00:00:03.059 - 00:00:21.819

OK, testing 123. I think. OK, let me get my notebook out. Well, first of all, um, Yeah, you want to go down the questions first or you want to yeah, OK, and you've got them in front of you, right? Yeah, so, uh, one was the evolution

00:00:21.819 - 00:00:38.069

of the, the can work, and I need to go through a timeline in order to do that. So, um, you, you referenced that, um. It's in chapter 2 and I haven't looked back at that, so I will try to do that. What I gave was mainly

00:00:38.069 - 00:00:54.970

Mike Johnston's version of it plus, you know, what was written up in, uh, Vicky Ruiz's book, which is basically what Mike Johnson told her. You know, he doesn't mention the league at all or sees the time, you know. Um, So I need to include some of

00:00:54.970 - 00:01:12.730

the work that we did, you know, in Sacramento with people like Andy Noguchi, um, and Dixon, the the work we did with those folks, and there was a lot of other pieces. Michael was part of all of it, but I think he looked at it slightly

00:01:12.730 - 00:01:37.319

differently. Um, the second question was, uh, do you, do you have your questions in front of you? Or, um, there's this stack of papers which I Yeah, here we are. OK. The second one was about the. Relationship to TDU, uh, yeah, so that's correct. We didn't

00:01:37.319 - 00:01:53.599

have any, uh, I mean, my, this is all my recollection obviously, so is that we didn't have any use for, uh, for TDU at the time. We felt essentially the way it's characterized, I think, in your question or in some of the other notes that they

00:01:53.599 - 00:02:10.440

were, you know, and even some of the, the, uh. Accounts in some of the press left press even talked about them as a white, you know, trucker organization or male organization, so we, we felt that they missed the boat, uh, but I think more to the

00:02:10.440 - 00:02:32.500

point is we didn't make a real distinction in the early phase between them and CP. So we just thought that there was a group of white. Um, lefties in Watsonville who uh managed to get a few of the workers, uh, on their side and basically from

00:02:32.500 - 00:02:50.029

the way they handled the early stages including Solidarity Day we. Kind of felt like, and the way that they described it is that we walked in on their territory, but we were going to We were going to use the trump card that we had which was

00:02:50.029 - 00:03:07.330

we were going to establish direct relationships to the workers and we didn't need to deal with them very much. So that was, I think, essentially how we handled it in the beginning. I think so. And it's, I mean that was the accusation that was made, you

00:03:07.330 - 00:03:20.809

know, that was kind of the way Joe said when he was mouthing off to Joan Walsh, you know, I, I checked you actually said because I don't remember saying it, but I could have said it, but that business about the anti-apartheid movement in Berkeley, I would

00:03:20.809 - 00:03:36.119

never say something like that. She made that up and I think he's telling the truth about that. Yeah, and, and I didn't see anything wrong with it, to be honest. I mean, obviously from a perspective of. Could they hurt us later and did they have allies

00:03:36.119 - 00:03:53.710

amongst the white left that we as an organization we're not as strong? Absolutely. But in the beginning when we were establishing ourselves there, yeah, we just. Yeah. We, uh, we would occasionally try to talk and it didn't go that well. We'd get Karen Fahey or something

00:03:53.710 - 00:04:06.029

up in our face, and then we'd be like, OK, we're out of here. I suppose you'd been dealing with somebody other than her from the CP somebody a little more savvy or less abrasive. Uh, I, I think they would have had to change our opinion, right?

00:04:06.289 - 00:04:19.089

Because we, you remember from even the liberation school days, we came into it. Well, you didn't, but you were the only one really who had a different experience, but the rest of us were like. Probably how people look at when we talk now that they were

00:04:19.089 - 00:04:35.970

old, they were out of it they were wrong on so many questions. Well, I think I had that attitude too. And it actually, you know, what struck me reading. This this undergraduate paper that I got, you know, by Heather Thompson, I don't know if you know

00:04:35.970 - 00:04:55.540

about her, she went and interviewed a bunch of people after the strike. It was her undergraduate thesis, she interviewed Jim Roth and Cruz, and you know it was always. An aspect of it was that kind of ultra left or they're too chummy with the union, you

00:04:55.540 - 00:05:11.239

know, they just are crawling into bed with the union, blah blah blah. But the other thing they said is, who do these people think they are? We are the left. You know, and I encountered that. So many times, you know, and I was kind of coming

00:05:11.239 - 00:05:24.730

out from the old CP war horses who thought the only reason we're not in leadership of the movement is because of McCarthyism. And these people who are coming along and trying to assert their own leadership, you know, are kind of taking advantage of what the Cold

00:05:24.730 - 00:05:43.010

War did to us, you know, or else we should know that you would encounter that a lot, you know, yeah, so, but I think if you can think of a way, these are, these are really strong undercurrents that are informing how the whole thing is playing

00:05:43.010 - 00:06:03.630

out, don't you think? Yeah. It's not like, I mean, you can, you can even laugh in some ways and say we all fell into our expected roles, but. Those those are real forces in our thinking anyway, and they played out in a certain way. Well, I

00:06:03.630 - 00:06:20.670

mean, Frank Barday was not. He did not fit that mold at all. And you know, I, I, I think I wrote about it. I mean, he agrees that that Solidarity Day was a calamity, that it was a horrific mistake on his part and Joe's part to

00:06:20.670 - 00:06:36.470

set up that rally the way they did, um. His main beef is that we were totally unforgiving about it, you know, that once they did that we wanted nothing more to do with it or with him, and there were no further political discussions or sharing of

00:06:36.470 - 00:06:55.600

ideas or anything like that until fairly late in the game. Well, and, and again, if we, I guess I'm sure if we had been more mature and more comfortable with the fact that we were pulling these. Seemingly disparate forces together of pissed off, neglected workers and

00:06:55.600 - 00:07:14.239

union leadership, but we had to fight with them all the time. It wasn't just that we fought with them once and it was over. They were constantly on us about. And on the strikers committee about being too chummy, uh, this is way before there was anything

00:07:14.239 - 00:07:28.160

to talk about. There was no chumminess happening, but they were still saying it, so we were sort of fighting back against that, yeah. Yeah, I do try to get that across actually in that last chapter, you know, I haven't mentioned the CP at all because I

00:07:28.160 - 00:07:45.489

figure it would be up to Joe to raise it, and I figure interviewing him, I'm not gonna raise it or raise his ex-wife unless he mentions it anymore then I'm gonna. Raised the fact that Guillermia apparently. Became anti TDU when she stopped going with Jose Lopez,

00:07:45.899 - 00:07:58.820

which is what people have told me, but I'm unless somebody volunteers something like that, the party involved, I don't want to mention it, you know, um, but I do think that I'm gonna have to figure out a way to work the CP into the manuscript, and

00:07:58.820 - 00:08:14.609

I was gonna call Fred Hirsch actually, and apparently Mike has a decent relationship with now he's talking to, so I'll see what he says, um. I mean, I guess I could look up Karen Fahey. It sounds to me like it's just asking for trouble, um, and

00:08:14.609 - 00:08:32.809

what about, um, was Lou Gray CP dead? I know, was he CP? Uh, Larry doesn't think so. OK, he just, he just cared. Yeah, he was really nice. He was, he was very nice, um. No, the impression Larry said he was like a World War II

00:08:32.809 - 00:08:48.979

vet who saw a lot of suffering, you know, when he was in occupied Italy. And that kind of shaped his view of the world. You might be able to get some background. On the San Jose side, if you're interested, it might be not that important, but

00:08:48.979 - 00:09:07.830

the guy who does my job in San Jose, Steve Preminger. Do you know him? Lou Steve Preminger, Premier. He's, he's the community services person with working partnerships and he's actually heads up the Democratic Party in San Jose. He worked with Lou Gray quite a bit and

00:09:07.830 - 00:09:20.729

he might have. He might have been working with Lou Gray. We were just going to Lou Gray for food, but he might have been actually working with him, and I remember interviewing him for unity in one of those big rallies, and he just made a tremendous

00:09:20.729 - 00:09:37.650

impression on me. And you know, with this guy at an inch. You know, he's the real deal. He wasn't just popping off. He meant every word he said. um, and you know, Lydia talks about him, you know, how she and her husband would drive their truck

00:09:37.650 - 00:09:51.710

over the mountain every Monday and you know he'd load up the truck with whatever that he'd been able to collect and then he would basically pay Lydia's husband to cut his lawn or something like that, you know, he knew they. Probably hard up, so he just

00:09:51.710 - 00:10:07.260

he's watching my yard could do some work if you want to cut it, you know, it was just every every week before they drove the truck out. No, she remembers him as just sweet man, kind, you know, nurturing, um, did you have any contact with Jose

00:10:07.260 - 00:10:26.330

Lopez? No, um. I mean, uh, I, I'm, I'm a little uncomfortable because. So many people are talking about him and I haven't talked to him. I, it seems a little unfair to take what other people say about the job without getting it, but I have no

00:10:26.330 - 00:10:42.909

idea how to find him. And you know, I think frankly that he became an embarrassment to TDU fairly early on. On the one hand, you know, but he was the only one that you can minimize that part of it though, to be honest. I mean, he

00:10:42.909 - 00:10:57.000

was the person who, he was the firecracker in the beginning and he went towards the flame and then then it wasn't there anymore, so he, he got in the middle of the strike he got thrown in jail for slugging a reporter for the ORP, you know,

00:10:57.830 - 00:11:12.630

stupid. I think he drank too much too. I think he drank too much too. I mean he kept getting to you eyes, you know what I mean. The guy just didn't know how to heal, so you know, anyway, um, so do you remember somebody asking online?

00:11:12.640 - 00:11:25.070

I remember you telling me about this. You know, this is the first time I realized that maybe TDU is not the the people we should be working down there, you know what, somebody actually one of the workers asked asked them on, well, are you here for

00:11:25.070 - 00:11:48.340

us or are you here for TDU. Manuel didn't remember that. Uh, do you remember? I remember something like that and I. Uh, because I was. I was not As focused obviously at the time and certainly not now that he. Had this formal position with TDU which

00:11:48.340 - 00:12:17.179

he did, um. I think that I remember that being a conflict in the beginning and um. I think that he was always a little uncomfortable about it, um. Because at the time, Manuel had a. Internally, Manuel. Was more of a supporter of TDU. Than I was

00:12:17.179 - 00:12:34.229

but not nearly as much as no, no, no, no, not even close so. Um, So whereas for me it wasn't complicated obviously because that was his job and he was in the middle of it, um, it was a little bit more. I mean to me, Manuel

00:12:34.229 - 00:12:54.559

always had two sides to him in some ways he was kind of a like a radical, you know what I mean, that would have been, uh, that would have gone towards TDU and then he was obviously more nationalist, more. Uh, thoughtful as a Marxist Leninist, um.

