00:00:00.910 - 00:00:26.469

OK. Here we go. Um. Let's start with the first question. I, um, I know there was a rank and file bargaining committee at Chris at, uh, the Shah. I gather it wasn't the same people as were elected to the strike committee in October. Um, pretty much,

00:00:26.959 - 00:01:08.569

pretty much, uh, the names that come to mind is Clementa Laguereta. Um, Um, Victoria Benavidez, was she on it? Victoria Benavides, yes. Shorty. Um, Duval Basaldua I probably should copy, get these names right. Just spell them for me. Basaldua, uh B as in boy, B A

00:01:10.019 - 00:01:43.000

S A. L D U A. What's the first name again? Duval D, yeah, OK. OK, um. Linda Garcia, was she? Uh, yes, Aurora Trujillo. Um I don't remember her. She actually was on the striker committee and continued to be on it after Shaw settled, so she

00:01:43.000 - 00:02:11.020

kept going to the meetings and, you know, stayed pretty much active. I know she testified at a couple of city council meetings and. I just don't remember. I can't, you know I mean I've been poring through all these records and you know newspaper clippings and stuff

00:02:11.020 - 00:02:24.429

so if I say I'm not showing off. I'm just trying to jog your memory um Manuel, what was his name. Was there a meeting where these folks were elected, you know, the Shaw strikers? Yes, all those people were elected by the workers, the, the workers. And

00:02:24.429 - 00:02:51.619

this wasn't at the October 15th meeting where the strikers Committee was elected. This was later, right before the, the negotiations started. Mhm. I'm asking this because. There's something in John Silver's film which suggests that the strikers Committee supported the settlement. Um, which. strikes me as a

00:02:51.619 - 00:03:20.070

little off because I know there was a lot of. Uh, resentment on the part of the Watsonville County, Watsonville, people were very unhappy with the Shaw people. Extremely unhappy. In fact, um. When we had the um the meeting, the ratification meeting. For the Shah proposal. A

00:03:20.070 - 00:03:45.320

lot of the wasp will caring people, yeah. The more violent to yours, I'll say. Lopez and those guys, they, uh, oh, Danny started a riot. We wanted to climb up at the podium and Beat up and the strikers come in. Um, but you know, nothing happened,

00:03:45.360 - 00:04:04.830

but pretty tense. I think Alex told me they had to clear the hall at one point, yeah, yeah, um, yeah. Were you, you were privy to the negotiations, right? Yeah, um. I, this is a question that's not on the list, but it's something that's occurred to

00:04:04.830 - 00:04:23.040

me. When the strike started, Shaw was offering $666 an hour. How did that drop down to 585? You know, I was not part of that. Um, there, there were two things that happened and I hate to, um, I have to say this because it would be

00:04:23.040 - 00:04:52.359

a. Part of uh Alexi Balas's legacy, he's dead now and you shouldn't speak ill of the dead. But somehow, Steve Shaw. was able to condense. You borrow as that. 666 was not going to be. A workable number that they needed less money. To pay less and

00:04:52.359 - 00:05:13.619

uh I was not at those negotiations, but when Alex came back to me, I said no fucking way. You know, but it's, you know, this, this guy is, and not only that. Um, Alex agreed to Take a clause out of the contract that said That any

00:05:13.619 - 00:05:39.059

adjacent plants or within the jurisdiction, adjacent or any facility within Loco Nanto's jurisdiction that belonged to the employer, uh, would also come under contract. Well, Alex. agreed to do that, to take it out. And I didn't even notice it. So, as a consequence of that, they

00:05:39.059 - 00:06:07.200

opened up uh farmers processing. Uh, in partnership with, uh, Ray Rodriguez, it was the uh Steve Shaw. Uh, personally, Who opened that company and not that cold storage. And uh They were able to keep it running nonunion because that clause came out of the contract and

00:06:07.200 - 00:06:30.339

I just, uh, I was beside myself. When did that happen? Um, when, uh, when Alex and, and, uh, Steve were negotiating by themselves, but when did they open up the farmers was that during the strike or right after the strike, yeah, I mean, I. Rodriguez was

00:06:30.339 - 00:06:49.290

a, uh, he was one of those guys who buys the produce from the farmers and then sells it to the uh. The plants, right, like, like Ed Silva, so he basically set up a non-union, non-union operation to get the producer shot, um. Yeah, I mean, I

00:06:51.109 - 00:07:07.350

My all way in here I have mixed feelings about about him. Um, I've been poring over the documents from the boycott. And a lot of stuff he did there was very impressive, and I think he manipulated the international union very skillfully, you know, um, to get

00:07:07.350 - 00:07:26.859

there to keep them engaged in the strike, and I think he deserves credit for that. I do not understand his bargaining strategy, you know, it just seems like he gave up more than he needed to. Yeah, he certainly did. It, it's kind of um. Alex had

00:07:26.859 - 00:07:52.839

more of a an employer mentality than he had a union mentality. I mean, he, he was a fine union man, but he certainly understood. The the employer mentality. And um He knew How to um Have to get them to the bargaining table and keep them at

00:07:52.839 - 00:08:16.690

the bargaining table, but, um, all, all, but all at a cost. The workers Did you Have conflicts with him, I mean, uh, at any point, um, well I know you had a lot of trouble with Blake's, you know, when they came in, you know, yeah, no,

00:08:17.250 - 00:08:40.609

Alex and I got along fine except like I said when we got right down to the negotiate negotiations, I, I didn't agree with him, yeah. Uh, on, on some issues. But by this time You know, they're already talking about um Joint Council 7 is gonna take

00:08:40.609 - 00:08:59.080

over the, the strike and all that, uh, they were there, they were already thinking of that as you can read in here. You know, I wanted to ask about this whole Um, well, a couple of things. One was the, the me too clause in the um

00:08:59.289 - 00:09:17.289

in the uh. Shaw contract, which I know. People weren't even aware of really until after the vote was taken from what I understand, yeah, that was part of the presentation. Can you explain exactly how that worked for me the most clause. I mean, Shaw was reluctant

00:09:17.289 - 00:09:45.460

he had been bitten. Uh, before, when, um, he was made to pay 706 and console was paying uh 20 cents less. Um, and he, he asked for the favored Nation clause, which means that If a more favorable deal is made with another. Cannery, another frozen food

00:09:45.460 - 00:10:07.650

processor. The same deal would apply would be entered into his automatically. So it wasn't like the simply the contract would be reopened. It was like the if if consul settled for less than 585, no negotiations, no nothing would immediately get ratchet right back down, yeah, um,

00:10:07.960 - 00:10:23.890

did you? have issues with that or do you feel like given what had happened in '82 that it was unavoidable? No, I didn't blame him. I, you know, because of what happened in 2, I didn't blame them for wanting to, I mean, what's the old saying

00:10:23.890 - 00:10:49.280

uh. On ice shy. Yeah, I mean, I got the negotiations for the crap that. Yeah, I was totally against that. I, I beg Richard King not to let that happen. Let me go talk to the people. I'll turn them around. Well, that I did with you

00:10:49.280 - 00:11:10.710

about the best explanation I've been able to get to King did that. Um You know It it seems like one of those imponderable questions, you know. He um I don't know. King was a great labor leader in his day. In fact, he was a rebel rouser.

00:11:11.520 - 00:11:31.090

He belonged to the young Turks. And as time went on. Um, I mean, he was, this guy would. When I first met him, I wanted to be just like him because, uh, number one, he was my mentor. Uh, 2. He encouraged me to become a citizen,

00:11:31.460 - 00:11:50.619

to go to school, to go to college and all that. Your dad was a citizen, wasn't he? No, no, wasn't a GI. No, oh, OK. I wonder where I got that from. No, my dad was, uh, born and raised and died in Mexico City. Really? OK,

00:11:50.700 - 00:12:10.559

I better correct my manuscript and somehow I got the idea that your dad was Puerto Rican and he'd been a GI. And then my stepdad, oh, OK, my stepdad, but that doesn't count for for immigration purposes. No, no, yeah. Uh, well, actually my stepdad is the

00:12:10.559 - 00:12:26.039

one that brought my mom and I from Mexico. OK, so I'm not totally off base. No, no, no, it wasn't my dad. It was my stepdad when she married, he was in the Marine Corps, right, and, uh, when, when he married her, um. But you did

00:12:26.039 - 00:12:51.729

have to be naturalized when you got here, yes, and you were already what, 21 years old. No, let's see, I was 15 when we got a green card. And um 7 years later, I got my naturalization papers. But King was a dynamo in those days. I

00:12:51.729 - 00:13:05.650

mean, he's he's a guy that when he walked to the bathroom, you could see the purpose in this, his walk. I mean he was going somewhere, you know, I remember you telling me that I is actually that we've covered before, so I'm gonna steer away from

00:13:05.650 - 00:13:17.840

it, although I find it fascinating to talk about but I'm glad you got that clarified because I was um. Yeah, I didn't realize that was your stepdad. Yeah, I thought you didn't have to worry about naturalization or anything like that. No, no, no, yeah, yeah, in

00:13:17.840 - 00:13:48.219

fact, was my sponsor. Did your mom ever get citizenship? No, she did not. Uh, no, my grandmother never really learned English either. The most articulate thing she ever said in English was a schmuck has a head, but it hasn't a brain. It's. Um Anyway, so. When

00:13:48.669 - 00:14:06.169

the Crossetti negotiations started. Um, did the initial contract, the one that they people there voted down, did that have the same language about, uh, you know, the me too, and did that get modified? That's my understanding, but I wanna make sure. No, uh, the, the negotiations

00:14:06.169 - 00:14:29.989

were totally different, um. Um, obviously that company wanted to, they didn't want to be at, didn't want to be at a disadvantage like, uh, Shaw had been. And um they just said, look, we'll, we'll take the um. We'll take the Shah settlement. And um And that,

00:14:30.109 - 00:14:50.919

that, that's it. We can't give you any more than that and uh we don't want to take anything away. And But the wages have to be the same. And uh but this time, Bartay and Cruz Gomez and Joe Fahey were agitating the people. I mean, they

00:14:50.919 - 00:15:09.299

were every day they were over there, vote, no vote, no vote, no. So finally JJ Crocetti. Said to me, There will be no strike here, Sergio. I just want you to know that you don't have to worry about a strike. If they, the people don't want

00:15:09.299 - 00:15:36.059

to work for us. We'll close it. Yeah. And he did, yeah. And I already knew that he would do that. I, I know Crusading because that's exactly what he did to the UFW, the, the UFW I hadn't heard about this. The UFW struck. Uh, Crossetti. In

00:15:36.059 - 00:16:00.200

the fields was this in the in Paharo Valley oral. And it went on for a while, we got pretty violent. And finally Caceti just said, OK, that's up, we're out of the field business yeah. Did they ever resume it? No. I wonder if, have you seen

00:16:00.200 - 00:16:16.330

Barnay's book about the UFW? No, I haven't actually, uh, it's worth reading. I really think so, yeah, it's a fascinating book, and you won't agree with all of it, but it's very detailed. And you know, the focus is really on, you know, a lot of the

00:16:16.330 - 00:16:30.200

activity in the Salinas Valley and some of the kind of the leaders who emerged there who he I guess he worked alongside him for several years before he settled in Watsonville. So you know he speaks with some. Authority about the union and I mean so much

00:16:30.200 - 00:16:44.200

of what's been written about the UFW just focuses on La Paz it's not where the stuff was going on, you know, so it's, it's uh. It's worth reading and he's he's a good enough writer that you can sail through a 700 page book without too much

00:16:44.200 - 00:17:08.739

trouble. 15 years to write the er you know that's what he's doing a bright man. I've always wondered what his motivation was that he was screwing with the. The the United Farm Workers Union, as I understand it, they be they beat the shit out of him.

