00:00:00.970 - 00:00:19.510

Let's dispense with the first question. I think I know how to handle that. OK. In any case it's not an informational thing, it's more of a sort of a speculative. But I wanted to ask about that legal defense thing. I mean, you had what, 300 people

00:00:19.510 - 00:00:39.759

arrested in, you know, the opening for hot strike. Um What what became of them? I mean, who, who, who handled legal defense? How involved was it in Northern California? I know what Ronco and a few other people I, you know, Mary Modine from Eggleston's office. They

00:00:39.759 - 00:00:59.270

were all working on it. How involved did they get and who else was involved? Um, I think, I, I don't remember really, to be honest, but I think that um we were. We were of the mind that it was gonna go away, that I was not

00:00:59.270 - 00:01:18.540

gonna um. It was not going to leave people, um, you know, in jeopardy, and we did have these lawyers like Bronco, you know, kind of like handling it. Looking back now in terms of how I deal with legal stuff when we have a demonstration now and

00:01:18.540 - 00:01:35.660

how we did it then, I, I, I would have paid more attention to it, but I don't remember all the detail of what we did except that I know we were raising money and we were, you know, checking in with the lawyers and stuff. I get

00:01:35.660 - 00:01:49.660

the sense that most of the legal work that was done was done by local people, you know, like Sherry Lasson on the scene. Yeah, I think so. And then Dan Siegel came down for that big trial you know in the spring of '86, the Watsonville 19.

00:01:56.620 - 00:02:10.720

I guess I could ask him about it. He's running for mayor. Is he gonna win? I doubt it. Eric is just ridiculous, you know, he's, he's pretty savvy about Oakland politics. Does he think Jean Kwon's gonna win again? If she does, it'll be by default. I

00:02:10.720 - 00:02:28.039

think that the smart money is supposed to be on Rebecca Kaplan. Um, I don't know. I don't know, I'm new to town, um, but you know, the one thing I'll say about the party was that I found Ann Wiles, the former Ann Wiles, much more approachable

00:02:28.039 - 00:02:55.740

and easy to talk to, yeah. we were reminiscing about the plant closures. We were having a fine time. Um, the last time I really worked with those guys was on the uh. One of those uh African. What the hell with that I was horrible on Angola

00:02:55.740 - 00:03:21.339

was that was that was that so I I I don't have a lot of new information to give you on that. I'm sorry. One of the beef is that the Duane, I mean, everybody says it was brilliant the way he came up with the recertification, but

00:03:21.339 - 00:03:35.899

other than that, he just kind of picked around the edges of the injunction. He never really challenged it. The way he described the strike because it was a very quiet strike. news to everybody else who was involved with it, you know, meaning that his office, you

00:03:35.899 - 00:03:51.440

know, he just sort of thwarted some of the more outrageous lawsuits that Mendelsohn Tish she tried to put, you know, but he did not really. Go after the injunction and the burden on the I think we ate that injunction and tried to deal with it. To

00:03:51.440 - 00:04:18.869

me, the time when we put the most energy into thinking legally was when we got into the secondary boycott and Wells Fargo and that's that's my remembrance of all the. There was a lot of gnashing of teeth about how. Which way to

00:04:18.869 - 00:04:34.709

go, but on this other stuff, the injunction, I don't think that we felt that it was our, uh, position or we just didn't make room for it to really put a lot. I think Cherie probably has some information and opinions about that because she had to

00:04:34.709 - 00:04:53.989

deal with it every day. Yeah, I'll ask her um. The, you know, I think. Here again, I hate to bring up the opposing brand, but Silver says his big beef with the Teamsters and the evidence that they didn't care about the workers that they never really

00:04:53.989 - 00:05:03.929

challenged the injunction, they never really came to the defense of people who got. Busted every time you know Larry Ver stepped out of the plant and said bust that one. He he looked at me cross eyed or something like that and you know nobody really stopped

00:05:03.929 - 00:05:21.679

them from doing that shit of all the things to do that uh that's one of the things that probably didn't get done and that's uh, you know, that's easy pickings because most locals are not gonna take that on full time. So we could have played a

00:05:21.679 - 00:05:38.850

more invigorated role around that, but I don't, my remembrance is that we didn't. Generally, I mean when you've had enough experience in labor know this if there's a strike with a really restrictive injunction. The union's first priority is to keep the strike going rather than to

00:05:38.850 - 00:05:53.809

challenge the but that was an appropriate job I think for outside supporters to do, who were rooted in the community. I mean there was Sherry Lesson filed a lawsuit on behalf of the Watsonville, they tried to pick a way at it and then I think the

00:05:53.809 - 00:06:10.739

whole thing with the Watsonville 19 was these were people who did not want a plea bargain, they wanted to challenge the whole basis of the injunction. And you know Siegel got them all off. That's the big deal for them. I mean, I'd be inclined to give

00:06:10.739 - 00:06:35.500

them credit for that. uh, there was nothing wrong with it. Yeah, I just think that those are the kinds of things that And again, and you know, I, I'm, I might be off here, but my remembrance of the understanding was that those uh grabbed it or

00:06:35.500 - 00:07:26.779

it was with some of the workers that were kind of more like like we didn't spend as much energy and that was probably a less than strategic view but um. There's a little bit of a dismiss if it wasn't a mainstream was a grass.

00:07:27.220 - 00:07:43.839

And very frequently it would be a case of Larry V or stepping out of the plant and saying to the cop, I want you to arrest this person. In fact, when got busted near the end of the strike, it was because Larry Vter made a citizen's

00:07:43.839 - 00:07:59.179

arrest that practically touched off a riot. I mean, I think if you want to argue the police were at the company's beck and call. Oh absolutely, yeah, I mean the fact that so many of those arrests were requested specifically by Tri or Water or or Smiley.

