00:00:01.090 - 00:00:36.569

OK, I'm on there. Give me a quick summary of what's on that one. That's February 1987 between the Watsonville strikers Committee um and support committees. Mike, who's Mike Kay. This discussion of the boycott of Wells Fargo Flyer. The snarkers not wanting to sign the flyer. Um,

00:00:36.889 - 00:01:00.529

specifically Santa Cruz and Watsonville, supposedly Santa Cruz has two more paragraphs criticizing. Uh It's unclear. Mike Kuyall is I think his name, and he was in the Santa Cruz Strike Support Committee. Quest? Yeah, K L Y S T A L, is that right? Oh yeah. Um,

00:01:00.740 - 00:01:21.949

Barke was raising the relationship to the Northern California Watsonville Strike Support Committee and the Monday meetings that some in the strikers Committee won't want to. Distribute flyers from Santa Cruz and WSC. Um, Leaflets are signed by concerned citizens. What group is calling and mounting and distributing

00:01:21.949 - 00:01:43.430

the flyers at Wells Fargo Concerned Citizens or the Watson Support Committee. General principle should be that flyers be signed and people will not take responsibility for the line being. Uh, put forward Mike Qutal saying no names on the flyers because it was made in between meetings.

00:01:45.260 - 00:02:12.460

Um, Jim Bo. Brough from CP said the union disavowed Wells Fargo. Therefore, the strikers Committee won't sign it. Um, strikers wouldn't put it out because the union wouldn't put the flyer out. Karen Fahey says union fears securing a boycott. could get could get sued by the

00:02:12.460 - 00:02:35.419

banks because um they fear doing the boycott because they're fearful of getting sued by the banks. Um Mike says parallel course of groups not working together with the NCWSS like to sign the WSC Santa Cruz Flyer. CP Jim Brough saying add quote divest now to the

00:02:35.419 - 00:03:03.259

flyers. Tell Wells Fargo to keep the plant open and sign a contract. Bar a key motion to add name to the flyer. John, hm Silver probably yeah, John Silver revoke the evictions and blacklists if unity is an important issue, motion should be raised. Mm. So this

00:03:03.259 - 00:03:24.149

topic is relations between support committees. John Silver separate efforts exist, uh, differences. Let's clear the air and move off of these divisions, existing differences never dealt with, uh, from solidarity days 1 and 2. What are the relationships, where is the work going in the future? Bartake

00:03:24.149 - 00:03:48.690

no sense in talking about detailed betrayals. Overall political perspectives. Fay, Karen Fahey have questions about going to strikers meetings raising issues of Uh, votes on whether open meetings or not. Deal with the issue of moving forward and becoming involved. Um, Or whether people should be signing

00:03:48.690 - 00:04:17.459

the flyers is uncomfortable. Mike, search for common ground. Next meeting raise raising the plant could close with strikers getting no money plant closure. Hearing this around the plant retention supervisors turned it over to the staff. And have been shined on. Um, See, Kern Fahey on the

00:04:17.459 - 00:04:37.440

inside, coming to report to us, getting updates, uh, mistakes are being made, continue to look back and do better next time, feeling stuck, limited time. Jimbra, more unity now between the strikers Committee and WSC and SCSC because now working together on Wells Fargo, the ship flyer

00:04:37.440 - 00:05:09.089

could Uh, What is that? Yeah, rupture tenuous unity. So this is basically tactical thing at this stage, um. Mike, not exchanging $2 for pennies, just informational. Um, This is interesting. Let's see. Frank Bar for yourself. Self initial initial only in terms of not understanding the national

00:05:09.089 - 00:05:26.850

question. This is not Corsetti. LRRS is important, has played an important role in terms of raising the national question in a good way, ideologically equipped, not national question kept people together. That sounds like him. Difference of opinion of working with trade union bureaucrats in the 1980s

00:05:26.850 - 00:05:44.869

and whether a strike of this dimension can be won if you follow the union hierarchy, stubborn 1000 kept their end of the deal. We win it if you just stay out. Uh, when it legally need deeper level of unity of the strikers and struggle need sympathy.

00:05:45.809 - 00:06:14.809

Um, Extrey strikes strikes and hot cargo campaigns. The legal level of unity, can't read that strike has proven. The bureaucracy is. Excepting everyone. Did did anybody from the week say anything in this meeting? It sounds like shoes in here. Uh, it's funny. I mean, it sounds

00:06:14.809 - 00:06:47.529

like you guys just sort of sat there and there have been crap. Yes, that's our approach to hear them out and see what to say. Well it sounds like people here with the knowledge of community based on openness and mutual knowledge. His trusts in courts raised.

00:06:49.859 - 00:07:10.589

Criticisms raised, feeling of exclusion and being forgotten to be mentioned, thousands of dollars raised by, you know, the county sport committee should be raised directly, not. I can't remember if you see that, but they were kind of raising money and spending it on behalf of the

00:07:10.589 - 00:07:24.790

strikers and buying milk and eggs and just rather than letting the strikers decide how the money should be spent. I wondered about that because there were a lot of people raising money. There were a lot of people doing their own little aid operations. I know Cruz

00:07:24.790 - 00:07:41.809

Gomez would run around town offering to help people with evictions. Hm, yeah, that's interesting. Um, well, I, I, I got this from Bartay. Um, he said, you know, it was kind of a visual joke around watching about the Cruz would be running around with this big

00:07:41.809 - 00:07:53.769

armload of papers under her arm, you know, offering to help people and, you know, fight evictions, and I have a leaflet. That Bartay saved, you know, which I think she wrote up saying, you know, you don't have to be evicted just because you're on strike, we

00:07:53.769 - 00:08:10.829

can help you, that kind of thing. Um, was she able to do that? Did she I don't do a lot, I, I probably, you know, um. I, uh, but I mean it's like she had her little thing and the Santa Cruz people were having fundraisers, um,

00:08:11.040 - 00:08:31.190

you know, uh. There was a local, you know, the Watsonville strike Sport Committee. I mean, it seems like there were a lot of people. During the strike, supporters operating on pretty much parallel tracks. And um was this, do you remember the context of this meeting? I

00:08:31.429 - 00:09:05.349

seem to recall that. It was Well, clearly it's around. The point where Wells Fargo is being considered. To be boycotted. Because they're subsidizing, still putting out loans to keep them afloat before they withdrew all that. Well, here's my question. I mean I know that. Um, well,

00:09:05.510 - 00:09:19.369

there's that picture of, you know, the strikers and I guess Cherie and Oscar were in the picture too, people going to the bank and there's that frightened looking cop on the front. I think we ran on unity. It also ran the registered Poonian. And Chuck Mac,

00:09:19.530 - 00:09:37.890

actually, I have a document that he sent out where he raised the possibility of putting local 912 and trusteeship, and once again, I believe that was dated February of '87 and one of the things he mentioned was like outsiders campaigning against Wells Fargo and exposing the

00:09:37.890 - 00:09:55.960

union of possible legal liability. Because local 912 had not done enough to stop this stuff. Armando's place, we had moved into Armando's family's house for a week or two. That would be Gloria's brother, yeah, and and then he left town, he moved his family back to

00:09:55.960 - 00:10:21.140

Mexico, and he was a um line supervisor or something like that, some sort of in between, yeah, yeah. And uh And then we finally got that one bedroom apartment up on Stanford. But when you moved into his family's place. Let's get a timeline on that. Was

00:10:21.140 - 00:10:40.770

that before the strike happened? I think it was after one of the big one with confronting the police that was yeah that was the first thing I had gone down to went down in October then yeah before the strikers formed her just around then, you know,

