00:00:00.389 - 00:00:21.430

Light and attention as it should have, you know what I mean like the movie. So, um, I went back to school. I go to school part time, um, back in Massachusetts. I'm getting a master's in and whatever and no, no, no, no, don't tell it, no,

00:00:21.440 - 00:00:34.490

no. So the, the teacher that I had, I just wanted to tell you this story. So this teacher, she teaches, uh, labor history. And then she wrote a book on they were history and she had mentioned Watsonville, blah blah blah. So out of this class, one

00:00:34.490 - 00:00:46.650

of the things you have to do is you have to write a, a paper. So I said, well, I would like to write about the Watsonville strike and the role of the left. And she used to be a lefty, I think, with some, some group, uh.

00:00:47.630 - 00:00:59.349

And she knew Bartiky or something. She went down to see Bartiy like a year ago or something. knows him. So I said, so I wanna tell you a different part of the story. So I wrote a paper which, um, I'd like to show you sometime when

00:00:59.349 - 00:01:19.110

you have a minute. And I, so I wrote and I said, uh, the left. Our version of the left more so than TDU, but the left overall made a critical difference. Thank you sweetie. Thank you. So we made this critical difference in the strike, and one

00:01:19.110 - 00:01:37.169

of the things that I said, I just wanted to frame this discussion, it is, um, and Peter saw it in the draft I sent him, is the role that you play personally aside from what we all did as an organization. Your particular role as an organizer

00:01:37.819 - 00:01:54.650

was critical in all this, and I think that you should get acknowledged we all play a big role. Well, many people did a lot of things and it was a group thing, but you in particular, um. This thing wouldn't have happened in my mind without what

00:01:54.650 - 00:02:08.139

you did. No, I don't think so, uh, thank you for that. But no, I, I think it's true because you're the one who broke through. You, you were able to take whatever line and whatever thing we developed and you were able to do it in a

00:02:08.139 - 00:02:24.050

real way. It takes a person. To walk into town and to figure out how to talk to people and implement the line and then come back to us, remember all those thousands of meetings we had and be able to say. They don't want to go with

00:02:24.050 - 00:02:39.100

this or you know all those members when the strike committee was going against us or. And you were able to weather that and not get all caught up and get like all uh crazy, you know why why I, I, that's, that's one of my questions. I

00:02:39.100 - 00:02:58.309

would love to hear your version they don't you answer that they don't rap, you know, they said you came with your. Funny shirts, your little shorts. Your little sandals. So we thought you were gay. She told me they thought you were a hippie, a hippie gay

00:02:58.309 - 00:03:21.100

goes, so you. So he goes, the men were not intimidated by you, so they didn't mind you talking to other women and hang around the women. You're too modest man. That's. Mm. I got my little purse, you know. The trick is to be non-threatening, in other

00:03:21.100 - 00:03:34.710

words. I don't know. No, well, I think you, you have a, a great way of, um, being able to listen to people. So I, I know this is not just an Oscar Love fest, but I wanted to make it clear that that's my position that I

00:03:34.710 - 00:03:54.199

think that you, you played a really, really super critical role, more so than any other, any any single other individual from from our group, of course the strikers and you know, no, I that you know, besides that little part joke. I think what it was a

00:03:54.199 - 00:04:14.589

big part. You know, had been all the, all the. I think I call all the training man that we had, OK, and um. My, my upbringing. And when I became conscious, you know, um, of, you know, conscience. I all I woke up, man. And then being

00:04:14.589 - 00:04:32.920

able to go because I think I have that ability now. To go and, you know, just go in there and, and not be afraid of people, you know, and start relating to them. And first, you know, it's like respecting them, respecting them and not belittle them.

00:04:33.600 - 00:04:46.899

And I'm being able to, to, uh, to listen to them, you know, to what they say, and I think that was a big part and, and I think was the whole backup that I had, you know, we, we had a whole organization behind us which made

00:04:46.899 - 00:05:01.040

it, you know, like, hey, I'm not here by myself. You know that made a big difference, you know, I'm not here by myself and then we had all the, the different support network, you know, all of that was what I think what was, uh, my, my

00:05:01.040 - 00:05:14.899

ability meant to be able to do to get out there, you know, I just, uh, and, and just to end with this one because they just sent me to another plant, OK, and this is, you know, called, uh, Taylor Farms. Brand new, you know, 500 workers

00:05:14.899 - 00:05:29.269

just in the middle of negotiating a contract and they sent me there, right? And it was tough, man. I, you know, there's all these workers, you know, down on the, on the contract, not enough money, they circling me around. I mean, it was, it, you know,

00:05:29.390 - 00:05:44.929

it's tough, man, and not knowing, but, you know, I, I was just able to go in there and, and, and not, not keep personal, yeah, you know, not keep personal, and and and got bombarded. And one particular guy who was a real, real ass man, OK,

00:05:45.049 - 00:05:57.230

he tried to play a real nasty thing on me in front of all the people. Uh You know, I know that people are angry, man, because they, they don't make enough money. I agree, and they, the races should be big, you know, 25 cents is not