00:17:09.109 - 00:17:24.800

Yeah, well, he. You know, He was out of a job, you know, there was work in the fields. He took it. He liked doing the work, you know, he liked the people he met. They taught him how to cut celery. They taught him a little bit

00:17:24.800 - 00:17:42.270

of Spanish, you know. Uh, quite a bit, yeah, you know, and uh. Um, I think. It didn't take much to get kind of on the outs with that union in those days, especially, you know, in this part of the state. You know, I think Chavez really

00:17:42.270 - 00:17:57.619

did feel threatened by a lot of the activity going on in the Salinas Valley. Um Plus, you know, he made a mistake. He hooked up with this, you know. Uh, left group that I don't even think he agreed with politically, but they were the only ones,

00:17:57.719 - 00:18:12.160

you know, working in the fields at that point, um. And I probably didn't help either. But you know, I think he got enough. He was doing this work for 4 or 5 years, and I think he learned enough to write intelligently about it. I, um, I

00:18:12.160 - 00:18:34.750

always wondered what motivated him because after he got done with the the UFW, he came to the Teamsters. I admired that about him because he had some good ideas and he actually took a job, a menial job, I mean backbreaking labor working at Hanson's, uh. Um,

00:18:35.699 - 00:18:54.469

Oh was it Mount Madonna. It was about Mo Madonna first and then it was Hans's, uh, juice, and he was stacking the, the cans and stuff like that. So for a man with such high education, I thought, what is, what is he doing here? Well, I

00:18:54.469 - 00:19:07.500

think he fell in love with Watsonville when he got here. You know, he liked the small town atmosphere, you know, uh, he felt close to the people he'd been working with alongside, you know, alongside him in the fields, you know, and he was still in contact

00:19:07.500 - 00:19:19.339

with them when he was doing adult education. You know, I guess he probably, in my opinion, if he was serious about, you know, working in the Teamsters union, he should have kept that job at hand, but he's told me he didn't like doing that kind of

00:19:19.339 - 00:19:30.099

work. They put him on a forklift, which he didn't feel comfortable doing, and I can relate because the same thing happened to me when I was working at the Oakland Post office, you know, after I dumped a few pallets off the edge of the dock, I

00:19:30.099 - 00:19:45.260

thought this really isn't the best thing for me to be doing, you know, it's, it's a skill. And uh if you got it or you don't I think um but uh when when I used to go talk to him at the plant um we had nice

00:19:45.260 - 00:20:10.209

conversations and and uh I could tell he was very, very bright and uh. He What can I say about Frank. Frank is kind of a, he would have been a good uh military officer. That's interesting because he would, uh, he just takes charge and wants, wants

00:20:10.209 - 00:20:22.130

to manage the situation. You guys go here, you guys go there, follow me, we're going there. That was kind of the way Joe Fahey described him too, you know, it's like the guy had just all this self-confidence. He always had an idea about what to do

00:20:22.130 - 00:20:39.949

next, you know, um, but, but if you didn't follow him, then you got the shit. Well, I, I've had some interesting talks with him actually since I started doing he's great fun to talk to, and I think he's. What I appreciate is that he genuinely wants

00:20:39.949 - 00:20:51.900

to know what you think and if he doesn't agree, he likes to argue with you about it, you know, but he's interested, you know, it's not just he doesn't write people off if you disagree with them, you know, I actually like Bardiy better than I, uh,

00:20:52.069 - 00:21:13.060

I think he's more honest. 100 times more honest thaney. You never know where Fay is coming from. You never know what he's gonna do next, but Frankie always, uh, he'll tell you exactly how he feels and where he stands. Well, that's, um, Was there any change,

00:21:13.160 - 00:21:30.920

getting back to Grisetti, was there any change in their contract after they did that two week shutdown? Was the language modified at all? Not that I recall, Peter, not that they still have that most favored nation language in it and that if, if. Cause there's a

00:21:30.920 - 00:21:48.290

letter in the files where that the head of that plant sent you, I think. Where he says some people are under the impression that automatically of Watsonvilleanning settles for less, we'll automatically get the same amount. That's not true. We're simply asking for the right to reopen

00:21:48.290 - 00:22:06.189

the contract if there's another wage settlement somewhere else, whereas at Shaw it was automatic. Does that jive with your recollection? No, not really. Yeah, I, I mean, I just, I would be guessing if I said yes I don't recall I was hoping you'd know that because

00:22:06.189 - 00:22:23.430

you know I mean Alex isn't around anymore, you know, to ask um. Uh, They basically didn't get any additional concessions as a result of that two week. But it settled by a very narrow margin, didn't it? I mean it was pretty overwhelming to reject it at

00:22:23.430 - 00:22:37.949

first, and when I went back it was almost split down the middle. Do they need a 2, a 2/3 majority to reject or um. Uh, no, no, no, that's the other thing I'm confused about is when you need 2/3 and when you didn't. I know that

00:22:37.949 - 00:23:00.619

was a big issue with that. You need 2/3 for a strike. But a simple majority for um gratification or rejection. When you got into that big fight with uh with Joe Fahey at the uh ratification meeting for for for David Gill. Ah, he was claiming that

00:23:00.619 - 00:23:14.060

a majority would be enough, and you said it had to be 2/3 to stay out. And I guess you guys were wrangling about that for, uh, you know, an hour, 1 hour and a half in that meeting, according to the press accounts. Did they get it

00:23:14.060 - 00:23:31.119

right? I mean, I know at some point the press was kind of asked to leave. Well, that That argument between Fahey and I was not really between Fay and I. Fahy, we were talking to the membership. He would, he would explain one thing and I would

00:23:31.119 - 00:24:00.290

say, uh, how I saw things. And uh I said what you're doing is you're trying to by rejecting this con this contract you are prolonging the strike. And um The argument basically was. These people should not have to wait um. 3 years to get health and

00:24:00.290 - 00:24:21.609

welfare benefits and I said well when we negotiated the contract we wanted the contract exactly as it it had been and uh basically gave Gil the Shaw settlement right right and uh which was that he was a new plant so right and I said but because

00:24:21.609 - 00:24:45.729

it is a new employer right. Uh, the pension benefits will start, they'll get retroactive credits. Uh, for all the, the, uh, the time that they, they, they worked at um. Uh, when they go to retire, they, they, you know, even though they're brand new employees. Their

00:24:45.729 - 00:25:02.390

their pension benefits will start whenever the company became uh because as long as Mort Cono was still in business, he was making payments into the pension fund and that didn't just disappear when he went broke. It was still the money was still there, right? Well, the

00:25:02.390 - 00:25:22.099

money was in the trust, and the, and we kept after, I kept after him. I'll take the credit for that. Um, I, I told the trust attorney, uh, Charlie Stork. To go after uh more council's money, personal money, and pierce the, try to pierce the uh

00:25:22.660 - 00:25:49.339

um. Uh, corporate Uh, shield and he did it. He did try to, uh, he did try it, try it. Charlie Stork, uh, he's a lawyer in San Francisco. Did he work for Mason's office or no, he works he works for the uh Saat Hartley attorney. OK.

00:25:52.780 - 00:26:09.250

He was the attorney for the Taft Hartley, right, OK, this is something, there's nothing about this in the paper at all. And so more counsel after the strike ended and all that, he had, he had to come up with some $2 million. Yeah, he lost everything,

00:26:10.780 - 00:26:25.119

didn't he? And remember Oscar told me he ran into him a few months before he died, I guess, and he was just sort of buying cheap red wine at a liquor store, you know, on the corner in town, you know. Uh Talk about a self-destructive character.

00:26:26.989 - 00:26:50.569

It was 2.something. In fact, I think I have Charlie Stork's cell phone number. What's, how do you spell his last name? Stork, just like the Stork that brings babies. S T O R K. So basically that was how the pension money was. Yeah, I mean, uh,

00:26:51.180 - 00:27:07.949

council wanted to just look, I'm out of business. I, I don't have any withdrawal liability, and I said no. He says, I filed bankruptcy, blah blah blah. I says, no, but you come with the, the money, he says, hey. I think that we have a good

00:27:07.949 - 00:27:40.540

case if we go after him. And Charlie did and Charlie. One for the trust. Well my understanding of the way these trusts work. 925426. 53 42 5342. I'll just drop your name and hopefully he'll talk to me. If I don't drop your name, he'll probably say

00:27:40.540 - 00:27:58.209

that's confidential, you know. Um, I mean, the trust is still there, right? He still represents it. He, he works for the Western Conference of Teams Trust. Oh, actually, Chuck Mack runs that now, right? He's still I mean he's retired from joint counsel, so he saw that

00:27:58.209 - 00:28:14.489

office over in San Ramon. I guess if I can't find him, I could probably get it from Chuck. Uh, likes to talk to me. It's his legacy, you know. I know when he retired, he said that the high point of my career was at strike. Yeah,

00:28:15.989 - 00:28:35.390

everybody wanted to own that, and I never gave a shit about credit, you know, when I to answer some of your questions, he says, when did you first talk to David Gill? What happened was that um I got wind. That uh David Gill was in the

00:28:35.390 - 00:29:05.560

process, was in negotiations and uh through the bank with the bank and counsel. Uh, to take over the. The place But of course he wanted to run a non-union. So, I got a hold of David. We met surreptitiously down in the King City. At O'Keefe's, the

00:29:05.560 - 00:29:26.670

restaurant, I don't know if it's there anymore. Do you have a, do you have a rough idea when this happened? Um, I know that the papers were full of the negotiations between the farmers and the banks and console like all through October and November of '86

00:29:26.670 - 00:29:54.099

after that 11 day shutdown of the plant. It was, it was around that time. Around the same time. Um, So anyway, um, I met with David and he says, uh, you know, why should I join the union? I says, because you'll have a Knowledgeable workforce, you

00:29:54.099 - 00:30:13.400

know. You know, the kind of person more counsel is. I mean, he owes you $7 million I understand, he says, well, A little more than that. And, and I said, um, the only chance you'll have to recover your money is to hire these people back, take

00:30:13.400 - 00:30:37.420

the plan over, run it right. They'll bust their butts for you. You'll be seen like a Knight in shining armor. You'll be a hero. Mhm. So then he um Uh, we met again with his attorney, Jeff Gillis. I thought his attorney was Maltzman, later, later, yeah.

00:30:38.479 - 00:30:59.380

Uh, his Mosman is a high powered attorney in the city. I talked to him. I did talk to him. Oh, you did talk to high powered is right. Oh yeah, he thinks highly of himself, really high of himself. Um, And uh he was livid Mosman when

00:30:59.430 - 00:31:24.329

when whenever Fahey um convinced me to Go back to the bargaining table and negotiate the health and welfare benefits for the seasonal workers. And uh he says, I thought we had a deal. And uh he's looking at Chuck Bank. And uh He and I said, Mr.

00:31:24.359 - 00:31:44.890

Mosspen, you are mistaken. The person that you need to negotiate with is me, not Mr. Mac. I am the principal officer of that local union no matter what you hear. And I said, uh, and he says, well, I thought you, I thought you agreed to that.

00:31:44.949 - 00:32:06.459

I did, sir, I did agree to that. But now I'm coming back to you. You know, asking you to. Reinstate the health and welfare benefits. Uh, this is Maltzman you're talking about now, Maltzman, yeah, in San Francisco. Keep going in Golden Gate Avenue, I think his

00:32:06.459 - 00:32:35.459

office is in, yeah, I think I have a phone number for him. And uh so anyway, that was, uh, that's what happened and then. As I, as I started talking to um Uh, to David Gill. John Blake. John Blake and I'm not so sure that Borrow

00:32:35.459 - 00:32:51.780

Lassa was in on it all, all that deep. John Blake and I and uh Chuck Bank were ready to pull the pin on on local 912. I mean they're just going and going and going and going. The international was all over there as is saying money

00:32:51.780 - 00:33:13.500

going out, no money coming in, you know, it's gotta stop. It's gotta stop. It's gotta stop. So they were just about to, to pull the trigger on me, on the local. And um So I said, look, John. You know, don't get your. Shirts in a knot.

00:33:14.109 - 00:33:37.020

Uh, I'm Todd Gill, and it looks promising. It looks very good. What? What? You're talking to Gil, the guy that's supposed to be by this? Oh man. And this is at the Cliff Inn where he was staying. Uh, so, uh, motella in uh in Atos. And

00:33:37.020 - 00:33:50.400

boy, he got on the phone. He called the international he called Chuck Mac and everything changed after that. I mean this would have been right after Chuck was making noises about trustee, but February 7th, I think was the date he did that. So we're we're talking

00:33:50.400 - 00:34:08.560

about mid-February now. I mean, I, I saved the day right right in the nick of time. I mean they were, they were already I can see why you were so squeamish about, you know, the thing not going through with that ratification, you know, I guess you

00:34:08.560 - 00:34:22.668

were quoted in the press as saying this deal is really fragile and people need to realize that. In retrospect, I'll tell you what David Gill told me OK. Uh, you know, he said, Well, I said, Was that a big deal, you know, when they, when they

00:34:22.668 - 00:34:33.668

didn't ratify the original terms, he says, Oh, I was disappointed, but I understood, you know, I mean, Sergio can't speak for his members. He's got to sell it to them and if they're not buying it, they're not buying it, we just went back and tickered with

00:34:33.668 - 00:34:53.540

the pension plan so it wasn't a big deal. The main thing is I wanted to get that plant running because I was losing money. Um, That was, you know, um. It was, he told me something else too. I'm trying to remember what. What it was. Um,

00:34:53.709 - 00:35:10.780

oh. I got the impression from just reading the stuff that was coming out of the Western Conference and so forth. And even Alex's status report, the last one that he wrote, I think in October or November of '86, whenever it was, is they're all on file

00:35:10.780 - 00:35:28.550

there at San Francisco State. That pretty much the teamsters were prepared to write off. Uh The whole Watsonville canning situation the guy's bankrupt. We can't do anything more about it. The workers have said we'll never go back to work for that SOB anyway. They put up

00:35:28.550 - 00:35:44.570

a great fight. At least we're keeping the industry unionized, uh, and they were kind of proceeding. Under that assumption and then they set up that little uh job, you know, job referral thing in the union hall. Uh, I wondered, I mean, that didn't seem to me

00:35:44.570 - 00:36:01.129

like it's something you would do to help people get them through the strike. That was more. They, they, they were gonna walk and the people, they were gonna walk away. Did a lot of people take advantage of that thing? Mm, the job training program that EDD