00:12:55.539 - 00:13:13.380

So, um, Yeah, I'm not sure what happened with that. I I would think that that would not have been an easy. Conversation for him to have. I don't think he would have been so flippant just to say I'm here for you, even though that was his

00:13:13.380 - 00:13:30.190

heart, of course, that's what he believed they were paying his salary. That's what kind of must have infuriated, you know. We put you on the payroll. We did it very reluctantly, uh, and here you are undermining us at every turn on the ground there. But I

00:13:30.190 - 00:13:47.260

think to his credit he, and he should get a lot of credit for it, he, he saw that there was an issue right in front of him, and he took what I thought was the right tact, you know, um, he just said they have to develop

00:13:47.260 - 00:14:01.770

their own leadership and, and, and we have to support that, so. No, I think he, he handled himself really well, and I think he didn't take that seriously and. Uh, to him it was just the whole idea of TDU paying him is kind of a scam,

00:14:01.890 - 00:14:14.919

you know, oh, this is, this is what it takes for us to keep getting our grant money. We'll do it, you know, I mean, I'll, I'll take money from the pope if that's what it takes, you know, uh. And the, so the backdrop of all that,

00:14:14.929 - 00:14:34.450

as I remember it is, um, and people can maybe have more evidence, but my sense was that I never. I personally never really. Wanted to do much of that and the the first time that they started to act. Like they were going the wrong way, I

00:14:34.450 - 00:14:54.210

think I was pushing us to to cut it, so I, I was not a uh a voice of uh unity in those conversations. I, I just thought that they didn't deserve to really be in the same conversation with us in this particular area, um, but I

00:14:54.210 - 00:15:15.119

know they had a lot of presence and, you know, blah blah blah, so. Well, I mean, I think it's also true though that the Watsonmill was not a typical TVD chapter in any way, shape or form. But, but it would have been. It was more it

00:15:15.119 - 00:15:34.650

was closer, most of you chapters wouldn't even have recognized anything, so they were closer to being. More correct than most TDU chapters, I think. But they were still way off the mark because I think they really didn't understand who the strikers were. At at the base,

00:15:34.900 - 00:15:52.679

they didn't really know who those folks were and they didn't know how to respond. In any nuanced, uh, real way, you know, as people, they just, they were like cartoon characters. Well, this is where I think Joe is more insightful than barking, and it could be

00:15:52.679 - 00:16:06.909

just from the experience of actually working in a cannery and also being a union rep for 20 years or however long it was, but you know, I think this is where his thinking has changed. You don't just look for the hell raisers. You work for the

00:16:06.909 - 00:16:20.070

people who know what's going on, the people who can communicate with their coworkers, that kind of thing. You know, when Frank talks about the people who are important and plan, he always talks about the people who are full of piss and vinegar, it's, it's the same.

00:16:20.479 - 00:16:35.119

I have a version of that conversation, um, in this position I'm in now when you're looking for who is going to have influence, uh, during a strike or who, you know, can. You, you look for the people who people want to have lunch with, you know

00:16:35.119 - 00:16:48.330

what I mean? You look for the people who are, you know, uh, able to get along with a lot of people. Those are the people you want to pay attention to, you know, um. But you know when you're trying to find, when you're going into a

00:16:48.330 - 00:17:06.849

workplace and you're trying to find out who the movers and shakers are. I think it takes a lot of experience. Um, Before you really learn how to do that, well, you can misfire. I mean, one of the things that I want, I, I'd like us to,

00:17:06.949 - 00:17:25.520

to think of a way to include though is that. There was a section of the left, and I think we were more so than lots of other people, but I'm sure there was other people, people who Um, went to school, had some education, and still, uh,

00:17:25.530 - 00:17:52.959

from a variety of backgrounds, you know, Asian, black, Latino, white, um, went into the workplace and united with, uh, a sector of workers there. And that's, that was kind of our strength, I thought, putting those two pieces of the puzzle together, um. And it, like you

00:17:52.959 - 00:18:07.310

said, it took different forms. You were, you know, you, you did your organizing in the post office, you know, I mean, I remember when I worked in the machine shop I was in a UAW machine shop in Chicago for a couple of years and you know

00:18:07.719 - 00:18:21.040

I formed a basketball team and uh you know all these other things to try to find went to parties at you know, people's houses, all these things and you know I did a similar thing when I was in San Leandro. You have to just think of

00:18:21.040 - 00:18:38.729

different ways to find out what's the the matrix of that plant, you know what I mean and and that group of people and what makes them tick, um, takes a while. But we had a lot of people who were putting themselves into those situations. It took

00:18:38.729 - 00:18:58.530

me about 10 years to figure that shit out. You know, and it didn't really happen until I stopped looking at my job. It's just a paycheck. You know, and started thinking, you know. I mean, I, I took those 10 years I spent as a mail handler

00:18:58.530 - 00:19:11.969

at the Oakland main office were largely a wash. Uh, I'm looking back, I think there are things I could have done if I, you know, you know, I don't think I started taking an impact, you know, turn to deal on my coworkers until I started getting

00:19:11.969 - 00:19:34.729

active in the union. Especially up in Portland so you know I. It's something nobody's born knowing that stuff, I guess is what I'm saying. But um That particular point, the reason I'm eager to see if there's a way to include something like that is that I

00:19:34.729 - 00:19:59.569

believe. Then it's uh I think it's a shortcoming of the movement right now, to be honest, because, um, almost all the. The activity is coming from people who are in. Um, You know, some leadership in a nonprofit or in a union, there, there's very few kind

00:19:59.569 - 00:20:21.760

of workers, staffers, you know what I mean, that are being seen as part of building something, and I think that that's hard if you. Uh, it's a completely different mindset than going to work and and having some. Sense of understanding who you're working with, you know,

00:20:22.130 - 00:20:34.209

give him, give him his due. That's the point that Steve Early makes or one of the points he makes in his critique of SEIU is that they hire all these, you know, these college frats who want to save the world instead of actually trying to develop

00:20:34.209 - 00:20:53.880

workers, bring them into, you know, but the point is you have to do both, like you said, because just, just by me. Well, you can get a Chivelo, you know what I mean? You can, you can find someone who's who's a good thinker and who can

00:20:53.880 - 00:21:08.439

become elected, but unless you keep working with that person, that person is gonna just, um, he's going to be subject to all the stuff that everyone else is subject to. His own limitations, you know, he's not going to be exposed to things. He's, how does he

00:21:08.439 - 00:21:27.800

stand up by himself, uh. It's endless, yeah. Yeah OK, um, Do you know anything at all about what happened at the October 15th meeting? No, number 3, I, I, my answer is I don't know. You don't know. Yeah, probably the only person I could talk to

00:21:27.800 - 00:21:44.640

about that would be Gloria. If she remembers, I'm just curious whether there was so much bad mouthing in the strikers committee. It went on whether any of their people, people who were doing the bad mouthing actually tried to. Contend for leadership in that that to me

00:21:44.640 - 00:21:58.150

would be the acid test. Did they show up at it? Were they among those 500 workers and they, they had some people like, you know, a few of them were fairly sharp, you know, Fidelia Carra Frank's is one of the mistakes they made was putting Jose

00:21:58.150 - 00:22:13.660

in charge instead of her. He's probably right. It's because if for no other reason that she's not just smart and radical, but she's a woman, you know. Um, There were other people they probably could have, you know, they could have pushed Esperanza Torress or someone who

00:22:13.660 - 00:22:29.969

eventually wound up working for the IPT, you know, anyway, um, that they had decent relationships with. I'm just wondering if those people tried to get a spot on the striker committee and didn't get it. What happened they just ignored it or whether Joe told him to

00:22:29.969 - 00:22:43.729

stay away. I think was it Manuel at that meeting? No, they wouldn't let him in. You sure? Yeah, he said he couldn't get in. No, they, they would not let anybody in who was not a striker. Then he was like right outside. Yeah, I mean, I

00:22:43.729 - 00:22:57.380

think he might have very well been communicating with people about what was going on inside, but that was supposed to be, you know, I don't either. Uh, I think Eva Rio might have been in there just helping translate, that he would have been the only outsider

00:22:57.380 - 00:23:14.770

in that meeting. Have you talked to him? Do you have to? Do you know how to find him? Uh, isn't he still? Who is his wife? I don't know. Uh, yeah, we know, we know who his wife was. Um, let me think about that. Somebody knows

00:23:14.770 - 00:23:30.060

him. I'll ask, I guess. Maybe Oscar knows. He graduated from, uh, he went back and graduated from Stanford, um. I think he's in the area. Yeah, I hope so. I mean, I, I always really liked him. I thought he was a sweet, sweet guy. That would

00:23:30.060 - 00:23:45.290

be interesting to hear, and he was very exact, so he he might have some notes. I mean, I, I didn't know he was in work, not a lot, but, but he, he would have been, uh, I, I'd be interesting because we didn't have that many people

00:23:45.290 - 00:24:00.819

at the center, so he was probably aware. Of all the issues probably did a lot of the translating of the leaflets or you know if there was a meeting that kind of thing, um, and he got married to a woman who was an activist who was

00:24:00.819 - 00:24:20.089

with us. Uh, Latina. Forgot. OK, well, I'll see if he actually was at the meeting, and I will ask Gloria when I see her about it, um. You and I started to talk about this the last time we met. The Monday meetings, the Monday meetings, are

00:24:20.089 - 00:24:40.469

we on 4? Yeah, yeah, I'm on 4 now. I mean, I think frankly what Frank says is BS, but I, I can't. As far as I, I, I get conflicting stories, and I don't think they're that conflicting for what you've told me. I think he, his

00:24:40.469 - 00:25:01.760

input was not welcome and probably Jose's input was not welcome, but um, so I think I would think that probably what happened is that these meetings as you described happened. Occasionally when people would go on the offensive or try, you know, Frank Frank and John Silver

00:25:01.760 - 00:25:16.380

and Karen Fahey or whatever would all think up something and they would try to squeeze it into the meeting and people would probably push it out, you know what I mean, because they liked it or they didn't like it. So I just think that. His initial

00:25:16.380 - 00:25:33.140

point about we weren't forgiving and that the strike committee wasn't forgiving, yeah, we can say that and that had implications in the course of the 18 months, but people were involved. The only thing I remember though when I was reading that was, and then I saw

00:25:33.140 - 00:25:51.010

an account of it, and Frank had an account of it in his article, I think, was that at different points, I think I remember in the unit that we. I was concerned, some of us were concerned that we were starting to not. Speak for a broad

00:25:51.010 - 00:26:06.969

enough group of people to hold the whole group together and that that was. That came fairly late, I think, but that, but no, that was periodic that happened a few times I remember because it was so big and we were so lucky to have everyone holding

00:26:06.969 - 00:26:25.140

on. But I remember as like if, you know, I would go down and I'd hear like a whole bunch of contradictions, you know, in one or two week period and it'd be like, we have to really make sure we keep. In touch with people and. There

00:26:25.140 - 00:26:42.790

was a way, and this is just the imperfection of people, there was a way that people like Gloria could be very um. Kind of distant and you know kind of put people down as much as she was with people and close to people and new people

00:26:42.790 - 00:26:56.060

and her experience was their experience, you know, she was sort of a leader in some ways and so sometimes when people were kind of acting in a way that she didn't like, she didn't have a ton of patience either, and she would, you know, kind of

00:26:56.060 - 00:27:11.810

smack people around a little bit and it was just inevitable that those things were gonna happen so we always had to kind of. Um, keep an eye on that and make sure that any time like if a group of people are starting to get dissatisfied, I

00:27:11.810 - 00:27:26.369

remember people coming into the meetings and saying these people are upset with this and they're upset with this, we would spend a fair amount of time trying to solve that problem. What are we going to do to get this back? Some concrete examples of the discussions

00:27:26.369 - 00:27:43.859

that took place around particular people or particular issues that came up that weren't getting dealt with adequately by the strikers. Well, and I, you know, I'm horrible on this timing. There was, there was something about, so who was running the, the food out of her garage?

