Open my eyes to how you organize people. Opened his eyes, yeah, yeah, pretty much, you know, I was, I wouldn't of organizing is not my style

00:59:19.419 - 00:59:35.800

whatsoever. I would not follow her. I mean she and I, I mean, because, you know, I became, you know, pretty much an organizer in the union movement and she has nothing to do with. So, so, so a prodigy, what I, I would never feel like that

00:59:35.800 - 00:59:52.000

about her. I mean, I'm just thinking she, like I said, I think she was somewhat naive, a little bit egotistical, somewhat naive, and she didn't, and, and, and as an organizer she was not, she was not an organizer, not an organizer, no. She was like you

00:59:52.000 - 01:00:09.239

said, a social servant, she was like she was, you know, she was like, like, like you said, 11 big she was like she was doing social services basically that's her thing. She was fucking dedicated in terms of, I mean she was never stopping, but that's what

01:00:09.239 - 01:00:27.820

she was doing. She was doing what you might call social service work, you know, but organizing, no, not organizing. I mean, I mean the proof of the pudding is. You know, I think. I mean, when you organize workers, in other words, what we're doing during the

01:00:27.820 - 01:00:41.300

Teamsters, getting people to fucking make motions as organized, you know, I mean getting people to meet, just getting them there. I mean she didn't get people tons of people to go places to do things, you know, she wasn't that kind of person. She was a one,

01:00:41.379 - 01:00:58.600

I told you one on one, but in terms of organizing people, getting them to go to fight back, to get theirs, that's not what she did. That's it's it's interesting to me, yeah, I mean this is actually very helpful in a way of understanding. What John

01:00:58.600 - 01:01:16.530

said was that he Yeah, he did immigrant rights stuff with her. And what he learned from her was that you can't just mobilize people or rally them you have to sort of involve yourself in. Yeah it's the day to day hassles of their lives. That's how

01:01:16.530 - 01:01:32.860

you win people's trust and so on. You know, I I really agree with that. I wouldn't say, but, but, but you know, in terms of In terms of work I've always done with the unions because I worked with unions for almost like 20 years or 20

01:01:32.860 - 01:01:53.669

years and I worked with lots of different unions unfortunately I didn't ever stay with one, so I never got a fucking pension, for example, um, because I moved around too fucking much, um. You need to show people, I mean, you, you know, people need to trust

01:01:53.669 - 01:02:14.090

you, so, but the way that you get people to trust you. Is to. Is to like convince people that they can fight back, you know, I mean that convince people that they can fight back um and then I just don't think that she was there to

01:02:14.090 - 01:02:29.810

do that. I was she was there to help them be there for them, the social service worker, you know, be there, help them. So in terms of John saying that you know that you can't go out and mobilize them, and you have to make sure, you

01:02:29.810 - 01:02:47.810

know. I don't know. I mean, you know, I mean, obviously I used to handle shit loads of grievances too, you know. So yeah, that's one worker coming to you that falls with them and you work with them and I fucking and I was fabulous at winning

01:02:47.810 - 01:03:06.010

grievances. I fucking win grieves. I mean we I would win them, but I was like, yeah, we can we'll do. I was like, really like, oh, we can fucking do this. So in terms of working individually with people, I did that, but my whole viewpoint was

01:03:06.010 - 01:03:17.840

to organize, you know, that was my viewpoint. It was not organized. It was not like, you know, it was not like, you know what I'm saying? I'll tell you why I jumped in there. I mean, I can think of a bunch of examples. You could talk

01:03:17.840 - 01:03:34.939

about the Panthers and it'll serve the people programs he did. It's like, um, you know, uh. My wife worked in the Chinese Progressive Association in San Francisco. Uh, and yeah, I mean they did a ton of organizing, you know, they were always. Throwing up picket lines

01:03:34.939 - 01:03:47.750

somewhere or other, but they did the English and the citizenship classes, you know, uh, you were always running to somebody's house if somebody had to be taken to the hospital, that kind of stuff, um, you had to do both, in other words, maybe the problem with

01:03:47.750 - 01:04:01.840

Cruz is that she only did one, but you know, Mike Johnson because he was talking about the early history of the cannery workers before it became part of TDU, and he said, you know, he, he kind of took it. Because it was so hard to organize

01:04:01.840 - 01:04:13.040

seasonal workers because they're scattered all over the state, he said, we got this idea from the farm workers. You set up these service centers which can kind of serve as a place where people can go and they need help with stuff, and that's your way of

01:04:13.040 - 01:04:27.149

staying in contact with them when they're not working, he said, but the problem with the service centers is people started seeing them as service centers. You know they'd go there to get help, but we weren't organizing them. Uh, we were just helping them out of jams

01:04:27.149 - 01:04:39.649

or translating or filing out filling out forms for them and stuff plus we were doing stuff for them that the union should have been doing and we should have been organizing them to make the union do. I think it was at that point that Mike thought

01:04:39.649 - 01:05:00.229

maybe that was what put the idea in his head of having the Camry Workers project affiliated with TDU. Which it did I guess in about uh 79, 80 something like that and. In retrospect, I thought it was a good idea at the time. Um, but there

01:05:00.229 - 01:05:13.590

was so much friction. You know, inside TDU over the role of the Cannery Workers Project and stuff, and I wonder about it. I'm not sure about all that. Yeah, well, you don't have to. This is my own. Yeah, I mean, I know about all that, but

01:05:13.590 - 01:05:27.449

I'm just like, I don't know. I mean I don't know enough about the whole thing. Mike's got his rap, you know, um, yeah, I mean that was sort of the project is kind of his life's work and you know, I think there was a time when

01:05:27.449 - 01:05:42.189

he really thought that. It would be good for TDU if it got a big chunk of Latino workers in there, so it wouldn't be this, this white truck driver's outfit, it would be. Good for, you know, caring workers to be associated with this national rank and

01:05:42.189 - 01:05:59.310

file caucus, that's true but you know, but it's a great idea on paper, you know, it didn't work out very well in practice, I don't think and I don't think Manuel, although he was hired by TD, I don't think he ever really. Bought into that idea,

01:06:01.120 - 01:06:19.610

the idea that that that TDU was gonna be, you know, that it was gonna help. He thought it was a very opportunistic kind of arrangement, you know. Um That it would, it would give the caring workers prior to a little extra organizational stability. But he didn't

01:06:19.610 - 01:06:39.100

see Ken knowing anything about organizing cannery workers, you know, that kind of thing, you know, he puts it needed us more than we needed him is the way he put it, you know, um, that's true, that's that's that's. I found him fascinating to talk to you

01:06:39.100 - 01:06:53.840

he's stuck around town too after the strike right he just, he's here for about 20 years in CSCA, right? Did you know him at all? Did you work with him? I mean, I know him, um. I know him, but I mean it's not, and I didn't

01:06:53.840 - 01:07:12.899

get to work with him that much, no, yeah. Barely knew him, you know, I mean I didn't have much contact with him. He was in San Jose. I was up in Oakland, but, you know, interviewing him, I found. And for one thing it's just a. Wonderfully

01:07:12.899 - 01:07:31.739

articulate and expresses himself beautifully. That's just the way he described Cruz, you know, how did he describe Cruz a one woman social service agency, and he said it very respectfully, um, and I've heard a lot of people talk about what that's a good, that's a good

01:07:31.739 - 01:07:49.790

description, Jose Lopez and just about everybody I talked to. So, you know, he was just You know, he was nuts. I mean, he, he, he kept getting busted for DUI. He kept doing things that were irresponsible and ultra left, and he got thrown in jail right

01:07:49.790 - 01:08:05.689

smack in the middle of the strike for slugging a reporter, you know, I mean, did you ever talk to, I don't know how to find him. He's somebody else I would like to talk about him, but I've never you know really well, tell me if my

01:08:05.689 - 01:08:21.950

perception of him is correct. I mean my. You know I liked him, you know what I'm saying? I didn't think of him as just a fucking, you know, um, difficult getting in trouble kind of guy. I mean, I just thought he was really right there in

01:08:21.950 - 01:08:39.810

terms of and he was a pretty good TDU, you know, I mean he was really right there with the TDU he knew what to do, but. Uh, but he was, you know, really, let's see, how could I describe him. Um, You know, he, he really knew

01:08:39.810 - 01:08:56.508

how to get in people's faces. Well, what Manu said was, you know. Politically he was very sharp. He was very sophisticated. He was he was very articulate. He was smart, you know, he said he he had a lot of courage, he had a lot of heart,

01:08:57.199 - 01:09:11.180

but he wasn't just an anarchist. He said he was an anarchistic personality. He simply could not deal with any kind of collective responsibility, so you couldn't trust him. You know, and Manuel actually worked with him even before there was a Watsonville TDU chapter. He was kind