00:36:01.129 - 00:36:17.389

set up in the union office, not in the office. They set it up by Crosetti. Oh, OK, uh, yeah, so quite a few people. I mean there were a bunch of people who never went back to work in that plant, you know, afterwards I mean. Actually,

00:36:17.479 - 00:36:32.610

I guess um. Surprised me is Guillermina Ramirez, who I guess is one of the early really prominent people. Uh, I didn't realize until I talked to her that she would not go back to work in that place after the strike was over, you know, went and

00:36:32.610 - 00:36:49.760

got her degree instead. And she's a social worker now. Did you know that? I knew she was working for the county. I didn't know that she does, you know, children's services. But she uh Remembers the strike with a lot of pain. You know, it was like

00:36:49.760 - 00:37:09.500

all that sacrifice was a lot of pain in my ass. Yeah, well, a lot plenty of people. Oh, she was in your ass. Oh man, yeah. Well, She, she used to go on TV, her and, uh, Gloria Betancourt, and they say. Sergio, where's the money? Where's

00:37:09.500 - 00:37:30.179

the money? What were they talking about the strike fund. Oh yeah, yeah, that the very beginning? Throughout the whole thing and uh Sabelo used to tell me that uh they were the ones that were stealing money they'd go out out of town and and collect funds

00:37:30.739 - 00:37:44.550

uh and they would never turn it over to him. He was uh they had well that's the other thing I wanted to ask you about because I know he had. Uh, a fund that the striker committee set up, a hardship fund, so you know they pay

00:37:44.550 - 00:38:06.280

people's doctor bills or they pay their rent or whatever before there was any kind of before the local 912 had any kind of thing functioning that way. No, we, we set up a strike fund and assessment, right. Uh, but, um, King had made a mistake, and,

00:38:06.330 - 00:38:26.659

uh, he told the people that would be totally completely separate fund. And it would be managed. And directed by the by the by committee that was elected at the Guillermina was on that committee when Armando Morales and Armando right and and what happened is that Dwayne

00:38:26.659 - 00:38:44.350

Beason says no, you cannot have a separate. Every dollar that goes into the union has has to come out, has to go into the general fund and come out of the general fund. You can keep a ledger of what uh what you take in and what

00:38:44.350 - 00:39:09.810

you, you spend, but you can, you can't have a separate checking account. Um, this is what puzzled me because uh the first indication I came across that that fund wasn't legally, you know, kosher was I guess in March of February or March of '86, you know,

00:39:09.929 - 00:39:24.800

fairly early on. Joe sent a letter to Beason saying, you know, is this OK the way this is being done, and he says, no, it has to be done by the union. And then here's Chuck Mac raising it again a year later, you know, in February

00:39:24.800 - 00:39:40.399

of '87. You know, I was appalled to learn that, you know, there's another letter in the file somewhere where he says how can the union maintain this separate fund, you know, that all sorts of legal problems and cash could be misappropriated, that sort of thing. No,

00:39:40.540 - 00:39:55.280

I think Chuck must have been talking about uh the fund that Chavelo had was the, the secret treasure. Because I know, you know, uh, Gloria would go off on a speaking tour and pass the hat and then she'd come back and she'd, you know, give the

00:39:55.280 - 00:40:12.370

money to Chavelo and he would just sort of pass it out. That was according to who knows, he, he actually felt that some of the money was draining away. He was, he was responsible for about 1200, I think at one point. I, I have, um, a

00:40:12.370 - 00:40:30.090

letter that he wrote. Um, You know, where he just accounted for how the money was being spent, how much would come in, how much was going on, I know, I mean, I. He was very good. Cabela was very, very good and very honest. I, I'll never

00:40:30.090 - 00:40:50.479

forget when Jesse Jackson was here. Uh, he came down with the Sherry Tang and some of those, um, activists from San Francisco brought him in. And uh so we're marching through town. And uh Jackson, he turns to me and says, uh, is there any way that

00:40:50.479 - 00:41:10.000

you guys can get me a jet? I need to get down to Los Angeles. Um, I'm gonna marry, um. Maxine Waters. That is a jet, we don't have a jet. And he says, you got your national has jets. Can't you get one down here to take

00:41:10.000 - 00:41:27.540

me to. Um, to marry Maxine Waters. Maxine Waters said this or Jackson said Jackson. I said, no, I'm sorry. I said, you know, we paid for your trip over here on the charter, but that's it. That's, and he says, Oh, I gotta get there right away.

00:41:27.989 - 00:41:47.689

And so he says, Don't you, don't you have a, a strike fund? And Chabelo says, Yeah, we have a strike fund. And he says, Well, can you give me the 3 $4000 from there. And I said, uh Mr. Jackson. Uh I am not responsible for that

00:41:47.689 - 00:42:05.520

fund, but I will give you my opinion so Chabelo can hear it. Not one penny, not $1 from that from that fund is going to go to you so you can charter a plane to go marry. So the union out. Yes, Gloria made some comment to

00:42:05.520 - 00:42:18.370

me about, well, yeah, it was nice to have him come and talk to us. It boosted everybody's morale, but I was kind of pissed off that he was hitting us up for money. Yeah. You know, I mean, I, he's he's a hustler, a bit of one,

00:42:18.399 - 00:42:40.790

yeah. I, I have mixed feelings. He, he played a good role for a while, and I, I know he helped the strike, you know, and he helped a lot of strikes actually, but he was a hustler. Uh, anyway, Jesse looks after Jesse, so, um. And here

00:42:40.790 - 00:42:56.689

on, so you, you were talking to Maltzmann and before the negotiating committee actually got involved with it, um. Were you talking about, you know, what's going to happen? I mean, I know there was a lot of negotiations going on behind the scenes over who's got for

00:42:56.689 - 00:43:10.500

his claim on consul's money and how his debts are going to be settled and how which growers are going to be paid and which aren't, and there were all these lawsuits flying back and forth. Was the union involved in that at all? No, no, I mean

00:43:10.500 - 00:43:26.340

the only thing you did was you called up, uh, Charlie Stork and said, um, have the, you know, the Taft Hartley Fund make a claim on his, his, uh. His personal fund that was after the strike ended after the strike, yeah, OK, so how, I mean,

00:43:26.419 - 00:43:41.479

he'd been paying into the pension fund right up until the strike began, right? It's not the way those funds work. So the disputed money was the money that should have been going into the pension fund. While the strike was going on during those 18 months, it's

00:43:41.479 - 00:44:00.179

what they call withdrawal liability, right, yeah, um, and was that affected at all? I mean, I know the way the health, the health benefits issue is finally settled was. Uh, people just had to wait an extra 6 months before they could draw their pension, you know,

00:44:00.280 - 00:44:17.379

which seemed like a sensible solution, but on the balance, the cost to get all of the contract is no different from what you had settled on before. Basically, no, no, yeah, it's always an ingenious solution. Um, the thing about the health benefits, I mean, but you

00:44:17.379 - 00:44:34.860

know, what my, my problem with Peggy was, I says, Joe, for Christ's sakes. What what if David Gill takes a walk? Were you really afraid that he would? I didn't know David Gill that way that well. I, in, in my heart of hearts, I, I thought,

00:44:35.149 - 00:44:51.889

no, he's not gonna walk away. He's he's he's too nice of a guy. I was more afraid of uh maltzman was not a nice guy. No, well, in my opinion he is he's he kissed his grandchildren when he put to bed, but. When you're negotiating with

00:44:51.889 - 00:45:10.540

him, he's not a nice guy. He's a lawyer. Oh man, he's ruthless, yeah, yeah. Um, well, maybe I won't go back and talk to you. I want to know about these negotiations. I mean. Well, he, I mean. Gil was his client. I mean, it was Gill's

00:45:10.540 - 00:45:22.530

decision to make, wasn't it? I mean, I know that, you know, the whole thing about do you settle without the health benefits or do you hold out and try to get something more? I mean, something like that's always a judgment call and if it works, you

00:45:22.530 - 00:45:38.389

look like a hero. If it doesn't work, you look like a bum. I mean, I remember I was up in Oakland when I first heard about it. And you know, My initial reaction is what the fuck is Fahey doing? They've settled, they've won the strike. Don't

00:45:38.389 - 00:45:52.780

mess with it anymore, but I, I have to say in retrospect that. I think he did the right thing. I, well, it turned out all right. I says, Joe, afterwards I said, Joe, what, why did you do that? Why, why would you gamble with 1000 people's

00:45:52.780 - 00:46:10.780

lives that way to prolong the strike is because I, I knew you could do it. Well, it's paying you a rather high compliment. Yeah, I says, really, you knew. And how did you know? You never, you never even wanted to be in negotiations. Mhm. You, you

00:46:10.780 - 00:46:25.409

never wanted to go to the Shaw negotiations. You never wanted to go to the uh would he have been, uh. Would have been appropriate for him? I mean, he wasn't a frozen food worker. He worked for UPS, right? I mean. No, he was already a rep,

00:46:26.020 - 00:46:38.659

yeah, so he could have sat in on this. I asked him to. He wanted to be out in out in fringes. Oh, that's interesting to me. I never, you know, he wanted to be out on the, on the fringes so he could criticize, but if he

00:46:38.659 - 00:46:57.899

was there in person contributing, then he wouldn't be able to criticize. Well, he gets he gets jacked up in the movie. Uh, and I think some of his friends on the Watsonville strike Sport Committee were jacking him up for not. Speaking up at the Shaw ratification

00:46:57.899 - 00:47:13.889

meeting. And um Yeah, well, I'm an officer in the union now it's not my place to. You never impose my will on the rank and file. And they said, no, no, no, people elected you to be their advocate, you know, that kind of thing. Um, I,

00:47:13.979 - 00:47:30.520

I, this is Frank Bardike's account, I guess. So of course when the Shaw contract, I mean when the Crossetti contract came up, he was all out there. I think in his ass. Well, you know, I mean he. Kind of felt about By the way you felt

00:47:30.520 - 00:47:52.510

initially about Richard King. He was the guy who kind of got him into the movement and. You know, Gave him his, you know, he just drop out from UC Santa Cruz when he started out. Um, So Keep getting off the track here, um. Did you anticipate

00:47:53.199 - 00:48:07.699

I mean, you knew that the health benefits were going to be a problem in negotiations and you knew that they did you expect that kickback from the uh the uh the rank and file at that meeting you for it? No, no, no Alex did not expect

00:48:07.699 - 00:48:23.010

it. I sent a note to Blake saying don't worry, it's gonna say. Yeah, I, I didn't expect it. I mean, like I said, with the benefit of time and I'll just like you. Now that as I look back on it, that he was absolutely right, uh,

00:48:23.139 - 00:48:42.610

but I thought if we get the same exact contract that we had before, I mean there's, um, the regular seniority people will get health and welfare in 3 months and uh the others will have to wait 3 seasons and that says, but it's a new company,

00:48:43.030 - 00:48:57.340

so that's just the way it works with a new company. It never occurred to anybody to say, well, since it's a new company, we need to tinker with the language a little bit. That didn't come up in the negotiations, no, because, um, every time we I

00:48:57.340 - 00:49:26.459

brought money up. Uh, we negotiated into the Norcal contract, um, a production incentive which we didn't have with Shaw, and, uh, so the, the more that the The workers produced, they would get a bonus. And sometimes they get as much as 30, 40 cents an hour

00:49:26.909 - 00:49:47.489

because they were so good. Mhm. Did it actually, I mean, in practice, did people actually get those bonuses? Yeah, in fact, uh, David Gill said, ouch. He says, let me, let me buy it from you. And he says, um, this, I can't sell it fast enough.

00:49:48.659 - 00:50:08.610

Mhm. Well, I want to clear up the whole thing about the strike fund, um. There were 2 funds. There was one that the striker committee basically operated that Chavela was in charge of, uh, and basically this. There'd be a benefit that this one of the support

00:50:08.610 - 00:50:21.729

committees would put on or, uh, I know actually I've I've seen several leaflets in Northern California, you know, the Bay Area Sport Committee put out that said send your contributions to and then gave Shave's address. I didn't know anything about that. They never reported to me,

00:50:22.810 - 00:50:39.169

I never knew how much they had. I mean you, you did sit in on the, uh, the strikers committee meetings where Shave would do his reports and that kind of stuff. Mm, no, no. I only sat on the strikers committee, uh. Meetings Where the money was

00:50:39.169 - 00:50:55.550

gonna come out of the, the, the union, OK. Yeah, how often did you go to those meetings? I mean, they happen pretty much every, every Monday night, right? Uh, every Sunday, every Sunday. We used to meet on Sundays. Carlos Luna was kind of like the chairman

00:50:55.550 - 00:51:12.820

of the strikers Committee, the, the $5 assessment. 00, you're talking about that, yeah, yeah. So that was the one that you would, but the that was the, the, the strike fund committee, uh, the one that had two representatives from each plant, and, and did you, I

00:51:12.820 - 00:51:36.030

mean, you got, um, how regular were people about contributing to that that I mean do people do 5 bucks, you know, it was something that, um. Um, The crusading people never paid into it. Um, the shop people, when they went back to work, they, they refused

00:51:36.030 - 00:51:59.000

to pay into it. How come you think because there was the volcanic people were so. Violent against them for settling. Oh they were you know they were, you know, they were throwing rocks at their cars and stuff. I said there's a lot of bad bad blood.