00:10:40.869 - 00:10:59.919

I think it practically formed on that day is what I recall. I don't remember. No, maybe not, maybe formed before. OK, so really the kind of questions I have. You know, Manuel's probably the only one that could answer them unless Tom, you know, some stuff I

00:10:59.919 - 00:11:14.969

guess Manuel was in town I guess at that point and was in and out, but he was really operating out of San Jose, that's right. I mean Mike I talked to and he, he was busy feuding with Ken Path at that point over how to divvy

00:11:14.969 - 00:11:31.450

up TDUs, you know, the money he was raising, you know, TDU National wanted to have it and Mike wanted to use it for the cannery work. You know, um One of the conclusions I drew from talking to Mike was that it seemed like a great idea

00:11:31.450 - 00:11:51.559

at the time to have the Workers project hook up with TDU, but it was probably a serious mistake. One of these cases of organizational unity without political unity, Mike showed me some files of very bitter exchanges between him and. accused him of insubordination. Mike said, you

00:11:51.559 - 00:12:13.359

guys aren't paying me enough to testify the kind of crap you're giving me, you know, so I mean this was going on, I think right up through the end of 85, but it started even before the strike. um I know that was kind of our entry

00:12:13.359 - 00:12:32.890

into Watsonville. Manuel was working in San Jose initially, wasn't he, when he first. Seem to me he was on the road too going between canneries a lot, yeah, and he went to Watsonville once the strike started. Um, did you guys talk about that much? I mean,

00:12:32.969 - 00:12:54.150

maybe I, I can't, yeah, about what it was like in Watsonville before Solidarity Day. I mean, that's what I want to get information on. Uh, no, not really. What it was like. Uh We're just that, you know, this console went on. Little salt Precipitating the whole

00:12:54.150 - 00:13:15.770

thing, but No, not a lot, yeah. I mean, Oscar, when I interviewed him, said that Manuel had already done a lot of the groundwork. He introduced him to a lot of people. Uh, He already had gotten the trust of a lot of the workers. Yeah, we

00:13:15.770 - 00:13:29.340

were going out to coffee a lot, Manuel and me, and, and most of it I didn't even understand it was in Spanish, right, um, but he was just building relations and building trust and talking to people. Uh, yeah, we spent a lot of time in that

00:13:29.340 - 00:13:56.000

coffee shop talking to whom, uh, Gloria and Aurora and Check out O and uh who else um. Were these people who We like taking leadership roles even before the strikers Committee was elected. I mean, I know Chavela was right out there, you know, helping organize the

00:13:56.000 - 00:14:15.780

picket lines from day one just because that was the kind of guy he was, he would volunteer. Yeah, my impression was, I was. Well known within the plant prior to the strike and you know, Gloria's got that bearing, she stands out. With a rainbow eyelashes and

00:14:15.780 - 00:14:50.770

stuff, um. And was speaking out, but um. Yeah, so I don't know exactly what her internal role was within. But she seemed to have already earned a certain level. Recognition and respect. I did Chevella, but um. It wasn't clear to me how the strikers Committee. I,

00:14:51.030 - 00:15:04.830

I recall there was some sort of election. Hi Ariel, we're borrowing your space for a sec. How are you doing? Oh, OK, we can move if if you want to take over your office again. Did you get food? Did you in here? No. OK. I'm gonna

00:15:04.830 - 00:15:26.780

shut it again. This is Peter. Hi Peter. He is the director of the Native American Student Union. We're talking about this. Peter's trying to write a book about this famous cannery worker strike with 1100 Mexican women down in Watsonville, which is in Santa Cruz County, and

00:15:26.780 - 00:15:45.934

I got involved in the media and strikers committee doing legal support work out of legal aid. I can't remember anything is a problem because it's so long. And Peter was a big box full of papers to read and I can't read his handwriting. Peter was editor

00:15:45.934 - 00:16:07.380

of the Union newspaper for um postal workers up in Portland. He's out of Portland now, but at the time he was our labor editor in out of Oakland for Unity Newspaper. Oh yeah, yeah, so, so. To continue, I mean, were you present? Was Oscar present or

00:16:07.380 - 00:16:33.440

was Manuel present when the strikers Committee was elected? Uh, I think Manuel was. I don't think I was uh. I don't remember it anyway. Um, was it before one of the so there's, there were a couple of solidarity. The first solidarity was October 6th, and basically

00:16:33.440 - 00:16:54.650

that was when, you know, all the anchors sort of at that TDU kind of broke out in the open because You know, Joe pretty much tried to do everything himself. And Um, You know, made some fairly Coshly tactical mistakes. I mean, he was what were those?

00:16:55.440 - 00:17:12.319

Oh, Not letting the people who came down from the Bay Area speak, you know, um, not having proper security set up. Uh, I think Oscar was saying the first thing he did was it's like there were all these cops and they were grabbing people at the

00:17:12.319 - 00:17:27.310

drop of a hat and Oscar, I got 10 people to recruit 10 more people and then you know we had a line of 100 people basically separating the cops from the margins, but that just happened right on the spot because Oscar, his assessment was that. Nobody

00:17:27.310 - 00:17:42.750

was taking responsibility for this stuff. I remember that, you know, Joe, you know, I think was, he got a lot of flack for the way he handled that situation. I think he was just way out of his depth, you know, the guy was what, 24 years

00:17:42.750 - 00:17:59.670

old. He was a dropout from UC Santa Cruz, you know, he was a UPS driver. I mean, he didn't really. Have that much experience, yeah, yeah, I mean he made a lot of rookie mistakes I think. Yeah, I didn't realize that. I thought he'd been in

00:17:59.670 - 00:18:15.069

the industry a lot longer. Oh no, he was never, he did not actually work in a cannery until a few years ago. When I interviewed him, he was working a summer shift up a business agent. How did he become a business agent so quickly? He was

00:18:15.069 - 00:18:34.969

a UPS driver and you know he was a 912 and he was the, he became the head of TDU, you know, in Watsonville, which originally organized. Um, But you know, it's like Bartake ran against Richard King in 3 years before the strike. He came within a

00:18:34.969 - 00:18:56.260

hair's breadth of winning. Uh And you know it frightened him to death because he wasn't prepared to actually assume leadership of the local. So he kind of backed off and handed the reins over to Joe and uh Jose Lopez, um. And objectively that was Joe because

00:18:56.260 - 00:19:12.930

Jose I guess was not the most stable guy in the world. Did you know him? No, I remember the name coming up a lot and maybe popping up, but I'm not talking about the, the one apparently he's still around. I guess I could try to find

00:19:12.930 - 00:19:31.170

him, but it seems like he was always getting in trouble with the law, you know, um. And you know, my sense of what the TDU chapter was like. Um In those days was that it tended to attract, as, as, as Joe put it, the angry men.