00:08:00.380 - 00:08:19.480

Uh, and, um. The other thing is there was one instance where some scab walking into the plant took a kicked her in the stomach, you know, and she went and complained to a cop and the cop said, Can you identify her? Well, she went in there,

00:08:20.040 - 00:08:35.520

can you go get her out? The company wouldn't let the cop in, and he wouldn't go in without authorization from headquarters. Of course by that time, whoever it was, it kind of made herself scarce or scarce, so I mean it was. And it was a daily

00:08:36.369 - 00:08:52.140

hassle, I mean, uh. Seems like there were a lot of guys. Running around with guns, you know, firing them off, you know, in the middle of the night and stuff like that. Um, that would be something if you have a chance, I would ask Gloria her

00:08:52.140 - 00:09:05.080

opinion about that more. Are you going to see her again or you're done? Well, she's got to call me back. I think she probably feels like she's given me enough of her time I haven't gotten her to call me back. She made complaint to Oscar. I

00:09:05.080 - 00:09:23.020

want the truth to get out, you don't you? Well, no, she's been very helpful, so I'm not complaining, you know. Yeah, but I don't want to get too reliant on her because she's one person. Yeah, yeah, but, but we need some more people who are on

00:09:23.020 - 00:09:39.190

the line every day perspective on this. I mean how much of a burden it was, I, I actually don't know because I, I, so I have partial memory at best. So I also have a, a sense that, uh. Part of the reason that it was the

00:09:39.190 - 00:10:02.739

guys that there was a bunch of guys that used to get drunk and act a fool, and I remember Chilo talking about some of those folks, and he was not as sympathetic to their being busted because they were they weren't behaving like you don't know. You

00:10:02.739 - 00:10:33.690

don't win a struggle like this, you know, getting a load on and grabbing a shotgun ring them up on a cross and emblematic of the anger management issues. I mean really I mean. You know, how the hell do you defend a guy who

00:10:33.690 - 00:10:53.510

slugs a reporter for a newspaper, which is, yeah, but at least somewhat sympathetic to what, you know, the coverage in the register was not that bad, you know, I, I've seen much, much worse, and apparently the widow of the editor. She gave 1000 bucks to the

00:10:53.510 - 00:11:16.969

support. You know They ran an editorial, I think about. Uh I guess it was mid October. they said you know to Shaw and you know you guys have begged all these favors in the city because you were creating all these jobs, but you're not creating jobs

00:11:16.969 - 00:11:39.679

now and we're spending a fortune on police protection for you guys, you know, maybe it's time for you to start accepting some responsibility to the community editorial, it was one of those houses but that was the moment. So this guy Roy Engels on the city council.

00:11:40.770 - 00:11:58.890

You don't remember him. No, he was an ex-cop. He was a former deputy police chief. And he was really concerned about strikers being homeless. He tried to get him into that labor camp, you know, where where the farm workers were, and you know, he said at

00:11:58.890 - 00:12:09.289

one of the council meetings, Look, whether the counselor goes along with you guys if it goes along with me or not, with or without their help, I'm going to be doing what I can to get you guys off the street, you know, I don't think it's

00:12:09.289 - 00:12:31.580

right in this day and age to have people living on the street because they're on strike, you know. you know, as a demonstration of how embedded in the the whole thing. It really wasn't like it was really like I mean I think that's a great example.

00:12:32.280 - 00:13:02.109

And you know it's the city council was generally less than the horrible time having that kind of thing but yeah I mean I don't think for all of them. So let's talk a little bit about the bargaining strategy. I know that. took a very

00:13:02.109 - 00:13:21.630

hostile. Yeah I destroyed the tri. You got that. I sent you the, uh, you know, I finally tracked down the unity article on it. And I remembered now, you know, how he happened to write it, um. I think I wrote the opening paragraphs and you put

00:13:21.630 - 00:13:43.299

in the analysis at the end. Uh-huh. But, um, and we just did it, you know, on the fly because the demonstration is still going on. Actually I wound up typing up a piece of copy for you, you know, just on a Microsoft Word document, so that,

00:13:43.380 - 00:13:59.119

that shouldn't be the only one you have. Anyway, um, uh. I know that we wrote that on the fly before the the real ruckage downtown had started. People were still at the plant when we put the paper to bed. Um, but generally we took a really

00:13:59.549 - 00:14:17.409

dim view of the saddle hunt. And You know, I know that you were saying we just didn't have the resources to stop it at or any of the other places. Um, I know that. You know, the CPP. Ah, did put a lot of energy into trying

00:14:17.409 - 00:14:56.820

to get a vote out of and they actually succeeded. I know that the Delmar, they actually voted that down too, but not enough. I think it was like a 4 or 5 margin. steamrolled his granting concessions wouldn't have this problem. He destroyed the pattern agreement and

00:14:56.820 - 00:15:13.429

my job is to restore it. To find a wage that's appropriate for all of the employers online for it and then just isolate console and make sure they get all the business that he's not getting as a result of the strike. That was his approach and

00:15:13.429 - 00:15:37.690

it's kind of a standard union bargaining ploy, but it just kind of ramming this whole thing where 1000 decline by 35%. And you know Alex was perfectly he made no excuses for it because it was nothing to be proud of. Even Leon Ellis said that you'd

00:15:37.690 - 00:15:53.299

have to have your head examined. I think this is a good deal we're getting, but you know that's where it's at. I think they saw something that we didn't see at the time was in trouble. Well, I mean, I think we didn't have. I mean when

00:15:53.299 - 00:16:11.340

I read this, this was our view, good or bad, which was sort of a larger political view and we were, I think, a little bit panicky that this could mean that the thing was over and we, and so we were lashing out in that way. If

00:16:11.340 - 00:16:28.500

we it it seems emblematic to me looking back that we weren't able to have a kind of a More comprehensive strategic idea, so we just took it like even though we didn't have a way for them to have turned it down, we just hoped that spontaneously

00:16:28.500 - 00:16:46.890

I guess they would have and they didn't. So then, you know what I mean, so then we blame it on uh the union and so I don't think I don't think our sis was in the moment and I don't think it was very strategic um. On

00:16:46.890 - 00:17:02.849

the other hand, if we said we would have sacrificed a lot of credibility. I mean Leon Ellis doesn't even think it was good, there's no way that we're defending it. And you know, to be honest, I think it's also emblematic of we weren't that that wasn't

00:17:02.849 - 00:17:24.550

the role for good or bad. That wasn't the role that we had staked out in this. We were not sitting back and kind of, you know, piecing together an entire strategy. We were mostly. Uniting with the movement, mostly seeing it in a larger context and getting