00:51:59.689 - 00:52:23.449

You know the only the only the only. The only people that kept that fund alive. Was Green Giant, not, not one person. Uh Never stop paying. Until the end. That's interesting. Most of the money that went into Chela's fund, I assume was just contributed by outsiders.

00:52:23.530 - 00:52:43.590

You don't know, um, so when you talk about that letter that um Dwayne Beason sent saying this isn't kosher, you're referring to the strike fund. You're not referring to the thing that Shavella was doing, that little rump, yeah, OK, and that was, I'll have to go

00:52:43.590 - 00:52:58.459

back and look at the letter again. Um, I know there was a little flurry of leaflets that came out at the very beginning of the strike where somebody, I don't know who, maybe it was Jose Lopez was implying that some hanky panky was going along with

00:52:58.459 - 00:53:18.070

that $5 a week assessment, you know. Um And I actually showed it to Joe. When I, you know, interviewed him one of the times I interviewed him and he said, you know, this is petty stuff. I mean people were suspicious. People didn't know what to think.

00:53:18.199 - 00:53:36.179

Nobody was in charge at that point. There were all sorts of accusations flying around, but in the grand scheme of things it's rather small potatoes. I gathered there were no, there was no questioning about that fund afterwards. No, not at all. I mean, I. Turn that

00:53:36.179 - 00:53:55.639

thing off, but I We just off the record. OK, let's put it on pause. Yeah, you were mentioning that uh there was a lot of animosity after Shaw settled it between the Shaw people and the Watsonville County. One thing I noticed. When Shaw was still out,

00:53:55.889 - 00:54:10.879

I mean, every day practically the register would have some little item in the police blotter column about, you know, some car being trashed or somebody's windshield being broken. And I noticed that considering that the majority of strikers for Watsonville County, most of the vandalism seemed to

00:54:10.879 - 00:54:30.550

be directed at Shaw people. And I assume that's because at least some of them were. Uh, Shaw workers who had decided to cross the picket line. And their coworkers knew who they were, knew where they lived, knew what kinds of cars they drove. Is that correct

00:54:30.550 - 00:54:47.899

in your opinion? I mean we're guessing here, but. Possibility, yeah. Because, um, it seems like, you know, I mean they they the people would come out of the Washingtonville canning plant and they'd hightail it out of town, they'd go back to Seaside or wherever, you know,

00:54:47.939 - 00:55:05.489

as quick as they can get out of town. But the Shah people were more identifiable and the other thing is this is something that Frank Barday told me, he said, you know. We didn't realize at the time that the Shah strike was actually already lost simply

00:55:05.489 - 00:55:20.370

because they had enough people who were crossing the picket line who knew what they were doing. That you know production had not stopped there. They were still able to maintain something resembling production, whereas in Watsonville County it was just total chaos, you know, pallets being dumped

00:55:20.370 - 00:55:41.449

on the floor and you know, and that's one of the reasons why I believe Steve Shaw was able to convince um, Alex. Yeah, that makes sense. That you haven't got your troops under control, so drive a harder bargain, right? Yeah, that makes perfect sense, you know,

00:55:42.389 - 00:55:59.530

production's coming up all the time and and. Now, you know, one of the things I've been struggling with the last couple of days is I've been trying to figure out a concise way to explain this whole notion of pattern bargaining, you know. Shaw settles the settlement

00:55:59.530 - 00:56:15.219

reflects the particular. Conditions that show and then everybody else has to accept the same thing. Right, you know, and I know that you and Alex had to go plant by plant and try to overcome the resistance of each plant because nobody liked the idea of taking

00:56:15.219 - 00:56:34.949

a pay cut, you know, um, I guess the, the resistance was strongest as Chris said he. But the other thing is that there was a story in the Santa Cruz Sentinel. Came out in October, about 2 months into the strike. I suspect the guy he was

00:56:34.949 - 00:56:50.159

interviewing was that guy who was the head of the employers association. You told me about him. I've forgotten his name now. Charles, yeah. But he didn't identify himself with the article, but he was, you know, trashing more console or everything well. He said this guy is

00:56:50.159 - 00:57:11.030

trying to destroy the industry. You know, I respect Dick Shaw. At least he got, he came by a situation honestly, he's just made some mistakes, but consul is just, uh, you know, they were the best of best of friends, but Charles um. He used to negotiate

00:57:11.030 - 00:57:37.969

for all the processors and in 1982 when council pulled what he did, the association broke up because neither he Neither he nor king. Um, we're willing to or were unable to change more council's mind, and he went I more. Well, it was more King's fault than

00:57:37.969 - 00:57:52.530

Cas. Calas could only advise you and say, look, if you don't, if you do that, we're gonna kick you out of the association and coo wouldn't give a shit about that. But King just stopped that, uh, the workers from the spelling of his name C A

00:57:55.689 - 00:58:17.439

L L. E R OS and the first name was Charles. Well, he said in this interview, you know, we actually did have a game plan for 85. and consul sat in on the early meetings, you know, and gave us to understand he'd go along with it,

00:58:17.520 - 00:58:32.179

that we were going to. Try to hold the line on wages, you know, no cuts. The union won't stand for it. We'll try to keep the wages at 706, maybe cut back benefits a little bit, and we'll gradually try to restore parity over a long period

00:58:32.179 - 00:58:48.199

of time. And The first one to break ranks was Shaw because he was in a panic. He was losing so much money and he wanted parity immediately, and then when he demanded parity with Shaw with the consul, Conso promptly dropped his offer down to $465 an

00:58:48.199 - 00:59:03.159

hour. And you know at that point and implemented that, but yeah, but what he said was if if we'd all stuck together. We could have basically gotten 706 for everybody, and if the union had objected or tried to get more, then we could have, could have

00:59:03.159 - 00:59:24.850

had an industry-wide strike. We were prepared to do that, but Console and Shaw just messed everything up because they basically. You know, are acting on their own, you know. So It's, it's interesting to me because, uh, one of the things that, that, that, um, Frank kept

00:59:24.850 - 00:59:37.030

pushing for during the strike is the only we're going to win this thing is if all the plants go out. Oh yeah, oh yeah, oh yeah, that, I mean this, that's he gets such a hard on general strikes, gentle strength. The boy got the shit out

00:59:37.030 - 00:59:59.639

of him and gentle strength, and he, he gets off on that shit. Well, I mean, it's like what's interesting me is there would have been an industry-wide strike if the association had held its ranks together and there had been an inability to reach an agreement, um,

00:59:59.649 - 01:00:18.290

but it's just like the situation had changed so totally. You know, I mean in the end, I think um. But do you think that the local in Modesto's gonna pull their people out on strike because more council um implemented a contract for 65 and they're still

01:00:18.290 - 01:00:35.260

getting 706. They're not gonna. Well, I actually talked to a guy in Santa Cruz, you know, who worked on the on the support committee there who has some background, and I, I said, you know, what do you think about all this general strike talk? I mean.

01:00:36.350 - 01:00:46.729

And he said, you know, if you don't have people in the plants calling for it, it's not going to happen. The only way you can make something like that happen is if you have a base in each of the plants that's affected, otherwise it's just, you

01:00:46.729 - 01:01:02.540

know, it's a dear sweet thought. That's that's the one thing that part you never understood. You're only as strong as the as the people make you. If the people are clamoring like they were clamoring to go out on the street, they just had it. They wanted

01:01:02.540 - 01:01:20.080

to go on strike. If you have that, then you can do most anything. But if you, if you just come on, come on, let's, let's go on strike because your brothers and sisters in, in Watsonville are suffering. That's pretty tough, tough the people did vote down

01:01:20.080 - 01:01:43.010

the contract, and they, they did take 2 weeks without a paycheck. How do you account for that? I mean, it wasn't just because, you know, Joe was out there. There there was, there were some activists in Acoetti, uh, who were in the TDU movement. Do you

01:01:43.010 - 01:02:12.040

know their names? Uh, God, Jorge. Jesus Christ. Uh, Joey was good friends with Joe and, and, and ended up um. They, they ended up um almost just the cops in the end. Because um I, I don't know, he gave Joe Fahey a problem to solve for

01:02:12.040 - 01:02:29.879

him a grievance, and Joe wouldn't, couldn't do it, didn't do it, or whatever, and he said he was gonna take him to the NLRB, blah blah blah. And then, um, Joe says, don't, don't threaten me, just do it. Do whatever you're gonna do, but don't waste

01:02:29.879 - 01:02:50.399

your time threatening me, um, Jorge. I think probably everybody who's ever been a shop steward has had at least one experience like that. I mean it's just what am I paying my dues for, you know, yeah, yeah yeah. Um, I heard that once or twice, um.

01:02:51.699 - 01:03:07.100

So, um, but see, let me, yeah, I don't wanna confuse you. I know you've got all these, but let me tell you how I, I got close to, um, David. Yeah, do that. I didn't realize I'd cut you off. Uh, but, uh, I don't think you

01:03:07.100 - 01:03:36.010

can use this, but just to show you how a small town can help you. Um, Jeff Gildas is, um, David Gill's Um, attorney. And his wife was working. At Wasel County. What was the name again? Jeff Gillis. F J E F F G I L L

01:03:36.010 - 01:04:02.830

I S. G I L L E S. OK. His wife was working at uh Watts of Mechanic. I, I don't think you can use this, the attorney for David Gill, yeah, and more counsel. Uh, try to move in on her. Mhm. And uh he was buying

01:04:02.830 - 01:04:24.929

her flowers and all that stuff and wanted to take her up on the airplane and so Jeff Gillis didn't like Bor Castle at all. And I think she was pregnant at the time. So That connection got me even closer to um To David Hi Um, And

01:04:24.929 - 01:04:43.709

then The lady that lives Kitty corner from me, she's really poor health. Her name is Katie Winter. Oh yeah, she comes up in the, um, that's something else I want to ask you about. She was working in the grading department, yeah, and she was one of

01:04:43.709 - 01:05:00.000

the people who blew the whistle on the console. She and uh yeah, she and Fernando Ramirez. I wanted to ask you about him. Fernando was his name, not Fernando. OK, yeah, OK. I is he around still? I don't know. I haven't seen him in ages. Yeah,

01:05:00.080 - 01:05:17.719

I mean, I, I find him fascinating just that. Uh, The fact that some bozo shot up his house and barely this killing his kids, and then 6 months later he's Doing the strikers a huge favor, you know, by going to the press and you know, spilling

01:05:17.719 - 01:05:32.300

his guts about all the crap that's going on in the plant. I mean, I, I would love to talk to a guy like that and find out what, yeah, he blamed me on TV that I was responsible for the shooting up his home and all that

01:05:32.300 - 01:05:48.909

and then as his. Met with him. I said, Fernando, how long have I known you? And your brother and your brothers Javier and all that he'd been a union member, hadn't he? Yeah, he just gone into a few years. They forced him to go. How do

01:05:48.909 - 01:06:13.030

you force someone to go to management? Because they put him on salary. Uh-huh. And the game so he was like a superintendent superintendent, but he was a craft employee he was represented by the union and they basically reclassified him as a salaried and took him out

01:06:13.030 - 01:06:31.120

of the union of this was planning for the strike. They planned for the strike unbeknown to us for for quite a while. It's kind of stupid. And I guess there was a lot of stupid impulsive stuff that was done undercover of night. And uh so anyway,

01:06:31.290 - 01:06:50.280

I had him because we've been friends forever, good guy, good guy, and then this lady, of course, and it took me a while to convince Katie to Fass up, you know, like I talk to her. She's in really, really poor health. That probably shouldn't bug her.

01:06:50.570 - 01:07:15.760

No, she's oxygen tank and all that. But anyway, and. Luckily for us. I, I struck it, I, I struck up a friendship with Don Miller. The guy from the Sentinel, I'm sorry, is this Don Miller? Oh yeah, the reporter from the Sentinel. I mean, he was

01:07:15.760 - 01:07:34.000

really, uh, we became really, really close, yeah. He, he did some very valuable reporting, I think. I mean, it was all, you know, the inside dope about management. It wasn't really, he didn't report from the point of view of the strikers the way, you know, some

01:07:34.000 - 01:07:53.250

of the other reporters did. But he sure made conso look horrible. I mean, from the get-go, and Busco, yeah, oh yeah. Well, there's a swine ball. Oh God, what happened to him after the strike? He left. He didn't work for Gill, right? Well, no, no, no,

01:07:56.260 - 01:08:13.000

no, no, uh, Gi didn't want any part of him. Just trying to remember reading one of the interviews with the striker, uh, early on about commenting on smiley, you know, he, you can still see the cactus on his head. He just doesn't know it's there or

01:08:13.000 - 01:08:37.720

something to that effect. Uh, he ended up working for council again when, when the council opened that, that, that plant in um. On the valley or somewhere with the. So consul opened another plant after the strike. Yeah, yeah, I thought he lost everything in the strike.