01:09:11.180 - 01:09:29.309

of the go to guy in Watsonville for the Cannery Workers Project, I guess. So they knew each other back in the late 70s. And you know Manuel liked him and he respected him, but You know, uh, Once the strike started, he was just a loose cannon,

01:09:29.458 - 01:09:42.470

you know. That that's the way he kind of put it to me, but he spoke of him more. Respectfully, I think than anybody else. Well, he has some anger, you know, probably I don't know why he has some anger issues or whatever. I don't know, could

01:09:42.470 - 01:09:58.529

have been, you know, something to do with even just his life and his background or whatever because he, he did have what you might call anger issues. Do you know the circumstances under which he left Mexico? I gathered he was an active in the Mexican left

01:09:58.529 - 01:10:10.140

and You know, got himself in hot water. Yeah, I think he was. Yeah, you don't know the details. I don't, you know, I wish I did. You know how to find him, by the way. I mean, I'd love to talk to him. Yeah, he's another guy

01:10:10.140 - 01:10:25.569

I haven't seen for a really long time. Let's see what he would be fucking great. You know, there's another guy named Carlos, whatever. Oh yeah, Carlos works for us, you know, little guy, yeah, very articulate, yeah, yeah, he was pretty he used to speak at Unity

01:10:25.569 - 01:10:46.470

events occasionally. That was how I first met him, um, and He actually he he threw some Motov cocktails. Did he do that, Carlos? I had no idea. I know that Gloria's husband got sent up for a year for doing that. Um, You know these guys fresh

01:10:46.470 - 01:11:08.549

out of the Mexican left really tended to. Be a little over the top tactically he would like, but he never actually. Got caught. He was sliced he was, he was good. He was slash the tires of fucking scab trucks would come in. He would be able

01:11:08.549 - 01:11:22.910

to know how he would slash he was young too, right? He was like in his early twenties he was he was he get deported or something for a while or he had to go back to Mexico for he was around a lot at the beginning of

01:11:22.910 - 01:11:38.020

the strike and then he was really, really active at the end and then he was on the negotiating committee. That went in and negotiated with Gil but he was missing during the whole. Oh, early in the strike through the last. He was gone for about a

01:11:38.020 - 01:11:52.140

year. I think he, I don't know if it was just because he was undocumented or something they finally caught him have been undocumented and he hadn't been in the country that long, so it wasn't like amnesty was something that was open to him. Yeah, I think

01:11:52.140 - 01:12:12.109

it could have been he was undocumented actually I think um. I think Manuel actually. Well, you know, lived in his house for a little while at one point at the beginning, um, and I know at the end of the strike he was staying with Chivelo out

01:12:12.109 - 01:12:29.250

in Castroville. Because when the cops busted him, that was the address he gave, you know. Yeah, that was That incident where Shavella was arrested right near the end and everybody stormed the police station and uh. You know, then they went, and I think they went after

01:12:29.250 - 01:12:40.839

Carlos and a bunch of people kind of blocked the police from getting to him and stuff and it was. If you remember any of this stuff and you want to fill in any details, I mean, I was, you know, I was always on the picket line

01:12:40.839 - 01:12:51.959

and you know I would get caught by the police, but they would people would be so supportive. They just come right up to the police. Hey, you have a problem? What are you doing bugging her, you know, like they were like really good. People were really

01:12:51.959 - 01:13:05.520

supportive, like woo. Yeah, you'd like police would walk, the police would walk up to you and there'd be all kinds of people around you and the police, yeah, so that was pretty good that that part was pretty good. I spent a lot of time on picket

01:13:05.520 - 01:13:20.419

lines, you know, during the strike, a lot of time, hours and hours and hours and hours and hours. I'm I'm talking, I was on picket lines so often and you know, I mean, any little time that I wasn't working, that's where I was, you know, that's

01:13:20.419 - 01:13:35.640

what I, that's what I was doing, yeah. So, um, Two things I wanted to ask you about from fairly early in the strike. These are really specific because I. These are parts of the strike that I've already you know what I'm trying to think about, I

01:13:35.640 - 01:13:49.859

think I was just trying to go ahead, go ahead. I think she was saying that she was staying with Shirley Munoz. And Shirley Munoz is somebody who doesn't live in Wattsville right now. I think she lives in Capitola or something like that. Shirley Munoz. And I

01:13:49.859 - 01:14:06.859

think that's what she was saying that she was here for a little while and she was staying with Shirley everyone else, so you just need to figure out. Finding Shirley Munoz. What's your name again? The person she was staying with Shirley Munoz. Shirley Munoz. Shirley Munoz.

01:14:07.890 - 01:14:22.450

M U N O Z. You know how to reach her. I was trying to think of maybe I should try to look her up on Facebook. Would she have her telephone number on Facebook or? Maybe I don't do Facebook. I probably should. I've had a couple

01:14:22.450 - 01:14:37.839

of people track other people down for me by using electronic media, but. Um, I'm I mean I don't, I doubt it. She would be like, I don't, I don't think, I don't think I even have phone number in here, do I? No, I don't think so

01:14:48.790 - 01:14:57.009

because, you know, yeah, it's just this is just businesses and yellow pages resent phone. I know. Well, here's the thing, um, I could try to look her up so I think that's what she might have mentioned to me. She said, you know, I'm like right here.

01:14:57.629 - 01:15:14.790

So I, I'm just so, I'm just so mad at myself because I feel really bad about not being able to call her back. Uh well. I hope she doesn't think that you didn't call her back because you didn't want to accept an apology, you know. Yeah,

01:15:14.899 - 01:15:27.459

I totally don't want her to think that I have no I have nothing. I'm not mad at her. Well, there was a, I mean there was a kind of a, she was fed a couple of years ago, right? It was a kind of celebration of her

01:15:27.459 - 01:15:45.390

and she came back for that. I mean, do you know who set that up or? Uh, I mean, I would think they would know how to get in touch with her. Um, I missed it. Yeah, um. I'm trying to think who would be connected and not

01:15:45.390 - 01:16:01.350

to be able to know, but Truli Munoz, I mean, that's a, he's, she's just an old she's an old friend of mine. Um, I would be connected and that. Because a lot of the people that she was connected with either died or not here anymore, uh,

01:16:01.359 - 01:16:25.310

because that I knew she was pretty connected with. Let's see, I'm trying to think. Um, Uh Let's see, I should be able to come up with something. Nobody else has come up with any names of people. Uh, I, you know, everybody I've talked to, nobody really

01:16:25.310 - 01:16:37.140

knows how to find her, but I probably did not talk the same. I figured you probably knew her better than most of the people I've talked to. Well, I, I knew her pretty good, you know, although you know like we were, we, we, we were not,

01:16:37.310 - 01:16:50.899

we became, she became we became a little bit separate based on the fact that she was, you know, kind of like whatever you, you know, like she was. I guess I guess like you were saying her ego was sort of involved to the point where, you

01:16:50.899 - 01:17:07.049

know, hey, I'm I'm the main woman around here, I didn't say that, but I mean, but she, you know, I'm, I'm the woman you shouldn't, you're not, you can't be, you know, doing what I'm doing, whatever. I don't know if she was a little bit. Um,

01:17:07.930 - 01:17:22.770

And I don't know if you could use the word threatened by me, but she was. She was not in agreement that I. You know, whatever. Did you, I mean, I know you were saying you kind of. I actually lived with her for a while. I remember

01:17:22.770 - 01:17:36.830

you saying that you. of resented Oscar when he first came down here and I felt the same way about Cherie, I guess. Yeah, because you know it was the turf thing too. I hate to say it. It was a little bit of the turf thing. I

01:17:36.830 - 01:17:48.750

hate to say it could have been more sensitive to that. You know who the fuck are you guys that you think you know what to do and how to do everything and who the fuck? You don't live here. We fucking live here. I mean, I've lived

01:17:48.750 - 01:18:00.890

here I'd already lived here quite a long time. Who the fuck are you? You can come here and say that you know how to do everything, that you know how to be with the workers, that you're the one you can be, you know, I'm just like,

01:18:01.020 - 01:18:17.910

like, you know, who the fuck are you guys? Yeah, that was when I when I interview people about it. Um, What I, I, I generally get two responses on that. One is. We should have paid more attention to the people who were already the the local

01:18:17.910 - 01:18:31.689

people in the community who were doing strike support than we should have found a way to work with them on the other side is. We were spread then and our priority was to work with the strikers, you know, everybody else could just sort of do their

01:18:31.689 - 01:18:51.839

thing. You know, but we could only do so much. Our priority was to, you know, build good relationships with, you know, people like Gloria and Shavella and Cuca and whatever, whoever else, you know, the people who worked on with the strikers Committee. And you know. Uh,

01:18:52.589 - 01:19:10.439

I wasn't here. I'm not going to second guess anybody, you know, I'm just trying to make sure no call got into the newspaper in a way that people could enjoy reading. But you know. It does seem to me that. The political differences were not the sort

01:19:10.439 - 01:19:28.459

of things that couldn't have at least been discussed or thrashed out or it's like, OK, let's agree to disagree on this. I think there was a different point of view from people like Frank and and. And John sober and I guess cruz too about the union.