00:27:43.900 - 00:28:09.369

Lydia and, uh, Reyna Guzman. So I'm trying to find. Um, so there was a, a, uh, a rumor went out that they were stockpiling food. Themselves in their garage. And we had to go settle that. We had to make sure that it wasn't happening and make

00:28:09.369 - 00:28:27.560

sure that people, uh. So here, and, and I, I apologize for not being more specific, but my remembrance is something like we'd hear a problem like that. And somebody would say Oscar Shari or something would say we. You know, we talked to so and so and

00:28:27.560 - 00:28:43.949

they said it's OK, you know, or I, I told, I told everybody and then I remember the dynamic being something like, well, you, we know that they didn't tell everyone. They told the 5 people that they see every day. So how do we. How do we

00:28:43.949 - 00:29:01.750

play catch up with the wider thing before this becomes a horrible, you know, thing. So I remember a sort of troubleshooting ways to get the word out in a broader way, and that would just be because we had a broader perspective. We weren't knee deep in

00:29:01.750 - 00:29:18.819

it necessarily, so it would be like, how do you solve this problem in a bigger way and make sure that uh it can't because our whole thing was we cannot. Let these splits. Divide us because we, even though Frank was kind of saying they need us,

00:29:18.930 - 00:29:33.770

they need us, we were like, no, we need the unity of this line. We need to keep everybody together. Well, I think Frank actually even in 1987 he can see at that point that the big contribution to the league to the struggle was to keep the

00:29:33.770 - 00:29:47.989

ranks together and he said the strike would not have won. The reason the strike won it because nobody scabbed for month after month after month after month, and Richard Shaw lost. He didn't lose because the team just sold it out. It's because the ranks didn't hold

00:29:47.989 - 00:30:08.989

together. He's, he's very firm about that, and he gives us credit for that. So, so that's the dynamic that I'm describing. So we, I remember us spending a lot of hours and time troubleshooting that, um. And You know, it would be like, um, trying not to

00:30:08.989 - 00:30:27.540

fall into more of the petty things. So the point that one of the papers that I think maybe it was the you quoted somebody, maybe it was Joe or somebody. Um, you know, sometimes the, the people with more authority. So, so that was yeah yeah yeah

00:30:27.540 - 00:30:46.250

so and and we had that same position that the idea that because you're a mechanic meant you were less. Pure as a proletarian, we weren't buying that one because we knew that the dynamic of the plant that people, I mean, Gloria was a floor lady. She,

00:30:46.609 - 00:31:05.130

you know, she had authority over people. People looked and it's almost like, um, so if you go from like a a a a situation where people have no power and then all of a sudden they're thrust into something. If this was a longer period, that strikers

00:31:05.130 - 00:31:22.630

committee probably wouldn't have been the right group to hold it together. They were really like an interim. I almost see it as like, why did the country have to um elect someone like Barack Obama who's, you know what I mean, half white, half whatever. We can't

00:31:22.630 - 00:31:41.910

go full tilt into this other thing, and I think that that's what TDU was confused about that they thought that the leadership was going to be all these pure proletarian leaders and they were in fact people that were recognized to be. You know, a floor later

00:31:41.910 - 00:31:59.280

Trello was a mechanic. Did he, did Chavelo have as hard a life as the woman who's, you know, getting carpal tunnel, you know, cutting broccoli all day? No, but he was very, um. empathetic of a person, he was smart. He, he was humble, so he had

00:31:59.280 - 00:32:17.719

a lot of qualities of his character than his politics. People just trusted him implicitly because he was a solid guy. Yeah, he was a solid guy and and he he respected women. He was not a pig. That helped. It wouldn't, it wasn't that easy. How can

00:32:17.719 - 00:32:31.739

you have somebody who, you know, in general is a pig. And who's gonna survive in the middle of that strike? It's not that easy. I'll tell you this is an interesting story. I can't resist. Esperanza Contrera said, you know, Chavelle and I are from the same

00:32:31.739 - 00:32:47.270

town. And his family was like the richest family in town. And you know, my people were just like poor as church mice, and when I first got to Watsonville, I was just afraid of him. And During the strike, I realized what he was like and it

00:32:47.270 - 00:33:03.229

was just this revelation, you know, its like I, I wound up sort of hugging him and saying, you know, homeboy, you know, I would never have done that back in Mexico, you know. And, and again, just like, um, and I think it took all of this

00:33:03.229 - 00:33:23.550

extra work to figure out like, like Oscar spent a lot of time trying to give. Loose boundaries to somebody like Cua. Left to her own devices, she would have been in jail in the 3rd week of the strike, but Gloria and Oscar were on her and

00:33:23.550 - 00:33:38.079

they were like, do not fuck this up. They, of course, you know, she did her little night raids and, you know, blackface and you know, did whatever shit they were going to do. Um, I told those guys I don't even want to know about it. You

00:33:38.079 - 00:33:53.619

shouldn't tell me about it because then I'm gonna have to tell somebody else and I don't want to know, but. But I know that they spend time dealing with that. And of course I'm not going to mention it, but it's worth knowing. But that's an example.

00:33:53.949 - 00:34:14.939

I mean, my impression of her, I didn't know her during this strike, but just interviewing her is that she's a little. Yeah, you know, but good heart, but well, uh. Yeah, for different, so, so just like the league was trying to harness. People from different backgrounds

00:34:14.939 - 00:34:36.428

with different strengths, um. I think that we felt More comfortable in some ways more so than a lot of the other groups because other groups were fairly more mono dimensional in that they would get all their recruits would be similar similar backgrounds similar you know uh

00:34:36.428 - 00:34:52.899

ethnic groups, whatever we came from so many different places we had to figure out a lot of different cultures, a lot of different ways to do things, and I think that we took those skills and we used it to pull together. Some way that the strikers

00:34:52.899 - 00:35:11.899

could get along with everybody where we were the weakest in a lot of ways was when we had to translate that experience uh for like sort of the white left and uh people like me should have been better at doing that, but I since I felt

00:35:11.899 - 00:35:27.709

more uh akin. To the people in the organization than I did to the left, I wasn't much help. That was a problem. I mean it was for me too. I mean, it's like part of it's because we I came out of the left, you know, to

00:35:27.709 - 00:35:42.379

me joining I breaking with all that, and you don't wanna. You know, you want to get as far away from that stuff as you can once you decide that's not where it's at. And so we would have our back and forths when people like Paul Rockwell

00:35:42.379 - 00:35:58.239

would remind us that we were white or whatever. Well, that was a problem, I think it really was, um, but we dealt with it a lot better than a lot of people, but I think some of the soft criticisms you've made today do kind of have

00:35:58.239 - 00:36:13.449

their roots in that, you know, um, for instance, taking Monro's side every time he had a fight with Mike, you know. Um Manuel was right a lot of the time, but so was Mike a lot of the time, but he, he didn't stand a chance, you

00:36:13.449 - 00:36:30.370

know, internal in terms of the internal politics. Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, and again, it was, uh, yes, um, and so I think it's, it's, it's good to understand that in a lot of ways, I mean, everyone plays a role, but as being in leadership, I played

00:36:30.370 - 00:36:49.219

more of a role and so all of my, uh, defaults in this in this area. Um, played a role in this. OK, um, I mean, let's try to get specific about the meanings because the reason I say I'm not clear and I, I kind of spelled

00:36:49.219 - 00:37:02.020

it out in the way I wrote this question up. People like Gloria and Hanna Ramirez and Esperanza, we go down to the Union Hall every Monday night and we talk about what needed to be done and we figure out how to do it. They're vague about

00:37:02.020 - 00:37:14.729

the time when I interviewed Chivello because I was in the back of my mind during all these interviews with Frank's claimed that Stryker's committee was elected and then they just sort of went into hiding for 9 months, which I don't think was true, and I think

00:37:15.379 - 00:37:36.370

probably what there's something hiding and. You know, leafleting the town every week. I mean, I remember these discussions where it would be like maybe the maybe the the census number would drop on the meetings or something and I remember being concerned, are we doing everything we

00:37:36.370 - 00:37:53.699

can to be out there, you know what I mean with people and I think we had to kind of periodically. Spend time. Pulling more people in and and you know, and as people means by invitation only, yeah. Maybe, but, but it was also part of our

00:37:53.699 - 00:38:10.860

holding the group together because as people would become out of it or disaffected or cynical or have problems, not just them, not just the striker community, but us, we would go out and that's this is some of the work that was, you know, tough for people

00:38:10.860 - 00:38:26.449

like Cherie and stuff, but she did a good job I think. I we literally went out ourselves and engaged these people and pulled them back in, you know we haven't seen you for a while. I think we were doing that all the time and um I

00:38:26.449 - 00:38:41.850

just have a flashback of of having this conversation with people and saying, do you think we're, you know, so, so here we have, so we have Gloria in the strike, we have our folks, you know, spending time with her sort of pretty much every day, and

00:38:41.850 - 00:38:55.860

then we have me. And other people, but probably mainly me like parachuting in there 3 times a week and showing up and staying there till 1 o'clock in the morning and then driving home. So and then me going back by the way, so if you wanna

00:38:55.860 - 00:39:12.639

drop your questions and then um me going back to the center. And Checking in with people, you know what I mean, so we have layers of discussion. I would go and talk to you and we discuss what we're gonna write. I go and talk to, you

00:39:12.639 - 00:39:30.610

know, Carmen or whatever, so we, we have layers of this stuff in terms of and so then that would, that would filter back down, right? So the Monday meeting was, uh, a combination of all these other. Yeah. Discussion, it's not, that's not is that that don't

00:39:30.610 - 00:39:45.899

get that one if that's it. Yeah, that's fine, OK. So I mean it it's. The point is that people knew they were happening. Sometimes they'd show up, sometimes they wouldn't, you know, and I said to Frank, Frank, people have told me there were meetings there every

00:39:45.899 - 00:39:58.419

Monday night they'd go down and I said, Yeah, but it's like when they had that big meeting on October 15th, they just put out a formal announcement. It was in writing. Everybody knew where to go. 500 people showed up, uh, and it was accountable. It was

00:39:58.419 - 00:40:16.770

democratic. That's the way it should have been done. Every Monday night meeting should have been like that, which is, I think, not real. It's not real, and I'm sure what he's alluding to, uh, I'm sure it's true sometimes is that there's only so much democracy that

00:40:16.770 - 00:40:34.729

an inexperienced group of leaders can handle, you know what I mean? Um, so. If they only had 25 people at the meeting and they were able to get their way, did they feel OK about it? Probably sometimes they did, you know what I mean, because they

00:40:34.729 - 00:40:51.169

didn't want it just like anybody who's in leadership only has so much patience for what they consider to be not their idea, you know what I mean? So I, I just think it's the imperfection of the situation. Um, it takes a lot of skill. To manage

00:40:51.669 - 00:41:04.810

democracy on the level of a couple 100 I think what they did do, and I give them a lot of credit, is that they were on the line every day and that's something that he didn't understand. It wasn't a meeting. It didn't have to have a

00:41:04.810 - 00:41:20.350

formality to it. They were on the line talking all day long with people at the food bank on the line, you know what I mean, with the hardship, you know, Tavela was running the hardship thing. So they were, they had a really good sense of the

00:41:20.350 - 00:41:38.550

pulse of what was going on and we were in constant communication with them, so we had a pulse. And Frankton This is actually very good. Because I've been wondering how to, I, I feel like I kind of have to answer Frank's article. Because at this point

00:41:38.550 - 00:41:58.870

don't, but it's OK. You don't, but it's OK. No, I'll tell you why I do because number one, that's the only. Intelligent thoughtful written document that's available about that strike and anybody who's looking into it is to see what's out there they're gonna get so. Yeah,

00:41:58.989 - 00:42:13.840

you want to have, you're right, you're right. Also, the other reason though is because I think To somebody who's never actually been involved in something like this but wants to understand it. You have to see where he's coming from and what the shortcomings in his point

00:42:13.840 - 00:42:33.379

of view are. Well, I think it's around this idea of a strategic discussion in some ways. I think that if you can somehow, it's not to downplay that there needs to be a strategy, but that people who worked as field workers and then cannery workers, um,

00:42:33.429 - 00:42:47.909

who didn't have a chance to go to school, whatever, um. Formulating a strategy is stuff that happens. They're doing it on a constant basis, you know what I mean? They have a talk with so and so on the line and a talk with so and so

00:42:47.909 - 00:43:12.929

and then someone comes over and, you know, my cousin came by and it's, they were just collecting data and opinions and driving it towards something that made some sense for them. See, I, I think Hey, hi, hi, are you back? Yeah, I'm sorry. That's all right.

