00:00:01.009 - 00:00:19.010

OK, we're on the air. Um, There are a couple of specific questions I think I thought of later that aren't on that list, but I want to. Oh, just go down these first and then I'll kind of rift from there. OK. The first one had to

00:00:19.010 - 00:00:34.259

do with the election, you know, Gloria kind of ran well behind the rest of her ticket. Uh, I was struck by that. I, I came across a breakdown of the vote count, you know, in the, um, Alexi Barelasa's papers at San Francisco State. Do you have

00:00:34.259 - 00:00:59.810

any idea why that was? Well, if you look at Gloria, she doesn't look like the rest of the strikers, right? So I think there are the sense that she is not one of us. And I think there are some resentment, some jealousies about her as a

00:00:59.810 - 00:01:26.190

woman, outspoken, platinum blonde, like 4 inch stiletto uh cannery worker that is just not part of what is the norm. So I think that's one. I think the second one is for the men to accept. A woman leader like Gloria is really um. Not their thing.

00:01:26.919 - 00:01:48.239

I think that's why. Yeah, I mean Tom's no way in hell that that probably would vote for her. She's just too threatening to to people. Well, I mean, Guillermina did pretty well, you know, she got almost as many votes as Chilo did. um, yeah, and I

00:01:48.239 - 00:02:01.569

actually I would assume that a lot of the TDU people probably voted for her even though they weren't supposed to because they knew her, you know, so she had some. Do you know why she just she just turned on him like that. Do you know why

00:02:01.569 - 00:02:16.360

that happened? Guillermina. Turn on TDU. Yeah, I mean she was really active in it for a few years and all of a sudden just bang, you know, she was really down on them, you know, she called Joe Fey a racist and You know, this kind of

00:02:16.360 - 00:02:43.050

thing, I mean, I. I can tell you Frank Barda's explanation, but I'd rather hear yours. I, from what I remember, Guilina is really about, um. The bigger picture of the strike of preserving the union and going back to work intact. As a union shop and she

00:02:43.050 - 00:03:10.839

I think felt like um the people she knew TDU was way too self-serving for what they wanted rather than being in the interest of the Of the big picture, they had their own agenda. Uh, so I think that rubbed her the wrong way. I mean, I

00:03:10.839 - 00:03:22.630

guess this was really before you got to town, Frank told me that she had been going with Jose Lopez and that they split up and that she went with some other guy who was really Frank didn't remember his name, but he didn't like him. Implication was

00:03:22.630 - 00:03:37.160

that that kind of turned her head around. I'm not gonna get into that stuff in the book, you know, I'm really not. I couldn't really question Guerrain about this. I did interview her, but it didn't go well. I'm about halfway through, she just burst into tears

00:03:37.160 - 00:03:50.429

and said, Too many memories, you know, and that was it. And even before that, her answers were kind of vague. I think she's one of the people who just wants to forget that whole experience. Uh, I don't even think she would have talked to me and

00:03:50.429 - 00:04:11.940

Oscar hadn't kind of nagged her, um. That's too bad. Yeah. Well, I mean, she, voted no on the final agreement, refused to go back into the plant, you know, I guess got a degree in social work, she works in children's services now, um, and You know,

00:04:11.979 - 00:04:26.079

I guess she'd had some education in Mexico, so it was, you know, an option. It wasn't completely off for her, you know, she didn't have to stay a camera worker for the rest of her life, you know, whereas Gloria had never really done anything else. Um,

00:04:26.359 - 00:04:44.470

so let's move on, um. One of the things that I found was a bone of contention when I talked to the Watson postre Support Committee people, you know, like John Silver is that They really resented the fact that the union did not challenge the injunction more

00:04:44.470 - 00:04:58.500

aggressively, but it basically when people got busted or cited it, just cut a deal, you know, get out of there, don't waste your time in the court system. And when they had the opportunity to bring Dan Siegel down from Oakland and have their big show trial,

00:04:58.989 - 00:05:20.410

they did it, but that was what they thought the union should have done. I know the Northern our Support Committee. Uh, the Northern California Support Committee, um. Had a legal subcommittee for a while and people like Rocco and Mary Modine, you know, and a few others

00:05:20.410 - 00:05:38.769

were on it. Um, how much were they able to do, uh. How active was it? And was there a kind of a philosophical thing about how much Uh, we should, time and effort should go into like the, you know, the legal defense type of stuff, challenging

00:05:38.769 - 00:06:01.730

the injunction and so forth because I know, you know, Sherry Lesson filed her own lawsuit against the injunction. Mhm mhm. I remember the philosophical kind of guiding light for the support committee and all the subcommittees is that we were there to really support the strikers in

00:06:01.730 - 00:06:26.959

what they wanted. So in that way we're trying to kind of be servant leaders, you know, leading from behind and really take the guidance of the strike strikers and not do anything that they wouldn't want us to do. I think that was the differentiation. Um, do

00:06:26.959 - 00:06:43.420

you think that there was Sentiment among the strikers. I mean, God knows people are furious about the injunction, you know, and the unfairness of the police and stuff. Do you think there was really no sentiment for like challenging it legally? I don't think people really knew

00:06:44.910 - 00:07:08.140

what the avenues were. And Then there were people who were undocumented in the strike. So, um, I think that was a very, you know, using the legal system as a tool is a very complicated in some ways very opaque. Um, strategy for them. It was like,

00:07:08.190 - 00:07:27.040

you know, the less we do with that, the better. Mhm. Well, how many, I mean, truly we knew a lot of people who got, I mean, I, I, I, I noticed that Socorro at one point was um. Arrested for battery, you know, plant supervisor, you know,

00:07:27.239 - 00:07:47.829

some young guy came out and started hassling him. She was picketing and she, you know, she kicked him in the nuts, you know about that? I mean, I did not strike me as that I mean I barely knew her. She first of all, I mean, I

00:07:47.829 - 00:08:00.100

mean that's a felony. I mean how did we get out of that one? I mean how did she get did she avoid doing time? Did somebody defend her or did she just they just reduce the plea or dismissed the charges? I think it to a plea

00:08:00.100 - 00:08:22.089

and bailed and we raised the money to for her bail. So we did continue doing so many of these. You know, almost weekly, that was, that was, you know, we'd be going to court and um helping folks get, get, get off, get out. But it was

00:08:22.089 - 00:08:49.619

a defensive strategy. It was not anything offensive. To like turn the table around. Watsonville at that time. Um, It's really a colonial town, right? You had, we did not have district elections, you know, everybody on the city council was white and and linked to some land

00:08:49.619 - 00:09:16.669

or business. And it was very small. So, the political context was really different. Where the strikers did not feel like we had any, they had any friends or allies in the system. So the police, the city council, the county board of supervisors, the courts were all