00:17:24.550 - 00:17:45.599

all kinds of support based on the political points and then kind of moving our way through, I think, a more sophisticated ability to, you know, kind of work with the union, figure out the boycott, you know. So we were kind of halfway if this was a

00:17:45.599 - 00:18:07.479

road, we were, you know, down the road a little bit. We weren't even probably even in the middle, but we were going towards a more sophisticated view but we weren't there I reading this is like, oh yeah, I remember I wrote this part. I know it's

00:18:07.479 - 00:18:12.500

kind of like, you know, I mean we never did really get a handle on that how do you concessions bargaining. I didn't, you know, and they're still banging the drums. When I was at Amherst, the guy who's head of um notes is the husband of a

00:18:12.500 - 00:18:47.800

woman who was teaching there, um, and she's now at CUNY. In New York, um, I, I forget her name right now, but she's, she writes a lot about, uh, global, you know, whatever, um, anyway, and so we have these, you

00:18:47.800 - 00:19:02.050

know, little get-togethers at the bar afterwards or something, and so I'm, I'm talking to the guy and he says, oh, you're at the San Francisco Labor Council, my God, how can you stand it, you know, or something. And I said, well, you know, um, he, and

00:19:02.050 - 00:19:14.589

he's from Labor Notes and he's, you know, we're having this thing. And I was kind of like, wow, I felt like I was transfixed when I used to go to those labor notes conferences, you know what I mean, like in the, in the early 80s or

00:19:14.589 - 00:19:21.760

70s, you know, uh, he pretty much had the same, you know, he wanted to talk about, uh, you know. and do you know what I mean like you know what I mean they're making a contribution, but he was just somehow that was going to transform everything,

00:19:21.800 - 00:20:13.369

you know what I mean and I think Trotsky's Parker. Mike Mike Parker, you remember his brother Bill making that speech at that conference is that the guy who ran for mayor of Richmond? Yeah.

00:20:14.280 - 00:21:02.109

Did he wins he withdrew, I think, for the sake of unity. He's about it. Frank turned to when he wanted to get the greatest respect for Mike Parker Mike worked in an auto plant for years, which is something

00:21:02.109 - 00:21:16.430

that Frank would never be able to do as he freely admits you know one of the things he's so critical about is he could have played a much better or at least more influential role in the strike if he had. membership in 12, but he didn't

00:21:16.430 - 00:21:59.349

do it because he didn't want to do factory work once he lost his job as a lumper Joe could have gotten a job at UPS. He didn't take it. He was happier teaching ESL. Do the breed. I was great. I'm grateful that I I

00:21:59.349 - 00:22:29.560

feel like it's about the folks that Everybody's a nonprofits to say to somebody what do you want to get into and they go, I was kind of thinking, and I'm like I'm thinking do something before you do. Thank you. Yeah, OK. How about I mean I

00:22:29.560 - 00:22:45.010

talked to Steve, you know, when I interviewed him. I showed him that Sergio telling Frank and Cruz that they were no longer in the union hall and they called the cops that they showed their face around here again. You know, Sergio has a certain kind of

00:22:45.010 - 00:22:59.170

a grudging respect for Frank. He cannot stand Cruz, you know. He says, you know, there's some good people. He told the media that there's some good people on the support committee. I don't want to knock them because they, they've gotten turkeys for our people and stuff

00:22:59.170 - 00:23:14.790

like that. They do good work, but Cruz is a, you know, is a train wreck. I mean, she's, she's divisive. You know, you know, when I when I showed Steve that letter, he said we we tried to warn Frankie when he got thrown out of the

00:23:14.790 - 00:23:35.189

hall didn't want to listen to and I'm assuming that what got him thrown out was that they were so out there and actually I think they felt that they dropped the ball at that Joe was the responsibility to speak up and he wasn't quite enough. You

00:23:35.189 - 00:23:49.949

know, so they weren't going to make that mistake again and Joe was out there really lobbying hard against the settlement too, but you know, uh, Sergio couldn't do anything about him. He was a paid officer in the in the local, but he could keep Frank and

00:23:49.949 - 00:24:01.760

Cruz out. And when I talked to Jim Brough, uh, you know, I said, Well, what about the strategy of the general strike? How do you guys feel about it? He says, he says, unless you have a cadre in every plant, it's ridiculous. It's not going to

00:24:01.760 - 00:24:45.890

happen. Oh no. See this is why I was mentioning when we were walking down here. It's like the kind of contradiction of the. The loose and you know there was plenty of room for improvement, but we were among the tighter in

00:24:45.890 - 00:25:01.380

terms of we had a we had a way that things went up and down you know blah blah blah. I still have this sense that people For personal reasons or whatever, found themselves moving into that area and then they, you know, then they kind of Anyone

00:25:01.380 - 00:25:17.839

who seemed to kind of be anti-establishment. They kind of bonded with. So then they collected this group of people like you said who were kind of some close, some not so close, just all kind of a mishmash of, you know, let's fight the the power here.

00:25:19.489 - 00:25:24.500

Which left them, I think, in a tough position. I'm not sure I understood now I'm talking about the CP as just sort of part of the Watsonville and I'm, and it included, you know, the ranks and trots and you know, so anarchist trots, CP you know,

00:25:24.520 - 00:26:04.489

they were all kind of in a and I think we saw ourselves separate from them. Yeah. Well, you know, I mean, Manuel, why do we even waste time worrying about those people? They're irrelevant, you know, it's a bunch of them, you know,

00:26:04.530 - 00:26:25.099

I mean there were, there were people on the committee who were you know like Maria and people like that. And Maria worked with us. Yeah, she did. Well, I mean, I don't think they drew the lines. Not everybody drew the line that sharply, you know. Um

00:26:27.630 - 00:26:53.160

I one thing I mean, you know, it's like. Even among the workers, uh. I mentioned Oscar, you know, that little Teamsters United 9-12 that organized those demonstrations in February after the Shaw settlement. That was actually a pretty, you know, Gloria and were in all the Esperanza