00:05:57.230 - 00:06:10.320

enough, all of that stuff. But these guys, you know, we try to turn it around like, you know, no, you guys are just sold outs, man, you know, I'm blah and all that stuff. Interesting enough, right? We were able to pass the first contract fail. OK,

00:06:10.399 - 00:06:26.079

in my area voted at most 220 against the 37, yes. OK, we had to turn it around and we passed it finally a week ago, two weeks ago, 850 to 200, you know, still was that we were able to pass it. OK. I was able to

00:06:26.079 - 00:06:42.690

integrate with the people. This is only a couple of weeks, right? And it was hard, man. It was, I mean, I still like, whoa. The same guy Got terminated a couple of days ago. OK, and he's calling, calling. Now his tone is, you know. And then

00:06:42.690 - 00:06:54.570

you know, you, you, and there's a point when you say, OK, I'm not gonna go, I'm not gonna take a vengeance because it's not my job, but I'm not gonna go out of my way, you know, to go out for you. Why, you know, but the

00:06:54.570 - 00:07:06.690

point here is that that being able to go in there, it was tough, but, but you have to listen to people, man, even when they're attacking you, you know, like, but you have to listen. Then after a while, you know, you try to figure a way

00:07:06.690 - 00:07:22.950

that, that you can turn it to make it into like, OK, what do we do, you know. OK, and then there was this flyer being passed, this is called the rebel, and then they were exposing us. We, we became the enemy, the union, and then we

00:07:22.950 - 00:07:35.660

were not gonna respond, but then after talking to some people, we said no, we need to respond to these guys, and we responded and the, the, the thing that we responded to them was, OK, what do you base your analysis on? We base it on this,

00:07:35.700 - 00:07:48.540

this, this, this, how the conditions are out there. Where do you base yours? And if you are, you know, saying no, no, no, where's your proposal? And I think that, you know, slowed down the people because I was in the I was in the bathroom, you

00:07:48.540 - 00:07:59.299

know, when they were voting and two guys are in the stalls and one of them is still on the other guy. I don't know, man. I think we, I think we should accept this, you know, cause it's pretty tough out there, man, right now. And then

00:07:59.299 - 00:08:13.429

the other guy says, yeah, you know, and the rebelde, the newsletter, the revede all it does is stirs up everything but doesn't give us nothing. To me that was like, you know, but all of this happens, happened in the in the last couple of weeks, you

00:08:13.429 - 00:08:24.109

know, meeting with a lot of folks, and I met one of the strikers there, OK, and she was there, but it was very, you know, it takes a certain, you know, you know what I mean, it takes a certain way of dealing with people to get

00:08:24.109 - 00:08:36.818

in there when you don't know all these people, man, and then they're attacking you, you know, some of them, OK, so I think that part of that is I give it to our training that we have. No, no, I, I agree. I, and, and, and. I

00:08:36.818 - 00:08:55.710

just think that um. In in having an opportunity to, to go back and analyze it, um, and, and try to now in 2010 where the left is such a different animal, to think about did we actually make a difference in the strike my sense was and

00:08:55.710 - 00:09:09.039

you know, um. Was all for all the different things that you were saying, you know, because of what we believed in what our line was and stuff that we are actually in this case we're able to implement a lie that was different. It was different from

00:09:09.039 - 00:09:26.770

Frank. It was different from Joe, and they can be nice guys or you know whatever, but it was different. There was a respect for those folks that we had. You had it personally. We had it as our line that that part and then trying to figure

00:09:26.770 - 00:09:38.169

out a solution to all these different things that are happening, I think was what kind of made the difference, you know what I mean? So I, I don't, I, I know you have to get to your questions, Peter. I just wanna make sure that we, we

00:09:38.169 - 00:09:56.109

start with some commonplace because we know the three of us that. There's a lot of um different versions that go around, you know, uh, since the league ended and all these things happened and no one, you know, it's got so weird, you know, everyone, um, like,

00:09:56.119 - 00:10:12.609

uh, when, when Gary, uh, Kazono passed away, everybody was there and Here's this big event for Gary and everyone, people get out from Local 2 and everyone's talking and stuff, and they're saying, you know, uh, yeah, Gary was a great union activist and he was a

00:10:12.609 - 00:10:27.080

great this. And I personally, I just couldn't take it anymore. So I'm like, so I go up to the front and I just said, you know, You know, Gary was not just a union activist. Gary was a fucking activist, you know what I mean? That's what

00:10:27.080 - 00:10:37.929

his whole life was about, you know what I mean? And I didn't want to say something more than Marlene was comfortable with, but, you know, basically, I want to say he was a fucking communist, you know what I mean? And that's why. That's what he was.