00:43:14.169 - 00:43:42.889

No, no, no, of course, of course. I didn't even know if you were on vacation. I didn't know what you were doing. OK. That thing's still running. I You Um, we're back on the air here. OK, um, yeah, I mean that was kind of the point

00:43:42.889 - 00:44:02.169

I was making in that stuff that I wrote, uh. Uh, I sent you last night is that it's not as if these people were isolated from the masses. They were talking to them constantly. I think you could quibble about formal democracy in those meetings, you know,

00:44:02.330 - 00:44:21.189

how representative they were. I mean the main thing is. We kind of took the position of the strikers Committee, pretty much had a mandate. To represent the strikers because they were elected in an open democratic meeting and other people were and think about it, so. So

00:44:21.189 - 00:44:41.669

in terms of who's in control, yeah. Is it, um, the old is, you know, Richard King is an extreme right? so a group of workers who all seem to be very well thought of by their coworkers and stuff who were standing up to in a lot

00:44:41.669 - 00:45:01.340

of ways the elected leaders who took control themselves. I mean think about that. Dynamic that was a huge deal for Frank who had another concept in his brain. Sure, was it, but, but there haven't, I, I don't think he could point to. I mean I've been

00:45:01.340 - 00:45:18.300

on a fair number of strikes and been involved. I've never seen this, you know, this, uh, uh, democratic version, so I've never seen a democratic. So what I, so I think what we were stoked about and you know, I'm sure we get too self-satisfied in being

00:45:18.300 - 00:45:34.639

stoked some. was like you said, this is a group of people that that represents different parts of the plant, different groups. They seem to be well thought of. They seem to be, they seem to care about everybody else, um, they know how to conduct themselves. They're

00:45:34.639 - 00:45:52.280

not afraid on. The face of it to stand up to the leadership, you know, Chuck can come to town, whoever they're not, they're not quivering, you know what I mean, uh, so. That seemed like a good place to start for us, I think, you know what

00:45:52.280 - 00:46:09.090

I mean and again, um. Of course we bumped up our own against our own limitations. Well, I mean, I think you could argue that they were not up for it in the final negotiations and that it was necessary for Number one for Joe to kind of

00:46:09.090 - 00:46:23.489

point out that we're going to lose our health benefits that was just a thing that he found. Yeah, no, he found it and he was kind of chy because he was, his whole motivation was they're selling us out, they're selling us out. How are they going

00:46:23.489 - 00:46:36.360

to sell us out? What's the way they're going to do it? He just happened to stumble on something that really, and I don't even think that I don't even think that Alex set out to. That he drop the ball on those negotiations on that one point.

00:46:36.439 - 00:46:50.790

I don't might not even have thought about it. I don't think they thought about it. Now what we could have done is we could have taken a so little of the strike was negotiations, to be honest, so that's why we. You know, for good or bad,

00:46:50.830 - 00:47:05.510

we didn't spend a lot, you know, in other things that I've been involved in negotiations are kind of everything. I, I was just Local 3 just went on strike for 4 days across the over in Alameda. It was all back and forth negotiation this and that.

00:47:06.699 - 00:47:27.899

Um So I think, were they, did we, did we take responsibility, did anyone take responsibility to sort of school them up on the ins and outs of negotiation? I would say no. Absolutely. I mean, Oscar didn't know it, you know what I mean? uh. We didn't,

00:47:27.979 - 00:47:42.959

we didn't even take the people who in our group knew it more, you know, maybe even someone like Arafa or something like that, um, so anyway, we didn't. Or Tracy or you know, if we had to, we could have pulled together more or something but we

00:47:42.959 - 00:48:00.729

didn't pay that much attention to what happened so fast. And you know, I mean, I think. The point being that they they were just willing to defer to Alex and to Sergio I guess too at that point because there was no other they seemed to know

00:48:00.729 - 00:48:16.050

what they were doing well, but there were certain benchmarks that had to meet certain criteria. It couldn't, you know, it went from 660 down to what, 585 or something, so it had to show some visible sign. You couldn't go back to people. Let me go back

00:48:16.050 - 00:48:32.340

to the Shah settlement. Because I think Frank is wrong when he says that the strikers committee supported the Shaw settlement. Uh, I, I haven't talked to anybody who worked at Shaw. I haven't been able to find Aurora, who I guess would be the most likely person.

00:48:32.469 - 00:48:47.770

What I would like to do is, can we find the Unity article? The Unity article that I remember what the headline said. It said Shaw workers railroad. Can we find it though? Yeah, let's get it. It's at the Holt library in San Francisco. Is it? Yes,

00:48:47.899 - 00:49:03.719

OK, I took my I took my complete set of papers and I basically gave it, gave it to them. They're up on Gary, uh, you can go there anytime you just call them up and they'll read it and I, I've got my notes, um. I remember

00:49:03.719 - 00:49:17.620

when we wrote that article. I remember I was trying to make some sense out of what was going on. So I'd like to read that because I, I don't remember to be honest, I'm not very helpful, but I can read some and I remember calling. Calling,

00:49:17.760 - 00:49:33.379

talking to somebody on the phone when all of the trashing was going on on Main Street. I don't know who I talked to, whether it was Oscar, Manuel or Steve. Some guy Uh, and I said, you know, it wasn't Cherie. I said, what happened, you know,

00:49:33.419 - 00:49:51.550

what's going on down there? And the answer I got was everybody went crazy. And that was about the sum total of the analysis we had at that point, but I know that. I remember you and I talking about the Shaw settlements like a freaking sellout. That

00:49:51.550 - 00:50:05.270

was kind of the way I looked at it. It might have been that we didn't feel like we had any reach there. Because we were all Watsonville, we were all we were all we were all centralized Watson, yeah, so I don't know that was the problem,

00:50:05.280 - 00:50:22.939

not just for us. I think that was a problem for a lot of people. Um, Frank says that one thing, and, and Joe says this too. Uh, they didn't realize it at the time, but the strike it, uh, Shaw was already lost because too many of

00:50:22.939 - 00:50:37.129

the key people were scabbing, too many of the mechanics, they were able to keep the plant running, uh. And there were a lot of People, because so many of the workers were from out of town, they didn't feel the same social pressure to respect the picket

00:50:37.129 - 00:50:52.689

lines so that would be an example of not being or not being strategic enough to know because we we had if we had thought about it, we had to come to the conclusion that if Shaw could get picked off, obviously it was going to have an

00:50:52.689 - 00:51:06.159

impact on what we did and actually here is where I think some. If we have that kind of relationship with some of the other forces or with the GDU people, Joe Fahey walked, he got jacked up because he sat through the meeting where they were at

00:51:06.159 - 00:51:21.229

it by the shovel and didn't open his mouth. He was supposed to be the recording secretary. He had just taken on the job a month before. He was really unclear about what his role was, and he did come up with the microphone, but Alex made a

00:51:21.229 - 00:51:37.530

point of not calling on him. And Joe did not insist on the floor and everybody was jacking him up afterwards, you know, why didn't you speak up? Somebody had spoken up, they might have been able to turn the workers against it and so he wasn't prepared

00:51:37.530 - 00:51:52.530

to deal with the situation either. I think here's where precisely because it did involve negotiations and it did involve. The higher levels of the Teamsters Union, not just poor drunken Richard King or never see Sergio, but you know, a guy who really knew what he was

00:51:52.530 - 00:52:09.689

doing. I mean they've been having these these these inspections of the books at Shaw for several weeks. They had the local minister in there watching. They had certain strikers in there, you know, observing the process. And I don't remember any discussion. What did Gloria say? Did

00:52:09.689 - 00:52:27.929

you ask her? They thought they had to do it, so they did it, you know, we weren't happy about it. But we realized we had to go on. I think I remember some line like that that that was what they felt that they had to do

00:52:28.419 - 00:52:42.659

and that they didn't feel like they could sort of speak for them. What I got from either Manuel or Oscar, I don't remember which one of them said this, but it's like. There was a tremendous amount of resentment to Shaw workers among the rank and file

00:52:42.659 - 00:52:59.800

people at Watsonvilleanon. And also this real kind of spirited defeatism. Well, sure, you know, Jesus, how can we win this? They just stabbed us in the back. We're out there fighting a good fight alone now, and that it was really up to Gloria and what did

00:52:59.800 - 00:53:15.629

they settle for 585. You know, it was a pretty substantial pay cut. In fact, you know, when I talked to Jim Galle after the strike. Uh, I wanted to get a statement from him, you know, congratulating them or something like that. He said, What did they

00:53:15.629 - 00:53:27.669

go out for? What were they making when they went out? And I told him what they settled for and I told him, why is that a victory. And I said, Well, once the Shaw people sold for 585, they weren't going to get their original wages back

00:53:27.669 - 00:53:48.409

and he said that's exactly what Louie Anderson said to us. That's when I kind of lost patience with Jim Galla. Uh, but you know, I mean, that's a whole other, there's a certain kind of mentality too, I think. You know, the whole kind of democratic Union

00:53:48.409 - 00:54:10.649

and the white oppositional mentality, he's their idea, the ideal rank and file fighter, you know. And he Kind of fucked up. In a lot of ways. Um, anyway, um. So You know 5 I think was just we were just out of the loop on the settlement.

00:54:12.739 - 00:54:33.469

I want to read and see, but yeah, we certainly weren't on top of it, but we go to the library we didn't we didn't support it, I'm sure, but yeah, I just, we might have just taken the line that we couldn't stop. I've got handwritten notes

00:54:33.469 - 00:55:00.810

from my copy that I made before where is the Holt Library in 4th, I think. I'll I'll email you. Yeah, they've got kind of literature, but they were very, very eager to get the whole thing I you know my extra copies of, you know, a

00:55:00.810 - 00:55:21.100

few odds and ends. I'm not sure if I have them all or not. I think I do. I still have some. I think I do. Everything that I wrote and I. OK. Uh. You know, um, What I wish I had with the TCs. Oscar wrote a

00:55:21.100 - 00:55:43.320

wonderful piece in the TC fairly late in the game where he just talked about his personal history, which you know maybe he still has it. Um Sadie had a piece like that too, which was printed in very boulderized form in East Wind. The original was much

00:55:43.320 - 00:55:58.139

better, you know, in East Wind they cut out all the cuss words and all the lump and shit that was so characteristic of Sadie's upbringing, you know, but you know, in the original version you really understood where she was coming from, where her politics came from.