00:09:16.669 - 00:09:36.780

part of um the owners, the plant owners. And in their pocket. Do you think that that was actually Is that the way they saw it, or you think it was actually the way it was? Definitely the way they saw it and I think to a very

00:09:36.780 - 00:09:51.570

great extent that the text of the speech, I guess to the city council, I guess about a year into the strike they had that town hall meeting and Uh, Steve Morris had a copy of the speech and she's saying, you know, why is the city council

00:09:51.570 - 00:10:11.750

in more consul's pocket and that kind of how she saw it. I think, I think that it's it's the reality, the perception and how things worked back then, which was a whole leading, you know, after the strike, the the the movement for political power. Like, was

00:10:11.750 - 00:10:35.030

seated during the strike when people saw so clearly, my God, these people represent us. Um, Yeah, so, um, I mean, I. I read up on this stuff and I can see that, you know, and the mayor and I was just clearly just the vilest kind of

00:10:35.030 - 00:10:58.669

a racist, um. there were other council members like Ingersoll who seemed to be really concerned about the people being evicted and stuff like that. Um, I was fascinated that the widow of the former editor of the Registered Poonian gave a bunch of money to the Watsonville

00:10:58.669 - 00:11:17.669

Sport committee. I dug up a couple of editorials, you know, on the register Poonian where they didn't. They never criticized the police. They never even took up the question, the injunction, but they really went after more conso uh pretty big time, and early on, you know,

00:11:17.750 - 00:11:30.530

it's like we're. You're bankrupting the city with the cost of policing your goddamn plants, you know, your injunction, you know, maybe you better show some responsibility to the community and come out with an agreement that people can live with and so on. So I guess what

00:11:30.530 - 00:11:51.289

I'm saying is There was some evidence of some sympathy, you know, I think in the community, um, but it's not. I gather it's not something the strikers would have been. Particularly impressed by. I think there's a difference between sympathy and what I think what they were

00:11:51.289 - 00:12:13.590

expressing was An economic concern, it's like get in line, just do what you're supposed to be doing, don't cost us any additional um drain on our resources. I don't know if you can translate that to sympathy. I think that would be a stretch for me. Yeah,

00:12:13.830 - 00:12:29.760

that's a good point. Um, so I wanted to, this is something that I think I talked to Tom about a lot because he Felt that we actually maybe relied a little too much on the members of the strikers committee in terms of getting our sense of

00:12:29.760 - 00:12:52.130

what was going on, you know, among the masses of strikers, um. You probably had more contact. And with a lot of the women and a lot of other people did, um. What was your sense? I mean, do you think that, that, that how, how, I mean,

00:12:52.140 - 00:13:03.280

even the composition of the strikers Committee, I remember you pointed that out to me, it just changed constantly because people just couldn't be counted on to take all that crap for a long period of time. You had Gloria and Shavela and beyond that it was kind

00:13:03.280 - 00:13:26.539

of a revolving door. Is that accurate? I think there was a striker committee that was the official representative body, and then there was this core group of people like Socorro, Esperanza, Guillermina. I mean, they, they, that core was consistent, whether they were officially represented on the

00:13:26.539 - 00:13:44.015

strike. The committee would, you know, they would take turns, but over time that core did not change, and that core included people that would be, you know, manning the picket line day in, day out 24/7, so I would say in that body is probably like 50

00:13:44.015 - 00:14:02.484

people. 50, like 40 to 50 really core devoted uh leaders of the strike and then they, you know, the, the formality of the strikers committee I think was something that they recognized like we just need to take turns. Doing the job, right? The strikers committee had

00:14:02.484 - 00:14:18.554

the food bank work, had the um uh the money, right, the committee that would give out give out give out assistance money. So there was a lot of tedious work that you had to do on the strikers committee. So I think we were actually in touch

00:14:18.684 - 00:14:38.059

with the 50 or 60. For my work on the picket lines and the food banks, you know, all the day to day work of, of keeping the spirit going, keeping the morale up. So I think that's what we were doing. I don't think we were overly

00:14:38.059 - 00:14:54.520

reliant on the strikers. They were the official elected people. Yeah, that may be Tom's perception because he wasn't in town on an ongoing basis, you know, you know, as he puts his helicopter down 2 or 3 times a week and you know. Drive back to the

00:14:54.520 - 00:15:10.429

city at 3 in the morning or something, you know, um. So that, that I think that was his concern, you know, um, but it, it seems to me, so who were some of the other people that you worked most closely with? All the women that were

00:15:10.429 - 00:15:37.369

on the on the hunger strike, so the folks that you mentioned, um. There was this woman, she did a lot of the food, um Lydia, so Lydia and her kind of family, her crew, her cousins, her, so Lydia, Guillermina, Esperanza Socorro, Salome, uh, Cuca, um, definitely

00:15:37.369 - 00:15:58.130

Gloria, those are probably the, the, the super core, I would say. Uh-huh. Esperanza was really active all the way through. Her sister was not actually a hunger striker, right? She just came up with the idea of the show and then everybody else. I have to ask

00:15:58.130 - 00:16:19.520

you about that in a little bit, um. So, you know, um, thanks. I've got 2 copies here actually, so I can take one and I'll take one, So the natural leaders, I think the natural leaders is like that, that wider ring. I think the striker committee

00:16:19.520 - 00:16:44.469

was the kind of the infrastructure, right, the the the structure that they developed for more formal decision making. But the strikers Committee and the more the natural core leaders worked very much together, um, you know, like, like hand in glove, so I would say. Those were

00:16:44.469 - 00:17:00.700

the natural leaders. Did you know Esperanza Torres at all? You know her very well. The one who was featured in John Silver's movie. She and her husband had that house across the street from the plant, and they were evicted, I guess 8 or 9 months. Did

00:17:00.700 - 00:17:14.939

you, I mean, I've had a bunch of people tell me that she was really an important person. She's living out in Sanger now, you know, I really don't want to drive out there unless I can be sure of getting some translations, you know, because her English

00:17:14.939 - 00:17:40.420

is not real secure and my Spanish. But um She's the person that people always mention, you know. Oh yeah, she's quite firm in what she believes and she's fearless in expressing her opinions, very outspoken, and that her health being physically across the street, serves as a

00:17:40.420 - 00:18:05.790

hub for a lot of spontaneous meetings and conversations. So yeah, she was a very key figure throughout um. The strike Did you work with her? Yeah, she's the Esperanza that I'm referring to. I thought you were referring to Esperanza Contreras. Well, yeah, both of them were

00:18:05.790 - 00:18:21.619

part of the core, and I, I get the feeling that the The kind of political tensions between the people who were in sort of Joe Fay's orbit and the people who were in Gloria's and Savello's orbit were probably exaggerated to some extent by people who remember.