00:19:32.510 - 00:19:45.959

You know, the most militant people on the planet, you know, they were the, the, the guys who during the strike would be heaving Molotov cocktails through a supervisor window of a supervisor's house kind of thing, but they weren't necessarily representative at the. The mass of workers,

00:19:46.530 - 00:20:00.229

but they were the ones who gravitated TDU and wanted to get into this kind of confrontational thing. With not even with so much as with Richard King. I don't remember Molotov being heaved. Well, like that. I don't know very much about it, you know, and I

00:20:00.229 - 00:20:13.150

don't know if I'll get people to talk about it. I mean the registeronian was full of it. I mean, I, I remember asking Sergio about one incident that was reported in the strike, and he said, you know. That had nothing to do with the strike. That

00:20:13.150 - 00:20:30.209

was a lover's quarrel, you know, it was like we got blamed for it, that's funny. No, there was, there was stuff like that. There was a warehouse that burned down. And um actually Shavelo told me that Cherie called him up at 4 o'clock in the morning

00:20:30.209 - 00:20:48.969

in tears about it, you know she was that upset. Uh If she was afraid it would discredit the strike and You know, in Shilo's opinion, uh, consulate probably set the fire himself to collect some insurance. Oh yeah, you know, I mean, yeah, it was inside the

00:20:48.969 - 00:21:02.089

gates. If you know anything specifics of any of these, tell me, well, I, I believe that he was flying down to Mexico and bringing up a lot of cocaine and selling it to the workers and the managers were all on coke, and I felt like that

00:21:02.089 - 00:21:18.859

was actually one of the reasons he had the the gall to try to decertify and take over Shahs because of this megalomania. The, um, some of the teamsters officials, the white dudes, old guard, it said, tell me, um, not King, but, um, his business agent, what's

00:21:18.859 - 00:21:36.400

his name, um, a big, big guy. Mustache, um, but they would tell me. Consul would come out in his underwear, actually snort it up in the union hall, walk in the union hall and snort openly and, and then say, let's go haul, you know, heave rocks

00:21:36.400 - 00:21:50.989

in my Leon Ellis, or yeah, Leon Ellis, yeah, Leon Ellis, and then I was doing the legal intake, um, with Jose Lopez, a lawyer and with the interpreter and, and some of these guys who are inside were saying, yeah, they're selling us coke and getting, you

00:21:50.989 - 00:22:08.329

know, speeding us up and stuff, whatever. But we never pursued it. We just knew about it. Nobody was going to talk about it in the court of law and or to cops, but Um And I remember early on we were trying to put pressure on the

00:22:08.329 - 00:22:31.430

scabs. And uh cut off some of the scabs that are being provided by. This job training employment agency out of Monterey, which had some Mac CIA guys who are counselors, job counselors, and um So they cooperated because we told them they would be, well they're putting

00:22:31.430 - 00:22:52.089

those Vietnamese scabs in positions of that they're in positions of liability by putting them in dangerous work situations and uh and then at one point we were taking pictures of scabs, photographs and posting them around neighborhoods and Doing little raids, throwing rocks at buses of scabs

00:22:52.089 - 00:23:15.819

going into. The plant late at night, a car full of scabs and smashing windows. Yeah, yeah, I'm gonna do. Thanks Earl. This is, this is interesting. This is stuff I knew nothing about, so any, any the more details, the better. So I was, I was out

00:23:15.819 - 00:23:30.489

there heaving rocks too, because our position was, well, maybe we shouldn't be doing that. But I feel like if we're not gonna discourage her and kind of tacitly encourage the strikers, including our people who really wanted to do it. Then I felt like we're being hypocritical

00:23:30.489 - 00:23:49.060

about it and so I was out there running with them throwing rocks at these cars, which, you know, it's like being back in Berkeley. Yeah, so um. I don't know. Those, so for a while I thought we were putting a little effective pressure on some of

00:23:49.060 - 00:24:06.420

the scabs, but what time are we talking about now? Um, that was early on, but during one of the slow points where people were getting frustrated about the scabs just rolling on in and they're continuing to. Produce and um and we just felt we needed to

00:24:06.790 - 00:24:23.739

up the pressure on the scabs. Was this before Shaw settled or after? Uh, I think it was before, and in fact, I recall our going to another plant. What, what was the other plant? Was it Crossetti that walked out to? Sha Shaw, yeah, yeah, and, um.

00:24:24.680 - 00:24:47.920

And I, I was taking photographs of scabs and one guy pulled out a knife on me. Mhm. Uh, and the striker separated us. Mhm. And um So that was around the, just around the Shaw walkout. And So it's pretty early on. Were you privy to the,

00:24:47.930 - 00:25:09.500

uh, I, I know the meeting where the Shaw settlement was announced was pretty stormy. Were you able to get in? Do you remember anything about that? I don't remember that much about it. I just remember the. There is a sense of compromise and stuff like that.

00:25:09.630 - 00:25:28.050

Yeah, well, I mean, I've got a whole riff on Shaw that I've gotten, you know, from different people. Um I think Either Frank or Joe has reached the conclusion. I think Joe has reached the conclusion by now that He was criticized rather harshly in that John

00:25:28.050 - 00:25:51.780

Silver documentary for not speaking out against the Shah settlement. Which you know Talk about self-righteous, you know, right, silver, yeah, yeah, I mean. And Joe has come to the conclusion that really that strike was lost by that point anyway. Uh, too many people were too many

00:25:51.780 - 00:26:10.040

of the workers had gone back to work. And His theory, well, actually it's Frank's theory was that Shaw's workforce tended to be drawn from all over, whereas everybody from Watsonville County actually lived in town and it's much harder to scab on your neighbors, you know, they

00:26:10.040 - 00:26:31.130

were from the same region in Mexico. It was that they were really. They knew each other, uh, and relatives knew each other. So that was one of the cohesive things that you did not. Betray your neighbors and extended family essentially so there's that kind of regional

00:26:31.939 - 00:26:52.560

cultural cohesion. I don't know, um, Cheri would probably know that, um, since she knew more Spanish than I did, but Um, I think that was one of the extraordinary factors. Why nobody ever crossed that picket line out of 100 and also how they were able to

00:26:52.560 - 00:27:08.800

bring people back for the the recertification vote. Yeah, I've always wondered how they did that. Yeah, me too, you know, it seems to me, but When I asked Gloria and Shavella about it, it's like they're, you know. We knew we could do it. No big deal,

00:27:09.010 - 00:27:20.180

you know, I mean we, we kept tabs on everybody. We every any time somebody left town, they left their contact information with us and all we had to do was just we entered the Union hall, took over the phone lines, and we tracked everybody down. It

00:27:20.180 - 00:27:34.300

was just, you know, just a matter of doing it. It wasn't a matter of how to do it, um, I guess your brother was one of the ones who came back from Mexico for that vote, and Armando had already pretty much decided to take his kids

00:27:34.300 - 00:27:50.339

out of Watsonville, right? Yeah. He was worried about the youth scene in town. Oh, the gang stuff, you know, this is Alex. Point that you know he was, he was worried about the kids getting into drugs and stuff like that and he thought they'd be. Safer,

00:27:50.550 - 00:28:16.630

you know, in Mexico. They were young little girls. They're small little girls. I remember that. Hm. Did you know Gloria's husband? No, uh, what was, who was he? Uh, um, what's his name, uh, Amador. I mean they they split up during the strike. But he, she

00:28:16.630 - 00:28:30.510

actually suggested I, she gave me his phone number and suggested I try to interview him. He didn't want to talk because he wound up doing a year, a year of hard time for what? Well, here Gloria Telly took the fall for a bunch of people who

00:28:30.510 - 00:28:47.119

were, you know, arrested for some kind of strike related violence, you know, he basically got set up for them and understandably, I think he didn't want to talk about it. Oh, remember what's his name, um, the trots guy, he ended up working for the SCIU. Kind

00:28:47.119 - 00:29:00.750

of came in. He and his family, in fact, his wife and kids got deported and they got picked up as undocumented. Oh no, we're living with him, and he was pretty key. He was a young militant guy, kind of trust his leanings because he had yeah,

00:29:01.640 - 00:29:17.260

Carlos. Oh, yeah, he was around at the end. Yeah. When was he deported? He wasn't deported. His, his, his wife and daughters were, um. Actually prior to the strike, but it was just part of their history, family history, and uh and we were all living together

00:29:17.260 - 00:29:40.040

in that apartment for a little while in uh in uh East Armando's apartment, right? No, in uh the one we rented, the one bedroom in Stamford off Stanford. So when was this? When, when were we living together, uh. Well, we kind of Had a, not a