01:08:37.930 - 01:09:05.450

Well, he got, he found an investor and opened up a plant in uh. What's the name of the the town where they they packed those olives? Um, black olives. Near Fresno, is it or yeah Sanger Fowler, I don't know. Anyway, I used to know all those

01:09:05.450 - 01:09:21.779

towns I know. Yeah, I know. I had, I had to strike. I know there's a street in the north end of Fresno. It's an Olive Street or something like that, and you know it's. I spent 3 years in Sanger organizing, had a big strike there. Oh

01:09:21.779 - 01:09:43.160

yeah, this, this is off the topic, but what strike was that that you were when you were detailed after the Western Conference? Seabrook Foods. Was that in in Fresno or uh yeah. Do you know anybody uh there now? In Sanger, yeah, well, I probably do, but

01:09:43.160 - 01:10:01.339

it was, yeah, I'll tell you why, um. Esperanza Torres is there now and she was willing to talk to me, but um. Her English is not good and my Spanish is elch and I, I can't. See myself asking somebody to drive 3 hours each way with

01:10:01.339 - 01:10:19.149

me to talk to her, you know, but I'd love to, you know, um. I get the feeling like she's interested. She wound up working for the um local late 90, didn't she? She was she was working for the international for a while. And I guess she

01:10:19.149 - 01:10:48.470

got involved in that kind of factional struggle that happened uh right around the time Alex died. Yeah. Union is unforgiving sometimes worse than normal, yeah, yeah, you almost have to be, you have to have a taste of it to understand it. Um, Well, So anyway, with,

01:10:48.509 - 01:11:18.379

with the, um, a good reporter and um And the connections that I still had with uh Katie and uh uh um Debbie Lerman and um. Fernando Ramirez. We were we able to crack. And expose Watimoaning and that gave the impetus. For the buyers and the bank

01:11:18.379 - 01:11:37.000

to pull the plug on, on, on more coil because they said look. Now they have now the bank had a reason. This is my logic. The bank now has a reason to pull the to call the loan in because they're running a shitty planning shitty product

01:11:37.000 - 01:11:52.810

and they didn't know about that, of course, and, and, um, so when they, that's why they call in their loan. You know, I've, I've read and reread Miller's exposes and I'm still a little confused about what it actually was going on. One thing I got the

01:11:52.810 - 01:12:11.109

impression of is that fire that burned down the cold storage warehouse in October of '85. Um, There actually was. That was an inside job. Yeah, exactly, and one of the pickets, I think, told a reporter from the Registered Paharon that, you know, there's no reason in

01:12:11.109 - 01:12:27.600

the world where we why we would do that. Somebody, you know, they did, and it turned out to be true, right? They were trying to collect a little insurance money, yeah, and they did. Um, they did it. They, they, yeah, boy, because according to the press

01:12:27.600 - 01:12:40.919

accounts, the insurance company was fighting tooth and nail. They were fighting tooth and nail, but they ended up paying because it was a lady adjuster that came and talked to me in my office and, you know, this, we're not gonna pay. This is, this is, this

01:12:40.919 - 01:12:56.669

is as phony as as uh as can get. And uh I says, well, all I can tell you is that we didn't do it. There'd be no reason for us to do that. God, we're gonna. Why do you say there'd be no reason for us to

01:12:56.669 - 01:13:19.220

do it? I mean, um, because it didn't hurt or he didn't have any in there, did he? It was just his equipment. It was, it was they had an IQ instant instant quick frozen IQF but they put the strawberries and. By the time it gets from

01:13:19.220 - 01:13:41.279

here to the couch, they're already frozen. So there was not, there wasn't anything that was perishable there. Mhm, just the machinery. But they claimed that they lost some um. From produce didn't they when they put the claim in. Uh, they, they, uh, they claim loss of

01:13:41.279 - 01:13:59.299

business, and I, I forget all the details, but they, they, they got a substantial amount of money, a couple of million, I think. When that plant burned down, you mean, and yet it was obviously worth it to them to do it. Um, I, I don't have

01:13:59.299 - 01:14:18.250

enough of a criminal mind to understand that. Can you, you know, um. Like I say, uh, After the strike, a lot of things came out. Um, you had Smiley on doing coke, you had coil doing coke. A lot of those guys were doing coke. So, so

01:14:18.250 - 01:14:39.330

you did have sober minds at the helm, so they say, oh look. Why don't we burn this place down? We'll get a couple 2 million bucks or whatever they, and it, it's gonna be bad publicity for the strikers. Fuck them. We'll blame the strikers. We'll get

01:14:39.330 - 01:15:06.470

money and Well, I'm just thinking that um. Seems like most of the vandalism, most of the stuff that was done was either directed at the scabs or was directed at the trucks or bringing stuff in. You know, um, I'm just trying to think um. I mean,

01:15:06.509 - 01:15:20.899

I know. Probably turn the tape recorder off. I'm gonna talk about this stuff. Back to square one here, um, I think I'm clear on the whole thing about the strike fund that the whole corresponds with bees and, and that was a reference to the fact that

01:15:20.899 - 01:15:33.229

King set up the. $5 a week assessment thing improperly that he had a separate bank account rather than having to come out of the Union general fund. It was not really a big deal in other words, yeah, and it didn't refer to that fund that was

01:15:33.229 - 01:15:47.319

operating that hardship fund not at all. Well, I don't know that you don't know what was doing. No, I don't know what took back, uh, he sent you a letter, you know, with one of those right around, you know, in the beginning of February when you're

01:15:47.319 - 01:16:04.120

getting blitzed with all those, you know, um. He suggested making John Blake kind of have some kind of special status to kind of function as the head of the union temporarily, and he made noises to you about a trustee and you guys were exchanging and he

01:16:04.120 - 01:16:19.540

says that if you don't agree to this, I I I have no choice but to trusteeship. I asked him about that. I said, were you serious about that? And he said, No, I just want to make sure that they Settled, you know, but it sounds like

01:16:19.540 - 01:16:42.350

when this stuff was going on, the settlement was not in the offing yet, um, that they were just sort of preparing to kind of extricate themselves from the thing when when. Console went broke. What I mean, As early as April 1986, if you read, um, I'm

01:16:42.350 - 01:17:16.799

sure, by the way, did you write that or did Alex, Alex, Alex here. It's pretty, pretty, um, much tells you what they, what they were thinking. If JC 7 is going to end up administering any negotiated settlement and return to work agreement, It should also assume

01:17:16.799 - 01:17:43.620

control of both the conduct of the strike effort and the negotiations. You know, I completely missed that. You can, you can, I mean, I, these guys right from the start, they just didn't want to spend that much money. Uh, You know, I always I'm doing what

01:17:43.620 - 01:18:05.799

I said I wasn't going to do today, which is sort of um. My take on Alex. Is that um. He figured the Strike was not going to win unless the international and the Western Conference supported it, not just with words but with material support, and that

01:18:05.799 - 01:18:21.350

he had to play his cards very carefully to keep them involved. And actually that confidential report that he sent to Chuck when he first came down here, I don't know if you've seen that or not. Well, it's, it's, you know, it's fascinating. I mean. It's in

01:18:21.350 - 01:18:35.649

the archives at San Francisco State. I mean, I'll be happy to, since it's it's there, I'll be happy to mail you a. Email you a copy of it, but you know, reading it, I was, you know, when I first interviewed him, he said if you do

01:18:35.649 - 01:18:51.660

nothing else, I want you to read this report. Um, He basically said King has lost control of the local. You know, nobody can stand him. He's off drunk all the time. He hasn't showed up at a meeting in a year, you know, and so forth and

01:18:51.660 - 01:19:04.490

so on. He said there are some rank and file people there who were prepared to. Who who want the teamsters who want to see the teamsters to stay involved, they, the people have their shit together. They're not going to cross the picket line. They, they have

01:19:04.490 - 01:19:22.060

what it takes to win the strike, but they need support from the union to do it. And you know, Chuck forwarded the report to Arnie Weinmeister with a little cover letter that says Um We have to pay close attention to this or TDU is going to

01:19:22.060 - 01:19:36.180

make us look bad. That was the way Chuck was sort of plan it and. I, I figured, you know, Weinmeister doesn't give a damn about what happens in the canneries, but if you raise the specter of the, the TDU sort of making hay out of the

01:19:36.180 - 01:20:00.060

Weiner was mad at me anyway because uh when I went to the convention. And I was one of two people, Lou Riga and I both. Um, spoke against him getting um. Uh Severance Bay. Memeister. Oh, this, he's gonna retire and he's gonna get severed in Spain.

01:20:00.850 - 01:20:19.459

When was this wasn't in 86 though, was it? I thought he had just come into the leadership of the Western Conference in '86. Hadn't he just replaced Andy Anderson then? I mean, I can see that coming up later, you know, when Carrie was. Well, Kerry abolished

01:20:19.459 - 01:20:41.490

the Western Conference, didn't he? Right all the conference, but I, I believe it was the 8 conference, he was asking uh for um Serpa because he was gonna retire and I spoke yesterday Italian I says. You haven't got that money. You make so much money already

01:20:41.490 - 01:21:03.319

and the poor local unions like, like, like us, we're, we're struggling with a blah blah blah. So anyway, he. When he went back to Washington DC and uh they, they spoke about the strike, he, he voted to end it. To end the strike benefits. Uh, to

01:21:03.319 - 01:21:25.910

local 912 and was never forgave me for speaking in public against, against the. This is all new to me. Um, God, I. Because the con the convention was in May of '86. And you know, I mean this, this, you know, the benefits continued right up until,

01:21:26.279 - 01:21:44.000

you know. February 28th of 87 when went out officially went out of business. And at that point, I guess, you know, there would have been a whole process to go through before you could formally. Initiate a strike against Gill. I mean, everything was kind of in

01:21:44.000 - 01:22:08.759

limbo then. Um, So I don't know. Um, Have you seen that? You, you've seen Silver's movie, right? Yeah, I am. Go ahead, say it. I don't crazy about it either. I mean, it's got some wonderful footage in it. He's a good cinematographer. Uh, I don't like

01:22:08.759 - 01:22:31.129

his analysis. I mean I He's entitled to his opinion, but uh he is not right. Well, I, I interviewed him and um I think the problem with both him and Cruz, who he regards as his mentor, is that they don't really know very much about unions.

01:22:32.649 - 01:22:49.149

You know, um. And uh you know I, I think Bartay knows something about it. I think there were a lot of people working on that Watsonville support committee who had enough back, including Joe's ex-wife, you know, she was an SEIU organizer, and you know I mean

01:22:49.149 - 01:23:09.439

they, they knew something about this stuff, but I think Cruz was really the big spark plug of that committee, and she just was not. She had no background in the labor movement whatsoever, you know. Cruz Gome, my God. I mean, you know, I finally tracked her

01:23:09.439 - 01:23:30.839

down. I'm hoping she'll. Talk to me for the same reason I, you know, said a few minutes ago I want to try to talk to everybody. A lot of people liked her. If Silber knew anything about me, he would. If you wanted to. Uh, He could

01:23:30.839 - 01:23:52.589

do a drive over to Sanger, California and look at the Herald, the files, the organizing that I did, how long it took it took to organize the strike that went on for 18 months and um. And that uh even the newspaper was saying that where's the

01:23:53.200 - 01:24:13.279

and the the head of the union has never been seen all of that stuff. So The only reason I'm, I'm I'm telling you about that, uh, about this, uh, about that strike is that I did all that I could. I was there representing the Western Conference

01:24:13.279 - 01:24:41.979

that that organizing drive was for the Western Conference and um fucking that. Um, Uh, what's his name, and the guy that was Andy Anderson, that was his baby in 1978. He's, we were doing that for him. And, and if people know how difficult it was. For

01:24:41.979 - 01:25:04.459

me to One individual, no help from local 912, not even another business agent. Uh, to deal with, uh, uh, 1000 people, nobody from the Western Conference to give you a hand. So I started organizing the colleges and, um. They got all pissed off with me and

01:25:04.459 - 01:25:21.009

we're gonna screw and tattoo me because I, uh, organized the march with Cesar Chavez, and we marched in Sanger, the red flags and the blue flags and blue jackets and all that. Uh, Chuck Mack, uh, Chuck Mac was there. Dwayne Beason was there and his wife.

01:25:21.339 - 01:25:37.069

They were there and, um, anyway. So it's always pretty good about Chuck yeah, about, you know, being seen, you know, even if it was not considered kosher by the international, you know, and you could do that kind of thing without pissing anybody off. That was his

01:25:37.069 - 01:26:04.160

genius, you know, he was, he was, you know, I always thought of Chuck, but he, he also, um. Got pissed off because I criticized the, the, the conference uh on a radio interview, the Western Conference, when was that? 79. 0, OK, yeah, yeah, it was a

01:26:04.160 - 01:26:24.990

long time ago. Just, uh, since Cruz came up, I'll ask you, I know, um, you pretty much declared him and Frank, uh, persona non grata in the Union Hall around the end of June. Was that because of their role in the Crossetti? Our negotiations. Something must

01:26:24.990 - 01:26:38.040

have provoked that because you have, you know, I mean, everybody was running in and out of that hall during the strike right up until the end. I don't know if I if I bar bardicy, yeah, you did. I did, yeah, I've got the letter, yeah, it's

01:26:38.040 - 01:26:56.919

just that you two are no longer welcome in the hall bashing me because I've never been that mad at Bartiy, but Cruz Gomez was so freely. Thorn in my ass. Oh, that bitch. She would go to the food bank with uh uh some a crate of

01:26:56.919 - 01:27:13.555

eggs and then try to run the show and and uh then uh Lydiaerma and all those people would come and complain to me he says we don't need their eggst it go away. We don't need the guy. And anyway, she finally asked her about that, I

01:27:13.555 - 01:27:30.790

guess she didn't mention it when I, you know, she talked about a lot about Lou Gray when I interviewed her a nanny and she didn't surprise me. um. I actually could have talked to her a lot longer probably. Well, she must be getting on an age.