00:55:59.600 - 00:56:20.189

Um And what I remember was her. Saying I was brought up not to place a great value on human life. And then she put in parentheses, you ain't shit. I'd never really thought about the implications of that. I heard it all the time, but you know,

00:56:20.310 - 00:56:36.830

and it's classic kind of gang banger talk. That's what it means. Human life isn't worth much. You know, That was, I read that and I had the aha moment, yeah, um, but of course that got cut out when it was printed in East Wind because the

00:56:36.830 - 00:56:54.040

word shit might offend somebody, that kind of thing, um. So 5 people slate, I, I think we talked about it. We were well we didn't talk about the people slate at all, and I have no knowledge at all about how. That meeting Manuel told me a

00:56:54.040 - 00:57:07.270

little bit about it. He said there were a couple of meetings. Uh, we weren't at the strikers Committee meeting where the striker committee was elected, but when we were nominating people for union office in November, Manuel said there were a couple of meetings at the Baharo

00:57:07.270 - 00:57:22.550

Church at the assumption Church. He said that there was an attempt to negotiate a unified slate in TDU, but it broke down because as Mael represented Gloria wanted to run for the top spot and so did Joe, but that's not accurate because Gloria did not run

00:57:22.550 - 00:57:43.250

for the top spot. Her brother did and and probably shouldn't have. One thinks that was a big mistake. Because the guy just didn't have it, you know, she ran for vice president, the treasurer, so Armando was going to run against Sergio and Gloria wound up running

00:57:43.250 - 00:58:03.370

against Jose, and Joe did not run for anything except business agent and recording secretary, and he basically ran an independent campaign because he had a terrible falling out with Jose. I think they pretty much stopped working together after that. Um, Because Jose wanted to take on

00:58:03.370 - 00:58:25.370

Sergio, and Joe said that's ridiculous. We can't beat him. No one can beat him. And you know what are you a sellout, you know, that kind of thing. So wait, so what happened then? What happened was Jose Lopez wanted. to run against Sergio Joe did not

00:58:25.370 - 00:58:39.199

think that Armando was a viable candidate. He thought he was kind of a weak character. In fact, he said he tried to talk Manuel out of putting Armando on the slate for the people slates. That guy hasn't got what it takes. He's not going to do

00:58:39.199 - 00:58:56.860

it. And I think Manuel has concluded that Joe was right, you know, um, whether because his wife was not supportive. Or because Alex got to him, which Alex did. That he was a reluctant candidate. He felt like he wasn't qualified. He did not have a supportive

00:58:56.860 - 00:59:17.610

personal situation. Um, and you know Gloria still bitter at him for, you know, backing out like that. It certainly killed any chance she might have had of making a respectable showing. But you know the way, who won the election? Well, Sergio was unopposed, right? Leon Ellis

00:59:17.610 - 00:59:36.000

won the presidency, Sergio didn't like Leon very much either and actually kind of surreptitiously encouraged Joe to run against him even though formally he supported Leo. This is like 2 years later. Ellis was kind of a shit, but at least he wasn't like Heer or King,

00:59:36.100 - 01:00:00.000

you know, um. I think generally. As much tension as there was between them, Sergio probably worked better with Joe than he did with with Ellis just because Joe was a little more with it, you know. Um, so then we had a new, uh, administration and we

01:00:00.000 - 01:00:13.810

still have the strikers committee, right, yeah, and you know. The big thing in these times is all based on why couldn't these left forces are so busy bickering with each other they couldn't even come up with a unified slate and they handed the election to the

01:00:13.810 - 01:00:30.260

old guard, which is, I think, the way a lot of people who weren't in Watsonville were trying to make sense out of it. Why can't be a unified slate. Right, um, but there we had as much we had as much unity with Sergio as we did

01:00:30.260 - 01:00:46.040

with TDU, to be honest, at that point. So that analysis, while on the surface it looks like you're all considered to be on the left and you should agree it wasn't really true. Well, do you really think that we, did we really feel that way about

01:00:46.040 - 01:00:58.830

Sergio that early in the game? I mean, I, I know that as time went on, we sort of felt like this is a guy that You know, He's not going to make too much trouble for us, you know, Steve said he was like a puppy dog,

01:00:58.909 - 01:01:13.889

you know. Well, I think if we had a choice, I don't think we had the choice, but if we had a choice of having him in or having TDU in, we would have picked him. Well, for one thing, and this is something that Mar pointed out,

01:01:13.929 - 01:01:39.250

it's like. Just the administrative responsibility of running a local, it's virtually been bankrupted by its previous leader. has no infrastructure in place to lead this incredibly difficult strike. I mean, um. Ser at least was an experienced union bureaucrat. He knew how to do a lot of

01:01:39.250 - 01:01:53.449

nods in his way towards the strikers in whatever way he could hear him tell it, he wanted to work with everybody. He tried to bring everybody in. He even met with Frank and Joe Fahey before the strike and said it looks like we're going to have

01:01:53.449 - 01:02:07.610

a strike. Do you guys have any bright ideas. And they said, Well, we actually were expecting you to have some bright ideas. You're in charge, aren't you just outsiders, you know, um, they told me that story in this kind of floating way, but it actually it

01:02:07.610 - 01:02:23.050

occurs to me that if they had been a little more flexible in their mindset, they might have seen that as an opportunity, you know, I, I just have a sense Oscar would be better than Gloria, but. And maybe it's not that everybody even had the same

01:02:23.050 - 01:02:41.310

opinion, but my sense at the time was that we were gonna, yeah, was he perfect? No, but you know, because of all the, the larger issues that we had about, you know, condos and this and that, we still, I think we still thought that he was

01:02:41.310 - 01:02:54.169

somebody that we were gonna be able to figure out a way to work with. Well, that was the way you represented on a visceral level we had more unity with him than we have with TDU. That's, I think that's that's how I felt, I think whether

01:02:54.169 - 01:03:07.830

or not that's fair or whatever, I think that that's how I felt. Well, I think it was Oscar said that the problem with Sergio was that there were just certain people he just refused to work with. He would have nothing to do with Gloria. You know

01:03:07.830 - 01:03:30.120

she probably should have had a leadership position in the union after the strike, and he wouldn't let her come close. He wouldn't let Ku have any kind of responsibility, although she eventually became an officer in local 912. I find that interesting. You know, he, he probably

01:03:30.120 - 01:03:44.810

found it easier to work with guys, you know, even if he didn't share their politics. Uh, he's just traditional enough for that. No, I'm not making him out to be a saint. I just think that um. There's something, and I, I should think some more about

01:03:44.810 - 01:04:04.139

it, but there's something about the, the formulation of being quote unquote on the left that we in many of our areas of work, um. Sort of defied the odds on. We didn't, we didn't take a normal sort of left position all the time. Well, I'll speak

01:04:04.139 - 01:04:22.739

for myself. Um, After the election, we said, well, Sergio ran unopposed, but this is the first time this union has been led by a guy who was Mexican, you know, not some white dude. I thought we were just trying to put a happy face on a

01:04:22.739 - 01:04:37.939

bad situation for the sake of, you know, keeping the morale up and keeping it look like the strike had not suffered a setback. I always assumed. Yeah, and I think that that's that's a difference in our experience. I think I actually believed it more and I

01:04:37.939 - 01:04:55.350

think because you come from a more established left pole, I didn't know, I didn't know the guy. No, no, but your whole family, your father was in the Communist Party. You, you have a more of a, a self-assuredness of a left pole than I do than

01:04:55.350 - 01:05:12.129

I ever did and that I do now. So I think that I. Bought part of the thing that there was some advantage to with that workforce to have someone like Sergio who at least was not going to be a Richard King. But I, you know, I

01:05:12.129 - 01:05:27.790

just assumed that he was King's protege. That I think each of us had a position based on where we were at at the time and I made a lot of assumptions about Sergio. I didn't know the guy from Adam. I think the first thing to turn

01:05:27.790 - 01:05:47.830

my head around him was in '93 I heard him speak. Justice for janitors event that where Cardenas came up to talk about NAFTA. And Cartness was not very good. There were a bunch of these janitors working the midnight shift, you know, uh, who really they wanted

01:05:47.830 - 01:06:01.229

to go home. You know, he says, what's wrong? What's wrong with getting some more some American corporations investing in Mexico and creating some jobs down there. We could, we wouldn't have to come up here and bust our butts, be separated from our families. Cardenist had no

01:06:01.229 - 01:06:15.909

answer for it. Sergio did. What did you say? He said, look, he said, I, I came up in the school system in Mexico just like you guys did. I learned from the same history books you did. You tell me when did American corporations investing in our

01:06:15.909 - 01:06:33.510

country ever bring us anything but grief? You, we all know what Standard Oil did to our country. I thought Jesus Christ, this guy should be the featured speaker at this event, not this rigging liberal politician, you know, he's much more in tune with the workers. What

01:06:33.510 - 01:06:53.540

he's saying makes much more sense politically, and he's giving an anti-imperialist rap, you know, I mean just trying to recreate the conditions, I think probably what I heard. I'm going to guess is that Even at that time Chivello was able to work with him more and

01:06:53.540 - 01:07:06.540

I knew that Gloria had a good relationship so I think that I, and you know I don't know what I'm remembering and what I'm filling in the the blanks on, but I seem to think that that was part of it what we were thinking is that

01:07:06.899 - 01:07:24.010

we thought we had some way to at least have some communication and we knew that. With Gloria we're always gonna have sort of a presence outside of it so we weren't worried about getting too chummy uh in that way um so and I, I think to

01:07:24.010 - 01:07:39.260

be honest I don't think we thought we were really ready for to take the local so I don't think that I don't remember that being something that we put a ton. Uh, of energy into I think once it was a little bit like once Gloria made

01:07:39.260 - 01:07:57.379

her decision where she was gonna go, um, I think we just kind of worked around it, um, and again and you know uh it's I'm sure it's fair to call it sectarianism on a certain level, but. There was not a lot of wringing of the hands

01:07:57.379 - 01:08:18.790

for not being able to unite with Frank or Joe or something. Well, realistically, and, and again I, I never, I always had a different reaction to Joe, but I didn't see him as separate from uh. Frank didn't see him at that point I don't think he

01:08:18.790 - 01:08:33.279

was. I think they drifted apart when he became a union official and he got sick of Frank sniping at him all the time, you know, I think he looked to Frank as a mentor when he first got involved and anytime he was stumped, he would call

01:08:33.279 - 01:08:45.398

up Frank and say, What should I do? And then he, I think gradually began to realize that Frank didn't have all the answers that his answers are not that helpful. Uh, and I think he probably talked to Frank a lot more than he talked to the

01:08:45.398 - 01:09:00.149

CP, yeah. But again at the time I, I wasn't, and maybe this is something that Fred Hirsch could help me with because you know, uh, because I would like to know how much they influence Joe's thinking. You know, I do think that he came around to

01:09:00.149 - 01:09:21.379

a more You know, whatever else you can say about those guys, they know how unions work, yeah, and um. They could see, you know, where. A lot of the stuff that Frank was pushing, they wouldn't have taken very seriously. I think if they accused us of

01:09:21.379 - 01:09:39.689

being too chummy with the union, it was because we were To chummy with the bad guys in the union, the ones they wanted to replace, you know. No, they definitely would have had more perspective on it, but again, we were not. In the mood to listen.

01:09:43.410 - 01:09:55.129

Well, I think in terms of the Shaw settlement that probably did hurt because I think that was one situation where there should have been some strategic discussion. The moment it was clear that Alex was negotiating with Shaw and that he was basically trying to look for

01:09:55.129 - 01:10:10.859

a way to extricate the teamsters from. The fight with him. I'm, I'm not even sure Alex was wrong. Because Shaw really was, well, I don't think there was a force, you know, if you look at it the other way around, instead of Alex setting the tone.

01:10:11.959 - 01:10:26.299

There wasn't enough leadership or in the workers to push Alex, so then it was kind of like, OK, well this is what it is. Well, I guess when I say Alex wasn't wrong necessarily. I mean his perception that Shaw was someone the union could work with,

01:10:26.310 - 01:10:47.430

he'd be willing to bargain with the union wasn't trying to bust the union, but consul. You know, pushed him to the brink of bankruptcy. His company was horribly overcapitalized, but Richard King 585, that's true. He didn't need that big of a cut. Yeah, 35, 65 585.