01:19:29.609 - 01:19:49.189

Because You know, I think One of the things that people in the league talked about a lot during that period is we have to keep the the teamsters engaged in this strike. If they cut the strikers loose, nothing, nothing can be done, you know, even if

01:19:49.189 - 01:20:03.839

it's just a shitty little $55 a week checks, you know, and even and that was and it was like. The the whole trick is to try to keep them engaged, keep them involved without letting them take them over and fuck everything up, you know, and it's

01:20:03.839 - 01:20:24.140

a balancing act, and then. Someone like John Silber, I think his view is this is a company union, and he used that phrase to describe the teamsters to me, and our job is to expose them for what they are, so the strikers can kind of. And

01:20:24.439 - 01:20:35.310

which is, you know, I kind of a point of view that I've held myself at other times in my life, you know, and it's the kind of thing you lose when you actually do union work yourself and you realize it's a hell of a lot more

01:20:35.310 - 01:20:59.830

complicated than that. Um But you know, when I was fresh out of college, that's how I thought. Um, And I think there was a political difference there. And to some extent I think Frank kind of. Feels that you know. The union was really, he's got a

01:20:59.830 - 01:21:13.919

much more nuanced view of things. He's a much more sophisticated guy than that, but I think he does feel that basically the union was not to be trusted. That the whole The thing was to try to take the strike outside the bounds of a conventional labor

01:21:13.919 - 01:21:27.870

management dispute and so on, to think outside the box, try things that the union wasn't willing to do, and if you're too busy trying to maintain a decent relationship with the union, you're going to kind of cut yourself off at at the knees or whatever. That's,

01:21:27.879 - 01:21:48.549

I think that's how I understand the political difference that that it was there. But those aren't antagonistic contradictions. They don't need to be anyway, not really. I mean, I agree with Frank's viewpoint. That's that's the viewpoint I believed as well, um. And, and I hear what

01:21:48.549 - 01:22:12.509

you're saying about what they're saying though too. I hear what you're saying about what they're saying too. So Yeah, so in a way it's kind of hard to figure out. You know, I don't know how we could mobilize together each of us thinking we can't do

01:22:12.509 - 01:22:30.319

it 30 years after the fact, you know this is one thing I have to keep. It's absolutely pointless to just sort of. Re-engage these disputes. It doesn't change what happened and actually can get in the way of your understanding it. I mean, so so I could

01:22:30.319 - 01:22:42.040

look at from the point of view that um what they did was maybe good for the union and what we did was really good for the union too. I mean, you know what I'm saying you could look at from the point of view maybe what they

01:22:42.040 - 01:22:57.779

did. To try to keep the officials engaged was might might have been good, but what we did also to, to, to, uh, you know, look outside the box, the union was not gonna do shit about really helping the workers ultimately ever, and we had to fucking

01:22:57.779 - 01:23:10.169

do our, we had to do what we had to do against what the union wanted to do against the union, you know what I'm saying, so I would agree with that one definitely and you know, and what specifically do you think the union failed to do

01:23:10.169 - 01:23:31.560

that it should have done? In the strike. Well, I'm just saying the union the union. I'm not talking about now. I'm talking about joint. I'm not even talking about the guys who came in because they were just kind of clueless really in my sense. They thought

01:23:31.560 - 01:23:58.009

Joe was in PEL for Christ's sake. I mean they, I mean, I just think um. Um, I You know, I mean, I just think that they, they weren't able to think outside of the box. They thought inside the box. I mean they were, you know, your

01:23:58.009 - 01:24:15.240

basic union officials that, you know, OK, there's a strike, you know, we pay the workers for being in the strike and We support the workers and if they want to have a rally that's that's good, you know what I'm saying just, you know, they just, they

01:24:15.240 - 01:24:29.049

weren't able to think about doing anything different than, you know what should have been done that wasn't done or what. Was done but was done without the support. I mean it was a matter of like you know challenging injunction or bringing the other plants out or

01:24:29.049 - 01:24:42.189

what. I mean these are all ideas I mean I don't think you know I mean I don't think that they would have probably given that much of, you know, you know what we did support that wouldn't have never happened with the Teamsters if if if if

01:24:42.450 - 01:24:56.160

if we weren't there and the Teamsters were trying to do it, no. But what you did was like, I mean they raised a lot of money, I guess, you know, and Mac hit up a bunch of the West Coast, you know, Western Conference locals and they

01:24:56.160 - 01:25:10.240

would send checks for a couple 100 bucks, you know, um. Bill Walsh would work with the food. They'd have all those food drives. Lou Gray would send those trucks. I mean they did do some good stuff. Well, we would have a big old fucking semi come

01:25:10.240 - 01:25:26.589

in here with food, and that didn't have to do just with our support committee obviously that was something big. I mean a fucking semi would come on I mean people were working on the stuff. I think the stuff with the evictions is really important um the

01:25:26.720 - 01:25:42.060

the strikers did, which is making sure that when people left town. You know that they stayed in touch so they could contact everybody and bring it back, you know, from Mexico or Texas or they came back they all fucking came back. They voted. It was like

01:25:42.060 - 01:25:56.229

they came from fucking everywhere. I mean, ultimately the strikers had to find work and so they had to, and some of them they couldn't stay, they had to go, but they came back, they came back with the vote. I mean that, that I think of all

01:25:56.229 - 01:26:11.950

of the things that happened during the strike. And you know that's what amazes me the most. And you know that was done not by anybody, that was done by the workers themselves. I mean that was something that the workers did. It's not something that all these

01:26:11.950 - 01:26:32.060

organizers did, the strike support committee, Oscars did, you know, I mean, I think, no, I'm just saying, but they were strikers. I'm just saying I'm just saying people who I'm just saying it happened because of the. Strikers themselves. I'm saying. I'm saying that's what I'm telling

01:26:32.060 - 01:26:47.950

you. It did not happen because we in the support committee, us, you know, white people, whatever, or other people, you know, really tried to make sure that workers would come back, or the Teamsters officials worked on trying to get workers coming back for the vote, the

01:26:47.950 - 01:27:10.779

Teamster officials or whoever that was the strikers themselves. That did that. The strikers themselves did that. I fully agree. So I'm just saying, and that was pretty incredible. What happened was pretty damn incredible teams could not have done that. No, nobody did it except the strikers

01:27:10.779 - 01:27:28.729

and then you talk about striker. I'm talking about strikers are the ones that did that. The strikers did that. I mean, and that was a pretty incredible thing when that happened, because for me like it was like. And it was like No, I, I know, I

01:27:28.729 - 01:27:49.029

think that was when I realized that, yeah, yes, well, the, the, I mean this is, you know. This is one of the things that Joe said it's like. People were working on different parts of it independently of each other. And what's really significant is that. They

01:27:49.029 - 01:28:01.910

fit together, you know, they all kind of came together in a good way at the end of the day. Um, but people weren't always talking to each other. They weren't sharing, they were always coordinating their efforts. But people were making contributions in different kinds of ways,

01:28:01.930 - 01:28:14.399

and that's why he actually was. Glad that I was doing this. This is, you know, maybe you can, the dialogue that didn't happen at the time. Maybe we can have it now, like, um, up to a point that's true. So I want to ask you about

01:28:14.399 - 01:28:33.660

two things that I've been trying to write about the last couple of weeks and I'm confused about. One is. Frank and Joe both told me that when the October 6th, you know, that this, the first solidarity Day demonstration was organized. You know, Joe pretty much got

01:28:33.660 - 01:28:58.189

stuck with responsibility for the whole thing. And um. Was trying to do way too much in my opinion. Um, And uh He and Frank apparently met and decided. We're gonna have the rally really, really short. According to Frank, Joe was the only speaker. At the rally

01:28:58.759 - 01:29:15.560

I know that's not true because at the, the, the, the, the footage of the rally that in John Silver's film, there's a woman speaking with a tall be bespectacled guy translating. Uh, and Joe John does not remember who she was. And you know what, there's really

01:29:15.560 - 01:29:30.080

a wonderful woman that I'm thinking about that might have been at the rally and just, and what is her name and she was really a great striker too, really wonderful. You don't know who she was. John doesn't remember who she was. You remember the movie well

01:29:30.080 - 01:29:47.549

enough to know. I just remember she said at one point, this is a lie. You know, I know exactly who she was. I remember her face. I remember everything about her. I remember everything about her. And in fact, um. I think at one rally, I mean,