00:26:53.160 - 00:27:10.109

Torres and stuff. So they, they clearly, you know, Oscar said, you know, I asked Gloria, why are you messing around with these people. They're fighting, you know, nobody seemed to have any idea what to do, and you know when she got up and testified at Joe's

00:27:10.109 - 00:27:25.079

hearing before the joints, you know, she says, Joe, he wasn't the leader of this thing. In fact, we were mad at him because he wasn't doing more. We expected to take more responsibility. He didn't do it. He was down at the union hall. Joe's resented the

00:27:25.079 - 00:28:07.780

ideas that they couldn't think for themselves. I mean, how do you feel about A support committee trying to influence the vote. On a contract. Um, I don't have a. I don't have any good models of where I think that that's a good plan. Um, I, and

00:28:07.780 - 00:28:28.719

again, I think that we took. refuge is the only way I can describe it in feeling that we were more tucked close to a significant group of leaders, you know, not one, but a group, and I think in that way we felt like we could raise

00:28:28.719 - 00:28:42.949

ideas to them, you know what I mean, get them to see certain things that maybe they hadn't as opposed to like that we had. That somehow that we were leading it or that we were in charge of it or you know I mean I think we

00:28:42.949 - 00:29:11.239

were really not comfortable with that, but to some extent we did it. I mean we would. You know, even just the whole idea of getting a striker's committee together. it wouldn't have to do this. I mean we made a bunch of suggestions which they continue to

00:29:11.239 - 00:29:28.890

do. There was a big. I'm trying to remember the circumstance. There was that there was a rally, and they made, they were going to make a statement about and seeing this is my, my memory's not good enough, the the, the, the strikers committee was going to

00:29:28.890 - 00:29:49.729

make a statement about the teamsters and it was either. Further. I don't even remember either went further than we were comfortable or they took our advice and I think maybe it went further than we wanted them to do. I think like Chuck and those guys were

00:29:49.729 - 00:30:05.810

coming to town and I think they blasted them and I think we were that wouldn't be what we would have said. And you, you probably remember the details because you've gotten all this research, but, but we, we didn't stop it, of course we couldn't have, but.

00:30:06.619 - 00:30:29.189

We learned a lesson, I think. Isn't there something don't we have an incident about that somewhere where they they took a stand further to the left of us and we, we kind of learned our lesson that they, because they were leaders, they had more. There was

00:30:29.189 - 00:30:47.469

more flexibility there even even the way that the teams looked at them would have been different than if we had position because they were, and I think it sort of cemented in our brains that if you're actually leading the workers you have the ability to take

00:30:47.469 - 00:31:02.430

different stands in a way that outside groups don't have that ability. I think that's what Jim Brock. It's like if you're going to buck the union you have to be a member of the union. Uh-huh. You know, and I think he's absolutely right. I mean, I,

00:31:02.680 - 00:31:19.030

uh, one of the things I've gotten my shoulder back at your office is this leaflet that Crews put out. During that last week, you know, the headline, I haven't had it translated yet, but the headline is lies and tricks. That's the deal in San Francisco with

00:31:19.030 - 00:31:32.150

David Gill, you know, you won the strike, not the, not the, not the company, not not more console, not the city, you know, Chuck Matt. You won the strike and now they're trying to take it away from you and the strikers is trying to take it

00:31:32.150 - 00:31:51.040

away from you. I mean it's it's a ghastly leaflet and um you know I remember when I interviewed, she told me she threw out of the hall bodily, I can see her doing. And I just thought, well, that's kua being kua, but then, uh. I saw

00:31:51.040 - 00:33:27.170

that shit on agenda. I would have told him to fuck off. You know, It's like Yeah. Yeah. I don't think she was

00:33:27.170 - 00:33:49.579

the one who really deserves the singing. How aware were the significance of that health benefits thing until he spoke up about it and started agitating around it and I want to get back to that a little later in the interview, but um. Yeah The thing is

00:33:49.579 - 00:34:15.580

he was a union officer, so he was in a position to do that. I think that the people have voted down, you know, even if, you know, Jim Brough hadn't been out there, but it certainly helped them to know that they were encouragement from outsiders to

00:34:15.580 - 00:34:37.969

do it. You know it wasn't terribly difficult to solve people on the idea that this is a bad agreement that you know your wages are being cut and you're supposed to like it. Yeah, I mean I think the idea of agreements unfortunately it was never a

00:34:37.969 - 00:35:29.159

question of convincing was bad. It was like what's out of work for more than a couple of weeks. Yeah. The sense I'm getting is that your answer to question three there is that ah It wasn't a part of

00:35:29.159 - 00:35:50.840

what they want for whatever reason didn't take on the challenge. Um, building a whole committee of people, you know what I mean, at the other plants, we, I think we felt like we had what we could handle, and, um, so in a more developed sense we

00:35:50.840 - 00:36:05.679

probably would have, you know, we would have understood that the whole thing is connected and we understood it intellectually, but on an activist level we didn't go and organize the other plants and we just hoped I think that things would work out. How did we feel

00:36:05.679 - 00:36:19.750

when the workers voted it down? Was there any discussion or any reaction to that? I don't remember. You don't remember. OK, let's get around I mean I think unfortunately, I think we were in the camp of when people voted stuff down it was like good when

00:36:19.750 - 00:36:36.340

people voted stuff down, I think we were generally like, well, that's good, you know, you know, that's supportive of us. It's not our job to tell people they're being too militant. Um, no, we didn't have that kind of a strategy I don't think, yeah, um, the

00:36:36.340 - 00:36:48.520

strike as far as I can tell, was not like shutting down all the businesses in Watsonville 1934 Francisco was like closing down all the. I would have probably been infatuated with it romantically and I would have come to you and you would have told me it's

00:36:48.520 - 00:38:13.679

bullshit. I don't know I don't know. I don't think I was a positions. Yeah but what a heavy lift. Yeah. There

00:38:13.679 - 00:38:28.800

were a bunch of suggestions, you know, about what we could do, and I, I got the feeling that a lot of it was kind of inspired by Sergio, I think after the big. was generally that the strikes going to fall apart, and he sent a letter

00:38:28.800 - 00:38:42.719

to Joint Council saying you guys have to help us out. We cannot win this alone. We need to have some kind of economic boycott to put more pressure on the bank and on console and also just to keep the strikers morale because you're asking a hell