00:29:40.040 - 00:30:03.790

falling out, but there were some differences with him. Carlos, he I can't remember what they were, but they, well, I remember Carlos was considered kind of ultra left. In fact, I remember Oscar doing a little, uh, agitprop routine. All right. Which I I don't know. It

00:30:03.790 - 00:30:18.430

was like two bad ways to organize people. Like one is like the guy who won't raise any politics, and the other is the guy who just raises politics to the most absurd level, you know, and Oscar and Cherie were doing it, you know, and Cheri was

00:30:18.430 - 00:30:38.180

the worker who's just lost her job and Oscar only wants to talk about imperialism, you know, and she said, What about my job. It was very funny, you know, and pulls out a ballpoint pen. This is a symbol of imperialism, you know, it's like about my

00:30:38.180 - 00:30:56.739

job my impression was that that was, you know, but he was out there. I remember him heaving running up to the cops as the cops were throwing tear gas canisters at us and picking them up and throwing them right back at the cops, and I remember

00:30:56.739 - 00:31:10.380

that the tear gas canisters, their own tear gas canister. He would these guys would go running up to the canisters as they were smoking out and pick them up and heave them back at the cops. He was really. I mean that kind of thing, it happens

00:31:10.380 - 00:31:31.189

a lot in Mexico. I mean I think. The level of political Engagement is much more uh, yeah, yeah, which also gets you shut out, yeah, yeah, well keeps down there now I think. And um I remember a discussion of Carlos that I, I sat in on

00:31:31.189 - 00:31:55.030

and. You know, um, The gist of it was that because he had some background. You know, in the organized life in Mexico, the assumption was that he was more You know, we had to give him too much credit in terms of how he was. Yeah, it

00:31:55.030 - 00:32:11.109

was a bit of a hot dog, yeah, yeah. But uh, which is why I was surprised that he stayed the course and ended up being a business agent for the SEIU out of San Jose. I mean, so he still works. Uh, I haven't been in touch

00:32:11.109 - 00:32:25.060

with him for years, but that's, I remember years after the track him down and talk to him, yeah. Yeah, I mean, I'm sure you'd have a very different take on a lot of stuff, but it's OK. I'm getting a whole bunch of different takes, yeah. Yeah,

00:32:25.140 - 00:32:47.510

um, You know your memory is better and you give yourself credit for being stupid for telling me some stuff I haven't heard. Right, you know. Um Getting back to So you and Manuel and Carlos were sharing a place. Mhm. This would have been after you moved

00:32:47.510 - 00:33:17.079

out of Armando's was there too. Oscar was there living there too. Almost asked who did the dishes. Um, And this was during the This is later on in the strike. Mhm. Um, And then Cherie and Paul were down there, right? They were still married at that

00:33:17.079 - 00:33:36.310

point. That's right. I'd completely forgotten that Paul was in Watsonville. Yeah, me too. I was pretty quiet. Yeah, I never talked to him about it. Yeah, and I worked closely with him for years, you know, in the Oakland PO. Paul. Well, yeah, poor Paul. I always

00:33:36.310 - 00:34:00.069

felt bad for Paul because we was around and you know, I mean she never made it. Bone and about being promiscuous and shit. He was, I mean, Paul is a very solid, hardworking, selfless, you know. Uh, you know, he's got that kind of Catholic temperament about

00:34:00.069 - 00:34:16.249

him. You know, just take whatever crap life he was on you and just soldier on, you know. But without the belief that you'll be rewarded for it in the world, you know. It was like that. Ricky Ewing was like that too a little bit. Rick Ewing

00:34:16.249 - 00:34:38.050

was Catholic. all the shit from the Chang sisters. I probably shouldn't. I probably shouldn't be recording this, but Cherie kind of blames Buck and I can. I'll just remember to delete it when I put it on my computer, you know. I mean, Cherie actually blames the

00:34:38.050 - 00:35:06.699

whole scene. what was demanded of her when she was in Watsonville with bringing up her marriage. Anyway, Um, But um Let's get back to um Let's get back to the beginning. The court injunction Came down almost immediately. And I know that was a lot of the

00:35:06.699 - 00:35:24.219

impetus for the initial solidarity day was that. Aurora lived right across the street from the plant, didn't she? Yep. And wasn't she busted on her front porch at one point? Was that early on or, uh, I think so, yeah. Were you there when it happened? I

00:35:24.219 - 00:35:42.939

wasn't there when she got bus. I remember protesting it and a bunch of us being on our porch and kind of to continue to defy it symbolically and stuff. Um Yeah. Did you know that couple that was evicted that was featured in the um the John

00:35:42.939 - 00:36:01.610

Silver movie? I didn't know them. No, I thought they were with the TDU, yeah. Well, the, the wife, I guess, became a, a local 890 organizer from what I understand. I haven't been able to track her down. Um, have you tried talking to Cruz Gomez at

00:36:01.610 - 00:36:16.860

all? Cruz Gomez? No, I, I heard she's back in Maine now. They had some kind of a commemoration for her a few months ago, which unfortunately I didn't know about. Oh, you know, UC Santa Cruz, I bet, has a lot of original documents in their archives.

00:36:16.939 - 00:36:29.540

I think people donated a lot of stuff to Santa Cruz, yeah, I went to, you know, the paper. They've got a big collection at SF State which I went through the stuff that Frank saved. Oh, he donated to the state. Yeah, Frank, Frank had a whole

00:36:29.540 - 00:36:51.300

box of papers, and I went through it. Um, some of the stuff I've got here is, is his actually. Um, Frank, you know, saved everything like you. Unlike you, he has it all very neatly organized and labeled, you know, he was he was a sociologist at

00:36:51.300 - 00:37:09.209

Berkeley before he became a working class organizer, you know, um. Did you know him very well? No, I have a few discussions with him. We respected each other, but yeah, that's um. Kind of how I felt about him, you know, I mean, I thought he was

00:37:09.209 - 00:37:26.879

off the wall a lot, but I always enjoyed talking to him, you know, he's a thoughtful guy and he's on a principled way, very non-sectarian. You know, he was Reese's co-defendant in the Oakland, you know. Reese Reese's description of him. He's a very sweet guy. He's

00:37:26.879 - 00:37:49.810

just, the problem is he's a Trotskyist and he doesn't know it. Oh yeah, well, here's, here's an example of the kind of stuff that crops up in, uh. That's one of yours actually. Oh yeah. There's a bunch of clippings like that from the register Paharonian. And

00:37:49.810 - 00:38:06.760

one thing I thought I might do while I was down there next week is just go to the Arturo, I missed it. I remember Arturo uh twentyro Guerrero, uh, Arturoro Guerrero, yeah, he, um, tell me about him. I think it was Arturo. That's a young blood

00:38:06.760 - 00:38:25.800

he. Popped up in the middle of the strike. He wasn't a cannery worker, but he was very dedicated and um he hooked up with this one woman who looked like she must have been 75. He was like 20. And so they're partners and uh he was

00:38:25.800 - 00:38:39.560

living with her and so he was dedicated to her, but he appeared at the picket line with a gun at one point and somehow I don't know if he flashed it or discharged it, and but he got busted and deported. But then he made his way

00:38:39.560 - 00:38:55.840

back up. He somehow soon thereafter came back up. But I, I love the guy because he just has such a good heart and he was a really funny guy. Well, I mean, the, the sense I got was that, you know, people's immigration status was never an

00:38:55.840 - 00:39:13.510

issue during the strike. Well, he called attention to himself with his gun. You know other people who were deported in the course of the strike? No, I don't. I mean, by the mid 80s, Simpson Mazzoli had passed, probably everybody who was deportable had gotten amnesty at

00:39:13.510 - 00:39:44.500

that point, right? You were ever discussed? Did you ever I don't. Yeah, it seemed to me the maker was kind of out of that picture of surprisingly. I've got some strikers committee bulletins here, I think that was um. There The list of people originally elected and

00:39:44.500 - 00:39:57.489

I understand that the turnover actually on the committee was fairly brisk, but really, you know, Cheri said that it was like you had Gloria and Shavela and Cuca and Aurora, and they were the ones who stuck it out, but the rest sort of came and went.