01:29:47.629 - 01:30:08.790

I might have translated for her. I think maybe I did. I think maybe I was even translating for her and she was speaking at another. Um, And if you can and she, she was really kind of pretty too, kind of a somewhat pretty, she was kind

01:30:08.790 - 01:30:24.600

of a pretty, yeah, she was a pretty woman. She was good looking. Yeah, she had long hair. Yeah, she was good looking, yeah, good. You don't know who she was or where she worked or was she in TDU because you know I think what I got

01:30:24.600 - 01:30:39.160

from Frank and Joe is that we only wanted TDU speakers at the rally. The union was not cooperating with us and putting it on, so we were going to do it, and this is what Frank now considers to have been a major mistake. to restrict the

01:30:39.160 - 01:30:53.819

rally because you know we had all these supporters coming in from out of town. You have to at least acknowledge them and thank them. You know, think what. People for showing up, giving support, you know, you know, OK, so maybe it makes the rally a little

01:30:53.819 - 01:31:07.910

more boring than you'd like it to be, but it's important to acknowledge people when they. Sent bus loads in from the organization. I mean, late 90 was there, the farm workers there, a bunch of me there, you know, I remember a bunch of people from Chinese

01:31:07.910 - 01:31:28.270

Progressive Association came down. I don't know that one, but you know I know the farm, yeah, I mean there were a bunch of outside groups. I think there was uh groups all the way from. I don't know, but don't freen their groups. No, I, I remember,

01:31:28.330 - 01:31:45.029

you know, that was that first rally and. I guess Manuel uh had just come back from the TDU convention with Gloria, and they had passed a hat and raised a couple of grand there and Manuel trying to get up on the stage and. To say we

01:31:45.029 - 01:31:58.229

were just back from the TDU convention. We raised $2000 and I guess Joe got paranoid and tossed him off the stage. Why did Joe get paranoid? Because he, he was really worried that the rally was going to get out of control. I'm telling you what he

01:31:58.229 - 01:32:10.310

told me now that every little ragtag group from Berkeley would come down and want a piece of the action and that people are going to get bored or frustrated or angry and they, you know, or maybe somebody would come down with their own agenda and they

01:32:10.310 - 01:32:25.109

hype people up and then do something and Somebody would get hurt, you know, because they were defying the injunction and people really wanted to march and you know, wow, that's too bad because that sounds like an important thing. Yeah, no, it was, it was I didn't

01:32:25.109 - 01:32:40.890

know that about Joe. Joe is sort of defensive when he talks about it. You know, because I didn't want to sort of turn the thing over to the Berkeley left or sort of the San Francisco left. um, I mean those things make you nervous, yeah, Frank,

01:32:41.120 - 01:32:57.259

I mean to me it's a rookie mistake. Uh, To Frank, it's an aspect of like the mistake that he feels TDU made during that first period just trying to sort of play the role of the union. Instead of, you know, Getting a strikers leadership group together,

01:32:57.299 - 01:33:12.350

which happened I guess the following week, um. But Frank offered an opinion, and I guess I have to run this by you so you could tell me if he's full of shit or not. He said he thought that basically the CP wanted it that way. They

01:33:12.350 - 01:33:24.149

didn't want any other left groups represented because Joe was in the was close to the CP. You just told me earlier today he never joined, he never joined, but that he was their spokesperson and it would make it look like they were in leadership if he

01:33:24.149 - 01:33:42.859

was the only one who spoke. That's, that was Frank's take on it. And he's speculating admittedly. But from the expression on your face, I think you think that's bonk. I don't think so. I would, I don't think so. You know, sometimes it would Kind of a

01:33:42.859 - 01:33:54.939

little bit pissed me off about the CP in that they would give Joe so much kudos and I would think to myself, he's not even a fucking a member, and I'm a member and I've done all this stuff and what are they giving him all the

01:33:54.939 - 01:34:10.770

kudos for? I would just get a little tiny face out there, but I mean they gave him a lot of kudos and you know the CP gave him a lot of kudos, you know what I mean? I mean. And I don't know, it just felt like,

01:34:10.850 - 01:34:21.930

you know, God, and I'm in the CP and just because he has me and my husband or whatever, they're giving him so many kudos and what about me? I'm doing a lot of work here, you know what I'm saying what about me? And I'm a female.

01:34:22.009 - 01:34:37.660

I mean, I just felt like it was almost sexist to me. I mean that was my opinion was a little bit, it was a little bit sexist of the CP. That's what I felt there was no organizational decision to, you know. No, and it wasn't just

01:34:37.660 - 01:34:52.720

TD it wasn't just Joe and I know Jose spoke at the rally because uh. Bob Johnson, I guess, wrote, wrote up the rally for, I guess the. The Santa Cruz Sentinel or whatever and quoted the speech that Jose made, and I know that there was some

01:34:52.720 - 01:35:05.979

woman or other who spoke there was I know exactly what you're talking about and what if I can just remember her name and she tried to come to me. Yeah, no, I know exactly who you're talking about you know you've got my number. If you think

01:35:05.979 - 01:35:22.149

of her name, call me. Yeah, I know I've been trying to get to the bottom of this. I know that that rally. Was really I think it was at that point. That some of the strikers like Gina got pissed off at TDU and pissed off at

01:35:22.149 - 01:35:38.830

Joe. Uh, Gloria got very pissed off. Yeah, Gloria had her own thing, but I mean for me, Glory was kind of like sometimes a little bit woo out there to me. That was just my opinion, yeah, um, be more specific if you can. Well, I mean,

01:35:39.500 - 01:35:57.839

I mean, I just thought, you know, she, let's see. Um, let me think that she. Well, she was for me like a little bit egotistical too about you know her role egotistical she saw herself as a leader, no question, absolutely, but she saw herself as maybe

01:35:57.839 - 01:36:20.520

the leader, you know, the leader of, you know, she thought herself as kind of the leader of, you know. The committees or whatever. So, and so I actually, you know. I hate to say it, but I wasn't always that impressed with her, to be honest with

01:36:20.520 - 01:36:39.819

you, just to be honest with you, oops. I heard her speak, you know, during the strike several times and she was. You had a damn good platform presence, no question about that, and Just kind of schlepping around town with her, you know, talking to different people.

01:36:41.950 - 01:37:09.759

Uh I'm struck by how sharp she is. You know, uh, politically as well as just intellectually, you know, I guess maybe that I missed out, I just missed out on that one. But anyway, uh, but you know, I mean. She wasn't the only person. Up there,

01:37:09.830 - 01:37:29.279

you know, capable of. Providing leadership. Yeah, no, she wasn't for example, I would say for example Esperanza, she is so humble. I mean she's like, she was quite a leader and very humble, you know, which Gloria was not. It's interesting you know Gloria is not humble,

01:37:29.439 - 01:37:46.950

no question about that was humble. Her role, she felt she was very humble, kind of a person. How and when she got involved and stuff, I mean, I, you don't see her in the movie until. You know, they go to their house and her husband does

01:37:46.950 - 01:37:59.549

all the talking basically, you know, and he, he makes that crack about I got to keep an eye on my kids they'll fall through the holes in the floor. Yeah, yeah, well, he's he, well, her husband's a very humorous guy, and I've always wanted because I've

01:37:59.549 - 01:38:19.520

been really close to the family, he's humorous, he's funny, so he was a good one to talk from that point of view because he's really entertaining, funny guy. Esperanza is not that's not her thing, being funny. Uh, but she, I, I just feel like, um. She

01:38:19.520 - 01:38:35.169

was just really right and she, she, I, I'm just said she's very humble. She's not like the leader that he stand up. I'm a leader. I'm this and that. She was not that way whatsoever. She was low key. She was not the sort of person who

01:38:35.169 - 01:38:52.970

would go on to that meeting on October 15th where they were selecting the striker committee and offered her name up. She, she, she was humble. No, not particularly, she's humble. I, you know. Here again, The way the strikers Committee is portrayed in the movie is it's

01:38:52.970 - 01:39:11.740

like this. Alliance of the teamster officials and the more moderate strikers. And that it was essentially divisive thing that was intended to isolate TDU. Um, I agree with that. I that there was an alliance with the union officials and the more moderate strikers, you think so?

01:39:11.899 - 01:39:29.080

Yes. Hm. Well, I probably shouldn't argue with you. I don't agree with you though. Um, no, I mean some of them were, they were all over the map politically, I think the people who were picked, I think were the people who were regarded as. Capable of

01:39:29.080 - 01:39:45.250

being good organizers, good spokespeople who had the, the kind of particular skills that the rank and I'm saying for example Chavelo Moreno was really aligned. He was he's definitely moderate, you know, and and and you were talking about Glory being too arrogant. He was too modest.