00:38:42.719 - 00:38:57.320

of a lot of them. You know, I think he felt that way after that nothing's going on and we're gonna, we're going to lose the initiative. People get demoralized. They're gonna go join TDU or whatever, you know, but he was concerned, I think. that there was

00:38:57.320 - 00:39:50.330

a strike. it's appropriate to be in the room at the same time, I'm fine with that. I might not be OK, but it's OK, I'd love to. Uh, I, I remember us and you know you were involved

00:39:50.330 - 00:40:06.810

in this too. I remember doing research and talking to people and I think we cooked a fair amount of that idea up ourselves. I mean, I'm not saying we initiated it because you, you have the proof of what had happened, but I think we, we were

00:40:06.810 - 00:40:26.669

really, um. And and for me, the emotions are stronger sometimes, so I remember the emotion of feeling like we gotta come up with something to say this because this thing is going down the toilet. So, uh, when we came on to this idea of Um, the

00:40:26.669 - 00:40:45.875

boycott, it seemed like it was something that we felt had some maybe some legs, and I don't think we were sophisticated enough to understand corporate versus consumer. So we, I think we were trying to. I remember doing the research about the secondary boycotts and talking to

00:40:45.875 - 00:41:07.675

people and figuring that out and so I think all we were thinking is that we would get all of the mass support and we would turn it on, you know, an ally like this. So my sense is, I mean I don't think Altood it because he

00:41:07.675 - 00:41:39.379

wrote proposal. Sent it to Dwayne Beason and said, Will you please bless this or tell me if we can get away with this or whatever. I mean that is that law is so Difficult to fathom. You know the farmers had a whole fucking figuring out the

00:41:39.379 - 00:42:12.320

ins and out of that. I think. Said we will as a support, we'll set up a picket line and we'll leaflet like and she even mentioned the Safeway and the Lucky's in East Oakland, and the one up on on Piedmont Avenue and stuff. I

00:42:12.320 - 00:42:25.580

mean she named specific places where I know those of us who live in Oakland did our shopping, you know, and um. You know it would have made an impact. There was a lot of talk about how Alex did a lot of research on how you identify

00:42:25.580 - 00:43:07.129

by the barcode on every package of frozen food. I think the finally opted for. What he called a corporate strategy is because it was much easier and more bang for the buck to get out of the mount this mass boycott the farm workers. I don't know

00:43:07.129 - 00:43:30.750

how far it would have been kind of a tricky for them because you can't just divest just like that especially if you're talking about trust funds. It's pretty complicated moving to another, you know. The main thing is I think that they do its Fargo. And this

00:43:30.750 - 00:43:46.459

is an example where I think in terms of my analogy of going halfway down the road that I think we, we knew we had to work somewhat with them on this, but we weren't like all in and we weren't like having, you know, midnight coffee with

00:43:46.459 - 00:44:17.020

Chuck to go over this, but we were trying to cooperate on some level, but the reason I think we said the consumer is because we thought that's what we. I talk to for you to do the boycott.

00:44:17.030 - 00:44:28.439

I think we did. I think we talked to Alex, but I didn't do any of that I think so. Yeah, I mean, she was kind of a contact person and you know, and this is an example of having people from different social classes. Even though she

00:44:28.439 - 00:44:46.080

was just sort of out of sync young Chinese woman in the middle of this community, she's much more comfortable going up to somebody, you know, a big shot like Alex, actually even an Oscar would be. Even even then Oscar would be because at that time, especially

00:44:46.080 - 00:45:06.199

now since he's been mayor and stuff, everything has changed, but at that time he didn't, you know, she felt more confident engaging, you know, somebody like that, uh, and that was, uh, uh, yeah, yeah, she was, she had a more a recommendation to graduate school saying

00:45:06.199 - 00:45:30.860

this young lady can do anything she wants to. She's brilliant, you know, blah blah. I don't know, I don't know um. Well, that's a strikes. Yeah. That's what got me into the friendship and I hated it because the fact that you were a red, that you

00:45:30.860 - 00:46:11.090

know that was a good match for you. Anyway, anyway, um, so. I will talk to Cherie about it. Um, I think the big knock on the way Alex did it, if you wanted to put a knock

00:46:11.090 - 00:46:35.750

on it, is that like a mass and we wanted it to be a mass. Alex wrote a wrote a piece in the Labor reporter, you know, I think in November 8 where he hinted that, you know. The Team are in a position to put some real

00:46:35.750 - 00:46:49.280

pressure on the, you know, it looks like console's going to go down the tubes, but it's really would be Wells Fargo and the growers, you know, um. And this is the time for the community to really get engaged and start, you know, boycotting and using it,

00:46:50.020 - 00:47:09.000

and Alex sent him a letter. Which he said great article, thanks. We really appreciate it. I just want to clarify a couple of things. And that's where I came up with that corporate he said we pretty much decided to do a corporate campaign rather than a

00:47:09.000 - 00:47:25.969

consumer oriented one because it's easier and it's more effective. It's, you know, it, it requires less of a way of resources, but it has to be done pretty much undercover. I'm sure you can understand that or something like that, yeah. And that's, that's the, that's a

00:47:25.969 - 00:47:48.810

good example of the different strategies, um, not even saying one's better or another's better, um. There's no question given the resources Alex was controlling, he would pick that one given the resources we were controlling and the outcome we wanted the other one. in the real world,

00:47:49.489 - 00:48:48.120

but if we had our bigger it needed to take over the finish line. Yeah, but, you know, it's figuring out. Sophistication and persistence in actually instead of just saying, ah,

00:48:48.209 - 00:49:09.520

you know, get away or you know what I mean. And I appreciate that he had some expertise and he was putting it to use. Watsonville. They go through the jaws of hell to win this thing. Our job is to make sure that resources and he spent

00:49:09.520 - 00:49:54.659

a lot of time and Chuck both kind of trying to coax. It's funny. Alex was not into bad mouthing him. He just said, you know, when the Western Conference, you know, their big shots in the lowest paid. Shit, uh. This is really, I