01:27:31.890 - 01:27:46.729

Well, she was pretty sure I mean it was 4 or 5 years ago that I talk to her and her son is still vice president of the local or he's the president. He's the, yeah, um, well, uh, so we got to the striker. Chuck seems to

01:27:46.729 - 01:28:06.299

have taken um. You know, we're making pretty good progress here. Francisco that's changed that to Fernando. So you don't remember the circumstances under which uh Frank and Cruz were booted out of the hall. You don't remember doing it. I was like Frank. I don't know why.

01:28:06.470 - 01:28:28.750

Yeah, um, I'm just wondering if that was something that you did at the behest of John Blake. Because I think he was already there by that point. They, they had a a really weird thing going with um. Joe told me this, this rather funny story that

01:28:28.750 - 01:28:46.430

um. They had him and TDU somehow mixed up in their minds with this this screwball group in car. Yeah, which was, which would march them down in front of the police station with signs at depth of the scabs and. They, you know, they advocated, you know,

01:28:46.609 - 01:28:58.930

they were protesting that they didn't have a place on the ballot in the recertification election. They want people to vote for them to represent the workers, you know, the NLRB wouldn't put them on the ballots. They told people to boycott the voting and stuff. I mean

01:28:58.930 - 01:29:19.020

they were just. You know, nut cases. Um, but somehow, uh, Lunday got the impression that Joe was working with them. And Took him for a ride, you know, turned the radio up and said if you fuck up this election, you're going to be, you know. We're

01:29:19.020 - 01:29:28.529

gonna throw you into a ditch somewhere or something to that effect. And you know they got back to the hall and Joe said I walked into the hall and I said it in English, so he'd understand what I was saying. You'll never guess what this guy

01:29:28.529 - 01:29:52.080

just said to me was that Joe Blake, no, it wasn't Blake, it was I I was a little more sophisticated than that. He was the muscle guy. Yeah, yeah, well. The other thing is that I guess there's this leaflet in the in the files at San

01:29:52.080 - 01:30:09.299

Francisco State that Went out under the name of the Watsonville Support Committee. I showed it to Karen and she. Said it sounds like Cruz wrote it, but apparently they showed up to do child care at the veterans hall the day of the vote. And somebody, you

01:30:09.299 - 01:30:25.009

know, from Blake's team basically told them to get out. That they weren't welcome there and that just inspired this whole leaflet about well we must be doing something right if these people are excluded, you know, it was this. But I think once again they thought that.

01:30:26.180 - 01:30:40.890

Anybody who came around was probably there to sabotage the boat. That was kind of the way they looked at it. It didn't occur to them that 99% of the people involved really wanted that boat to sail through, you know, but they just were not. They didn't

01:30:40.890 - 01:30:53.720

know the territory. They didn't know what was coming off. They didn't know the people they were dealing with. And you know when you don't know what you're doing, you bring out your brass knocks. And, and, and, uh, Blake was a fish out of water. I mean,

01:30:53.899 - 01:31:11.870

every day with that. Uh, suit, an expensive suit and a red carnation, I mean in Watsonville, Jesus Christ Chevalla told me that. I, I asked him about Eddie Rodriguez. He's the kind of guy, you know, you're eating lunch, you know, he'd come up behind you and

01:31:11.870 - 01:31:34.370

reach over and take a taco off your plate. Yeah doesn't bad mouth people, you know, he's a very nice guy, but, you know, I was interviewing Esperanza Contreras. It turns out she came from the same town as him and his family was wealthy and hers was

01:31:34.370 - 01:31:51.660

poor, so she was intimidated by him at first, but. You know, she said during the strike. You know, and he had just died, I guess when I interviewed her and she she just burst into tears in the middle of the interview. Yeah, such a nice man.

01:31:51.950 - 01:32:08.529

He was a nice guy and um. You know, I think, uh. I think even people who disagreed with him trusted him, you know, questioned his integrity. Well, let's see, I mean, are you? There was this is something I want to ask Sherie about when I interview

01:32:08.529 - 01:32:23.959

her too because I know she worked a lot on the boycott ideas. There's a whole folder with her name on it and uh Cheri Tang, uh, uh, in Alex's papers at San Francisco State. Apparently she submitted this very detailed bunch of suggestions for the boycott, and

01:32:23.959 - 01:32:38.839

it sounded kind of the sort of thing that the farm workers would have done. You know, you have people who are not connected with the union. show up at supermarkets and tell people not to shop there, you know, that kind of thing, and you know I

01:32:38.839 - 01:32:51.759

get the feeling that Alex was giving all this stuff very serious consideration. He was just worried about secondary boycott charges being brought against the union, and he was trying to figure out what you can get away with what you couldn't. In the end, he settled on

01:32:51.759 - 01:33:10.450

basically putting all the eggs in the basket of getting the Teamster funds out of the Wells Fargo accounts. Actually that was Jackie Pra's idea. Well, good for him. Believe it or not, when, when Jackie Presser found out that Andy Anderson was the brains behind more console,

01:33:11.169 - 01:33:25.680

I mean, he did a 180 when he wanted to, where he wanted, he wanted to just kill the strike and cut our losses. He says no way. He said right away he sent us t-shirts, and then he said, um, he said to Chuck back, I says,

01:33:25.770 - 01:33:49.229

um, I'm gonna find out how many joint coils in California. Um, do have, uh, bank accounts with Wells Fargo. So he did a study nationwide and the story goes, I don't know how true it is that he did. Jackie Press, he got to the chairman of

01:33:49.229 - 01:34:07.169

the bank and said, Hey, we'll divest from your bank if you don't pull the trigger on this. But he said, now this I got from Alex. He says the bank will never say. That they, they give, they give in that they give in to the teamsters

01:34:07.830 - 01:34:26.310

because we got like a billion dollars I guess nationwide or more billions of dollars I guess. Well, I've got that whole correspondence between the bank and and uh Chuck Mac actually um it's all on file at San Francisco State. It's interesting reading. Um, you want to

01:34:26.310 - 01:34:45.799

go up there and go through that stuff, you know, take a trip down memory lane. There's some good stuff up there. Carl Einhardt. What's the the name of the. He was the CEO and the CEO of Wells Fargo he wasn't the guy that um. Uh, there

01:34:45.799 - 01:35:00.000

was a guy with an Italian name, I think, who was exchanging letters with, uh, with Alex and Chuck. Um, they kept saying, you know, do you realize that um. They're defaulting on all their payments to these growers and you know they're doing this, and they're doing

01:35:00.000 - 01:35:12.520

that, they're selling bad stuff on the market, you know, you're, you're going to get caught holding the bag and. Uh, he kept saying it's none of our business what our customers do with the money we lend them, you know, we can't get involved in that, you

01:35:12.520 - 01:35:27.799

know, uh, I guess at one point Chuck offered to meet with him. He said, I respectfully declined, you know, and so forth. But the story Chuck um tells that when he was back in Hawaii. In February I guess it was it turned out the bank was

01:35:27.799 - 01:35:41.970

having some kind of a meeting. Over in the next room. And Chuck has picked up the phone and said, uh, you know, here we are, you know, it's really embarrassing to me to have to explain to my members why we have all this money invested in

01:35:41.970 - 01:36:00.009

your bank when you're. You know, investing in in Watsonville canning and The guy just said, Mr. Mack, please don't call me again. Uh, we're, we're taking care of this, I assure you just don't call me again. I didn't know that, and that was it. They, and

01:36:00.009 - 01:36:20.680

I guess they pulled the plug, you know, I didn't know that. So Um, I think what he wanted was stop bugging me and stop worrying about it was the gist of it because we can't let any of this become public, but you wouldn't confidential, you know,

01:36:21.430 - 01:36:47.720

you know that more canceled after that, um, the strike ended and he went broke and all that, he sued Wells Fargo. Under the Conlon decision. And collected millions of dollars, did he? The common decision is a grower from this area and um he filed suit against

01:36:47.720 - 01:37:09.819

Wells Fargo by and saying that. You shouldn't have loaned me the money when you knew already that I had no means of repaying the loan. Yeah, it sounds like one of those bundled mortgage deals from 2008 did exactly the same. He based this lawsuit against, uh,

01:37:09.859 - 01:37:30.600

Wells Fargo on the Conlon decision and got money for it, and that's how he opened the plant in Lindsay, Lindsey, California. Lindsey, OK, yeah, yeah, that is, that's near Fresno, yeah, and um. Smiley Berdusco went to work for him there and then um they had a

01:37:30.600 - 01:37:51.509

falling out, so they arrested Smiley Berdusco. Carrying computers out of the plant. It can that you had some juice or something, yeah, sure that Margarita Martinez. She was a supervisor, right, and she spoke at one of the rallies, I think Bob Johnson featured her in one

01:37:51.509 - 01:38:11.689

of his articles, um. Actually, I thought he was talking about Gloria at first because he talked about how well dressed she was, you know, but it turned out it was somebody else, um. She was on the negotiating committee at Watsonville Canon. I thought it was. Gloria

01:38:11.689 - 01:38:32.120

Chavelo, uh, Carlos, uh, Cui, and, um, I, I think Margarita attended a couple of sessions. Yeah, yeah. Were any of them aware of the whole thing over health benefits? See, it sounds to me like that issue didn't even come up. I mean, the one time I

01:38:32.120 - 01:38:44.640

sat on a negotiating committee, you know, I just kind of sat there. You know, and didn't I let the president of the union do all the heavy lifting, and I assume that you have the rank and file there so you can say that the rank and

01:38:44.640 - 01:39:11.020

file is there. You know, um. Well, whenever we had negotiations, we would negotiate and then caucus and then uh. Uh, I or Chavelo. Depending on how bad my vocal cords have been. Used or abused? Um, we would explain to the committee members that didn't speak English

01:39:11.020 - 01:39:29.339

all that well, but the question of the health benefits never came up. No, no, not until Joe raised it in the meeting. That's right. And I mean, according to the newspaper accounts. There was a lot of Arguing back and forth in the parking lot and in

01:39:29.339 - 01:39:42.810

the hall for 2 days until that big meeting where the vote took place, you know, there were leaflets floating around. I mean there was a lot of discussion, it seems like that whole. Do we go back to work with those, you know, without the, without the

01:39:42.810 - 01:40:03.979

health benefits. Um, Were you Aware of any of that? Were you, you know, did you participate in any of those discussions or, you know, after the uh postponement of the uh the vote, I mean, I immediately before they voted to postpone. Before they voted to postpone,

01:40:04.169 - 01:40:26.180

you had an agreement on Tuesday. The vote was on Friday. On Friday they voted to postpone, and you went back into negotiations. I, I was only aware that Joe Fahey was, um, uh, talking to people to be against the settlement. Did um And I mean the

01:40:26.180 - 01:40:42.450

accounts of, you know, it's like Carlos went back and forth on it. Um, Gloria said, I hope it's accepted because I'm exhausted or something to that effect, you know, we've been through hell, um, and then, you know, she wound up during the hunger strike when I

01:40:42.450 - 01:40:59.680

got voted down, you know, um. I got the impression that it was really. Up for grabs at that point that a lot of people had mixed feelings, you know, everybody wanted to go back to work, nobody wanted to go back to work without the benefits. Do

01:40:59.680 - 01:41:23.850

you have to get that? No, it's OK um. Actually, Joe Fahey and uh Gloria Betancourt. I believe And Kua Came to my house so they came, they came with Joe that night. Yeah, they came here and I never knew that I knew Joe came, yeah, and

01:41:23.850 - 01:41:43.919

they said the mechanics, the floor leaders, all the key people are going back to work and, um, that happens and so you know, it's so Joe brought Cuca and Gloria with him. I, I believe so. He had drafted the, uh, yeah, and I signed it and

01:41:43.919 - 01:42:05.049

then nobody, nobody went in until, yeah, well, that was important. Yeah, but that's, you know, and that's what I was, I told Joe. I said, my God, you know, you're playing with people's lives, you know, you're, they're about to break ranks. Joe, did did did did

01:42:05.049 - 01:42:22.129

Gloria Auca have anything to say that night, or were they just along for the ride? Well, they were just saying, no, they were, they were, they were saying that, uh, you know, please, um please sign this letter, please talk to them. Don't don't let them go

01:42:22.129 - 01:42:45.410

across after all this time. They were already at that point, a little later. I think that came later. I think they, they pitched a tent in front of Aurora Trujillo's house almost as soon as the vote took place. I don't know if uh. Um, Uh, Gloria

01:42:45.410 - 01:43:00.930

was in it from the very beginning, but I know that she was, you know, it's like any time they had a statement to make, she'd be the one making it all. Just to judge from the press accounts. There's so much I've lost so much I've lost.