00:18:22.569 - 00:18:41.479

Say that again. The political tensions. I mean, I, I frequently. You know, I talked to people including ah Well, when I talk to Trevelo, for instance, I'll say so and so is TDU and so and so, you know, that kind of thing, um, he would say

00:18:41.479 - 00:19:00.719

that or you would say that you know because I, um. I showed him a leaflet which I actually want to ask you about. Um, it came out, I think in January of '86 and it was the group that eventually, you know, was responsible for that demonstration.

00:19:00.810 - 00:19:17.489

It got out of hand on February 17th, right after the Shah settlement and ended up with all that trashing on Main Street. That was actually a pretty. Ecumenical group. I mean it had the people who are identified with TDU. I think Joe Fay probably wrote the

00:19:17.489 - 00:19:31.949

original leaflet. It sounds like his style. Gloria signed it, Guillermia signed it, and so on. And when I showed him, he says, oh, you know, this must have been a TDU thing, so you got this back, you know, he pointed to several people including Esperanza Torres,

00:19:32.219 - 00:19:51.900

as though there was this very clear demarcation. I get the feeling from what you're saying that maybe it wasn't so clear. That someone like Esperanza did not see herself as on one side or the other. I think that's my um memory of most strikers wanted to

00:19:51.900 - 00:20:13.189

see a resolution like this big picture. Whether you're TDU or LRS or the Teams of Union, you have, you know, they were like, OK, let's see what you can bring, let's see how you can help us, you know, they were very practical people, um, you know,

00:20:13.270 - 00:20:34.199

we have a goal here, how can you help us? If you can help us, great, you're in. If you, if you can't, then, you know, Then lay back, you know, they, I think it was the left, um. They had a lot of issues with each other

00:20:35.650 - 00:20:59.819

the strikers had with the love. Does that make sense? I guess to some extent I'm responding to the narrative in that film, you know, uh, have you seen it? You never saw Watson go on strike. Apparently it's Oscars I've got a, it's right over there on

00:20:59.819 - 00:21:21.380

that shelf. Frank Boy gave me his copy. um, it's You know, uh, apparently it's shown a lot on public television. Uh, Oscar refers to it as that lying film. Uh, he doesn't like it at all. Um. My niece is a documentary filmmaker, so I can appreciate

00:21:21.380 - 00:21:41.829

the skill that went into making it, but. It definitely has. First of all, it's very hostile, the Teamsters. It's almost like the strike was the struggle with the of the workers against the Teamsters and sort of disappears into the background and it also. Portrays the um.

00:21:46.130 - 00:22:05.839

It says TDU was not well organized enough to lead the strike and then a group of moderate strikers emerged who want to align with the union, and it was alliance with the union and the moderate strikers kind of took over a stupid analysis. Oh, that was.

00:22:07.790 - 00:22:21.130

Oh, I'm sophisticated, let me say that. Yeah, no, I, I think I mean I, I, I, I mean, even Frank, I don't think is stupid at all, you know, I think he's a very sharp guy in a lot of ways, but the way he wrote up

00:22:21.130 - 00:22:38.510

his own sum up of the strike against the current, he said. Um, The strikers Committee was created like as a middle way between the Teamsters and TDU as though, you know, that was the choice that people had to make and they were sort of straddling the

00:22:38.510 - 00:23:02.349

fence, um. Yeah, I mean TDU is like this this big compared to the union. I think the strikers were trying to say how do we win this goddamn strike? Yeah. And you know, in fairness to Frank, I think he's quite self-critical about some of the mistakes

00:23:02.349 - 00:23:17.930

they made, you know, he said at the beginning of the strike we just tried to take leadership and we shouldn't have done it, you know, it was not democratic and they viewed as outsiders. Yeah, well. Until they started recruiting I mean and had some, you know,

00:23:18.589 - 00:23:34.400

members who were strikers, but I mean one thing that struck me is that damn everybody was accused of being an outsider at some point or another, you know, um, unless you're a striker, yeah, yeah, I mean, uh. Oscar said that, you know, when he got to

00:23:34.400 - 00:23:45.920

town, you know, well you said you went to a meeting of the Watsonville Support Committee and you know, Cruz basically said, what are you doing here? You know, who do you think you are? Did that was that, I mean, you, this is the interview you gave

00:23:45.920 - 00:24:01.989

in '87 I guess to some Santa Cruz. Her name was Heather Thompson. Do you remember her? OK. Steve gave me a copy of her senior thesis and the. You know, and it was a very much a left wing college student's attempt to understand the strike. She

00:24:01.989 - 00:24:25.939

interviewed all the ideological heavyweights. And um then to try to decide who had the best of the argument, you know, um. And who, what was her conclusion? Uh, I think she would have related to the to the film, you know, um, she's, you know, she, the

00:24:25.939 - 00:24:50.739

teamsters are not to be trusted. In fairness, Um, I think it's very difficult for someone who's not familiar with the labor movement to understand. Why They did or do some of the things they do. Mhm. Um. And not to say that it was good. I mean,

00:24:50.750 - 00:25:06.189

I think I wanted to ask you about the settlement because you know, even Sergio thinks Alex kind of gave away the store when he was negotiating with Richard Shaw that he did not need to give up that Sergio as far as I know, didn't speak up

00:25:06.189 - 00:25:27.209

against it, you know, people were going to. I think that was the clincher. My hunch is that Alex might have felt that his bargaining position was weak because he could not from Sergio's point of view, Alex, you know, he's a smart guy, but he sees things

00:25:27.209 - 00:25:44.140

from the employer's point of view and he had a book on his butt imports from Mexico too, um. Have you talked to him? I talked to him. He was one of the first people I interviewed and then he died, you know, a few years ago. Um,

00:25:45.040 - 00:26:00.770

he was embroiled in some factional fight in local 890, I guess they had a disputed election there, um, and I got, you know, he made sure that I got all the relevant documents from the Joint Council 7 file, which is a big help. Oh, that's great.