00:49:54.659 - 00:50:09.679

mean we can come back and talk about this again, but I would assume that come September when the plant shut down for 11 days and you know had to basically mortgage everything he owned to keep the plant running, it was obvious at that point he wasn't

00:50:09.679 - 00:50:38.570

going to make it. what are we gonna do? I think so, but I think in the end I think as it got closer to the end I think we felt like we had to. Kind of back the horse that we came in on and we weren't,

00:50:38.879 - 00:50:56.879

we weren't in a position to kind of, uh, switch away, you know, so if they were willing to keep going then we were gonna keep going, you know what I mean, uh the strikers, yeah, yeah. Yeah. I mean they were actually Alex said this in the

00:50:56.879 - 00:51:19.399

strikers would rather see the shut down for the Oscar. And saying because in many of the meetings, Oscar would be like kind of the, he would be like having Gloria in the room. He would have, he was like channeling Gloria a lot and he would raise

00:51:19.399 - 00:51:31.500

stuff that she had said, you know what I mean? And then the rest of us had more contact with, I mean I had contact with Tuvelo and Cheri had contact with different people and we, we'd have a back and forth as I remember it kind of

00:51:31.500 - 00:51:51.370

each of us channeling yeah yeah yeah. So. Probably this is where I need to talk more to Sergio too to get a sense of what was. Going on, you know, how the union was sort of negotiations when, at what point, you know, at what point he

00:51:51.370 - 00:52:36.979

started talking to David Gill because you know initially the way that whole idea of the farmers got started. I just realized that was the only way. So, um, What about this motions that Chuck Mac made in early February of '87, he told, he suggested that I

00:52:36.979 - 00:52:49.949

think he sent out a Titan email saying, you know, I don't think we need a trusteeship just yet, but John Blake should be appointed by the international, keep a close eye on things and make sure. He sent Sergio a letter saying you need to stop having

00:52:49.949 - 00:53:05.989

the union hall opened at all times to anybody who wanders in there, the situation is in danger of getting out of control, blah blah blah. I asked Chuck, you know. About the trusteeship, I said, Were you serious about that? He says, I don't think I was.

00:53:06.070 - 00:53:20.754

I think I was trying to make sure that they knew that they couldn't just count on us to be there no matter what they did, they had to behave responsibly in terms of, I think they felt that was drifting towards. Being closer to the strikers than

00:53:20.754 - 00:53:38.250

he was to the local because he had never been treated very well by the teams anyway so his his inclination was to go a little bit more towards us and I think that that um. I think if that had happened, if they had locked down on

00:53:38.250 - 00:53:48.919

him more, I think we would have supported him even more, you know, so I think that that's what he told Chuck, you put the local interest, he should be going to have a hell of a lot of anger. You know they are not going to accept

00:53:48.919 - 00:54:46.479

it. So you think basically it was just a matter of Silly mask. As this thing is winding and if Ser was going to be in charge and they were gonna win, they

00:54:46.479 - 00:55:08.850

wanted to know which side but who is he going to be taking orders and they had to make sure that he was clear that it was. Kerry Kerry. I gathered in a letter to Joe saying no you can't do this,

00:55:29.870 - 00:56:15.570

but nothing was done about it until 11 months later. Um we did something with that, but nothing was done. What did we do? Ask that question because I think it seems to me that we took. We tried to responsibility

00:56:15.570 - 00:56:36.840

for fun. I remember having a discussion about it sit and occasion that I was ripping sound like it. Yeah and I think even with the food wasn't there something about that. I don't know. Yeah, I can't remember that there was something about I think it was

00:56:36.840 - 00:57:38.969

wasn't doing the food they went to our garage to see if the food was stored there or something. I don't remember. And that by and large it's the striker's committee plus one or two others. Um, well, Carlos. you know. was

00:57:38.969 - 00:57:58.219

on the negotiating committee and it's some guy I never heard of. want something or other, I don't remember his name, OK, um, and Glorianal. Uh I'm curious about. I mean from one point of view what they came up with was they just took the same agreement

00:57:58.219 - 00:58:14.379

that they pushed through at Crossetti and Delmar and Shaw and got to agree to it. So from that point of view what they were doing was perfectly reasonable and Ellis, I think when the debate was going on and that he said, you know, we can't make

00:58:14.379 - 00:58:31.439

any demands and that we're not making the other owner. And Sergio said. He made it clear that he was scared to death that that that that the situation with Gills take over the plant was so precarious that he knock the whole thing into a cock hat

00:58:31.439 - 00:58:49.590

and then Shaw put in, you know, he said, Well, I think they should reject it, you know, for Christ's sake if he doesn't have to pay health benefits to his part-timers, that's a $300,000 a year advantage that he has over me, you know, I think is

00:58:49.590 - 00:59:12.780

out of the depth anyway. My question is, number one, do you think that the negotiating committee was aware of the implications of that whole you know the part-timers have to requalify for health benefits. I don't think so. I would, my guess is that they Towards the

00:59:12.780 - 00:59:31.510

end, I think everybody was like, we're not sure how much longer we can keep this thing going and it was very precarious. So if somebody in power. And in this case would have been saying. So You know, it's like you went from the depths of like

00:59:31.510 - 00:59:47.379

it's the plant is gone now someone is coming back, a savior. I think they weren't experienced enough and we weren't experienced enough or in the middle of it enough to to grab a hold of it and say, you know, cause I don't remember reading that carefully

00:59:47.379 - 00:59:59.979

and if we had, we might have come up with the same thing that Joe did, but we didn't, I don't remember I remember actually a conversation you and I had, I think it was. You're down at the at the center, you know, one evening, and it

00:59:59.979 - 01:00:12.729

must have been in the middle of the week and you told me that Joe Joe is arguing against, you know, against accepting the agreement and I just about that fucking time. You know, um, and so he was right, so we, we might have had a, yeah,

01:00:12.739 - 01:00:32.250

but, but again for you, you have to always, you. Don't. Yeah, he was right, good for him, but it doesn't mean he doesn't deserve credit for the whole thing, you know what I mean? They were only there because of what everybody else had done. So, you

01:00:32.250 - 01:01:05.600

know, you're so interested in right the wrong of sectarianism. Be careful. Well, I know it's not that. I think it's just what's valuable about this experience is that you can sort of try to look at. You's actions and their motives he

01:01:05.600 - 01:01:25.939

was emblematic of how we were kind of. the strikers were relaying to us about their suffering and how it would be, and we weren't being objective enough to say that they didn't suffer this long to let this one go or we didn't know how much they

01:01:25.939 - 01:01:47.486

had in the tank. Which is why, which leads to, which is why the hunger strike here was like that's what they had in the tank. They were, they were like that's that's what I've heard. I don't remember. I thought it was whoever was the who was

01:01:47.486 - 01:02:15.959

the woman who was in the photo. but she was really Catholic. So anyway, so we had that kind of Catholic martyr. I don't think we had enough. I mean, the positive thing is that we were ready to support the workers for what they wanted to do.