01:39:46.029 - 01:40:00.779

But he was moderate in terms of his, he was not very political whatsoever and he was and he was closer to the officials. He became very close to the officials, I guess when he was a BA all those years, you know, but I think I know

01:40:00.779 - 01:40:21.450

why he was elected is because people trusted him. You know, because he was. Uh They knew if he was in charge of the hardship, but I, I just do, I, I, I actually do believe that the striking committee was. I do totally believe that they were

01:40:21.450 - 01:40:41.720

the more moderate people and not, you know, would you, would you describe Gloria that way? I, I do actually. Sergio hated her guts and she had no love for him either. Sergio Lopez, oh, well, I, you know, when she was running for. President, you know, you

01:40:41.720 - 01:40:58.140

know, you lecture, you ought to put a beauty parlor in the union hall. It was this big line. You know, Well, she was, I mean, because you know her blonde hair is dyed and I didn't think it was. I mean she has blonde hair the whole

01:40:58.140 - 01:41:11.850

time, so her blonde hair and she wore lots of makeup, lots of stuff, and she told me that she got hired, you know, when she was 15 years old, you put on makeup, they think you're an adult that she said that's fine because I just had

01:41:11.850 - 01:41:29.790

to hide when Mrs. Conso came around because she knew makeup. Yeah, when she saw it she Catherine Conso was the plant manager, you know, before her husband died, I guess, and the kid took over and You know she said I could get away with it, you

01:41:29.790 - 01:41:44.000

know, being a teenager working in that place, being underage, as long as Mrs. Conseil didn't see me. Because she knew enough about makeup to know that I was trying to make myself look older. You know, oh wow, that's interesting that that was, you know, oh wow,

01:41:44.109 - 01:42:00.459

that's funny because she was coming around I would kind of. Make myself scarce. Oh, that's interesting. Wow, that's different. Yeah, she was working there when she was 15. So yeah, no, I have my friend Yolanda Nevaro, she, she got into the plant when she was young,

01:42:00.540 - 01:42:15.549

but she never put makeup on. I don't know how she figured out how to do it, but she, she, she was working in the plant when they were just. So desperate for workers. Yeah, I, I and it wasn't because she put on makeup. She, she's not

01:42:15.549 - 01:42:29.910

a makeup person kind of person that, I think so she, but she, she started really super young too, but I just think, you know, I think Lydia was probably underage when she started working there. All those women who were hired like in the early 60s, you

01:42:29.910 - 01:42:45.990

know, probably a lot of them were just like teenagers. And you know I don't think Gloria had to put on makeup. I have a hard time believing that. I think she put on makeup because she liked it. That's what she wants to do and that's what

01:42:45.990 - 01:43:05.970

she's always liked to do. She's always been that way. So I I doubt the whole idea that she was doing that in order to look. Oh no, no, no, I think it was just it was. She would Uh, If she was trying to think of a

01:43:05.970 - 01:43:20.240

strategy for how to get a job. And to pass herself off as an adult. That would be the strategy she would pick, put it that way, you know. Well, it wouldn't be a strategy because that's what she liked to look at doing it anyway, yeah, that

01:43:20.240 - 01:43:37.040

wasn't her strategy. That's what she liked how she liked to look. That's what she was. She would have gone in there already looking like that anyways, even if it wasn't her strategy, but I'd say she was a moderate person too. I would say moderate and and

01:43:37.220 - 01:43:55.979

and and I think she just went back and forth because I just think as she felt um more. As it was more important for her leadership, I do think she, she, she moved a little way from being so moderate, but yeah, I, I do actually think

01:43:55.979 - 01:44:12.410

she was one of the moderate people. What did she do that? Apart from how she looked and you know when you concluded about her personality, what did she do that in terms of the role she played, specific things she did that that you would characterize as

01:44:12.410 - 01:44:32.129

moderate. Well, I mean, I just, well, I think. I mean, I think she, she supported what the officials. wanted to do. I think she, she, she, she, she, I think she was supporting of, she was supportive, she was supportive of them. I think she was always

01:44:32.129 - 01:44:50.609

pretty much supportive of them. I think, but I think um she. She also. Needed to show that she was not like that too, so I think she was in and out. I think I think she was in and out, in and out being a little bit

01:44:50.609 - 01:45:09.359

left, moderate left, moderate. I think she was going back and forth. I think she went back and forth a little bit. Once again, I mean I'm trying to think if there was a particular stand that she took. Um, I'm just trying to think. I think she

01:45:09.359 - 01:45:24.370

did take a stand. I'm just trying to I mean I think at the end, you know, when, when they negotiated that agreement, you know, they were she and Carlos and Trevelo and Cuca, they were all. Uh, on that negotiating committee and none of them picked up

01:45:24.370 - 01:45:42.229

on. The significance of the fact that they'd be treated as new hires when they went back to work so that part timers would not have any health coverage, you know, nobody picked up on that except Joe. Um But the negotiating committee didn't, um, I think once

01:45:42.229 - 01:45:59.770

they realized what the situation was. You know, It was obvious they couldn't continue to recommend that settlement to people. Well, Shavello, I think, was a little slower on the uptake. Yeah, but you know Carlos, I think, you know what, we're not ready to vote on this

01:45:59.770 - 01:46:16.450

yet. Let's, uh, let's, uh, send it back, you send us back the table. Well, Carlos was always a little bit more radicals, he was, he was Mexican Mexican, he was, he was, he was Carlos was not, but you know he was not moderate, but he was

01:46:16.450 - 01:46:36.279

on that negotiating, but he, he wasn't what you might call moderate, not him, he's portrayed that way in the movie. He's portrayed as a moderate. Yeah. You know, um, sort of hemming and hawing and you know Esperanza making this fiery speech and Esperanza Contreras making this

01:46:36.279 - 01:46:53.200

big fiery speech, you know what the hell we go on strike for, you know, who gains from this, you know, he was a fiery and and and so forth and then he cuts to Chavello and Carlos talking to Sergio off in the corner like gee, what

01:46:53.200 - 01:47:07.399

are we gonna do now kind of thing. He doesn't actually, you don't hear what they're saying. But that's the implication of these guys were sort of in the union's pocket and they got caught with their pants down, you know, the workers revolted against them. I mean,

01:47:07.439 - 01:47:20.939

that's, that's the way John sees it to some extent that's the way Frank sees it too. That the Carlos got into the union they all they all were kind of because they were on the negotiating committee they were sort of sucked into the union and they

01:47:20.939 - 01:47:36.359

were pushing the union line. Um, that which is a a line that cruise uses too, I think in. That interview I was telling you about with the, you know, the Santa Cruz student did just the people on the striker committee were handpicked because they followed the

01:47:36.359 - 01:47:56.509

union line. I mean, I think they wanted to pick people that would follow the union line. I don't think they in 100% were able to do it, but I'm just saying they did. That was the point they they were elected. I mean, who handed them there

01:47:56.509 - 01:48:08.870

was there was a meeting of 500 people. I don't think they necessarily exercised the best judgment who they picked. I mean there were some people elected who clearly did not belong. You know, in that position and they flaked out almost as soon as they were elected.

01:48:09.430 - 01:48:26.379

That guy Arnold Hearer, nobody ever heard from him again, you know, um, you know, uh. I think Henry Sallis was was uh. I mean, granted, he was one of the original contacts at the beginning and was trying to get something going, but he wound up running

01:48:26.379 - 01:48:44.069

on Sergio slate. Um, being a buddy of Chivelo's after Chivelo's elected business agent. I mean, I think they picked people who had had the run of the plant. Whose jobs took them around the plant who knew the most people who had some English skills so they

01:48:44.069 - 01:48:59.979

could deal with the shit. I mean that was important, um. Jim Brock is the opinion if you knew English, you probably weren't going to be as militant as the people who were just fresh up from Mexico and had nothing to lose. To me that's a little

01:48:59.979 - 01:49:25.600

too pat because you know she was a moderate or a union stooge or anything, you know, I don't know I don't know if I, I mean he's I think when he says that's theory. Yeah. You know, I think she probably shaped his politics a lot you

01:49:25.600 - 01:49:44.049

can kind of tell. how people talk. She was a pretty good that's cute. That's good. Oh yeah, because he did, you know, she definitely came from Mexico, his wife, and I think she probably had a huge impact on his, you know, he's this white guy married

01:49:44.049 - 01:50:01.040

to this undocumented woman, you know. He thought he knew all his shit because he was a lefty and she knew more than he did. That's good. Wow, that's that's good. That's good that he realize that he thinks that way. That's that's good that he really thinks

01:50:01.040 - 01:50:20.970

that way. I like her too. No, she, I was very close to her, you know, and I really thought, but she was also very what you might call a very sweet person. She was sweet. She wasn't like out there, you know, lefty, this, that. She was

01:50:20.970 - 01:50:37.060

sweet. But she had her point of view, but she was sweet, very sweet person, you know, you might say she was a very sweet person. I think And she was really dedicated and under you just knew that she was there, that she understood the issues that

01:50:37.060 - 01:50:53.129

she was there, but she wasn't like a person who vocalized it all the time or this and that. She was, she was sweet, very, you know, very low key, sweet, and she did understand the issues really well, you know the people who shoot their mouths off.