00:26:03.339 - 00:26:22.589

I mean, the guy Very sharp, very skillful strategist, you know, very big on the whole kind of corporate campaign approach. But I do think that, you know. I don't approve of a lot of what he did, you know, um, and I actually some of the stuff

00:26:22.589 - 00:26:41.229

you, you worked with him a lot, I guess because you were, he has a whole file in the papers at SF that says tang on proposal for a boycott and we could do we could pick at the store in the diamond district in Oakland and so

00:26:41.229 - 00:27:00.609

you mention places where I used to shop. And I, I could tell, you know, that you were trying to float some ideas about almost a farm worker boycott, in the end, I think Alex pretty much scrapped the whole idea of a consumer boycott in favor of

00:27:00.609 - 00:27:15.329

just trying to get the teamsters to withdraw their funds. Was this something that we struggled with him over, or were there differences or was there any tension about how he was dealing with the economic sanctions campaign which is what we want to see happen? So back

00:27:15.329 - 00:27:37.760

then, yeah. He would treat us like. Nothing. I mean, I am shocked to know that he kept those memos and that he has a folder. I mean, at the time, um, they really did not think we were players and or or the way they came off

00:27:37.760 - 00:28:05.714

was we were non-players. When you say that you mean. Alex, Chuck, you know, the upper echelon, you're talking about the Blake actually when John Blake came into town, he actually thought we were more serious than what Alex and Chuck had given me the impression. That's interesting.

00:28:05.824 - 00:28:22.640

How do you explain that? Because I think once you come into town, you see what's going on. Who, who, who actually has connections with strikers and know what strikers are thinking about, um, that they could relate to, um, and we're willing to talk to them with

00:28:22.640 - 00:28:44.300

us. So this is really clueless 8687. So even in the league, it was not until 84. I was in New York in '84 during the garment workers strike. I remember that was the first time when we said actually we should go work inside union. Before then

00:28:44.300 - 00:29:06.619

it was like oppositional, like TDU, you know, like the vampire. So it hasn't been very many years when we understand how unions work inside, who are these people? I think we were very unsophisticated looking back, but compared to, I think people um like TDU at the

00:29:06.619 - 00:29:26.750

time that had a kind of a complete opposition. Well, Cruz did not have a clue. I mean, not that much as a parent. Yeah, so I think we were trying to be more sophisticated, but still we were very immature ourselves. In our own thinking and how

00:29:26.750 - 00:29:43.619

to approach a teamsters, who is Alex. How do you work with somebody like that? It's very secretive. Yeah, and putting me to work with them, I mean, come on, that was a stupid tactical error on our part. It should have been somebody like you or Tom,

00:29:43.660 - 00:30:02.390

somebody who is white, is a man, is, you know, I don't know, a little bit more, he would probably take you more seriously than he took me. That that was my I was position to do that at the point, but you know, I think um. Uh.

00:30:04.020 - 00:30:17.339

Tom actually made the comment that like there's no way in hell a guy like Oscar would have known how to deal with Alex or Chuck Knack for that matter, but sure he could do it. You know she had a little more education, you know, she was

00:30:17.339 - 00:30:34.219

more comfortable doing the United Front stuff, that kind of thing. Well, and I also had the experience coming from the government because you from New York. So that may be true, but it's not true on their, on their reception, right? I mean, I may have been

00:30:34.219 - 00:30:55.089

the right person amongst Oscar, Manuel, Soledad and me, but in the grand scheme of things. She, she was there with as long as I was there, we were roommates, we lived in the same house. And you went down on December 5? Um, something like that yeah.

00:30:55.530 - 00:31:05.619

You said the first time you went down was for solidarity that you actually moved a little bit later, yeah, I think I moved in March. I never knew that and Tom keeps telling me I should talk to her, but I guess she's in the valley somewhere

00:31:05.619 - 00:31:21.290

now. Are you in touch with? She's in Stockton. Do you know how to find her? She's my Facebook friend. OK, well, um, I sent her an email a while back, um, she probably doesn't even know who I am, um, because I guess she turned up on

00:31:21.290 - 00:31:33.939

Richard's list. So I said I'd like to interview you about this strike and he never heard back from me, so if you want to give her a nudge. She'd probably rather forget all of this just like me and beer. I mean these are dark days in

00:31:33.939 - 00:31:55.310

my life as, as with her. I mean, it was not a happy scene having to live there. Well, you know, even, even, even Manuel, who just, you know, who speaks very eloquently and very, you know, passionately about the experiences, you know. He was a lot of

00:31:55.310 - 00:32:08.469

fun at the beginning when I was doing when I was just sort of training people to sort of take leadership positions like in the very beginning of the strike what led up to the strikers. We were doing role playing. I was telling them how to deal

00:32:08.469 - 00:32:31.729

with disruptive people in meetings, that kind of stuff, and it was a gas. After that, I was like. Long weeks of boredom and depression and anxiety, you know, uh, and um. I think what he keeps coming back to when you talk to him is. The guys

00:32:31.729 - 00:32:48.349

just didn't have what it took. You know, he, you're talking about him, who are the guys? Well, he's talking about the male strikers, I think, you know, I think more generally he said the women. Had the kind of the strength of character it took to go

00:32:48.349 - 00:33:02.550

through that ordeal and not be matched up by it. He talked about the older women, the kind of people I guess like his mom, you know, who worked in the moment I started working in the cannery, I knew the people who really made the difference in

00:33:02.550 - 00:33:17.780

there would be like the women who'd raised families maybe alone, they dealt with a reimagined kind of hardship and they were the ones who were really solid. They were the ones whose judgment you could trust implicitly. You know, um yeah. But yeah I think it was

00:33:17.780 - 00:33:33.880

a tough experience for him too, although he stayed around. I was in town for another 15 years. He got married again and I guess his wife works in Sacramento and his health is poor, you know, he had lung cancer and had to have a lung removed.

00:33:34.410 - 00:33:47.930

So anyway, um, I'm talking too much and I don't know when we're going to be able to get there again. It was hard enough to arrange this, but um. So you you felt like we didn't really have that much input into the way the boycott strategy

00:33:47.930 - 00:34:02.209

took shape. I mean, I know there was a lot. Alex was really into doing it right from the get-go. He made that very clear. It's like if we can't stop the. Scab trucks from going into that plant, uh, we're gonna have to have some way of

00:34:02.209 - 00:34:20.898

putting extra pressure on more console, uh. So he was thinking in terms of a consumer boycott, you know, or some kind of a boycott, uh, from the get go. And my sense is that the reason he saved that big folder here is because he was just

00:34:20.898 - 00:34:33.618

sort of looking for something that might work. He also has several pages of his own handwritten notes in there about what might work, what might not work. He did research to figure out, can you identify which products came from Watson Volcanic by the barcode? Is there

00:34:33.618 - 00:34:50.559

any way we can convey that to consumers? We told him that. Oh really? Yeah, I remember sitting in meetings with him, telling him. We could do this, we could do that, we could do this, we could do that if you can remember any of it. Say

00:34:50.559 - 00:35:19.399

it again. Flush that out what you just said um well. It was, you know, using students um as the backbone of kind of popularizing this really it was a UFW kind of approach that we have to do it. I met