00:39:58.489 - 00:40:19.760

Her comment was that it was a totally thankless task, you know, serving on the strikers. You know, a tremendous amount of responsibility and grief you know everybody. Let me know when you're ready to talk again. Yeah, good. You don't have to read all this stuff at

00:40:19.760 - 00:40:41.310

the start. Um Here's something I'm really curious about and nobody has been able to answer my questions. That riot on Main Street on February 19th was right after the Shaw settlement. There was a group That just suddenly started putting out leaflets in their haul and Frank

00:40:41.310 - 00:41:01.520

Bartake's papers called The United Teamsters Local 912. Um, their initial call. was signed by all the TDU contacts, but it was also signed by Gloria and Chevella and Cuca and so forth. Um They called for a week of protests. Originally they organized it before the Shah

00:41:01.520 - 00:41:19.489

settlement went down. And then they got blamed. When that rioting broke out on Main Street. I and I might have talked on the phone after that riot took place. Because I was up in Oakland and I was trying to write a story about it for unity

00:41:19.489 - 00:41:46.699

and I was trying to find out what's going on and Uh, I think what you said was it was totally crazy. Hm, I don't remember. Maybe maybe it wasn't you, maybe it was Manuel I talked to somebody. No, I don't remember a lot of details about

00:41:46.699 - 00:42:02.489

that. Do you remember United Teamsters Local 912? I mean, does that ring a bell with you at all? It's in me. Not really. I kind of vaguely remember it as kind of this temporary formation of kind of a coalitional thing maybe. Was it something that, you

00:42:02.489 - 00:42:15.260

know, we tried to patch things up with TDU or was it something that TDU did to try to get themselves off the ground, you know, after to recover their lost ground or? Maybe I, I don't remember. I doubt if we would have done it with them

00:42:17.229 - 00:42:36.159

um. Not that we were sectarian per se, but we, this, you know, those people aren't all that unitable with. Do you remember that flap over Joan Walsh's article in in these times? Not specifically, what was that about? Well, she went down to Watsonville to cover the

00:42:36.159 - 00:43:00.760

strike and wound up devoting half her article to the flap between TDU and the league, which she described as nothing but sectarian. Yeah, uh, and I remember that. Um Three letters were sent. One of them was signed jointly by Joe and Oscar, you know, I think,

00:43:01.820 - 00:43:15.719

you know, and several other people sort of say this is not the story down here, it's a fight between these different groups. Gloria sent a letter. And then I think we got Pedro Noguera and a couple other people in Berkeley saying, you know, we, we aren't

00:43:15.719 - 00:43:31.669

experienced with the league because they're not sectarian, you know, uh, Nancy Skinner, I think somebody from the Berkeley City council, you know, they, they do good work in anti-apartheid, but She went down there. Uh, Joan Walsh did spend a little time talking to people on the

00:43:31.669 - 00:43:46.840

picket lines. Uh, and then Joe kind of just spilled his guts to her. It's like all the frustrations he was having about, you know, the aftermath of Solidarity Day. You know, the fact these outsiders came in from the Bay Area and tried to take over and

00:43:46.840 - 00:43:59.360

so on, which just, you know. Um And then dutifully she went and talked to Modi. He said a lot of stuff to her that he really should not have said. And then of course she went and talked to Manuel to get the other side of the

00:43:59.360 - 00:44:16.620

story and. you know, Joe's people never consolidated their base, you know, they weren't in a position to provide any leadership inside the plant, you know, don't blame me for that, uh, but it just came off as this big left pie fight ruining the strike, and it

00:44:16.620 - 00:44:34.949

was, you know, a tremendously. Counterproductive article, you know, and um. I was struck by the fact that as soon as it came out. There was a lot of flurry, you know, calls back and forth between Bartiy and Um, you know, Oscar and stuff like that and

00:44:34.949 - 00:44:49.520

probably some people at the center too. Trying to say look, this is no good when this, this, this with the public face of the strike is a spat between TDU and the league's put on a show of unity here, right, right, right. Do you, do you

00:44:49.520 - 00:45:05.379

remember any of the discussions going on around that? No, not really. I mean, you could have those discussions with the Bartica but not really with Fay or Karen or or Cruz, you know, Cruz never gave an inch, did she? I mean, she was host to the

00:45:05.379 - 00:45:28.620

end. She wanted to be the prima donna thing. The impression I get is that she was Kind of a difficult person. Yeah. That was her. Um, her rep, um, and she'd been, been launching for years and years, right? Yeah. Yeah, so she probably felt her turf

00:45:28.620 - 00:45:48.679

was being impinged on quite a bit. Frank's portrayal of her that she was someone who was very educated and acculturated. It was sort of rediscovering her roots. Yeah, you know, I recall that too. She called her a hippie, you know, ways of saying the same thing,

00:45:48.689 - 00:46:08.649

you know, those are the types who become ultra nationalists too because they're trying to recover their identities and stuff. I mean, um I, I also see Cruz, or was that just Karen Fahey? That was Karen Fahey. I don't think Cruz, she was close to Jim Brough

00:46:08.649 - 00:46:35.610

and those guys. But I'm not sure that she is straight up CP. Those people from Santa Cruz were CPP, yeah. Coy Staller Jim Broth and. And of course they Jim Buck was the district chair. I don't have Is he still alive? I don't know. I, I

00:46:35.610 - 00:46:53.209

wasn't frankly going to go there. Yeah. I mean, the people who The easiest to talk to are the ones who aren't necessarily the most important to talk to if you get my drift. Um. Yeah, I've had 3 interviews with Sergio. Huh. You know, I'm actually it's

00:46:53.209 - 00:47:14.209

it's, it's eye opening. You know, I, I, I feel like I understand the guy a lot better now. Um, Chuck Mccae could talk. Joe, Joe spent an entire day talking to me. Uh, you know, Frank is always glad to talk. People who You know, Alex, had

00:47:14.209 - 00:47:26.139

he lived, I'm sure I would have gotten. I mean, I had one great interview with him, uh, and then he went and dug up a whole bunch of papers for me out of the Joint Council 7 files. It's quite revealing. I mean, I'm realizing that guy

00:47:26.139 - 00:47:44.870

played a very important role in the strike. It was all behind the scenes. You know, I mean, he kept a low profile. He didn't piss off anybody. Um Probably a lot of the stuff he did was kind of, you know, but he thought the strike was

00:47:44.870 - 00:47:59.209

winnable and his job was to try to get the teamsters in line to make sure the strikers got the support they needed. He thought the Shaw strike wasn't winnable, so his role there was just to try to do whatever was necessary to get it settled. So

00:47:59.209 - 00:48:13.360

you know, it wasn't nothing democratic about the way he operated, but it was, he was a good organizer in the sense that he looked at the bigger picture and he didn't thrust himself into the picture. You know, he did a lot of strategizing, you know, he

00:48:13.360 - 00:48:28.489

tried to cultivate relationships with everybody, you know, he went back to the Teamster convention pulled some strings to get the boycott resolution through, quite proud of how he did that. You know, because he had to kind of take advantage of at that point Jackie Presser was