01:50:55.750 - 01:51:08.629

Are not necessarily going to be the ones who are the most solid, you know, I think what was impressive what really won the strike wasn't the people who got up and made fiery speeches. It was the ones who were just steadfast. Who would support their fellow

01:51:08.629 - 01:51:23.069

strikers in the jam. I mean, that was Esperanza that I'm telling you about and then Esperanza Contreras, she was more fiery, but she was there though too. She was pretty cool. I mean, I, I, I, I can't, you know, you know, you talked about in great

01:51:23.069 - 01:51:34.575

detail about how fighting with the cops and how proud she was of her 15 year old daughters. The cops away from him, you know, I mean, so she was a little bit more fiery, but she was good. I mean Esperanza was really good, but I'm just

01:51:34.575 - 01:51:53.990

saying like Esperanza Torres was not the ra ra ra but she was there. I mean she was like quite the leader I believe that she was, but I would say she was, you know. But she was humble. That's the only word I could describe her humble

01:51:53.990 - 01:52:14.709

just describing her personality, what kind of things did she do? Tell me, give me some examples of things that she did that were impressive to you. I mean just impressive, you know her on the picket line. She was just right there with people, getting people there

01:52:14.709 - 01:52:31.629

getting going out, making sure people, you know, I'm just just even on the picket line, she was really right there and to make sure people were, you know, you know what I'm saying? Do you know, I mean, there were two meetings that I'm thinking about. One

01:52:31.629 - 01:52:47.770

was that one on the 15th of October where the strikers was selected. And I wanted to ask Videlia this too. Did, I mean it was a striker's only meeting, so you know Joe couldn't have gone. John Silber couldn't have been there with his camera, you know,

01:52:47.939 - 01:53:06.779

um. But Jose could have been there. Uh, Fidelia could have been there, Esperanza. Uh, Torres could have been there. I mean, Esperanza Contreras was there and. I said, Well, how did you decide who you wanted on that striker? She says, Oh, we picked the people who

01:53:06.779 - 01:53:26.859

are smartest. Is that what she said what she said. You know, it was like kind of well I'll vote for him for class president because he's a straight A student you know that that was her, but you know it's like that's so to me that that

01:53:26.859 - 01:53:45.649

makes me think that they didn't pick people who had like really great leadership qualities per se, you know, or really right there people and they weren't the strikers. In fact, they clearly weren't most of them had. I mean this is something that um. That's Jim made

01:53:45.649 - 01:53:57.979

an issue of it's like they weren't really and and Cruz said those people on the strikers, they didn't represent the strikers. They weren't like the strikers at all. They were all better paid workers. They all spoke English. They were all assimilated, da da da da da

01:53:57.979 - 01:54:27.839

da. Well, I mean. I'm thinking now, um. This idea that the people who rise to leadership should be. Yeah, the real salt of the earth types. Um, It doesn't always work out that way in real life, you know, it's a kind of an idealistic conception of

01:54:27.839 - 01:54:43.509

leadership and There are all sorts of ways you can assert leadership without sort of putting yourself in a position where you're responsible for chairing the meetings, raising the funds, speaking at rallies, you know, doing all the kind of stuff that's expected of people in leadership. Um,

01:54:46.020 - 01:55:07.109

You need people who can do those things. You also need people to do the the quiet stuff. Um, Chivelo, I actually think probably excelled at doing the quiet stuff. Um, when he became a big spokesperson. Yeah, he was a very self-effacing guy, and I think once

01:55:07.109 - 01:55:21.890

he got into the union, he Kind of let the union dictate his politics for him, you know, Oscar even says that, you know. But you know what a sweet man. Yeah, yeah, I think he was a sweet man. I mean, you know, when I interviewed Esperanza,

01:55:21.970 - 01:55:33.729

she said, you know, we came from the same town and his family was very wealthy. I was afraid. I was intimidated by him at first, but once the strike started and then she started to cry, you know, it's like, you know, I came up to him

01:55:33.729 - 01:55:48.799

and I hugged him. I realized, you know what the class differences back in Mexico didn't matter so much. We're out here suffering together, you know, that was the way she described him. That's that's that's totally great. That's great. That's good for her. I think he would

01:55:48.799 - 01:56:11.299

always say, you know. The women are the ones who are holding the strike together. You know, um, he said that again and again and again and Wasn't that common a sentiment among the guys in those plants, you know, um. I think Joe came to that conclusion.

01:56:12.109 - 01:56:25.819

Uh, Frank came to that conclusion. A lot of people came to that conclusion, but I think. Chivelo kind of understood it right off the bat and it was given in the background he was from it was much more remarkable for him, and I think that's why

01:56:25.819 - 01:56:46.620

people trusted him to. You know, he didn't act like a big shot. He didn't, no, no, not, you know, never, never acted like you know he was handling this this fund about $12,000 and then deciding who got help with their rent, who got help with their

01:56:46.620 - 01:56:59.410

bills and stuff like that. I mean it was like. That's the kind of power that can truly corrupt people or at least make people think you're corrupt. And as far as I know there were never any issues about how he handled it. I don't think so.

01:57:00.259 - 01:57:28.709

I don't think so. So I mean that's Yeah, he was no revolutionary. Uh uh. I realized that about him, you know, after I interviewed him. But you know, he was a match, as they say back where I come from. Um. You know, Gloria, I think her

01:57:28.709 - 01:57:51.310

politics are much more left, you know, um, than his. I'm I'm not even sure about that. I'm not even sure I mean. I, I think she I think she was OK, I think she was just capable of understanding more how to think about things and he

01:57:51.310 - 01:58:12.049

was, I mean, just, you know, just more. Uh You know, more Well, I mean, you might even see more assimilated. You know, he was pretty sophisticated politically put it that way. I mean I think but more assimilated to this country and stuff like that than he

01:58:12.700 - 01:58:29.520

that he totally was. Yeah, I mean. I know what I mean, you know, she came here when she was what 1415 years old, which is kind of you know, her dad was a bracera who basically worked himself to death. And I think I told you when

01:58:29.520 - 01:58:47.589

I went to interview Anita Contreras, you know, she took me down to the. Old folks I'm over there on Green Valley and the convalescent hospital and. You know, as we were leaving, she was She's my father died in this place. And you know one reason she

01:58:47.589 - 01:59:03.629

went to work was younger she did because she and her brother. Is she, is she at the Hopi on Arthur Road or where's the one? Is she in the one that's on Arthur Road? Oh, it's, it's, I think it's on Valley that I'm a little vague

01:59:03.629 - 01:59:23.939

I did. I still haven't got the hang of the geography of this town, but um, yeah, anyway, that's where Anita is and um you know a lot of it was tough. He was tough interviewing her. I mean, I kind of felt like a shit. Um, she

01:59:23.939 - 01:59:41.529

dutifully tried to answer my questions, but you know. Her problems are so much more overwhelming and like reminding her, you know, some people like to remember this stuff. Some people don't like to remember it. Some people just like it's it's in the dim past. Um, you

01:59:41.529 - 01:59:58.270

never know what you're gonna get when you interview people. I mean, I think Gloria Betancourt became more sophisticated even after the strike, you know, she probably did. Not, not, not, not as much during the strike, she just became more sophisticated after the strike because you know,

01:59:58.390 - 02:00:12.870

and she was, she still could be in leadership roles because she was involved and she was still able to, you know, whatever. I don't know. I think she just became probably more sophisticated maybe after the strike than she was. I don't know um I mean I.