00:35:19.399 - 00:35:31.399

with them in Salinas during this time and who was it uh what's his name? Which is Juan Cervantes was that the the the the the district organizer there theFW. Mm, no, that doesn't ring a bell. He's the one guy I think who kind of hung around

00:35:31.399 - 00:35:51.770

Watsonville a bit. We actually went to their Selena's office to meet with them, to learn about their consumer boycott and and to try to get them to be more actively supportive of what was happening in Watsonville. So meeting with Alex, meeting with um Chuck and trying

00:35:51.770 - 00:36:14.479

to sell them the idea of a consumer boycott. We receptive in your opinion? Um, at the meeting, I mean, I remember them, you know, doing a lot of listening and what I remember them being concerned about was, uh, we have limited resources and Excuse me. Between

00:36:14.479 - 00:36:40.139

the Um, stipends that they were giving out and these regional mobilizations, they gave me the impression that they had to make decisions based on how much money they had, and the consumer boycott would be more of a long term strategy that may not have immediate payoff

00:36:40.669 - 00:37:03.820

and that they, that was serious to them. So, Yeah, it, there were a lot of ideas that I think we, um, We tried to kind of fish with them, and I just remember being at the time it was like, wow, really? The Teamsters want to talk

00:37:03.820 - 00:37:23.669

to us. I mean it was kind of shocking to me at the time. Well, You know, I think the way Chuck introduced Alex to me, he said. He was kind of an outside the box thinker, you know, traditional way of. Winning a strike for the teamsters,

00:37:23.709 - 00:37:37.989

you know, break a lot of windshields and frighten the shit out of the scabs, that kind of thing I mean the rough stuff and Alex had a more sophisticated approach that he probably, whether you would acknowledge it or not, he probably stole a few things from

00:37:37.989 - 00:38:02.110

Ray Rogers' playbook and from the farm workers. He was looking for kind of weak spots. And um. Two things I'll share with you. Sergio told me is that what really made the jump is there was this negotiating session right after the recertification vote where consul agreed

00:38:02.110 - 00:38:16.959

to talk again. He didn't show up. Ron Tri didn't show up. None of the big shots from the Flint showed up. They sent in Larry Voter, a couple of scabs, and Andy Anderson, who was the former, you know, you know about this, right? And when Jackie

00:38:16.959 - 00:38:29.820

Presser heard about that, he was so incensed. That he said we're taking all of our fucking money out of Wells Fargo Bank and I'm going to lean on all of the locals, and he was going to do it and I think it was at that point

00:38:29.820 - 00:38:48.840

that Alex concluded, well, we don't need to mess with this other stuffs concentrate on. You know, frightening to back. And that seems plausible to me. Um, there's always a lot of guesswork in this because nobody really acknowledges. What's going on and you hate to think that

00:38:48.840 - 00:39:06.000

Jackie Presser as being the guy who made the difference, you know. You might have um. But the bank connection was something we had no idea. Yeah, yeah, and nobody else could have done that, um. The other thing is I think that a lot of what Alex

00:39:06.000 - 00:39:22.479

was doing was trying to find a way to maneuver the international union into committing something more than $55 a week strikes, and that was part of the reason why he was so eager to settle with Shaw. You know, he was trying to make the effort manageable

00:39:22.479 - 00:39:35.360

enough that the union would be willing to invest in it, but of course he's not going to tell anybody any of this stuff. It's all going to be inside his head. Right. That that makes sense. So, I mean, so you did spend a lot of time

00:39:35.360 - 00:39:49.899

talking to him, kind of floating ideas, he would listen and he wouldn't say much. Mhm. There was a period, I think, when he first started doing the boycott stuff after the Shah settled. That would have been like in between March and say the time of the

00:39:49.899 - 00:40:07.409

recertification, but during a 6 month period where there was a lot of talk. There's a unity article actually right after the research where we say that it seems to have appropriated all this money for the economic sanctions campaign, but nobody knows how it's being spent. Do

00:40:07.409 - 00:40:27.030

you have anything to add to that or any, you know? Anything you can tell me about how you were thinking at the time? How serious did you think the teamsters were about it? Mhm. I think at the time I, I remember thinking this is a big

00:40:27.340 - 00:40:54.750

we've. Because of our involvement and the striker's tenacity, we've really raised the bar here that for them to save face, they have to come out of this with something significant. Otherwise, their name. In the region will be shit for a long, long time, and the competition

00:40:54.750 - 00:41:13.340

with the farm workers, um, I remember thinking they can't afford that. Like who's going to be the next leader in in the in the fields of California. They were vying for that position. So I remember thinking this is this is becoming a big deal to them

00:41:13.830 - 00:41:37.580

and they can't afford to just fall flat on their face. And that's why the public pressure was important. The striker, the student support committees all across the state was really important. And um and then getting to know Frank Gallego's 890 really added more steam to that,

00:41:37.830 - 00:42:00.889

that the Teamsters aren't all fucked up, that all required TDU, you know, they are locals that are actually um. I felt very optimistic about. And that was a little later. I mean, Frank, Raul, all the people from 890 were just a breath of fresh air compared

00:42:00.889 - 00:42:21.169

to Sergio and Joe, he was like, wow, we could do that, we could be that. Mhm. That was a union that actually had a lot of, I mean they, they had a lot more staying power than 912, it seems like I mean they're still, they're still

00:42:21.169 - 00:42:42.010

at it. And they're, you know, progressive member led. Uh yeah, very out of the teamster box. How long did you work for them? 6 months, 9 months, not very long. I remember you came back to Oakland. Yeah, I just remember that house out on Burkhalter Park

00:42:42.010 - 00:43:02.689

and the two dogs. Yes. So, um. Let's, let's move up to the um. After the recertification vote, you know, actually, if you've got any insights you can give me about the organizing effort that went on to get people back into town for that vote, this is

00:43:02.689 - 00:43:20.709

a good time to tell me. I mean, I know something about it already, but I mean. Oh, just mobilizing the social network. I mean using current internet language, it's really mobilizing the social connections and the network, getting the word out. I mean, everybody just got on

00:43:20.709 - 00:43:39.810

the horn. You mentioned Lydia's cousins. Were they all in town or? Were they all in town? No, many of them have left, had left and then came back because of the urging of the folks that stayed in town that had places to originally wasn't she? Did

00:43:39.810 - 00:43:54.620

she, she said she came from Texas when she was 14 years old, one of the few people in town who wasn't born in Mexico. It was my impression, one of the few I've talked to. The food bank played a big role. I hope you include them

00:43:54.949 - 00:44:07.870

in the role that they play. Yeah, well, you could fill me in on that. I mean, I've talked to Lydia briefly. I could talk to her again, I guess, if she's still, you know, it's been several years since I interviewed her. I guess Rayna Guzman was

00:44:07.870 - 00:44:33.300

active, but she's passed away. Were there other people involved in the food that I could, I mean they really We, I mean, in terms of a social service, direct service organization that took on the issue of their constituents. It was a beautiful, I think shining example.