01:02:16.590 - 01:02:44.409

The negative thing is that we didn't have any real strategy to unearth what Joe unearthed because he was right and they did have enough in the tank to get it done, good for them, but, um, you know, so you recall. down. Do they have a bathroom

01:02:44.409 - 01:03:57.360

in here, you do. I think, um, back in there. I'll be right back. Yes and I was sitting there thinking I know. Yeah OK I. I very Thanks guys. So You

01:04:14.189 - 01:06:00.939

No And happen great great. First on I. I Yeah Yeah But OK Yeah. Oh. Right And I got it. I'm also But And one. No You. Oh, OK, they, they in that clean out. very

01:06:00.939 - 01:06:44.959

good I Oh, there we go. But The clip of the Maltese Falcon. He's sitting in his office in his shirt sleeves with a bottle of gin in his elbow. Well, I watched that on video a while back. Still holds up, still

01:06:44.959 - 01:07:12.520

holds up. There was not one false move in that movie. Including Mary Astor, telling him, you know whether you love me or not. You actually, she just confessed to murdering his partner and you wind up still. You listen to her say that, you see what a

01:07:12.520 - 01:07:40.169

shit he is for turning your hair out. So we're we were in the middle of something when we stood up. I'm trying to remember what it was. Yeah, I think According to the newspaper accounts I read, there was a lot of really hot and heavy discussion

01:07:40.169 - 01:08:03.510

going on at the union hall and in the parking lot. You know, between Tuesday night. Uh And when the meeting took place. Yeah, the whole big bone of contention and the teamsters probably had the better part of the side of the argument is that with that

01:08:03.510 - 01:08:31.628

2/3 applied. Joe claimed it didn't. Sergio. And I think Alex came to the conclusions like whether it does or it doesn't. We can really, you know, it's like if they're gonna vote this thing down, there's no point in ramming it down their throats because the teams

01:08:31.628 - 01:08:51.569

came out, you know, the IBC came out with a statement right after the vote. This is unfortunate, but we're going to try to reopen negotiations to see if we can resolve this issue and they thought they're going to see it through to the end and if

01:08:51.569 - 01:09:08.429

they're that determined and he was a more experienced negotiator Sergio was he knew there was some. Well, there was, I mean, and they wound up resolving it in a way that did not cost any more money. You know, I think what it was is they have

01:09:08.429 - 01:09:30.589

to wait another 6 months to get their pension preferable to waiting another 3 years to see the doctor, you know. The number and then you get the number where you got to get it. And you know, I mean, it's like. I do want to bring that

01:09:30.589 - 01:09:54.250

out that it was like uh. Alex actually did what people in that situation are supposed to do. You know, I think the takeaway from what you're analysis is gonna wind up here. I say is that we're gonna, we're gonna raise that um. The teachers played a

01:09:54.250 - 01:10:11.189

more positive people gave them credit. Of course they have limitations of course, of course, but I think and people are going to be like, you know, people who want to read it carefully will get a lot from it. People who, you know, the John Silvers will

01:10:11.189 - 01:10:40.270

say, well, of course that's what they're gonna write, but those guys always suck up to those pieces anyway. Well, I don't take that seriously, bearings yeah I mean I. this whole business of pattern, yeah. This whole business of pattern bargaining is this really deeply ambiguous thing.

01:10:41.270 - 01:10:57.790

And especially in an era when you know unions are no longer holding the whip hands, you know, and it's, you know. It's all very well to talk about taking wages out of competition, but when the only way you can do that is by cutting wages then

01:10:57.790 - 01:11:28.180

for everybody, then you're not. I think has gotten lost in translation, you know. I how much power you have. They weren't unionized and I tell you some of this. There's hotels that have been unionized 3 or 4 years ago, but what Casey and was holding out

01:11:28.180 - 01:11:45.830

for was to get a global thing with all the highs, and he finally got it, it took a long time. Well, I mean, this is where unions kind of have to play God. And where they cannot Function democratically. There's no way you can do something like

01:11:45.830 - 01:12:03.470

that, devise a bargaining strategy. In a way that makes everybody happy. You know, you're like a general deploying his troops. Some guys are going to be in the line of fire and some guys are just gonna be doing backup. And if you're you're a sell out

01:12:03.470 - 01:12:25.589

or incompetent, yeah. Uh, No, I mean, this is why I But that's why the experience of a shot and Alex way beyond our experience, you have to at least listen to it. You have to get an assessment from them. I wake up in the morning and

01:12:25.589 - 01:12:48.770

I'm gonna fuck. Yeah, well, actually this is something I I. My discussions with Frank, I wound up quoting William Lee. Foster Adam. Who said in one of his little internal party memos, some of our comrades think that union bureaucrats have nothing to do with their time

01:12:48.770 - 01:13:17.370

to sit around plotting how to sell out strikes. That kind of thinking doesn't get us anywhere. It, it's childish, you know. What did Frank say? Uh, he didn't say anything. Um, I don't think he felt it applied to him. Yeah. Um Well, this is helpful, uh.