02:00:17.729 - 02:00:35.319

During the strike I knew her mainly as, you know, an orator, you know, I heard as an orator, I heard her speak, you know, um, more recently, you know, of course all this time has gone by. And you know what she says. I find makes a

02:00:35.319 - 02:00:55.939

lot of sense to me, you know. Now you talk to people. Oh, now when you've been able to interview her, yeah, yeah, and even when I'm not interviewing her because she's taking me around town introducing me to people, you know. Um Esperanza Contreras, uh. Margarita Paramo,

02:00:56.069 - 02:01:16.470

you know, um. Emma Jimenez, do you know her? Emma Jimenez, yeah, yeah, I know who she is, yeah. I mean who another sweet thing you know she's a. Um, And then she took me by the ice cream parlor and kind of got me going with Esther

02:01:16.470 - 02:01:32.859

and she left and I sat there eating ice cream and listening to Esther talk. So, you know, I mean I may be prejudiced because she's been a huge help to me, you know, in the research. Gloria I mean it's just she knows everybody and you know

02:01:32.859 - 02:02:00.569

she knows who I should talk to and that kind of thing, you know, but um. I know that. Well, I don't know. I, you know, I, I think. I don't think the strikers Committee was elected to fulfill any particular political agenda, and I don't think people

02:02:00.569 - 02:02:19.740

voted for them on that basis. Um, I think the TDU people could have gone in there and. You know, people like like Esperanza Torres or Fedelia or Jose Lopez with them, they could have gone in there and. You know, put their names out there and you

02:02:19.740 - 02:02:38.939

know if they had had enough of a following they would have been elected. There's no reason why it couldn't have happened. Um But I don't know who was at that meeting, you know, uh, or who, or how that vote was taken and, you know, the only

02:02:38.939 - 02:02:52.109

people who know are the people who are actually. Strikers, so I I was hoping you might be able to tell me, you know, and she, she wasn't able to tell you, um, well, I, I wanna ask her again. The first time I talked to her she's

02:02:52.109 - 02:03:08.220

kind of. Let her rap, you know, talk about her struggles with her husband and, you know, going on those scab hunts, you know, and you know, uh. You know, the kind of stuff that people talk about and that that was fairly early in the research, so

02:03:08.220 - 02:03:20.740

I wasn't asking specific questions about this meeting or that meeting a lot of times I do that and people know what the hell I'm talking about, you know, and they're asking, I'm asking to dredge up memories of stuff that happened. Half a lifetime that's a long

02:03:20.740 - 02:03:39.259

time ago you know but anyways, yeah, try to talk to her again. I'm I'm gonna try to talk to her again. I'm gonna ask her because you know she strikes me as somebody who had the smarts, you know, to be in a leadership role. She actually

02:03:39.259 - 02:03:57.490

Frank told me that he thinks. When he stepped down as the head of TDU. Probably it would have been better if she had been one of the co-chairs, you know, instead of picking Joan and Jose to do it. Because you know we just didn't understand how

02:03:57.490 - 02:04:13.919

important the woman question was. Exactly, yeah, the, the women were the head of the Iran gravitated toward the most angry militant, you know, tough, you know, kick ass kinds of guys because probably because that's that's the way you had to. To do to get respect in

02:04:13.919 - 02:04:34.259

Berkeley, you know, you never really, yeah, well, free speech, People's Park, you know, you know about the Oakland 7 conspiracy trial, you know it's like um. Nixon would do something outrageous and a big mob would mass on telegraph I would smash every store window in sight.

02:04:34.910 - 02:04:52.899

You know, I mean, it was. I saw it happen and looking back I'd say it was pointless and childish, but that's how you got your cred as a militant, you know, you're willing to sort of break the rules, or at least break the windows, you know.

02:04:53.149 - 02:05:05.419

I mean, to be honest with you, when you overlook the strike, there wasn't really a lot of that. Only on that, you know, well, there was a there was a couple of window breaking stuff and I remember that thing on the 17th that really got out

02:05:05.419 - 02:05:19.620

of control. There's a little bit of that, but I'm just saying overall there wasn't too much of that. Frank actually told me that, you know. Joe called him up I guess from the union hall. You know, when the rioting was going on down on Main Street

02:05:19.620 - 02:05:30.620

and said, Frank, it's just completely out of control. It's like they're they're taking, they're trying to, there's an ambulance here trying to take away somebody who's hurt and they're throwing rocks at the ambulance, and Frank said, What do you want me to do about it, Joe?

02:05:31.020 - 02:05:47.029

You know, what am I supposed to do? Yeah, Joe was just frustrated need somebody to talk to. Well, Joe wound up taking the rap for the whole thing, you know, he got called on the carpet by the Teamsters, you know. I think he, I think Chuck

02:05:47.029 - 02:06:03.600

Knack wrapped his knuckles. That was that. I mean they had to do something to kind of dissociate the union from what happened or. You know, they're gonna do it how about a TDU's blame them. Yeah, I know, he was like the sacrificial lamb, and you know,

02:06:03.689 - 02:06:21.459

plus he had kind of played a big role in organizing those demos, you know. Um, and I think. You know, he went to Sergio and said, look, I know. I don't want the unions asked to be in a swing over this. Uh, you know, you want

02:06:21.459 - 02:06:34.740

to jack me up, go ahead, you know, I'll take the rap, but I, I just want you to know that we didn't plan any of this stuff. You know, uh, it was the police that made it happen and so forth and so on. The police that

02:06:34.740 - 02:06:46.620

you mean well, the police, no the police wouldn't, you know, they broke it up, uh, they broke up the rally. They wouldn't let people get near the plant. They threw tear gas into the union, you know, I mean they were really, they were nasty, so people

02:06:46.620 - 02:07:02.689

sort of some people that sort of went went down to Main Street and went nuts and it was stupid, you know, uh, it was really. You had in a lot of ways I in the sense I got a pretty supportive community. I mean, even the register

02:07:02.689 - 02:07:19.250

and I was amazed. I mean the register was standing there. The registered i was like amazing, to be honest with you. I mean, it was like, you know, I mean here the police were like pretty anti-worker, but the fucking register, I can't say this, the register

02:07:19.250 - 02:07:36.970

was right there. They were like right there editorial I saw that that Frank has in his archives. I think it was, it was after shortly after, um, you know, Gloria's husband got busted for throwing that. needing that firebomb at the bus. They said, you know, to

02:07:36.970 - 02:07:53.450

the strikers, you know, community, you can't expect the community to tolerate violence and vandalism. To the plant owners, you've got every imaginable kind of tax break from from the people of this community. You know, you always come hat in hand begging to be, you know, asking

02:07:53.450 - 02:08:07.339

for special favors, asking to get a clearance on this or that environmental regulation. You always say. You justify it on the grounds that you're providing good jobs. When you're not providing good jobs now. What you're doing is you're costing us a fortune in police protection, you

02:08:07.339 - 02:08:21.359

know, maybe you need to consider your responsibility to the community. They actually said this and this was like right, you know, in October of '85 when that damned injunction was still in force and people were being busted right and left, you know, I mean, I. For

02:08:21.359 - 02:08:44.549

a small town newspaper in, you know, an Anglo town. sort of dealing with the Mexican majority that's being kept down constantly, that was a fairly remarkable. I don't know who wrote those editorials, but um. I was impressed. Yeah, well, the person that used to own the

02:08:44.549 - 02:08:59.890

podonian, I think was it back in the days where the oars owned it. Frank Orr, who was a guy who lived right downtown, and I, I even know his house that he used to live in right down on Beach Street, um, East Beach Street, they were

02:08:59.890 - 02:09:20.020

like really a very good. And they were like a really a community oriented family and they they owned the newspaper and they were really there with the community. I mean in a lot of ways. I think it was when Frank Or still owned the paper, I'm

02:09:20.020 - 02:09:42.790

pretty sure they um. I forgot. Starting to fade, I'm afraid. Um, So it's OK, good interview, but after about 3 hours I start to lose it. I should probably, you've got other stuff to do to me. We can talk again, I guess I can come back

02:09:42.790 - 02:10:06.319

down. You know, um, I wanted to ask. One other question I think about this has to do with Joe's campaign for um. Business agent and I did, I did pretty much his campaign. I did his campaign because I was already, you know, working for the union.

02:10:06.399 - 02:10:17.430

I knew how to do being an organizer and Joe, to be honest with you, is not an organizer either. I mean, you know, he was there for the union and he was really, and he was really good on so many issues and he's really a smart

02:10:17.600 - 02:10:36.470

and he's super smart. Joe is smart. He's very smart um. Oh, I, I So, just to continue, you did this campaign. Um, I did, I pretty much did his campaign, yeah, he ran kind of an independent campaign rather than simply doing a TDU slay thing, and

02:10:36.470 - 02:10:50.629

I know he did. He told me that Frank kind of jacked him up for that, that, you know, Frank told me he was being a little self-aggrandizing and stuff. He thought Joe was that Frank did not approve of the leaflet that that that that trifle flyer

02:10:50.629 - 02:11:07.189

that I guess you designed. I know. Joe told me that he did not like the leaflet the te you put out because it put so much emphasis on King. You know, um, I've got a copy of that one too it just sort of said uh. King

02:11:07.189 - 02:11:21.399

was at that point was beating a dead horse, but the assumption is just like in Mexico, you know, you know, where the union leadership position just sort of handed on from crony to crony to crony, and you know this has been a corrupt cozy with the

02:11:21.399 - 02:11:40.339

bosses kind of a union, and it's going to continue being that way and so forth and so on, and I guess Jose was. Um At the top of the ticket, you know, running against Gloria and Leon Ellis. But the only other Joe was mentioned, but he

02:11:40.339 - 02:11:57.790

was actually not running specifically as a TDU candidate and he was endorsed. Two people from the people slate were endorsed, I guess Eddie Torres and one other person. I can't remember that, yeah, and then the 5th person on the slate was um. Enrique You know, uh,