01:43:01.029 - 01:43:15.479

This is where it gets really. Detail oriented, you know, I'm trying my best to describe what happened. Well, you're a lot more familiar with the strike than I am now because everybody tells me you know I was, I was up tossing the bags in Oakland where

01:43:15.479 - 01:43:31.689

all this was going on. I mean the one thing I did was I went to a few support committee meetings. I went to a few rallies. I remember marching alongside Frank at the Jesse Jackson rally, and we had a pleasant argument, you know. Um, And then

01:43:31.689 - 01:43:46.500

you know we had a a food drive at the post office. They had just had this affirmative action thing for, you know, Hispanics and. They all, you know, kicked in with canned food, you know, I traveled around East Oakland picking up cans one night. But I,

01:43:46.669 - 01:44:06.359

you know, what I heard was all secondhand pretty much. I mean, I went to events. Um, I heard Gloria speak a few times and was very impressed, you know, um. You know she's home on wheels in front of a microphone, um, the picture of her in

01:44:06.359 - 01:44:20.759

the newspaper one, yeah, well, you know, I mean, frankly, I can see why people objected to seeing it on the front page of the paper, but I think it's to their credit they ran it, you know, I mean that that's was I was surprised actually that

01:44:20.759 - 01:44:36.890

the register Poonian coverage was as good as it was. You don't usually see that from a small town newspaper when there's a strike going on. You know, we were very fortunate that the reporters, uh, I mean, they took a liking to us and they, they understood.

01:44:38.129 - 01:44:56.370

That we were in the right. We were not wrong. This was not up to talking about Elizabeth Schilling. Elizabeth Schilling and um the little crippled guy um Lane Lane Walla Wallace, he was the one that, uh, Jose Lopez sat up on him stupid. You don't hit

01:44:56.370 - 01:45:17.970

a reporter. I'm sorry. That's just not and the guy, the guy could barely walk. I mean, I, and they just beat the shit out of him. Yeah. Anyway, maybe one more reason for me not to want to talk to, but, but anyway, um, we, they, they,

01:45:17.990 - 01:45:37.640

uh, they actually took a real interest. It was like a um. Uh, human interest story, it just the, the, the, the plight of the Mexican people working in the cannery is being abused because they got to see firsthand how more count's vanity got the best of

01:45:37.640 - 01:45:57.689

him that he went and leased. I don't know, 78 Cadillacs and so he could go and just just to show us the all that stuff pick up scabs in Cadillacs. He went, he would come to the hall, wouldn't he? Yeah, just to kind of it and

01:45:57.689 - 01:46:13.299

the reporters would see that, uh, would see that says is that, is that the guy that says that he can't afford a a wage increase? Yeah, that's him. Well, I, I actually, there's an editorial that came out, I guess it was right after that, that fire,

01:46:13.379 - 01:46:32.279

you know, at the cold storage warehouse, you know, it was superficially one of those plague on both your houses, editorials that newspapers like to run in such situations, but um. They said the strikers should know that violence and vandalism never solves anything. Uh, Richard Shaw and

01:46:32.279 - 01:46:45.359

Mort Conseil need to know that they have always been coming to the city hat in hand asking for this favor and that favor and so forth, and they've always gotten it because they always claimed they were creating jobs. Well, they're not creating jobs now and they're

01:46:45.359 - 01:47:03.580

costing us millions in police over time. So get your asses to the bargaining table, OK, you owe the I I was amazed. This was like in October of 85, you know. I don't remember reading that. I'm, I'm sure I did, but I don't remember well, I

01:47:03.580 - 01:47:25.140

mean, I was impressed. They spent about 3 times as much space in that editorial lambasting Sean Conso as they did, you know, decrying the violence, you know. Um, I that. Uh. Let's see, um, I just want to make sure. So I was asking you about that

01:47:25.140 - 01:47:40.209

scene in the movie, which you probably don't remember. Yeah, I mean, it's just shows you and Carlos and Chevello huddling, and I think it was right after the vote was taken, and it's not clear what you're talking about and they don't tell you. Um No, I

01:47:40.209 - 01:47:58.140

don't remember. I just thought I'd ask. I mean, um. Were you OK with the way, I mean, I know you actually were really concerned after the Shah settlement that, you know, morale was going to go into the toilet and would be very hard to kind of

01:47:58.140 - 01:48:13.609

sustain the strike. I think you were already worried about the possibility of decertification. And you were, you sent Chuck Mack a letter saying, you know, something has to happen to make the strike visible aside from just people hanging on the picket line and watching the scab

01:48:13.609 - 01:48:31.890

trucks roll in and out. And you were urging the joint council to do some kind of an economic sanctions campaign. Um Was that something that? Alex had already thought of and you were just sort of writing it so that, you know, that they would know that,

01:48:32.140 - 01:48:55.459

I mean, where did that idea come from? I, I I think probably some of the um Some of the things that I'd done in Sanger and some of the things that that I that I had tried and worked. Uh, but I You know, when, when King

01:48:55.459 - 01:49:15.700

left, we were completely broke, absolutely broke, cleaned out the coffers before he, before he, he spent every last penny, and I was really concerned that we wouldn't have the wherewithal to, to do anything, you know, like Marcus and make the banners and this without help and

01:49:15.700 - 01:49:31.419

assistance, and we needed to get out the. You know, the, the work to the universities and all that stuff that I have tried before. Um, you had people, you know, you had support committees in town and, and up in San Francisco who are doing that stuff.

01:49:32.540 - 01:49:44.089

Uh, but most of the people that came from San Francisco, I never knew. I mean, I never knew who they were. I mean, they, well, I mean people who are working up in the Bay Area, you know, I mean there was a whole. They would, they

01:49:44.089 - 01:49:57.890

would have meetings at the local hall in San Francisco. I know because I went to, I that's Sheri Sheri, yeah, OK, yeah, I mean, I know Sherie moved down here, you know, during the strike and then went to went to work for 890 afterwards, but, um,

01:49:57.950 - 01:50:13.229

and then she went to law school. I understand. I lost touch with her. I mean, I, I've tracked her down again we're back in Oakland, you know, um, and she's coming over for breakfast next Friday to be interviewed. Um, I think someone told me that she

01:50:13.229 - 01:50:32.450

had, she's now an attorney. Could be. You know her sister's a big, was a big shot politician in San Francisco. She was the county assessor and all that kind of stuff and she's on the board of supervisors, Mabel, yeah. Um is um. A very nice lady.

01:50:32.529 - 01:50:51.200

I like her a lot. She's a little bit too, too, too lefty for me, but She was then, but you know she cared. um, she cared, she cared. That's, yeah, you're absolutely right. I mean, um. Actually, I, I, I, I watched her when they had the

01:50:51.200 - 01:51:11.419

United Food strike over in Salinas. Yeah, OK. Ramirez now, um, did you talk to him at all after that shooting took place? He, he said, why did you guys do that? Uh, yes, I talked to him and explained he approach you or him? I approached him

01:51:11.419 - 01:51:33.259

because I know you put something into that. You know, the local bulletin about, did you write those, by the way, the local 9-12 bulletins or did somebody else do it? no there was um. Rank compilers, there's two brothers, um. Oh God. Norman Hi burger. And his

01:51:33.270 - 01:51:52.600

brother Arnold Arnold, yeah, OK, he was actually one of the original members of the striker committee and then he kind of disappeared pretty early on. Um, so he was the one who worked on, on the, yeah, he, he was in charge of I remember right after

01:51:52.600 - 01:52:10.950

that weekly bullets, yeah, I just remember right after the shooting took place there was a very angry. You know, Paragraph about it in the bullet and, you know. You know, suppose his kids have been hit, you know, you'd have a lot to answer for that kind

01:52:10.950 - 01:52:33.819

of thing. So you approached him after, after the incident took place and talked to him. You want to, can you tell me a little bit about that? I'd actually Well, no, I just simply say that, uh, we had nothing to do with that. And uh We,

01:52:33.950 - 01:52:52.100

we just talked about, you know, how long we've been friends and why would I want to hurt him. I mean, how, how did he take it? He took it well. He took it well, and then I think he. Investigated on on his own and and found

01:52:52.100 - 01:53:13.310

out who it was, but I gather whoever it was was never arrested. No. You know, it, it's funny, I um. I've been poring over all those police reports and it seems like for all of the. Um, people who were cited for breaking the injunction or this

01:53:13.310 - 01:53:33.160

or that, you know, for little petty stuff. The only time they ever. Nailed somebody for doing something actually, you know, seriously violent. They they couldn't even make Gloria's husband, you know, they couldn't even possibly identify him as having done it, um, well, he, he went to

01:53:33.160 - 01:53:54.490

jail. Yeah, he, he, he copped no contest. He's the only one that our good friend of mine, the district district attorney, or he's dead now. He's, I think he's the only one he prosecuted. But our dad, but he bent backwards to help us. I mean, he

01:53:54.490 - 01:54:21.419

just, he wouldn't, he wouldn't process any, uh, oh, is that on? You want me to turn it off? Please got it, but we were not um. The ones that that were causing all the problems, the policemen themselves. With time would come to us and say, man,

01:54:22.270 - 01:54:47.959

You guys are getting the short end of the stick here and um. See, you gotta remember that Morcao was a very prominent Republican in in this town and uh very wealthy, very wealthy and a big donor. To the Republican Party, and he, he, um, He was

01:54:47.959 - 01:55:10.750

anyway he uh through Frank Cosby, the former chief of police, he had ties to people in Washington DC, uh, senators and all that because, um, Frank Cosby went to Santa Clara, uh, with some of those folks. So when when more council. Uh, decided to take the

01:55:10.750 - 01:55:37.520

union on. He had all the um the authorities on his side, the judges and Not the DA. What was Kel's background? Judge Kelsey, the guy who issued the injunction. I don't know. You don't know. No, but in time he became uh a friendly judge. One of

01:55:37.520 - 01:55:54.870

the things that struck me when I interviewed Dwayne Beason, uh, is he still alive? Yeah, yes, and he actually Xeroxed everything in his files about the strike and mailed it to me, you know, yeah, I mean it's people have been very kind. It sort of makes

01:55:54.870 - 01:56:07.899

me feel. Oh, I love that man. I'm, I'm so happy to hear that he's still alive. He's in his 90s, but I think he's still, he's still at it. He seemed pretty lucid when I talked to him. It was a few years ago. I mean it

01:56:07.899 - 01:56:27.930

could change, but. Um, he said it was a quiet strike. And I thought, well, that's a little strange because, you know, I, I knew so many people who were just. You know, hassled by the cops and you know I mean there was this almost daily vandalism

01:56:27.930 - 01:56:41.439

and you know encounter between scabs and you know I mean the women would go on those scab hunts. They'd follow the buses into Salinas and so forth and so on. It was not maybe there wasn't blood in the streets, but there was plenty of stuff going

01:56:41.439 - 01:57:03.270

on and there was plenty of legal action against the strikers as well. And I found myself wondering why he said that, you know. Unless I mean being a teamster's lawyer, he probably was accustomed to stuff that was much worse. Um, well, uh, he probably was making

01:57:03.270 - 01:57:21.819

a comparison between this strike and the one in Sanger um. The one in it was not as quiet quiet and uh did it, did it get rough or was it just a matter of a lot of big public demonstrations? Uh, a lot of public demonstrations and,

01:57:21.830 - 01:57:51.689

uh, lots of stuff that happens, you know, to farmers' equipments and stuff, and, um, but it's, it's interesting because Duane Beason hired uh an attorney by the name of Patrick Szymanski, who became general counsel. Uh, for the Teamsters Union. Um, when Harford took over the union.

01:57:54.160 - 01:58:17.910

And uh Patrick Szymanski cut his teeth in the sagger strike. In fact, uh, Dwayne Beason sent him there and he spent Couple of months, I believe, yeah, yeah. Well, um, I mean, I, uh, one of the things that struck me, it's like I know there was

01:58:17.910 - 01:58:32.649

um a bunch of people who were arrested around in early February, you know, when the police when Medina. You know, sent you that letter saying, you know, no more Mr. Nice guy, we're going to get tough with you people now, uh, if, if you won't let

01:58:32.649 - 01:58:49.879

us into the union hall the chase lawbreaker who's just gonna come in, you know. Um, and I guess there were 19 people, a lot of them were, you know, people around to Frank Barday and stuff. But they decided to contest the charges, and I think they

01:58:49.879 - 01:59:03.859

were all acquitted, and I guess when Joe had his hearing before the Joint Council 7 over that ruckus on Main Street, um, he introduced that as evidence on his behalf as a, you know. I was accused by in a court of law. I was acquitted, you

01:59:03.859 - 01:59:20.979

know, of doing anything wrong that day, you know, that was part of the evidence he gave. Um, The thing is that the point being that that there weren't, there were very few cases, I guess Dalia Mendez wound up bringing a lawsuit and she fought her charge.