00:44:34.159 - 00:44:53.270

Um, of how that can be done. Mhm. Tell me more. I don't know. I mean, I know the warehouse on Walker, you know, that Walsh was involved with talked about the food here was there before the strike. Oh yeah, and they're there now. I mean they've

00:44:53.270 - 00:45:13.320

expanded a lot. And at the time, you know, it was a weekly, it was a ritual, you know, the wash would come down, the the food bank would prepare for the weekly distribution. There were whatever flyers and newsletters that we had from the strikers committee would

00:45:13.320 - 00:45:30.320

go into each basket. I mean, it was a way to get out the news to people because the banks, OK. Did people go to the food bank to get their food, or did they go to the thing that Lydia was running? I mean, there were two

00:45:30.320 - 00:45:52.280

operations going on there, yeah. I mean, Lydia got a lot of her food from the food bank to distribute to the strikers. So they're very connected and to um have a weekly. Place where you could reliably get information out to people on a one on one

00:45:52.590 - 00:46:15.159

basis um was really part of this network, you know, the certification, the recertification, getting people back into town, it was a big push for like a month. Yeah. I, I, I guess, um, Gloria told me that the strikers Committee. Because they couldn't always, people weren't always

00:46:15.159 - 00:46:24.959

eager to go down to the union hall because it was not a welcoming environment for the women, uh, so they would spend a lot of time on the picket line, but of course you're not going to have a huge crowd of people on the picket line

00:46:24.959 - 00:46:40.570

where the cops are going to show up, so they would go to the food bank instead then. Flipping is just going there picking up your food, talking to whoever is, you know, picking up their food. No, it was not a hangout place. Um, the hangout places

00:46:40.570 - 00:47:17.870

were more in people's houses in very small groupings of people and then the, the weekly meetings, um, well, Esperanza, Gloria, yeah, um. Lydia's, so, you know, houses where. Where small groups of people would gather. Aurora Aurora's place wasn't that where the hunger strike. Yeah, let's so

00:47:17.870 - 00:47:40.719

her house from what I remember. So it was just small groupings of folks and then the word would get out from there. Um, yeah. Here's something that I You know, I haven't talked to anybody. Who except Karen Osmundsen, who worked at Shaw, and I mean she

00:47:40.719 - 00:47:56.709

worked there before the strike, uh, I guess when the strike happened she was an SEIU organizer at that point. Is she married to Joe? She was just for the record, Joe never joined the CP. I had that on her authority. She was a member and you

00:47:56.709 - 00:48:13.580

know she left when all the crap happened in 1989 or 90 or whatever and then they kind of fall apart. I hadn't realized this, but there were at least they had at least a half a dozen people. On the Watsonville strike Support Committee, she named them

00:48:13.580 - 00:48:34.590

all for me. And they were people I think by and large were much more sophisticated politically than Cruz or John Silver. Were these local people, local people, yeah. We strikers? No, no, no, none of them are strikers, maybe, maybe one or two. No, they were like

00:48:34.590 - 00:48:54.179

part of the Watsonville. Um, And you know, the CP I guess went way back, you know, after the the old days of the CIO, um, and, uh. There was a chapter there, you know, I think Jim Bruck had kind of taken a lot of responsibility for

00:48:54.179 - 00:49:07.989

reviving it in the mid 80s. There's an interview with Cruz where she kind of bad mouths him. She says they care more about what's happening in Central America than what's happening in Watsonville. That was one of the things that struck me because these people were her

00:49:07.989 - 00:49:26.909

closest allies, but she's still going to mouth off to a reporter about what's wrong with them. Yeah, it's all about Cruz. Yeah, I mean that was, that was my impression, but what struck me is it's like. You'd think that they would have tried to educate her

00:49:26.909 - 00:49:43.800

a little bit about maybe she was uneducable, you know, educate, you know, I mean just OK I never knew the lady, you know, she would not be open to it, so they just kind of she was somebody who she is she is who she is and

00:49:43.800 - 00:49:57.739

they found that it was. It gave them as someone to work with who had a lot of clout in the community and had some credibility and could speak fluent Spanish and she worked for the food and nutrition service that was not the food bank. That was

00:49:57.739 - 00:50:17.159

something else that was another agency yeah. What can you tell me about them? Do you know much? About her food and nutrition. It's a social service organization now is a bigger as a absorbed into Maria too, right? Yeah, Maria, have you talked to her? Can't find

00:50:17.159 - 00:50:32.439

her. People tell me she's in Salinas. I guess she's retired. Um, I mean, if anybody knows how to reach her, I'd love to talk to her. Oscar doesn't know how to find her. No, but I, what I thought I might do is just drop by their

00:50:32.439 - 00:50:46.689

office and say, you know who I am, what I'm doing, and see if they'll give me a phone number for her, you know, she is retired now. Mhm mhm. I mean, it's always touchy giving people's phone numbers to total strangers, you know. The food and nutrition

00:50:46.689 - 00:51:04.070

service I, I, I don't remember them being a major player at all. It was just Cruz. I mean, Cruz is really the. A stand alone institution at the time. I mean they were very supportive of what she was doing. They actually put up the money for

00:51:04.070 - 00:51:26.600

that movie, you know, migrant was funded by them. That was when the crew started. Yeah, yeah, Cruz is, uh, definitely a player in her own right, and her alliance with Frank was always kind of, wow, OK, two of them was. I mean, at the time very,

00:51:27.669 - 00:51:51.810

very much like, you know, in sync with each other. And I don't remember them, or maybe this is just selective memory now. It's like having that much influence over the direction of the strike. They may have had influence over individual players. But the overall direction, they

00:51:51.810 - 00:52:09.459

were really relegated to the side. I, I mean, Teamsters did not pay them any attention. Mhm. Mm. Well, I mean, Sergio was complaining about Cruz, uh, to me the other day and then the, the newspaper he said, you know. They've helped in a lot of ways.

00:52:09.540 - 00:52:26.239

They collect all those turkeys and stuff. But I just wish they'd stick to support work, you know, there's supposed to be a support committee. That's what they're supposed to do, he said that to the media. Um, and you know I think he was blunter with me.