01:10:47.520 - 01:11:02.470

That's actually what Frank said. He said he said. Maybe they could have, maybe they need to settle with to isolate counsel, but they didn't have to take that big of a pay cut, especially with that me too clause written into it, you know that Alex gave

01:11:02.470 - 01:11:20.450

up way too much, but there was nobody there at that meeting to speak out against it and say there's an alternative, and I think we could have played that role. Had we been talking to Frank, Or had we been talking to Joe or had we even

01:11:20.450 - 01:11:37.600

tried to. Keep abreast of what was going on when Alex was in there negotiating with Shaw. Sure we might have been able to stop that or at least stop. I don't think it too much because they had so much support, so we would have had to

01:11:37.600 - 01:11:51.490

do it a long time before that. We would have had to pay attention to that line you know Aurora. I mean, all I've heard, I mean. She's the one person whose name I know who turned up in the pages of unity as well, you know, in

01:11:51.490 - 01:12:07.950

those interviews we did, and I know she continued to be at. She's the one person from Shaw who remained active in the strikers committee after the settlement. Shah and Shari said yeah she was. Tough and reasonable, I think was the way she recharacterized her. I mean

01:12:07.950 - 01:12:25.549

she was very steadfast, but you could talk to her. She'd consider different points of view, that kind of thing. Um, I wish I could find her. She'd probably be a great interview, you know, I haven't been able to locate her. Uh Trujillo is her last name,

01:12:25.589 - 01:12:48.870

right? Trujillo, yeah. Let's see. You know, the one Shaw striker I met, he had little ice cream parlor on the corner of Main Street, you know, I, I interviewed the woman who runs it, uh, that's Esther Gonzalez, um. Her partner in the business, uh, her husband

01:12:48.870 - 01:13:12.509

worked at Shaw. And I didn't interview her because I would have needed translation, you know. Esther's from Sacramento, so she was very easy for her to talk to me. Um, But Her partner's husband. Voted to go, voted to accept the agreement and go back. He'd had

01:13:12.509 - 01:13:30.060

enough of striking, you know, I just didn't want to sacrifice anymore. Um, I kind of made a decision not to write very much about Shaw because I think the real stories of Vulcan anyway, but it's the problem is I don't have any connections with Shaw either.

01:13:30.330 - 01:13:46.220

Well, and that's a much deeper story that you could you could spend another year going into that one. Yeah, I guess the only reason I bring it up is because I think this is one area where maybe some of that strategic discussion. Together enough to do

01:13:46.220 - 01:14:00.450

it, you know, I agree it's not just Frank Bartic head tripping. I mean, no, no, no, no, no, no, I'm just saying. The, the model of what it looks like. I'm not, I'm not, hopefully you're not thinking that I'm, I'm not saying you shouldn't have a

01:14:00.450 - 01:14:18.529

strategy, of course you should, but uh. Yeah, well, it's, it's, you know, I, I think we did make a decision. That our job was to build leadership from the ranks of the workers to give them the tools they need to take responsibility, and so forth. They

01:14:18.529 - 01:14:32.009

were the people who mattered, not the kind of hangers on the left who wanted to be supportive, had all sorts of ideas about what to do. This was not a liaison type situation. Manuel said that stuff just didn't interest me at all. I never understood why

01:14:32.009 - 01:14:46.100

we wasted so much time. Doing liaison with these other left groups when they weren't doing squat. Well, we didn't do a lot, to be honest. We didn't do a lot. I don't think he was referring to you or Oscar. I think he was referring to like,

01:14:46.149 - 01:15:03.209

you know, those. The stuff that Carmen was always doing, you know, or whatever, you know, um. But I, I think you're right when you say that to some extent that was a shortcoming too. Yeah, I mean if we were going to be who we, I mean

01:15:03.209 - 01:15:21.649

think about it, we were like teenagers in terms of we might have had the most left work of anybody, I mean almost labor work, but most that we didn't have a lot and so any seasoned person who understood pattern bargaining and all these kinds of things

01:15:21.649 - 01:15:38.250

could have just helped us analyze the whole thing. And then we would have had a, I mean, I, I would approach it much differently now even from an intellectual point of view, um, so we did not do all that stuff. We, we should have if we

01:15:38.250 - 01:15:56.560

were gonna sort of assume the mantle of being more in leadership, but we clearly didn't. How would you respond to. The notion that to some extent we were guilty of tailing in that strike. We didn't assert any independent leadership enough that we kind of tended to

01:15:56.560 - 01:16:24.410

follow whatever the the more advanced workers wanted to do. Well, I think sometimes we did, but um I think we. Made some decisions, um. Like, I'm trying to think of that meeting. There was a, there was a time when the strikers committee turned their nose up

01:16:24.410 - 01:16:45.759

at the At the the Teamsters kind of early on. And I, I remember being there and I remember the feeling of how it was and I was really proud of them. Um, There were some critical times, I think, and I should put some more thought into

01:16:45.759 - 01:17:07.020

when that we, we had to bend. It wasn't just like whatever they woke up wanting to do we thought was cool, so. Uh, They might have knew that they needed some connection to the leadership, but You know, Gloria on a regular level, she couldn't get along

01:17:07.020 - 01:17:21.379

with any of them. So if we just let it be on that, we never would have worked with anybody, you know what I mean? So we had to shape it in a way that we thought was gonna win, but we didn't take it far enough so

01:17:21.379 - 01:17:47.609

obviously to leave Shaw unattended was was a mistake, but to. Forge a connection with both Sergio and the Teamsters was more our doing than was their spontaneous inclination. The sense I get, I mean. Chuck Mac, of course, tends to A lot of what he says is

01:17:47.609 - 01:18:07.680

self-serving. Uh, that's true of everybody really to one degree or another, but especially so of him, but you know, I think he. He regarded, he had always regarded Richard King as a huge embarrassment to the Teamsters Union. Frank said even in '82 when they were contesting

01:18:07.680 - 01:18:26.009

the election, he had this feeling that You know, if somebody other than Frank had been running, he would have been delighted to see King ousted. And he might even be better able to deal with Frank. Ken, you know, this guy is. King had contempt for the

01:18:26.009 - 01:18:46.779

joint counsel. He was an alcoholic, you know, he, he basically had a kind of a pedro type arrangement with the owners. That's the way Alex described it. They did not like him. And I think Chuck Mac was very excited by the idea of this sort of

01:18:46.779 - 01:19:03.890

new. Leadership coming up from the ranks to take over that local and get it on an even keel, but we didn't know that we didn't know that. No, no, so. What we were encouraging, I'm not saying it was all uphill because from what you've uncovered from

01:19:03.890 - 01:19:25.620

Alex and everybody else, they were open to it, but it wouldn't have happened without a lot of steering and encouragement uh from us because that's not the way we, you have to rely on the masses. Well, we, we even had to um. As I remember it,

01:19:26.029 - 01:19:45.629

um, we had to even, uh, win Oscar over. I don't think Oscar wanted to, to go in that direction, really, um. You mean in terms of working with the union, or yeah, I mean, I think, I think there was times and it's like an undercover policeman

01:19:45.629 - 01:20:03.549

it seems to me is that our organizers. Their, their day to day air every day, their sustenance was working with these folks and, and they got to be really close with them and, and, and so when And I, so I was, they were close to them

01:20:03.549 - 01:20:17.839

and I was close to our folks and so when I would go back and we would be snapping the line somewhere someplace new, I would resist first, then I would bring it down, then they would resist. Then you know what I mean, we, it, it went

01:20:17.839 - 01:20:38.609

through those, those uh those pieces, I think. This is very interesting to me because um. I don't know if you remember Al Richmond's little rap about the, the Chrysler strike in 37. I remember Al Richmond, but I don't remember the rap. Well, he writes about it

01:20:38.609 - 01:21:00.720

in his book, um. To him that was a big turning point. It's like The workers did not want to accept the settlement that John L. Lewis had negotiated. And the party cadre and the plant were arguing against it. We can do better than this. And uh

01:21:00.720 - 01:21:16.779

Earl Browder basically jumped on them all. You know, And said, you know, you're jeopardizing this promising alliance that we're building at the national level which is going to transform this country, country, you know, blah blah. And Alice's comment was, wait a minute, isn't it supposed to

01:21:16.779 - 01:21:31.509

be about the guys down there in the trenches, aren't the ones we're supposed to represent? You know, How much are we going to of their interests are we willing to sacrifice for the sake of maintaining this coalition with John Lewis? Of course that's always the question.

01:21:31.520 - 01:21:47.899

Yeah, you know how much quid pro quo is involved, but that's every single decision pretty much, yeah, I mean, and I suppose in retrospect. They didn't give up that much when they accepted the settlement, but the whole way it was done, the way it was rationalized

01:21:47.899 - 01:22:05.529

from Alice's point of view, it just sort of Foreshadowed what was to come. And you know, the party just sort of became an appendage to the Democratic Party during the war and you know, that kind of thing and uh it stopped being a real serious wars,

01:22:05.609 - 01:22:28.740

you know. Anyway, I mean, that's It is, I mean, negotiating that attention, it's always there and all of it, you know, to be honest, has to be put in the context of how much. How much of reality are you shaping? So we I think you can

01:22:28.740 - 01:22:46.870

say legitimately and other people help, but we probably. had the biggest piece of it. We took something in a tiny little town outside of San Francisco and everybody. You know, in a certain part of the society across the country, you heard about it. You know, you,

01:22:47.279 - 01:23:05.549

uh, when I asked Catherine, you know, and these are obviously people who are nearby, she says, every semester. There's like 10 students that come by and do papers on this thing. This is this is going on forever, you know what I mean? So but by bringing

01:23:05.549 - 01:23:24.410

students and other sectors, you know what I mean, that was something. It was something we needed to do a lot more of. It's something we needed to figure out how to do better and sustain, but that At that time, when it was sort of after Patco

01:23:24.680 - 01:23:43.100

and people were really in the doldrums, you know, uh, Hormel was going on and so we were, we were trying to figure out something. That made sense and. Did it fit our little. View of the world of the lower strata and all those things, yeah, and

01:23:43.100 - 01:24:03.319

you know, was it self-serving in that way that it kind of represented some things that we thought made sense, yeah. Um, but I don't think we sacrificed the welfare of the folks, um. Do you remember just getting back to the details kind of down from the

01:24:03.319 - 01:24:21.399

strategic discussion. Do you remember the sequence of events around this, the formation of the people slate and the whole breakdown and negotiations. Are you in a position to talk about that at all or were you just were you just out of that? That was happening was

01:24:21.399 - 01:24:33.439

happening, but I would have to read something to remind me. I mean, most of these things I have to read something else to remind me of the timing, the sequence. I mean, Manuel said there were a couple of meetings at the church. I don't know how

01:24:33.439 - 01:24:49.729

the meetings were called, who called them. I know that. We had our support committee and we basically You mentioned the sum up that because the support committee was trying to work with the various higher levels of the union, it was important that the people slate look

01:24:49.729 - 01:25:10.720

like it have its own independent existence and also it wasn't and that's what everyone called themselves. That's what everyone call themselves the support like Cherie and Oscar was the only open person and I guess people knew about Manuel because when he applied for the TDU job,

01:25:10.729 - 01:25:36.799

he sat on the I'm unity. I hope you guys don't mind I'm gonna do it, you know, so certainly at least can frankly savvy enough to figure out who is who. Oscar was the only open person. Um The The question I think is to how much

01:25:36.799 - 01:25:55.629

the strikers Committee and the people's slate were identified. Um, one of the things that Jim Brock said. When he was interviewed by that undergraduate from Santa Cruz, who said Totally dismissive of the people slate. He said they picked the most assimilated people. The ones who spoke

01:25:55.629 - 01:26:08.109

good English and were therefore less militant, he said they really should have been called the Entertainment committee because that's what they did. They put on these events to raise people's spirits, but they didn't do any of the really serious work of trying to figure out the

01:26:08.109 - 01:26:27.419

direction for the strike. And as far as I'm concerned, the committee was mainly Pulled together to elect people to union office after the election happened, they stopped meeting, you know. I don't know where he gets this stuff. I don't know the guy. He seems like an

01:26:27.419 - 01:26:50.720

asshole to me from this interview, but I'm assuming that some of what he says has some basis because the strikers committee still existed, so why would we invest in another organizational form? I don't understand. I didn't, I didn't follow you there, so. What is he saying?