01:13:21.009 - 01:13:41.359

I will call Cherie. And uh I will see if she's willing to sit down with you and me together, you know, I think you're right. A lot of these questions I'm asking you. She's probably in a better position to answer. I'm not, but if you think

01:13:41.359 - 01:13:59.709

it helps. As far as I know, she has no beef with you Tom didn't defend her when she was, you know, complaining about Oscar. Well, she probably has a beef that as an organization we were not mature enough to understand. Everything that was going on, yeah,

01:14:00.609 - 01:14:17.040

that would be a bet so and that's fine. I mean, I take responsibility for whatever I did or didn't do so. But that's, there's a world of difference between not handling something like that right and being responsible for it. You know if Oscar was really hassling

01:14:17.040 - 01:14:40.120

her, you know, I understand. And it would have put us in a very difficult situation, you know. I don't know how you're supposed to resolve things like that, you know. OK I don't think I wasn't mature enough to understand who is complicit with who and who.

01:14:40.950 - 01:14:57.339

You know, like Well, I, I didn't press her on that. I talked to Paul a little bit actually about, you know, because their marriage broke up down there. And uh Yeah, no, you know what he said was, you know, I think when we were working in

01:14:57.339 - 01:15:10.529

Chinatown together, she really idealized me. She didn't see any of my faults. Then we got down to the situation where we're living in Watsonville. She's doing all the heavy lifting politically, and I'm just bringing home a paycheck and that's how I'm spending my time. I'm not

01:15:10.529 - 01:15:26.899

feeling really good about myself. She realized I wasn't a little 0 Jesus that she thought I was, you know, that that wasn't his phrase, but he, he put it much more elegantly but. He said that she did idealize him and when he was in a situation

01:15:26.899 - 01:15:46.470

where he was. Quote admirable, unquote. She didn't know, you know, it's hard for her to deal with it. Paul's a nice guy, you know, there's not a whole lot of rancor in him when he talks about this stuff. So with the post office. Is he still,

01:15:46.930 - 01:16:13.310

he is. As far as I know, he's still the vice president of the. APWU. Um Or maybe he quit. I think he probably had a spell of Fred Jacobs. You know, I I remember summing up my experience in the APW today is like saying that the

01:16:13.310 - 01:16:32.209

two leaders of my union. Tom Beardsley was a depressive personality and Fred Jacobs was a paranoid personality and between the two of them, you know, the whole union was a loony dune. I was trying to explain to somebody up in Portland what it was like, and

01:16:32.209 - 01:16:50.169

I said, you know, the thing about the Oakland Post Office is it was a hotbed of misplaced anchor. I mean, people were You'd go to the union meetings and people would be screaming at each other. Uh Nobody gave anybody else credit for good intentions or anything,

01:16:50.220 - 01:17:08.140

you know. Tom would complain about it. I sit in front of those meetings and I see the same old stupid faces out there. Nobody trusted him because he was white, you know. Of course he had a nervous breakdown. Yeah, he did. That was the end of

01:17:08.140 - 01:17:31.450

his union career, you know, but he wasn't having any fun. It's kind of sad. Yeah, he's a decent guy. I wouldn't call Fred a decent guy, but he's a smart guy, you know. If you've been white, he probably would have a high powered attorney somewhere. Well

01:17:31.450 - 01:17:42.049

I hope this was not a waste of your morning. No, it was never it was never a waste of my morning. Do you have a phone number for Cherie, by the way? Uh, I don't think I do, but we can look. I mean, I just tried

01:17:42.049 - 01:17:55.959

calling her on my cell and I apparently I copied it down wrong. I think if you've got it on you, I'll take a look and try again. Have to check in tomorrow night to see if I'm on jury duty. I'm trying to get as much done

01:17:55.959 - 01:18:14.390

before then. I had to spend a day about 2 weeks ago. Uh, I wasn't picked, so. You were. I was not picked. Yeah, for jury duty. Oh, well, I'm probably happy to get rejected every time I go. I figure I'm retired and I don't have to

01:18:14.390 - 01:19:20.759

go out of my way to get rejected. They want to take me, they can take me. Is I think I copied this down wrong this morning. She has a cell phone too, but I haven't been able to get through on it.

01:19:28.919 - 01:20:09.850

Um, What is it, uh, 510. Um, I have a 510532-1799. That sounds right to me. Yeah, that sounds right. Hold on. I think that's right. 510532. Do you have another one? Looks like no. That's it, huh? OK, let me try her. See if I get anywhere

01:20:09.850 - 01:20:58.580

with her. Can I do this while you're here? Of course. What the hell? 50510532-1799. I'm almost positive I dialed that before. Oh, OK, got it wrong. Well, thanks for giving me your morning. I have some good stuff for

01:20:58.580 - 01:21:42.540

you. On recorded Hi Sheri, this is Peter Shapiro. I'm sitting here in Tom Ryan's office. I've just fired a bunch of questions at him about the Watson strike, and I have a bunch of them for you too, and

01:21:42.540 - 01:21:58.060

he actually felt that you would be better able to answer some of them than he would. Anyway, um, I'd love to come by, uh, some evening perhaps when you're off work. Uh, or actually, you know, if you're open to it, Tom said perhaps the three of

01:21:58.060 - 01:22:20.009

us get together and you can jog his memory some too. But anyway, call me back. My home phone is 510-250-9612, and my cell, which is the best way to get me today, is 503-730-7268. Uh, I'm eager to talk to you. Take care. We see on the

01:22:20.009 - 01:22:45.850

recording? Yeah, that's her office number, whatever that means. I know she's been out of town. Um, so. It's an old picture, isn't it? Oh yeah. Yeah, really, I thought you had a full beard in those days, I guess not. Yeah, well, no, your hair was starting

01:22:45.850 - 01:23:14.120

to turn white then too. That that's a little more recent than plant closures. Well, look, um, Yeah, I'm gonna go home and um. One thing I think I want to do. Uh It doesn't. And Uh, I want to talk to Sergio again uh-huh. And uh do

01:23:14.120 - 01:23:30.399

you, did we talk to Esperan Torres at all? Do we know her at all? Do we have any contact with her? Everybody keeps mentioning her name. I know she was kind of a. She's the one that TDU people always mention is the real worker, you know,

01:23:31.009 - 01:48:05.189

um, I don't know. Remember. OK, there's a bathroom up here you need to key yourself in. OK, I appreciate it take care. Let's give it a shot. that I my God Thank you, sir. your

01:48:57.060 - 02:03:55.270

So And and in Um. OK, followed by 2 car L. 2 car and.