00:52:26.320 - 00:52:44.679

He said they were a pain in the ass, didn't want to criticize him because they were helping a lot of people, but it was like it was kind of a package deal and the packaging was distasteful for him at least you know one thing about that

00:52:44.679 - 00:53:09.209

movie is just he's the fall guy in the movie. Mhm. Mhm. Everything. It is. Let's, let's keep moving. I mean, I, I wish we had more than a little more time, um. It's after the election, after this recertification vote. And then the plant shut down for

00:53:09.209 - 00:53:28.129

2 weeks and it really looked like. The company may very well go under. There was no indication at that time that somebody else was going to come along and buy the place and keep it going. That seems to me like a scary situation in a lot

00:53:28.129 - 00:53:46.899

of ways. Um, One of his memos to the team's rings, Alex said, you know. The workers agreeing that it's better for this plant to go out of business, they're foreign to continue operating and undercutting wage standards and stuff like that, and I guess they set up

00:53:46.899 - 00:54:13.030

a A job retraining thing in the union hall with cooperation on the assumption that console wasn't going to survive and that basically the plant was going to shut down. Um And there's also some indications I'm I'm, I'm quoting Sergio here. That the Team streams thought once

00:54:13.030 - 00:54:29.290

it was clear that console was going to go broke. They were. They'd taken this non-union guy, put him out of business, and their job now is to maintain union standards for the rest of the industry, and they were going to cut loose from the strike. And

00:54:29.290 - 00:54:44.600

there was, you know, at one point Chuck kind of made noises about putting 912 in trusteeship. Sergio was very bitter and very valuable about this. He said you can't keep having union hall open 24/7. You can't have outsiders. We're roaming in and out all the time.

00:54:45.689 - 00:55:02.429

Nobody should come into the hall who's not a member unless they have your approval, that kind of stuff. I mean, there was really an attempt to tighten things up in February of '87. Um, Were you? Uh, Tell me what your thoughts were at that time, you

00:55:02.429 - 00:55:21.719

know, not just in terms of in terms of the role of Joint Council 7, in terms of the role that Blake was playing. I mean, we pretty much reconciled with the idea that the plant might have closed and never reopen. Mhm. Mhm. Were the strikers. Oh

00:55:21.719 - 00:55:49.780

my God, that's a long time ago. Um. Yeah, I think we were. I think that was a scary moment and I think a lot of feeling of pride was. Uh, animated that we would rather the strikers would rather see the plant shut down, um. Because at

00:55:49.790 - 00:56:16.770

that time, many people have moved away already. It was like we, we're gonna go down. As having defended our pride, our dignity than to crawl back in there in a non-union shop, um, and that would have, you know, vindicated more council. Mhm. So I think during

00:56:16.770 - 00:56:40.070

that time it was really like, OK. This is about the fight for our dignity. And if they have to close down, it's their choice if they choose to do that. Then let that be. Was there any bitterness or feeling like, you know, why the hell would

00:56:40.070 - 00:57:06.439

we go out on strike, this kind of thing, I mean, yeah, of course, but it's not the, the majority sentiment. I mean, all of these things. The sentiments coexisted, you know, I mean, it was not a homogeneous body. Yeah. And um Because I wanna raise this

00:57:06.439 - 00:57:21.010

now I mean actually I love it. Get together again at some point fairly soon if we can do it. I know you've got other places to go, but since I'm busy writing, I won't get as much as I can now. Um, when they were negotiating with

00:57:21.010 - 00:57:43.199

Gill, um, I know basically the tack that um. The union took. I guess it was Blake who handled the negotiations. He's just that we're going to take the same contract and we've got it all the other places and make y'all sign it and the whole. You

00:57:43.199 - 00:57:54.399

know, OK, so people have to wait for their health benefits. It's OK. It's a brand new company. At what point do we become aware that that was going to be a problem? Were we aware of it before like Joe got up and made a big stink

00:57:54.399 - 00:58:18.600

about it? No. Um, so I think we might have heard about it a couple of days before, but no, we did not. We were not part of those conversations. Do you think the people on the negotiating committee like Carlos and Gloriaval, were they? Aware of it,

00:58:18.679 - 00:58:36.449

I mean, I. I asked Tom about this and he said, I think they were just exhausted. They wanted it to end. Just the mere thought that the plant was going to stay open, that people could go back to work with the union contract. Pushed everything else

00:58:36.449 - 00:58:53.379

into the background. Um. And When the negotiators came back to town and the deal was announced, I guess it was on February and then the union meeting was on a Friday. So there was a period of about 2 or 3 days where people were hanging around

00:58:53.379 - 00:59:09.020

the hall arguing about whether to accept it or not. I'm giving you newspaper accounts now, and gradually people were run over to the idea is we can't go back to work without those benefits, um. I asked Gloria, were you, were you worried about what might happen?

00:59:09.149 - 00:59:32.600

She says, oh yes. You know, But you know when you're in leadership you respect what the masters want or work to that effect, you know, this is what people want it was my job to, you know, just follow their direction, you know, um. And um. Were

00:59:32.600 - 00:59:51.250

you down there at the Union Hall during that whole period? Yeah. Do you remember the arguments that went on, what kind of things people were saying, who was saying them? Mhm. I don't remember who, but I remember the trends is. All the way from, why do

00:59:51.250 - 01:00:09.729

we strike if we're gonna go back with this shitty agreement that's worse than what we had before to Well, we fought the best fight we, we could mount, given the resources we had, and this is the best deal that's possible now and that we can fight

01:00:09.729 - 01:00:37.709

another day. And everything in between. So I think if there was um a grid of, you know, the movement on one axis, it would be agreement, degree of agreement, and then the other axis would be degree of difficulty. And every decision right had You know, like

01:00:37.709 - 01:01:00.169

somewhere in between. Um And there was hugely democratic and robust discussions among the the strikers throughout on the picket line in the union hall, in the houses on the street, everywhere it was. There, there wasn't, I, I, I mean, other than, than Frank and Cruz, I

01:01:00.169 - 01:01:33.090

don't think among the strikers. There was a. Such a thing as a pure solution, you know, I think everybody were able to see things in shades of gray. Mhm. And I hope that in your discovery, you know, you can kind of describe those. Well. You know,

01:01:33.159 - 01:01:55.060

there was no clear like that's really wrong or that's just super right. I mean there were so few of those just like in real life everywhere else, you know, it's all in between. And the problem with TDU and Frank and them. that they, I really thought

01:01:55.060 - 01:02:10.080

that they had this purity of thought that we, we could just do this and you know that was just not. Yeah. Well, he said, I think in February of '86, the strike is unwinnable unless the teamsters do this, that and the other, unless they bring out

01:02:10.080 - 01:02:32.409

the other plants, defy the injunction, stop the scabs from coming in. None of those things happened and I mean. I mean, we were looking at the Teamsters and their capacity, is that something they could do? I mean, it's like saying they're God and they're not, I