01:59:21.100 - 01:59:39.040

I mean she had to fight her charges if you want to keep teaching. Um, I think uh Amdore Bettencourt was, you know, defended by a public defender. Um, I mean, I'm, I'm just thinking that aside from just sort of. You know, there was some sparring going

01:59:39.040 - 01:59:54.839

on between Beason's office and, you know, Mendelssohn vastus and tissue around the terms of the injunction, but there was never really a frontal. Right on. And I'm assuming that it just would have, I want to get your take on this that because I've had people tell

01:59:54.839 - 02:00:13.430

me that most unions in a strike situation are not gonna want to fritter away the resources on legal stuff. That there's just too many other priorities and that you try to avoid. You know, more, uh, legal bills and you have to. Well, that's true, yeah, that,

02:00:13.470 - 02:00:38.770

that, that is true, and that's. Why I have to be very careful. Um, Um, with the instructions you give the, the strikers, the dos and don'ts, and, uh, what, what is really hard for the strikers to understand, those that have never been on strike. is that

02:00:38.770 - 02:01:02.899

they they're all fired up before the strike and the first day of the strike, they blocked the uh The entrances to the Whatever place they're striking and within 24 hours they, they have a temporary restraining order against them and it's so difficult for the union leadership

02:01:02.899 - 02:01:19.779

to say you have to obey this. Uh, orders or you will be arrested and then they start question, well, what good is the union then? Why do we have to stay away? We have to follow the law and look at their scoring the scabs and it's

02:01:19.779 - 02:01:43.600

it's very difficult to explain to people how lopsided, how one side, one sided the laws are against the striking employees members and how much protection the police gives, um. The people that they want to break, break a strike. And it's very, very disheartening to them, and

02:01:43.600 - 02:02:12.140

they, they get very disappointed. Uh, by By the legal system. I mean, you, we have people arrested, um. For throwing tacos, ladies throwing taco, a taco for Christ's sakes at someone, and they call it a missile. Uh, in the. I don't know. It it does seem

02:02:12.140 - 02:02:32.040

like at the beginning of the strike that uh. The police were pretty out of control in the beginning when Ray Belgar was there when Uh, Medina took over. It got a lot better, really, because I, you know, the first I hear of Medina is he's Putting

02:02:32.040 - 02:02:48.410

pressure on you, I guess in February of '86, and saying, you know. Uh, you can't let the Union Hall be a sanctuary for lawbreakers and so forth, and, um, they, you know, there's this report that came out where they were kind of infiltrating that, you know,

02:02:48.419 - 02:03:02.009

that group that was meeting to plan the big demonstrations in in February and. Uh, they have this big intelligence report. They, I think they had a bench warrant out for Frank Barke even though he wasn't anywhere near what was happening, you know, he was home that

02:03:02.009 - 02:03:24.330

day. Um, they arrested Joe, I think several days before anything happened. He was just on his way to this meeting at the unemployment office. I mean they really were. there was a hearing about whether the strikers and you know a bunch of cops just came and

02:03:24.330 - 02:03:34.680

Joe was walking along with about 50 people, I think from the hall to wherever the hearing was, and the cops just sort of picked him out of the crowd and busted him. Uh, and I think he filed a false arrest suit or something like that. I've

02:03:34.680 - 02:03:50.549

got the paperwork on it, and you know, um, he listed Chavela as one of his witnesses, you know, and, um, you know, like I say, Frank was arrested on a bench warrant, I think 2 days after that riot on Main Street. Well, there was a leaflet

02:03:50.549 - 02:04:14.189

that was questionable in fact. That he wrote and said whatever it takes, yeah. And I think that's what the cops used against them. Yeah, yeah, I mean to me. That's the sort of thing that an ACLU lawyer could have a good time arguing about. I mean,

02:04:14.279 - 02:04:30.979

you can say stuff like that. It's, it's hyperbole. It's the sort of thing you use in a leaflet all the time. Uh, But of course if you're a cop and you're looking for an excuse to break something up, you know, use that. I mean, I, you

02:04:30.979 - 02:04:47.890

know, I Read that leaflet. I read over the transcript of Joe's hearing and all that. I actually, the part I remember is where, you know, Leon Alan says to him, Don't you remember me yelling at you? And he says, Joe said, Yeah, but that's not unusual,

02:04:47.979 - 02:05:07.799

you know. Do you remember that? Uh, that was it, uh. Leon filed charges against Bay. Oh, you did too, actually. No, I think you both did. Was just Leon Leon. And uh right at the, at the hearing, I was there at the, the hearing, no, I,

02:05:07.859 - 02:05:22.520

I, um, I read the, the transcript actually of the hearing. I, I, Chuck back let me see it. Um, that was how I kind of got my most detailed account of what happened. You know, the day all that trashing happened on Main Street and everything, you

02:05:22.520 - 02:05:44.589

can you can ask, uh, there's this uh. International trustee Belio and kept asking me in Spanish, what do you wanna do with this guy? What do you want? You want him fired and I wouldn't answer him. Uh, no, I, I said no, but what do you

02:05:44.589 - 02:06:10.109

want to do with it? And I wouldn't answer. And um Fucking dead legal didn't know that Joe Pey speaks Spanish like a native. And Uh, I taught me a lesson that here's this guy who's supposed to be there. And listen to a case impartially and that

02:06:10.549 - 02:06:25.399

I mean from the get go without even hearing one word of testimony, he he's asking me, you wanna get rid of this guy? And I said no. And well, what do you, what do you, what do you want to do with it? I got the impression

02:06:25.399 - 02:06:39.709

that Chuck basically wanted to wrap him on the knuckles and send him on his way. You know, Um, he gives him this little lecture at the end of the hearing. He says, you know, Joe, you realize you're an officer in the union now. You can't operate

02:06:39.709 - 02:06:54.009

with quite the same freedom that you could when you're just a rank and file. You know, you understand that now, don't you? You know, OK, don't, don't make that mistake again, you know, that, that, you know. Gently reproachful and they gave him two weeks of suspension

02:06:54.009 - 02:07:06.799

I believe or something that I never yeah yeah but it was, I mean, I think he expected that he was, you know, that the thing had gotten out of hand and that he was going to have to kind of be the fall guy there. That was

02:07:06.799 - 02:07:26.189

he sort of expected that. I never imposed the the uh the punishment on him and and and that was that particular thing came between uh Leon Ellis and I think that was Leon's idea and to go through that yeah well. Uh, it's, it's interesting. I mean,

02:07:26.470 - 02:07:41.229

uh, last time I talked to Frank Barta, he said, you know, Joe called me at home. I think I was homesick, you know, that day, the day all the ruckus was going on on Main Street. He called me from the union hall and he said, Frank,

02:07:41.270 - 02:07:54.709

it's gotten completely out of hand. People are throwing rocks in the ambulance and Joe, what do you expect me to do about it, you know, I can't stop it, you know, burned my car down and that was that wasn't the same day, was it? That was

02:07:54.709 - 02:08:20.700

much, much later, right. I don't know what it was. There was so much stuff that went on every single day, my God, you know, I mean. You can't You know, the comment I got about that demonstration on February 17th is that, you know, it's the police

02:08:20.700 - 02:08:37.410

were so busy tossing tear gas grenades into the union hall that they completely overlooked the fact that there were a bunch of punks running down Main Street trashing, you know, breaking store windows, you know, they were too busy to be bothered with such trifles. Um, honestly,

02:08:37.490 - 02:08:53.060

um. Do you have any idea who who it was who was doing that stuff on Main Street? Nobody seems to know. No, I really don't, you know. Uh I suspect, you know, since it was a school holiday, there were probably some you know rowdy teenagers down

02:08:53.060 - 02:09:12.819

there. You know, but I also just from what I know, I mean, I, I can't see any of the strikers in daylight going around breaking windows on Main Street. Well, you, you might smack a windshield if it's somebody who's, you know, driving into the plant to

02:09:12.819 - 02:09:32.350

take your job, you know. But, uh, Main Street, you know, it does, it just, it never made any sense to me why, why anyone would do that. Well, You'd spent some time in Berkeley in the early 70s, you'd be familiar with it. I remember seeing that

02:09:32.350 - 02:09:50.069

on TV. I actually shut this down. I think we've pretty much covered what we've got to cover, but um. This has been very good. I mean, if I come up with anything else, I may give you a call, but you know, I gather that your take

02:09:50.069 - 02:10:03.560

on the whole 585 thing is that it was lower than it needed to be, you know, and then once they settled at 585 with Shaw, they had to sort of go through and make everybody else take it too, even if people weren't as deep in the

02:10:03.560 - 02:10:25.890

hole as Shaw was. I think that's one. The thing that I I don't think it's just a matter of Steve Shaw getting to Alex. I think it's also this whole notion that you maintain a Consistent uniform wage pattern, you know. Come what may. Um, And if

02:10:25.890 - 02:10:41.649

you don't, then you know everything goes to hell. I mean, I, I, that's, I know that's the way Jimmy Hoffall always operated. What they call the theory of a master contract, yeah, but it's like if the thing is falling apart anyway. Um, I mean, master contracts

02:10:41.649 - 02:10:57.359

are great if you're in a position to keep raising the wage level, but if they start falling, then basically you're asking everybody to take a hit, and sometimes you do let let someone go broke before you give them a break. On console did go broke, and

02:10:57.359 - 02:11:16.189

I think the Teamsters are reconciled to it, you know, before Gi showed up. Um, I mean, uh. And he, he brought it on himself, did he ever. You know what I mean you can't, you can't make an employer act rationally. I think people have, when you

02:11:16.189 - 02:11:47.410

fight um a strike. Uh. You make a business decision. Yeah. And uh you give it all you have based on just send. But when you go into a strike for the principle of things, then the employer loses all logic, and that's when they, they'll say to

02:11:47.410 - 02:12:08.430

themselves, I will be dead and gone to hell and I'm in hell before I give in to those bastards. Uh, there is no longer a business decision that they're fighting the principle. And it's the same thing with the union. When the leadership. Does doesn't find it

02:12:08.430 - 02:12:28.939

within themselves to say to the membership, no guys, you cannot have this is not Christmas you don't have to write a letter to Santa Claus one and this and this and this and this and this, um. You, you have an obligation to tell people that uh.

02:12:30.390 - 02:12:51.750

Um, it, it's never good. To kill the the goose that lays the golden eggs. It's always good to bargain in good faith. And uh get as much as you can without killing the employer. Uh, that's what my prof told me it was always a lot uh

02:12:51.759 - 02:13:12.660

uh the demand curve, yeah. Did you, is it just uh academics who use that term, or is that actually come up when union negotiators are being trained? What the demand curve. Point being, don't, don't demand more of your employer that he can afford to pay, you

02:13:12.660 - 02:13:29.049

know, whatever limits. Your bargaining power may greatly exceed. You know, if, if you go past the demand curve, you're just gonna drive your employer out of business. Yeah, I mean it just, yeah, but I mean I know it's something every negotiator knows, but I'm just wondering

02:13:29.049 - 02:13:57.129

if that term is, you know, can do, I guess, right. Did he, did he train you to to be a negotiator? Never. You just learned it yourself, huh? Yeah. Yeah, it's uh I, I, I think labor relations are really at their best. When there's Some degree

02:13:57.129 - 02:14:28.200

of trust between the union and management. And uh I think a union official makes the biggest mistake when he uh pals around too much with an employer because then he begins thinking like an employer, begins living. Uh, like an employer with expense accounts and the fancy

02:14:28.200 - 02:14:49.950

dinners and plays golf and all that bullshit. I've never played a game of golf in my life. I thank God I. I never learned that. But um If you, if you start thinking like an employer, then pretty soon. Whatever the employer tells you, you're gonna, you're

02:14:49.950 - 02:15:10.169

gonna take a face, face value because you, you think you've got a friend in him. Uh, union leaders should realize that the employers don't really like us. They're never gonna be our friends. There there's only a degree of tolerance that they will give us. That they'll

02:15:10.169 - 02:15:35.270

put up with. But um Um I think that the uh the union uh. Representatives should always. Be careful and do some very good research. Before negotiations to find out as much as they can about the status of the company, financial status of the company, so they

02:15:35.270 - 02:15:52.930

know more or less what they what they can get. I'm glad you brought that up because um the whole business of getting open books, you know, from everybody that every employer actually, um. That signed with local 912 after the Shah settlement they all basically opened their

02:15:52.930 - 02:16:07.000

books, right? That was part of the deal. You show us your balance sheets, we'll go in there and look at them, and then we'll, and yet. Once the Shawh terms had been agreed to. It was a uniform agreement, right? I mean, there was no question about.

02:16:08.649 - 02:16:24.459

Watering it down anywhere else, right? I mean, if, if you've gone to Delmar, for instance. And found that they couldn't afford to pay $585. They needed $545 but if you had negotiated $545 with them, then everybody else's wages would have come down too, because that me

02:16:24.459 - 02:16:37.629

too. So you pretty much had to stick with 585 no matter what. Um, And that was kind of what motivated the whole bargaining strategy with David Gill too is we have to give him exactly what we gave everybody else.