00:48:28.489 - 00:48:46.750

just taking over the union and he was cleaning out the old, you know, Roy Williams's old Stooges, so Alex kind of exploited that. You know, The guy who had been the head of the Western Conference of Teamsters before reser took over was a You know, probably

00:48:46.750 - 00:49:11.409

a coke snorting buddy of consults. What was his name? um Anderson. Andy Anderson. He, you know, They were apparently it was just this incredible negotiating session. Uh, it must have been right before the recertification vote. Um, it was after the Teamster convention. And they showed up

00:49:11.409 - 00:49:28.870

to negotiate with consul and there's this guy who's the outgoing head of the Western Conference of Teamsters sitting across the table from the next toward consul's negotiator. And Alex immediately. Said excuse us, he heard of the whole, you know, negotiating committee out into the hall and

00:49:28.870 - 00:49:48.449

said don't say anything until I give you the go ahead because they're they're trying to trip us up here. You know, um. And um You know, uh, the way Anderson portrayed it this whole recertification thing is ridiculous. It's just internal team strip politics, you know, they're

00:49:48.449 - 00:50:06.070

trying to screw me and blah blah blah, you know. But it it it shows you how. What a weird scene it was in that union. You know, and then the guys they sent into monitor, you know, like uh Eddie Rodrigue. I mean, these are the guys

00:50:06.070 - 00:50:24.669

who were beating up farm workers on the picket line a few years ago in the Salinas Valley, it's like yeah. Well, I remember, um, King had married, his kid had married one of Consul's kids or something like that. So they're, they're, you know, literally in bed

00:50:24.669 - 00:50:40.229

with each other. Frank has an interesting take on that. He said, you know, this is a small town. These guys all came from the same social class. Most of the cannery owners, these were like small time entrepreneurs. It was a new industry that started in the

00:50:40.229 - 00:50:55.659

50s and it really expanded rapidly and um. A local guy with enough drive could get something going and you know the people who ran the union were just pretty much people he might have gone to high school where they played football with or whatever, you know,

00:50:56.120 - 00:51:14.250

one of those kinds of things of course that all broke down as the industry got more globalized. But you know, the reason King went off the deep end at the end was because it's like He regarded consul's behavior as a personal betrayal, you know, I. You

00:51:14.250 - 00:51:25.040

know, I took care of this kid. I played ball with him when he was little, you know, I, you know, his father and I were close friends. How could he do this to me and destroy my political career in the union? So he just went off

00:51:25.040 - 00:51:42.169

on a drunken toot, you know. So all of a sudden here's this strike and there's nobody in charge, you know, of the local. I think Joe's mistake or TDU's mistake was thinking, well, OK, the locals not functioning, so we'll just move in and take over the

00:51:42.169 - 00:51:58.689

strike, you know, we'll run the local ourselves, right. And You talked to Frank, you say that was our big mistake. We should have done what Oscar did. We should have called the strikers Committee to be elected right at the beginning. And help them get it started.

00:51:58.899 - 00:52:19.000

Instead we just sort of stepped into the leadership vacuum ourselves. And you know, which I think is pretty astute. Yeah, yeah, Frank is no dope. Yeah, well, he believes in actual democracy, at least in a theoretical level, so he could be self-reflexive that way. He has

00:52:19.000 - 00:52:31.649

a criticism he makes at the striker committee, which I, I haven't. He's the only person I've heard today and he said. Once they had that initial meeting and they elected that, you know, 10 member committee, they didn't have any more mass meetings until after the Shah

00:52:31.649 - 00:52:48.010

settlement. I raised that to Shavelo. I raised it to uh. Oscar that's not true. We met every week in the that's right, they got excluded from the union hall because of their ultra leftism and attacking the union all the time. Well, they, they got excluded from

00:52:48.010 - 00:53:05.719

those meetings. They were barred because in which we predicted to them, you know, that you're just gonna be ostracized yourself and, uh, not be part of the United Front by virtue of your attacking the teamsters on the same level as the owners, and, uh, so you

00:53:05.719 - 00:53:21.429

know, you're hoisting your own petard. But Um, but yeah, those meetings still took place on a weekly basis, but they're they're in the context of the general Teamsters meeting, fairly early on, yeah, yeah, you know, here's something I, I really want to ask you about, but

00:53:21.429 - 00:53:37.770

I think it's probably. There was a strike fund set up in the opening days of the strike, and actually Guillermina Ramirez was on it. And they were responsible for assessing, you know, the members of the. What was her name again? Guilin? Yeah, I remember her who

00:53:37.770 - 00:53:53.389

was, she was actually interviewed. She was one of the first people interviewed. She was a TDU person who went over to our side, you know, became very, very angry at Joe. Uh I really want to interview her, but I have not been able to. She's working

00:53:53.389 - 00:54:09.429

for the, you know, as a social worker, you know, for the Santa Cruz County now, but I can't find a home address for her, um, she. No, she was the most outspoken, I think of all the people that Unity interviewed after, you know, the strikers committee

00:54:09.429 - 00:54:24.719

was created. She said, you know, it's like I realized it. You know, we weren't taking any responsibility. We're letting all these people make decisions for us, you know, and they were misleading us, you know, I mean she was bitter, you know, um, there's only somebody who

00:54:24.719 - 00:54:45.590

had worked with TDU before it could be. Yeah, we spoke directly to the national question stuff yeah. Well, Um, One of the people I'm going to talk to when I go down there is an old Fidelia Carra Sosa. Oscar actually ran into her on the street

00:54:45.590 - 00:54:58.969

and said you should talk to this guy Peter Shapiro. He's doing the book, you know, and she was a real TDU diehard. And you know, she said, well, You know, I might need a translator, you know, not that comfortable talking in English as well. I said,

00:54:59.010 - 00:55:15.219

Gloriacourt offered to come along with me and translate in the interviews I do, and she said, yeah, I'd rather not deal with. We have issues, you know, it's like I said, OK, that's fine. You can find you're more comfortable with. That's great, you know. But uh

00:55:16.520 - 00:55:30.429

Um But she's somebody who stayed loyal to you, I think I want to get, you know, and she was like a picket line star and I think she was, she participated in the hunger. She didn't participate in the hunger strike. Uh, because she had some kind

00:55:30.429 - 00:55:49.780

of health problems, you know, diabetes or something like that, so she couldn't do it, but she was there, you know, the whole time. Um, I'm, I'm off on a tangent here, but Anyway, oh TD you put out a leaflet. Oh, the other interesting thing real quick

00:55:49.780 - 00:56:09.120

is um. I, I think they're FBI and certainly at least one police infiltrator in this whole thing. Uh, which we have Discovered in some sort of court documents that they had sent some Chicano cop from Oakland, but we were never able to unearth or figure out

00:56:09.120 - 00:56:34.229

who that was. But you can imagine there's some surveillance by the FBI. Yeah, let's see what I'm gonna try to yeah, don't get too hung up on this. Um, I pulled the stuff that I wanted to ask you specific questions about, um. I wanted to. Ask

00:56:34.229 - 00:56:56.040

about this this tension over the strike fund. Because you put out a leaflet very early on, um. That implied there was gonna be some hanky panky around the strike punch. Yeah, here it is. Is the assessment. Richard King put out a call, uh, for the strike

00:56:56.040 - 00:57:18.239

assessment. Um Here's something you were involved in actually that happened in February of '86. Joe was apparently busted in his court. Yeah, you were, you were one of the witnesses to the arrest that he cited. Yeah, um, yeah, see, here's this is that's um a response

00:57:18.239 - 00:57:58.729

to the TDU leaflet. I'm gonna while you read that stuff. We should probably rewind. OK, we're back on the air. So, Um, you don't have information on me. I have a little bit the strike on, but, um. I just remember there was controversy around it about

00:57:58.729 - 00:58:14.810

there being shut out of the union hall was the striker's decision or was it Sergio or or what? I think it was Sergio I mean I know I've got a letter that he sent to Frank but it's dated June so you're no longer welcome in the

00:58:14.810 - 00:58:29.419

12 you show up again I'm gonna call the cops. Yeah, I mean, I doubt if it was surgical by himself. It was probably these other guys like Leon and stuff, but they did allow the strikers to use the hall to have mass meetings there. Oh yeah.