01:02:32.409 - 01:02:54.500

mean. So some of that I think is just really. Mhm. Binary, you know, when you put things in such a binary, it's not helpful. Yeah. Well, I'm not trying to get you to argue with Frank here. I think it's just, um, uh. You were, I mean,

01:02:55.500 - 01:03:13.620

it, it's, it's, it's tough for me because my interviews are kind of catch as catch can, um, and I don't want to rely too much on Gloria either because she's one person, I'll be a very smart one, you know, and a very articulate one, But something

01:03:13.620 - 01:03:30.760

to give a sense of the kind of discussions that would go on. Um, did people understand the significance of the recertification vote? I mean that was the sort of legal maneuver that Dwayne Beason's office came up with just kind of out of desperation. Did we have

01:03:30.760 - 01:03:47.459

any plans about what we would do if there was a console did move to decertify before, you know, Bon came up with that idea? Because people must have known right after Shaw that just had to hold out for another few months and then he could pull

01:03:47.459 - 01:04:04.830

the plug. Mhm. No, I don't think so. Nobody had any. I don't think so. Just keep your nose to the grindstone and hope for the best. Yeah, I mean at the time there was very few alternatives that seemed realistic. Mhm. What kind of alternatives were considered

01:04:04.830 - 01:04:28.229

that were not realistic? Well, I think the what what you recounted of Frank's, I mean, and then the Teamsters, um, I think they were on the, uh, you know, Alex was really into the corporate campaign that's just keep hammering them um and hurting them economically. I

01:04:28.229 - 01:04:45.879

mean if he decertified, they would have continued the campaign. Yeah, yeah. And actually um. He would have had the same problems of having a trained workforce in there. I mean, my sense is that he was losing money hand over fist while before that vote took place

01:04:47.530 - 01:05:03.169

and that, you know. And it was his pride on the line. The sense I get is the guy wasn't all there, you know, he was just. Probably should turn off the tape recorder before I say this, but that he was just too busy snorting coke to

01:05:03.169 - 01:05:21.169

pay attention to what was going on, and several people have told me that, you know, including Sergio. Um. Mhm. That he kind of had lost control of his life in a lot of ways. I think that the, I mean, as I, as I kind of recall

01:05:21.169 - 01:05:43.514

all of this, what's important to me in retrospect is whether we help build a stronger workers' movement in Watsonville, right? So if, if the, the, the strike itself. is the impetus for the work of building a canary workers' movement that is really about um Latino workers

01:05:44.504 - 01:06:06.770

power and voice. To what extent did that happen or not? what do you think it happened? I think the subsequent district election and the people that um were able to get elected and have moved on to the various kind of, you know, commissions, committees, you know,

01:06:06.860 - 01:06:30.570

that actually Help them gain and wield power in Watsonville. That's a success. Silver told me that the assemblyman from that area now is an old brown beret. I don't know the fact that Oscar was the mayor, I mean, so yeah, I think those were the, um,

01:06:31.070 - 01:06:57.649

some of the things that resulted in in positive rather than negative. Now have Have we left a permanent infrastructure for can we worker organizing that's outside of the Teamsters? No. So to that extent that was not very effective. And then to what extent have the individual

01:06:57.649 - 01:07:21.070

leadership. Of the women leaders been sustained in looking at what they're doing now 20 years later, that would be another sign of whether, you know, there's been any kind of constructive legacy. I get you with Hans I think you guys, and I think that's that's what

01:07:21.070 - 01:07:45.370

I think is a It happened, you know, with the people go back to work, their health benefits, yeah, I think those were the short term immediate gains, but did it pave the way for these longer term sustainable legacy wins, I don't know. Well, The pity is

01:07:45.370 - 01:08:01.840

that the league, we got all jazzed up about the the strike and. Put all these people into what was basically a dying industry, and we didn't realize at the time that uh it was going to happen. I mean the shutdown started almost as soon as the

01:08:01.840 - 01:08:23.410

strike was over, I guess roti. Merged with Norcal and Richard Shaw kind of went out of business the next year and then I think when NAFTA went through that just destroyed whatever was left of it, um. But he says what really you have to look at

01:08:23.410 - 01:08:36.250

individual people's lives to see the impact it had, you know, the fact that Guillomina never went back to work in the plant. She became a social worker, the fact that you know all the people whose kids went to college, you know, that kind of thing and

01:08:36.250 - 01:08:55.620

did well, I mean you just you can't go through an experience like that and not be transformed by it in some way. Uh, and you could say that about almost any struggle, you know, regardless of whether it was successful or not. Um, I think I probably

01:08:55.620 - 01:09:08.979

have told you at some point about that interview I had with Jim Galle after the strike was over. Did you? I, you know, I called a bunch of people up, you know, there was a spread in unity where various, you know, movement dignitaries were supposed to

01:09:08.979 - 01:09:24.779

weigh in on the strike, and Ray Rogers did, you know, and he said, this this shows you what a difference it makes when the union gets behind the struggle, you know, the teamsters did the right thing and look at the difference, you know, um. Chavez said.

01:09:26.870 - 01:09:41.640

You know, more than the pay, more than the benefits they all those years of no fight back. Now they have a union. I called Jim Gayette, and the first question he asked me was how much were they being paid when they went out, you know, 66

01:09:41.640 - 01:09:53.229

$6 an hour, how much did they make when they went back 585. And why was that a victory? And I said, well, because they weren't going to get the old wage back. I mean that was long gone. I mean they basically stopped the wages from falling

01:09:53.229 - 01:10:10.540

any further. You know, when they settled for 585, uh, and he said that's exactly what Louie Anderson told us. Hm. And you know, at that point I said, well, you know, Jim, I think strikers feel like they have a special relationship with you guys, and it

01:10:10.540 - 01:10:25.540

would mean a lot to them if you said something. And he said, and he sounded genuinely regretfully, so I understand that, Peter, you know, I appreciate it and I'd like to, but I really don't feel I can do it. And I at that point hung up

01:10:25.540 - 01:10:45.799

the phone and said fuck you under my breath, you know, I. Mhm. I know there was a lot of reconsideration of of you know P9 after it was over, I think in retrospect. They clearly overplayed their hand. It doesn't excuse what the UFCW did to them.

01:10:45.870 - 01:11:03.069

That was shameful and there's absolutely no excuse for anybody making excuses for it, you know, but just from a strategic point of view, they just did not. Even Ray Rogers, I think, had some second thoughts afterwards we shouldn't have focused so much on the union, you

01:11:03.069 - 01:11:23.140

know, on the internal struggle in the union. But you know, I, I, were you at that labor notes conference where she spoke at the bank you didn't go back to that. I did and um what, what a win is. Well, I mean. I gotta get going.

01:11:23.250 - 01:11:26.770

OK. I think some of your strategic questions.