02:11:57.939 - 02:12:17.450

Esperanza's husband, who ran for trustee, but you had only 5 people and really. If you don't count Joe and that, only 2 of them were running as TDU candidates. One was Jose and one was uh Enrique. Um And There was so much emphasis put on, oh

02:12:17.450 - 02:12:34.200

here we're going to throw the bus down now we're going to make the union ours now we got rid of Richard King and so forth and There was so much disappointment that there was no It wasn't successful in. Uh You know, the opposition forces weren't able

02:12:34.200 - 02:12:53.950

to get their shit together and put out a unified slate and so forth. Um, I'm curious as to. What your take is on that and why? What was behind Joe's decision to run an independent campaign rather than simply being part of a TDU slate. Mhm. Um,

02:12:54.040 - 02:13:24.419

I think it was, um. I mean, Actually, I mean, I, I just think it was probably the fact that he, you know, he felt like getting elected was going to be. Just being out there with the people with the teams, you know, you know, he, he,

02:13:24.500 - 02:13:46.609

he, I get, I, I just don't think he felt like. Um, that he was. He just felt like he wanted to be on his own with the people that were going to elect him as opposed to, you know, yeah, because TD wasn't like throughout the whole

02:13:46.609 - 02:14:04.964

damn Teamsters and he needed to get elected by everybody in the teamsters, not just not just TDs. or was it something you guys talked about or that you talked about with him or I think I talked about him, but I think it was his decision, you

02:14:04.964 - 02:14:19.084

know, wasn't like me saying, oh yeah, you need to do it like this. No, I'm sure I didn't do that. I do that because I did not make a huge deal out of association with aside from saying that he helped found the Watsonville chapter, you know,

02:14:19.444 - 02:14:33.259

he was a co-chair but at that point, but it didn't, you know, I didn't mention that. It was the sense I got was that he was, he was making a conscious effort to distance of self sartan. He also told me maybe you can, yeah, what did

02:14:33.259 - 02:14:51.270

he say to you about that too when you said that. He had kind of a falling out with Jose at that point because Jose wanted to go for all the marbles, you know, and he wanted, I think he probably wanted Joe to run against Sergio. And,

02:14:51.819 - 02:15:05.399

and, and Joe said, what's the point? You know, I can't beat that guy. Nobody can. Um, Jose probably got mad at him for it. Jose might have even gotten mad at him for that or whatever. I don't know, I mean, I don't know, is that, is

02:15:05.399 - 02:15:26.169

that your understanding of what happened? I mean, actually the slave did run some Gloria's older brother. Who I think probably could have been qualified as a more moderate, uh, you know, and Joe was worried about him, and he told me he went to Manuel and said,

02:15:26.250 - 02:15:44.919

you guys need to know this guy you're putting up against Sergio is not a strong candidate, and Mama said, we don't pick him. The strikers pick him, you know. I'm just here to help, you know. Uh Which was kind of the approach that Oscar would take

02:15:44.919 - 02:15:59.060

too. He'll still say that you know it's like they've got to make the decisions, you know, we help them carry out the decisions they make, but it's, you know, we're not here to do their work for them, you know that was kind of the. You know,

02:16:00.890 - 02:16:19.490

Maybe sometimes it got a little too passive. I don't know. But anyway, What happened with Armando was that Alex got to him. Alexei Barelaa. Uh, he got, uh, Armando, Gloria's brother, the one who was running against Serra persuaded him not to run. And he pulled out,

02:16:19.609 - 02:16:34.549

you know, a week into the campaign, he decided not to run. Uh, you knew about that, right? Yeah, did you know what was going on? Well, I mean, I didn't know who convinced him and who pulled, you know, I didn't know why he pulled out exactly,

02:16:35.129 - 02:16:49.809

but I thought, you know, somebody must have convinced him. Well, takes credit for it. He says, Hey, look buddy, you know, you're a good man. Sergio is a good man. You can probably beat him actually, you know, but it'll be much easier to keep the international

02:16:49.809 - 02:17:06.540

involved in the strike if they deal with Sergio and not you. You get elected, they might red bait you. Oh, is that what he said? That's what he said, and I think our motto. felt deeply conflicted about running anyway. You know, for one thing, his wife

02:17:06.540 - 02:17:26.558

apparently wasn't supportive. Oh, this is Manuel tells me. Oh well, that makes it a little bit, you know. It does. It's very, very tough to be in a responsible position in the union if you haven't got your shit together at home. I think that sounds woo

02:17:26.558 - 02:17:44.660

iffy iffy. That sounds pretty iffy you know how that goes. I'm not good. Oh, your wife's good. Oh, that's not good. You have to go home to her every day. But the point being, I think that, you know, um. There wasn't really a TDU slight at

02:17:44.660 - 02:18:02.599

that point, and I think even if there hadn't been a You know, a people slight, there wouldn't have been a TDU slight. It's because it just things just weren't. There weren't the people there who were ready to rise up and take, take responsibility. Uh, and I

02:18:02.599 - 02:18:22.370

think anybody being elected to. Run that union With no prior experience would have had a hell of a job on their hands. You know, I mean, Freaking king had not even made financial reports for months and months and months. I mean, you know, to be honest

02:18:22.370 - 02:18:47.309

with you, I don't know if he would have been would have been, I mean, as much as I know Jose and I like Jose, but stress a guy like that, you know, I don't know. You know, I think and the other TDU was, I forgot who,

02:18:47.400 - 02:19:02.379

who was the other TD? Oh, Enrique. Oh yeah, Enrique, I forgot about Enrique. Well, he's a really funny and like the way I like I like, you know, he did a good interview on the movie, you know, he did rips up a board and I got

02:19:02.379 - 02:19:17.668

to make sure my kids don't fall in, you know. Yeah, that's pretty good. Where did they go after they were evicted? Um, they found a place, you know, I think, I'm trying to think where the place was at because I even know because I was always

02:19:17.668 - 02:19:33.049

hanging out with them over their house. Um, Where did they find a place to go live? I think it was they found like even like a trailer or something like that. They had a big family though that was kind of hard. It was a smaller trailer

02:19:33.049 - 02:19:49.808

and a big family. I remember it wasn't the greatest place that they found but because this house was semi big. This house that's right, you know, that's right over here, this house they live that's right here and um this house, but it was a, but it

02:19:49.808 - 02:20:05.529

was a semi big house, you know, and they had a big family, so the house worked in terms of from that point of view worked for the family because it was big because I think they, they live right next door to Aurora after they left before

02:20:05.529 - 02:20:20.740

they left. They were both right across the street from the plant, aren't they? Was Aurora right across the street. She was, yeah, because I knew there were a bunch of people on her front porch, I guess, you know, when when the injunction first went into effect

02:20:20.740 - 02:20:37.089

and the cops busted them all, you know, that was how I first heard where is the house that's there I I never heard that. I remember I knew Aurora really well. I think she was on. Because you know when they set up the tent and they

02:20:37.089 - 02:20:51.410

were doing the hunger strike. Um, this is another story I got from Gloria. It's like, um. They were sitting in this tent in front of the plant. And Aurora was cooking for her and they hadn't eaten in 5 days and Aurora was cooking for her family,

02:20:51.669 - 02:21:15.929

you know, the smells were kind of wafting down into the street. She came out and apologized, you know, I'm sorry, my kids got to eat, you know. I'm sorry. That's pretty funny. I'm just trying to think which one was her house. Yeah, I'm trying to think.

02:21:15.980 - 02:21:23.429

I forget which one, I think you know after that meeting. A bunch of the women went back to her house and I think Maria Cole was with them and that's when they came up with the idea of pitching a tent in front of the plant and

02:21:23.429 - 02:21:40.910

having a hunger strike. And then I guess some. Some doctor came and talked to them about how to keep themselves hydrated and so forth and how to do it without killing yourself, and you know a priest came and told them, you know. I mean that they

02:21:40.910 - 02:21:59.900

were getting all this expert advice for people who were supposed to know about Gandhian tactics. Any of them would ever really. And I that that whole scene was just so. Catholic, you know what. A lot of things they did, you know, like the, the walk on

02:21:59.900 - 02:22:18.540

their knees, that's pretty catholic. Well, I, I know what Gloria says, you know. Those bastards have seen us on our knees. I'm, I'll march, but I'm not gonna march on my knees, but she's very anti, you know, anti-church, I think, you know, she said, you know,

02:22:18.830 - 02:22:31.150

a lot of those ladies are pretty religious, you know. You want to be in leadership, you got to respect their, their beliefs, you know. Yeah, you could, you could say that's a case of caving in too, you know, or going which way the wind blowing. I

02:22:31.150 - 02:22:48.129

think to some extent that's. That is one of the things that leadership requires of people is that you Not be so sure of your own opinions that you won't accommodate other people's. Um, to me, I'm lac, I think, but um.