00:58:30.300 - 00:58:51.679

Um, and oftentimes they weren't there, uh, and they didn't understand Spanish anyway. Well, Sergio did. Sergio would be there sometimes, but how did he handle that stuff? How did he feel about the strikers being elected? Well, I don't, Sergio, I'm not sure, but. Challenged in terms

00:58:51.679 - 00:59:13.580

of leadership was obstructionist no, you know, he was, he tried to be at least in appearance deferential because my sense is he was kind of tentative and fearful of the rank and file's leadership, um, knowing they had a mass base. Um You know, he, he wasn't

00:59:13.580 - 00:59:42.479

a real. Powerhouse assertive personality type of thing you just try to Plug along and His attempts at reasoning with people. But, uh, oftentimes came off a little plaintiff and you know, puppy dog ish. From what I recall, Yeah. Um, so I didn't sense that he put

00:59:42.479 - 01:00:10.270

his foot down hard. On, on us very much. Um, he's probably intimidated by Oscar and stuff. A little bit, but um. You know, he was You know, what's those other guys had come in from Arizona, the thugs and suits. What was his name? John. Um You

01:00:10.270 - 01:00:33.120

mentioned one guy's name. He was kind of this quiet. I mentioned John Silver, but these guys that came in just short of doing the trusteeship to try to control the situation, oh yeah, yeah, yeah, Blake Blake. Well, I, I, I don't envy Sergio. Um That could

01:00:33.120 - 01:00:52.429

not have been a pleasant situation for him, you know, when those guys came in, and yet it was a sign the international was ready to back up the strike after a fashion, so. After the strikers Committee was elected. You had union elections about 5 weeks away.

01:00:53.899 - 01:01:07.310

You had a solidarity day rally, I think, organized on October 22nd and another one first week of November, which I believe I went to. Um, they were all big. And they were all like busloads of people going down from the Bay Area for them, you know,

01:01:07.389 - 01:01:31.050

there were a lot of miss just showing up and stuff. Um, and then people started talking about the election. Mhm. Maybe you could recall some of the discussion that went on, how the people's flag was pulled together. I gathered the results were kind of disappointing. Yeah,

01:01:31.350 - 01:01:54.239

but what's your take on that? Well, it's Seemed like a noble preliminary, I mean, initial effort to place more rank and file obviously in union leadership and um See who was willing and able to step up in terms of Running for public office probably for the

01:01:54.239 - 01:02:20.280

first time in their in their lives and um. My recollection is that Manuel was pretty key in making overtures to people one on one to see if they were willing to uh Come aboard and. have these discussions within. The campaign Committee people Um, so I remember

01:02:20.280 - 01:02:42.820

this excitement and there's um, I think it was impossible to assess how it would turn out. Based on what we knew. A lot of the impetus for the in these times stuff, I think what you were talking about before was that there was a failure to

01:02:42.820 - 01:03:06.689

pull together a united opposition slate. Opposition, you know, the old guard, you know, um, the assumption was, I think that Sergio was like King's successor and You know, I don't think people appreciated how much they hated each other's guts at that point. Right. I kind of

01:03:06.689 - 01:03:29.379

vaguely remember feeling that. Maybe our mass base wasn't as strong as we thought or that strikers are having second thoughts about putting full faith. And authority into our own strikers out of concern and anxiety about levels of experience. Uh, but I'm not sure. I mean, what

01:03:29.379 - 01:03:44.899

do you recall what the vote was? Oh, I mean, Gloria did not do well. And then of course Armando up going up against Sergio backed out at the last minute was a devastating blow to the slate, right, right, right, yeah, Armando probably had more respect than

01:03:44.899 - 01:04:02.040

Gloria. And Alex told me that he basically talked Armando out of running. I said you guys are both, you and Sergio are both good people. You're both capable, but it will be easier to get the international union behind the strike if it's Sergio and not you.

01:04:03.010 - 01:04:18.929

You know, you're going to be red baited if you win. And Armando had conflicted feelings about it anyway, you know, he kind of wanted to go back to Mexico, so forth. Gloria is still pissed off at him for doing that. Yeah, I remember being disappointed in

01:04:18.929 - 01:04:37.750

Armando. I was a little kind of disappointed in Armando just kind of splitting and leaving the field of battle. You, you can't recall any particular things about that period that that would. Expand on my own understanding of it, what I just said of the election campaign,

01:04:39.149 - 01:04:55.719

not really, um, I would think there'd be internal stuff around that and certainly all the literature we helped to produce literature. I've got the flyers. I mean, I know who is who it's just that there must have been a lot of very serious tactical discussions. About

01:04:55.719 - 01:05:30.239

how to approach that. I think it was more like Um, Just trying to lay out the issues. As clearly as possible, but Yeah, I was wondering what TDU's role was in that. I'm sure they discouraged people too. Well, I mean, Joe Warren. Um He uh Had

01:05:30.239 - 01:05:48.149

the name recognition too. And um However pissed off people in the plant might have been in him, he's still, you know, I'm sure he got a lot of votes. All right. One thing that strikes me is that getting votes in the union election and being able

01:05:48.149 - 01:06:07.080

to run an effective union are two different things. Right. And this was kind of the mistake TDU made. I think they overestimated the amount of influence they had in the plant because They had almost succeeded in winning the '82 election. You know, it was really just

01:06:07.080 - 01:06:22.929

a protest vote because his people were angry at Richard King and they were just fed up with his drinking and his bullying, you know, would vote for anybody, you know, who would run against him. I wasn't where they almost won. Oh yeah, I think Frank got

01:06:22.929 - 01:06:39.590

something like 45% of the vote and you know, he said later I don't know what I would have done if I'd won that election. You know, he wasn't prepared to. I mean, I'm sure he would have learned, you know, he figured it out, but he, he

01:06:39.590 - 01:06:56.310

would have had a very, very steep learning curve, you know, he was seeing himself as running as a candidate. He didn't expect to win. And then I think when 85 came around, they had the new election. Uh, then they thought, well, we almost won last time.

01:06:56.580 - 01:07:21.100

They're even more discredited now. We really ought to be able to win. Um, Frank? No, no, I don't think I mean he ran against Sergio TD. He was Armando Sergio and then when Armando backed out, Sergio ran unopposed, um, Joe ran for agent and that was

01:07:21.100 - 01:07:41.260

that, um. But you know, the leaflet that TD you put out. Said I've got a copy of it somewhere. The gist of it was we need to elect good, strong, rank and file fighters for the executive board because to assure that Sergio and Armando did not

01:07:41.260 - 01:07:58.530

just follow in the footsteps of Richard King. That was what the leaflet said these guys will be no better than what we had before, and they included Armando in that, so they definitely had the approach that, you know. There was nothing constructive about the people slate.