01:26:50.770 - 01:27:08.450

He's saying that the strikers basically existed mainly to get people elected to union office, and as evidence he cites the fact the people slate or the strikers. He's talking about the strikers, the strikers, that's ridiculous because they're the ones who fed everybody, did the hardship, kept

01:27:08.450 - 01:27:23.500

the line going, who basically kept the strike moving. What is he talking about? OK, I mean, I, I'm taking this guy with a grain of salt, Jim Brock. He was the Santa Cruz support Committee, I think he was CP. He works for CSCA down down in

01:27:23.500 - 01:27:41.870

Southern California now. I mean, I don't. I don't have to respond to him, you know, but, but he did the one thing that he, the one thing he said that struck me was he said that. After the election, the strikers Committee pretty much stopped meeting. And

01:27:42.240 - 01:27:56.540

that kind of stuck in my head because I remember in our sum up we said that after the election and then with the Shah settlement. People got very demoralized that period like in January, February, and thereabouts that some of our own people were wondering what the

01:27:56.540 - 01:28:14.229

strike was winnable. Gloria got very depressed because she was so badly beaten. Um there was a dip, yeah, you know, and I think it was at that point that you said people like May and so forth who were working in other areas of labor started getting

01:28:14.229 - 01:28:28.229

input into how to salvage things, and that was where it got a much more sophisticated. Line about what it would actually take to win the strike and what kind of relationship we're going to have with the Teamsters, what it would take to keep them engaged in

01:28:28.229 - 01:28:44.350

the strike, and that stuff was not talked about much before. We were also fixated on the terrible leadership of local 912 and I think it was only several months in. I remember these discussions when it started, I mean we had to make it up because we

01:28:44.350 - 01:29:00.959

didn't, there was no blueprint for how we were going to pull this thing out, absolutely. But that that discussion didn't really start until kind of the the the doldrums, you know, after the election and then and then Shaw settled right after the election was over. The

01:29:00.959 - 01:29:21.490

election, the results were right late December of '85, um. That little rump group that started, you know, Teamsters United 912, and I asked you about them. Wait, December of '95, 85, I mean 85, that's only a little after this election was the people's late was formed

01:29:21.490 - 01:29:43.839

in November. The balloting was, I think, in mid December. When did the strike start? the strike started in September. Yeah, so that's basically saying that that that nothing happened for a year. I don't know, I'm getting confused now. The was towards the end. Yeah, no, and

01:29:43.839 - 01:30:02.950

I think there's a consensus among everybody who's talking honestly about this stuff that the strikers committee became much more of a force and you know, after consult after the certification recertification vote. Um, when it actually became in order to get the in order to win the

01:30:02.950 - 01:30:19.470

vote, it was a force, right, but you started having these mass meetings of 150, 200 people, you know, week after week that came later on when the whole thing is what do you do about Wells Fargo, what do you do about the new owner when this

01:30:19.470 - 01:30:36.549

strike could actually be one we're actually, you know, we've got console in bankruptcy court now, um, and at that point. And that's when we started having these joint meetings with, you know, the other, other left forces too, you know, um, I've got some of Steve Moazumi's

01:30:36.549 - 01:30:54.040

handwritten notes on those, you know, sort of jarring with Karen Fahey and that kind of stuff. And Bartiy in his article Against the Current says, you know, toward the end, you know, the last months of the strike, something like a principled relationship developed between different forces

01:30:54.040 - 01:31:17.200

would be the end would be like January '86, right? And you know, I think what was going on at the end we're talking about January of '87. Now in '86. I mean 87, yeah, but I think The strikers Committee had the main responsibility for pulling off

01:31:17.200 - 01:31:41.609

the certification vote in August. Everybody acknowledges that after that vote was won. Um, The whole Kind of a game changer. People started seeing the strikers, we can actually win this thing. Uh, people became much more actively engaged. The meetings got, well, we had, it was like

01:31:41.609 - 01:32:02.080

a blood transfusion. It was like a blood transfusion, yeah, yeah, absolutely, yeah, um, and, um, I think that the the key period is like between. The election in December of '85 and Whenever it was that Dwayne Beeson came up with the idea of having a recertification

01:32:02.080 - 01:32:18.959

vote, I think it would have been in June or July. And petitioned the NLRB for that vote. There was a period of about 6 months. And I think at that point nobody knew what to do, you know, the TDU chapter had pretty much fallen apart. They

01:32:18.959 - 01:32:38.850

made an attempt to pull things together again, OK, but I think the one thing that we shouldn't fall into, yes, do we have a clear pathway to victory? No, but An 18 month strike where there's a 6 or 8 month period where it's not clear where

01:32:38.850 - 01:32:57.950

it's going and you're still keeping people out. Um, and you're dealing with all the, the problem solving of doing that. That's what the activity was, so it's not as strategic and it's not as glamorous in a certain way, but that's what a long strike needs. It

01:32:57.950 - 01:33:09.140

needs a glue to hold people together like that. Well, one of the first things that Joe said to me when I interviewed him was this is where the league was indispensable, is kind of holding things together when nobody knew what to do or what the future

01:33:09.140 - 01:33:23.970

was gonna hold. Just finding a way for people what he refers to is the picket and prey period, which is kind of way to describe it I think yeah and I think that and so that's the part that I'm reacting to that that people um and

01:33:23.970 - 01:33:40.419

I've I've been when I was in Chicago, I, I kept going to Indiana for these strikes and stuff and to be honest in this job that I'm in now, uh, the role that I've played in strikes is a glue, so you have to. Someone has to

01:33:40.419 - 01:33:53.990

hold everybody together as you're figuring out where to go and the committee continue to have those weekly meetings all the way through this as far as you know? I don't know if they were weekly. I would guess that they might have been less than that, but

01:33:53.990 - 01:34:14.370

or they might have been nominal or nominally, but more people would miss it and they probably have high and lows, but um again it was a constant wave of. Solving, you know, more food, more money for this, uh, more support, more, um, without, without knowing what

01:34:14.370 - 01:34:28.810

the end was going to look like, we, we spent a lot of time holding things together. There was that Women's Day event and I remember the Hormel strikers came to town, you know, and that that march over the Highway 17 was organized, and there was a

01:34:28.810 - 01:34:53.410

reference in one of these things to people going to the APWU national convention. Uh, there's a bunch of I don't know about that, but I do know that I was a male antler at that point. Ross. The thing that I did with Arcadio. was talking about,

01:34:53.509 - 01:35:10.629

oh, it was in this thing by Hector. Who the hell is Hector Ramos? Is who? Who's Hector Ramos? I don't know. Is this an internal document? These are things you gave back to me. 00, OK, you know, I didn't even read this, Tom. You should. OK,

01:35:10.729 - 01:35:35.189

I will. I mean, um. OK, that's OK. So then I should have that sum up in there too. I didn't even realize this was in there. Um, Yeah, this one. So yeah, let me, let me have another look at this. But the reason that this is

01:35:35.189 - 01:35:55.240

helpful and I don't even know who the hell that is, is, but that was our thought process that we were, it has a really long one on local too, um, uh, Latinos who needos. Uh, being formed inside local too, so we had, uh, a lot of.

01:35:57.299 - 01:36:15.279

The stuff that we had been working on that was informing what we were trying to do. Uh, which was not something that we, um, we didn't believe that that was something that was being supported, that instead we were, it was being called kind of a nationalist

01:36:15.279 - 01:36:47.089

or a divisive, um, approach. So we were, I thought, fighting upstream on some of that stuff. This looks like it was written. Before the Watsonville strike. And it may very well have been something that Mike Johnston had, you know, in his files. Well, no, it's not,

01:36:47.500 - 01:37:06.240

it's describing our work. It's not a question of reading a paper. It's all stuff that we did. That's what I'm trying to I mean, it looks like a school paper to me, yes, but it's, it's a school discussion of our work. OK, I'll read it. You

01:37:06.240 - 01:37:23.830

know, I think that's what it has both coach, it has superior, OK, OK, then it would be good for me to read that. Um, So you know you were saying I think it's uh 4:45. We've got coffee in there too, yeah, I'll get you some, uh,

01:37:23.910 - 01:37:48.399

maybe 15 minutes. We need a different process at some point. We, I mean, to not have you be. Shuttle diplomacy through we may need to think about. You know, can we get? X number of people in the room at the same time. And Um Really mainly

01:37:48.399 - 01:38:02.709

for the conversation to, to drill down on certain details because. What will happen is somebody will say, remember we were talking about something and then someone will say no, but then remember you said something or so and so said something and we'll be like, you know,

01:38:02.799 - 01:38:14.700

do you remember that day that Oscar and I were in your living room in Half Moon Bay? I mean, I, I've got a tape of the interview I did with Oscar which I listened to again just in his office down there, you know, on Main Street,

01:38:15.279 - 01:38:29.080

and I've got the tape of the thing in your living room. And from the point of view of writing, the interview I did directly with the Oscar, the more formal interview is much more helpful, but The sense I got was that when we were in your

01:38:29.080 - 01:38:42.750

living room, you guys were kind of riffing and you were. Well, it's good for you guys. Well, no, but that's the first time we had done it, so I'm just saying, yeah, and, and you should decide whatever works, but I'm just saying on certain of these

01:38:42.750 - 01:39:00.859

things where there's a detail, I don't know if you're going to get anyone who actually remembers, I mean, someone like Mzumi who's got all his millions of notes. Did you ever get all of his notebooks? Uh, he gave me everything that was sitting in his parents'

01:39:00.859 - 01:39:15.649

basement. You know, which included some handwritten notes of meetings, some or a lot, a lot. Well, no, I think about 3 or 4 meetings, not a whole lot, and he doesn't date them, although he took notes of everything. I know, I know. Where are all those

01:39:15.649 - 01:39:30.700

notebooks threw away. I don't know. He might have thrown them into the trash when, you know, it's like so many other the shredder. I say fine, but internal notes is what we're looking for. Yeah, no, I don't actually there is some of that because. If there

01:39:30.700 - 01:39:48.660

was a meeting with, you know. The Watsonville strike Support Committee of the Santa Cruz Strike Support Committee or Frank Barday or whatever, and we're trying to kind of smooth over some of the differences. Um, the first, and that those notes have helped me because the first.

01:39:49.310 - 01:40:03.379

I realized that Joe was brought up on charges after the riot on Main Street. was when in one of these meetings, Joe said, you know, I was being called on the carpet by Joint Council 7 and Gloria was the only one who showed up to support

01:40:03.379 - 01:40:17.419

me. So I said to Joe, what was that all about? He goes, Oh, didn't you know about my, my trial? Uh, you know, I got a hold of the transcript of it. And I read it and you know it just told me all sorts of stuff

01:40:17.419 - 01:40:36.799

I didn't know um. And um You know, there's a in Barnay's collection, of course, he saved all the stuff that's important to him, and now it's on file at SF State. There's a letter from Sergio. Saying you're no longer welcome in the union hall, as stated,

01:40:36.879 - 01:40:49.370

you know. June of '86. And I showed that to Steve, and Steve said, you know, we tried to struggle with him. We tried to warn him he was going to get thrown out of the hall. He didn't. You know, cut out some of that shit he

01:40:49.370 - 01:41:03.339

was saying, you know, he just wasn't accomplishing anything. We didn't want him to get thrown out of the hall, you know, but it was like he had to sort of stop being so damn. I remember that, you know, happening, and I mean, Cruz is another one.