01:07:58.860 - 01:08:16.959

That was their attitude, and I think it was in the wake of that that Joe went and talked to him these times, so the the the the hostel. The factional feeling I think was it's absolutely worst then. So let me move up to, um, there was

01:08:16.959 - 01:08:41.620

an unemployed uh hearing in early February. Can you tell me something about the organizing going on around that? Uh, see, well, I have been working with Jose Lopez, the attorney and his wife, um, what's her name? Maria Carle Maria, yeah. And We had been Filing uh

01:08:41.799 - 01:09:12.830

petitions of appeal to get striker's benefits. Unemployment benefits on the Successful argument that they're forced out and then some have been fired just prior to the walkout, uh. And so it wasn't just as a result of The strike and so I was surprised how well we

01:09:12.830 - 01:09:29.628

had done. I wasn't even aware of it, but it was saying, oh you know we want about 100 or something or whatever more. I can't remember how many. Benefits, cases of one. But anyway, this was the large one and um I remember, let's see. Was that

01:09:30.649 - 01:09:49.830

We had planned an assembly at the Union Hall, and we're going to march down to the Veterans Hall. And uh that we actually initiated that with Jose. And Oway was, Jose was already at the Veteran's Hall and um we have picket signs, and I guess technically

01:09:49.830 - 01:10:10.240

we're in violation of the injunction about So many feet apart, even though we were all on the sidewalk and um. And so at a certain point, this kind of SWAT truck came barreling in front of us and blocking. Um, the street and then the, the all

01:10:10.240 - 01:10:35.229

these flat or these guys with helmets on block, block, blocked us. And um They're pretty quiet for the most part, but then finally. Some cop in the back, I guess he was their chief, their sergeant or something said. Uh, who's Joe Fay? That was the and

01:10:35.229 - 01:10:52.669

I was a little. Uh, of course, the thing is everybody says I'm Joe Fay. Well, they did actually some people said that he's Joey. So anyway, Joe kind of came forward like a dumb dumb idiot, and then they wrestled him to the ground, but it was

01:10:52.669 - 01:11:09.470

ironic because Joe wasn't in the leadership of that assembly. It was us and the strikers committee and uh but they assumed that he was in leadership and that he was the one who was to get busted. So immediately the strikers um. Dispersed into the side parking

01:11:09.470 - 01:11:27.430

lot and and ran against the cops and kind of went around the block towards the veterans hall and the cops were like flu flummox for a second there and jumped back into their truck and then cut us off in Main Street again and And then how

01:11:27.430 - 01:11:44.500

many people were marching at that point? I don't know, it seemed to me about. 200, 300 something like that, yeah, it's a pretty big crowd. And maybe it wasn't that large, but it seemed pretty large. A lot of people were already at the Veterans Hall. It

01:11:44.500 - 01:12:02.350

was a whole veterans hall, um, and, and so then they forced us, they didn't arrest anybody else from what I recall, but, um, they forced people to kind of be 15 ft apart or whatever the conditions were of the injunction. It was silly and and and

01:12:02.350 - 01:12:15.430

walked like to. A side of each other, so it just took forever for us to get across the street and into the veterans hall and then as soon as we got, I got there I told Jose what happened that we were delayed and that we were

01:12:15.430 - 01:12:32.410

being harassed and um and Jose wanted to enter it into the legal record by letting the administrative judge know and the administrative judge seemed to be upset about it, about the police conduct and. Did anything ever come of those appeals? They never did get unemployment benefits,

01:12:32.490 - 01:12:51.529

did they? Not as a whole, I don't think. Yeah, some did. Maria could probably tell she probably has all the files and also there Maria Coleo as well as there's another lawyer, the lawyer who was somebody else I haven't been able to, yeah, Irish name. He

01:12:51.529 - 01:13:17.970

was a good guy, um, very dedicated. Um He was working on those cases too. Was he on the Washington Bill strike Sport Committee? No. I don't think so. He, no, he's a Watson a legal aid lawyer who had been there for a while and Um, Jose

01:13:17.970 - 01:13:42.370

died right after the strike was killed? No, he had a congenital heart condition that Maria didn't even know about it. We were all shocked and very, you know, bereaved. You know, he was a great guy. He was totally people's lawyer and So Then after that happened,

01:13:43.120 - 01:14:02.729

well, at some point, there was at some point, they're also denying us the right to assemble on the parks. That was fairly, yeah, they wanted, and shit like that, so. Um Well, moving ahead, um, this is a police report actually. I don't know how Frank got

01:14:02.729 - 01:14:20.359

a hold of this, but it's in the folder at San Francisco State. This is like the police preparations for what turned into the riot on the 19th. Here again, it's like. I don't know if the cops were full of it or not, where their information came

01:14:20.359 - 01:14:35.609

from or whether it's accurate. But the sense I get is that Joe pulled together this new group. To kind of do what TDU was no longer able to do and try to make it a little broader, a little more inclusive. And he set up a week.

01:14:35.759 - 01:14:52.450

Joe doesn't remember any of this, which I, I found interesting, you know, maybe if I showed him the document, I would jog his memory, but he's back in the Midwest now, um. He doesn't remember what aspect of it. Well, I, I asked him about, you know,

01:14:52.500 - 01:15:06.350

what was, it's interesting. I said, what exactly was, you know, United Teamsters Local 912, he said, you know, I, I'm not real clear on what you should do. He says, I got brought up on charges by the Teamsters after that riot took place. And I was

01:15:06.350 - 01:15:21.129

suspended for 2 weeks. He said you should see if they have a Um A record of my hearing that would probably tell you everything you need to know. So I, I asked Chuck Mac, you know, and he says, yeah, I'll see if they've got it. I'll

01:15:21.129 - 01:15:35.220

check it out for you. Um, he says it would be great if they had it. Joe's take on that hearing was that it was just something that Joint Council 7 had to do to keep the international offices back. They had to go through the motions of

01:15:35.220 - 01:15:52.459

disciplining somebody and they basically gave him a rap on the knuckles that he went 2 weeks without his pay, and that was that. Joe did not consider it a big deal. Maybe he did at the time, but he doesn't now. But you know, the scuttlebutt on

01:15:52.459 - 01:16:07.459

that riot that took place was that they had a rally. The police busted it up. And the things just sort of got out of control and so people went down to Main Street and started trashing and, you know, Oscar's comment was a bunch of Anglos, young

01:16:07.459 - 01:16:23.430

Anglos I'd never seen before. Yeah, is that how you remember it? Uh, I kind of vaguely remember that it was probably um. Santa Cruz anarchists or something like that. I mean it was whatever it was anarchist was incredibly stupid. I mean some of those shops where

01:16:23.430 - 01:16:41.720

people had supported the strike, yeah, I remember like the Apple restaurant or something like that. Um, yeah. I don't think it was us. It was, yeah, it was probably these young anarchists. Did they come around a lot? No, they would like pop in for something that

01:16:41.720 - 01:16:59.939

was supposed to be big and then they never did any consistent. And then there was another group that the Social Democrats kind of came down, the Catholic. They were working with Catholic churches and they're being self-righteous young white pastor or something. There was a fair amount

01:16:59.939 - 01:17:19.589

of work done in Santa Cruz, it seems like. Yeah, that's why I suspect there's stuff in the library. It would just be a logical place for people to dump their stuff, but I don't know for a fact. There's also a Latino. And Chicano's Research Center is

01:17:19.589 - 01:17:34.620

run by Larry Trujillo, I think is his name and he was. Oh, he, he was a radical academic out of Berkeley, part of the criminology school, but I imagine he I can't, what the hell is his name? I he might even still be there. I can't

01:17:34.620 - 01:17:52.250

remember. Um, I thought it was. Larry something or he was in Santa Cruz. Yeah, he ran the research center for the Latino stuff out of uh Merrill College, so they have a building there. This guy's Anglo or no, he's Chicano. He was a doctoral student in

01:17:52.250 - 01:18:17.939

criminology, got arrested with us when we occupied the criminology. Yeah, I, I. Uh, I'm in the Nasi office, Navy American Student Union office. It's just, yeah, it's quiet. So just call me. OK, I'll tell him.