01:41:03.370 - 01:41:25.709

I mean it's like. Um, She didn't have any sense of boundaries about what was inappropriate for an outsider to say in a union hall. You know, um, was she CP? I haven't heard anybody say that. Um, I think we thought she was, you know, Cherie said

01:41:25.709 - 01:41:39.069

she was a social worker so she was get paid to do a lot of the stuff that she did. Manuel described her as kind of a one woman social service agency. He said that she was really important in the political history of the town, that that

01:41:39.069 - 01:41:56.950

lawsuit that she filed was really. a game changer and she deserves credit for that and you know Barbara Garcia, who was down in Watsonville, is now the head of DPH in San Francisco. Head of which DPH, Department of Public Health. Oh yeah. Do you know how

01:41:56.950 - 01:42:18.729

to find Maria Coleja? Maybe Oscar does. She seems like it would be a great person to talk to. Yeah. I'm sure we thought I should talk to her too. Um, I mean this the hunger strike was her idea. I know that. And that that seems to

01:42:18.729 - 01:42:36.419

me like. No, but um You know, when I talk about Cruz to Kuca. You know, she just bares her teeth in rage, you know, they threw herua said that she threw her bodily out of that meeting at the end, you know, where Joe stood up and

01:42:36.419 - 01:42:49.600

exposed the whole thing about the health benefits. I mean, Joe was a member of the union. He had a right to be there and say what he had to say, but who is this crazy woman telling us what to do? It was like, you know, the

01:42:49.600 - 01:43:14.890

PL people down there, um. If she'd stuck to the community stuff, she probably would have been OK. You know But it's uh Here's a sort of educated woman sort of rediscovering her her roots just the way Frank described her. Um She's got full of herself. Um,

01:43:16.419 - 01:43:37.180

That was my impression of her. I never knew her. I never met her, nothing. Mhm. Anything you wanna add to that? Um, You know Manuel described Watsonville as kind of a magnet for lefties, and it had been for years, you know, going way, way back. Uh

01:43:38.709 - 01:43:51.279

That for some reason, maybe just because of the whole history, you know, going back to the time of Steinbeck, the CP had had a big presence there and always tried to organize there there was a certain kind of glamour plus you had these people going down

01:43:51.279 - 01:44:10.250

from Santa Cruz. You know, whenever they people in Santa Cruz wanted to get in touch with the working class, they'd go to Watsonville. Remember John Gimenez worked with me at the post office. Um, he He was a student at UC Santa Cruz and he got really

01:44:10.250 - 01:44:27.259

excited during the Watsonville strike because he knew the town, you know, I think he'd gone down there as a student and that kind of thing. He also developed a colossal crush on Cherie after watching her in a meeting, you know, watching her chew out some Trotskyists.

01:44:29.009 - 01:44:48.470

Um, Anyway, uh, I'm game for like sitting down with several people just to get some of these facts straight rather than my kind of interviewing this person and that person because I know that people do refresh each other's memories when they meet face to face. Yeah,

01:44:48.589 - 01:45:11.979

I don't know. I think to me what would be what I would do if I was you what I think would be helpful is I really think a linear. Um Timeline A filled in timeline would really be helpful and. Um, And then focusing on which parts

01:45:11.979 - 01:45:27.490

of that timeline you want more detail about. I can write that up. I think that would really help because what I would like to do even is and then do that from an internal point of view and I need help, but I'd like to figure out

01:45:27.490 - 01:45:43.509

who went, who went to Watsonville when and how long were they there and start to think about who can help tell the story because like I think there's people like um I don't think you talked to Soledad. I sent her an email actually because she's on

01:45:43.509 - 01:45:59.479

Richard's shoe's list, but she didn't answer it, OK. Um, was she down there early on? I thought, or was she one of the people who came to the tail end like along with Bill Siegel and. Well, that, so that's what I'd like to know. You described

01:45:59.479 - 01:46:17.270

that as tail end. I don't know if that was so tail end. I don't know. I have no idea. I don't think so. I know that Steve and went there fairly early. Steve went way before, so that's not the same time when Steve was first. Steve

01:46:17.270 - 01:46:35.720

went right after Manuel. Steve was there, I think before Oscar. You know, it's funny, he seemed to feel like he didn't go down until after solidarity Day. Oscar didn't arrive in town until the day before solidarity Day. He went down there with Rayna, so it was

01:46:35.720 - 01:46:55.390

right around that same time, OK. But Ray had never moved there, so no, no, but to hear uh Alicia tell it, so it was Manuel and Steve and Oscar at some point then and I, I need to understand who's the next wave Cherie. Sheree and Paul

01:46:56.600 - 01:47:13.399

Yeah, they were married at that point. OK, so and I know Cherie was just really deeply, deeply involved in stuff. And then when did Moawa go? When did Bill and Andrea go? Bill and Andrea went pretty late. I don't think so. I think they went pretty

01:47:13.399 - 01:47:31.509

early. Really? Um, because Bill was working on his thesis at Berkeley, and I know I'd see him around the unity office a lot. He and I worked together on a lot of stuff for a while. Um Yeah, so I, I need, I need a time thing

01:47:31.509 - 01:47:48.270

because it's all running to get because I, I was doing it before, during and after on something to do with hard to keep track. I'm not, I'm not, uh, I, I, I need that. What is, what's surprising is that people are vague about when they went

01:47:48.270 - 01:48:03.359

down when I talked to them. Steve was vague about it. Cherie was vague about it. You'd think something like that, you would remember. Well, if we fixed it, we could figure it out. Yeah, well, what I'll do. I'll go home and I'll write as detailed a

01:48:03.359 - 01:48:19.750

timeline as I can. I actually did write up an outline book chapter by chapter for the, you know, to sell the manuscript, but this would be even more specific. And I'll email it to you tonight, and you can just, if you can, if you know how

01:48:19.750 - 01:48:35.819

to find people, if you want us to be in on the conversation. Forward to them and let's set something up. Yeah, I think I'd like to help figure out when everybody went and then whoever is interested or willing to help, um, fill in the gaps of

01:48:35.819 - 01:48:52.839

the story, um, but you can keep guiding us in terms of what are the critical things you want feedback on because you don't need more people reminiscing. And so I think there's some issues that you are, you have an overarching concern, you know, how much did

01:48:52.839 - 01:49:12.669

we tell. You know, did we just get ourselves onto a, a good bus and rode the bus to the end? That's, that's one analysis. You know, I'm not sure that I believe that, but it, it's something that it's always a danger in these situations. Uh, and

01:49:13.100 - 01:49:30.000

you know it's also, no, I'm saying we have to, we have to document in the ways it did or did not happen and I, the other thing is that I think. Oscar's whole thing is the reason people trusted me where they didn't trust Joe Fahey, they

01:49:30.000 - 01:49:50.990

didn't trust Frank Barday, they didn't trust Cruz. I didn't tell people what to do. I, I said I'm here to help out, OK? Well, I'm here to help out and More than anyone else could do, he had an apparatus behind him. He had resources which delivered.

01:49:51.000 - 01:50:09.529

So when we were gonna, when he said he's gonna do something, then all of a sudden we have practical people. Cherie shows up. I show up representing this unknown group of people there. Students show up. Gloria refers to you as Oscar and his friends. We, we

01:50:09.529 - 01:50:26.089

go to, you know, people would go to Boston, uh, people go into different cities, get money, so there's resources, not tons, but some. So that's what he represented, you know, I, I did toward the, you know, in the latter part of chapter 5, I tried to

01:50:26.089 - 01:50:44.490

describe number one the kind of stuff the strikers committee did. That sort of made them a kind of an ongoing visible presence in the ranks of the strikers as a whole and. Number 2, like how Oscar defined his role in that whole process. That number one

01:50:46.189 - 01:51:01.459

Uh, he didn't come in there like a major domo telling people what to do. Uh, he says, basically. My job is to help you guys take leadership of this thing. Show you how to do it, give you the tools you need to do it, and then

01:51:01.459 - 01:51:19.620

make sure you have the resources at your disposal you're gonna need in order to do that. But I think to be fair, we have to think of a way to explain. And, and if it was being written by somebody from TDU they could explain what Ken

01:51:19.620 - 01:51:42.979

Pa's background was or whatever, whatever, but somewhere we need to get a sense that all of these national movements churning. Discovering Marxism andism and then taking on defense of these workers is not an abstraction. There's something. Continuous about it and it did add to this that's

01:51:42.979 - 01:51:59.609

actually something I think I need to devote more attention to because The one thing I did. In what I've written so far that tries to establish the relationship between the way we handle things in Watsonville and the larger priority of the organization is that thing that

01:51:59.609 - 01:52:19.490

Lisa told me about, you know, why this was so important to Ross but that's just it's the um the community organization doesn't make the point in the same way. And I mean, you know, you know, that's, I don't know how to do it, but and you'll

01:52:19.490 - 01:52:30.520

have to decide if that's something you want to do, but that was a gap I felt in what I read. And you know, I actually I think you're you're on to something because you know, in the second chapter where I sort of try to discuss how

01:52:30.520 - 01:52:50.229

the whole opposition movement and the Teamsters developed. And so you had the IS line and you had our line. The IS line was, you know, focus on the most the strategic industries and fight for more militant unionism and more democratic unionism. Our line is like fight

01:52:50.229 - 01:53:11.330

for representation by the people who've been excluded because of, you know, national oppression. the lower wage people were not considered strategic, you know, that. Um, because you know the whole thing about IS. And makes them initially attractive to people. But which I think is really a

01:53:11.330 - 01:53:32.160

huge shortcoming is. It's almost like they were like trying to relive the CIO drives, you know. But with better leadership without making the opportunist errors that the CP made presumably from their point of view. because they aren't beholden to the Soviet Union. You look at a

01:53:32.160 - 01:53:56.729

guy like Ken Pack or Ken Mooney, and then they have this whole kind of crackpot theory about Union bureaucrats constituting a separate social class. Which, you know, Even Frank Barday thinks it's ridiculous, you know, um. And I think people educated white lefties who look at the

01:53:56.729 - 01:54:14.500

labor movement. and don't want to become part of it or don't take union jobs or whatever, they find that analysis very congenial. And it becomes even more congenial when You can sort of create this sort of fetish about the work process. You know, which is a

01:54:14.500 - 01:54:30.759

hell of a lot of it gets spilled in academic journals about that stuff and you know, people are readyP Thompson, that kind of thing and. You know, the culture of work, you know, and that sort of stuff, and it's. It's, it, it depoliticizes things. It really

01:54:30.759 - 01:54:50.450

does in a very profound way, and I think one of the things that we did do is provide an alternative to that. So I think what what I'm looking for is a way. As a conscious force, we were trying to bridge the. Um, you know, kind

01:54:50.450 - 01:55:09.799

of the upheavals of the 60s and 70s spilling into this, but that's the, that's the process that I think we were trying to. Uh, be part of and we literally did represent it. It wasn't just like we sat in our living room and thought about it.

01:55:10.209 - 01:55:27.370

We were actually those people who were involved in some of those things and who were, um, sort of the next wave of that, um. And then how does that, you know, so what I think would be helpful and I should try to think of it more

01:55:27.580 - 01:55:52.839

is think of 3 or 4 different instances where this decision represents that and this other decision would represent something else, something specific that shows the how if you're coming at it um from those movements as opposed uh. From a kind of an abstract labor formulation that

01:55:52.839 - 01:56:11.100

you're gonna come up with a different approach. There's something else too, which I think is that um. The way I've been writing about the league's role is that we went in there with a certain Which made it very clear. What needed to be done at every

01:56:11.100 - 01:56:27.410

step. And that's the way. The other forces in town perceived us. Uh, and yet it wasn't that it was never that cut and dry. There was a lot of struggle. There was a lot of back and forth. There's a lot of trying to understand what you've

01:56:27.410 - 01:56:41.600

been trying to convey even while, even the what was, what was the clearest is why we were there, right? That was the clearest. I think that we were there for a different set of reasons than everybody else was. I don't think it was the same. That

01:56:41.930 - 01:56:44.640

that's why I think it's different. I have to tell you this.