00:10:37.969 - 00:10:50.450

That's why in the local 2 strike, he was the best. It wasn't just because he was such a hardworking guy and you know what I mean, his uh Sanger Japanese American roots that made him such a wonderful person. He was a fucking communist and he tried

00:10:50.450 - 00:11:02.419

to do have a good life, you know. Anyway, so. The fact that I'm feeling the same way at Mark Peacock's funeral actually that Sadie said I wanted to sort of stand up and say this guy was a revolutionary. That's why he was what he was. Nobody

00:11:02.419 - 00:11:18.440

said it. No, I should have said it. I, I wasn't Mark and I should have said it, but I didn't, but I said it. Gary's and I, I feel like we have to stand up for who Mark long time ago, really, don't remember 1990 I think

00:11:18.440 - 00:11:36.880

1991. Mark wasn't the little guy. No, big, big tall, he was the guy in the post office. You might you sawer. He's with Karen Wing, OK, yeah, redheaded guy, about 62, you know, uh, that Midwestern but I agree with them because that's what keeps me, you

00:11:36.880 - 00:11:49.799

know, behind all the time. When people ask me, you know, why do you do this, you know. And sometimes I have to, you know, it's like with, with, with this latest issue, and then when they were talking, I finally had to, you have to cut off

00:11:49.799 - 00:11:59.929

from the economist to the political, you know, I can get you a and Peter if you want. I can get you a warm one if you'd like. That's just, you know, you know what I mean, you have to cut off from the economist that we're stuck,

00:11:59.960 - 00:12:13.400

you know, and, and, and, and start doing some politicking, man, you know, and that's part of, that's part of the difference of us, see. And the reason why we were, we had the point of view in the, in the strike and the people still see us

00:12:13.400 - 00:12:26.770

like the Glorias and Cucas and other people, you know, I feel real proud, man, that I can walk in Watsonville anywhere I can walk, and people will come, you know, and some people don't even remember, man, they go and think about what a what a polarizing

00:12:26.770 - 00:12:43.445

issue that was right. And all the years since as mayor, as city councilman, you've maintained uh a position where you don't have to like walk around with a bodyguard or you know duck around or you know what I mean, no, no, yeah, but it started then,

00:12:43.765 - 00:12:58.859

right? It started, it started and, and, uh, I think in a certain way we have continued it. You know, and even now in the local in the 890 trying to learn from some of the experience and trying to see how after we, we, you know, we

00:12:58.869 - 00:13:12.690

we took it again. So who are you with and, uh, and I know we will get off this, Peter, and it's one second. Who else are you with in 890 now? Anyone that I know is Tony still there? Tony We just kicked them out. I don't

00:13:12.690 - 00:13:29.210

know who you kicked out. So, OK, Frank, remember Frank Gale, OK, he decided to retire. OK, so he, the, the board gave the seat to Crescencio. Crescencio Diaz, he was the, he was the vice president. OK. Tony got all upset because Tony's last name was Tony

00:13:29.210 - 00:13:47.890

Gonzalez. Yes, he got all upset because he went to Crescencio, so he's tried, he tried to sabotage it and, uh, in the elections of September. He went against Crescencio in our slate. OK, we did a bad campaign and you know there have been 12 years and

00:13:47.890 - 00:14:03.719

have been no elections, and we didn't do a good campaign. He organized. He went. He lied. He did everything and he won. He beat us by, uh, 79 votes. We found out that 1200 people did not keep their ballots. Because they were seasonal workers and being

00:14:03.719 - 00:14:20.599

seasonal workers they're able to vote so the international messed up on this one so we were able to repeal it and have another election this past September and we, you know, he fired all of us in January the first, OK, and from January the first, the

00:14:20.599 - 00:14:33.099

Allianz office came into action again. We used it again, you know, and they came and it brought another history again. People like every time they came over there, so what is this? So I had to go back and tell them, OK, what is this? And we

00:14:33.099 - 00:14:49.280

went and went and went and went and, and for, for 9 months, OK, we organized. We met every week, we made a plan who came, you know, who came into it. You know, Mike, Mike Johnston, and he was the, he, he was our strategist and he

00:14:49.280 - 00:15:05.299

was the, the one that the conductor, man, that made it happen because he, he, he knew, you know, that we, that we needed a better campaign, you know, and we gave him the authority to, to be the whipper. And we were able to win by 4150

00:15:05.299 - 00:15:17.020

votes more, so we took it over. We kicked Tony out, but for those 9 months, man, you know, the workers were able to see all the lies that Tony has said, and they were not ready, man. You know, you know how it is. Every day fighting

00:15:17.020 - 00:15:32.700

grievances, this, this, this, they were, they were not ready, uh, we're still 8000 members, yeah, and, um. For 9 months we stayed in contact with the workers and we were they were the ones that helped them do the grievances and everything because those guys they had

00:15:32.700 - 00:15:47.820

inside they were incompetent, you know. So now after we came back, it's been nonstop, you know, because we have to go back. So anyway, so that's OK, OK, got it. OK, so we're all oriented. Thanks. No, no, it's OK. I mean, actually this is good and

00:15:47.820 - 00:16:02.650

if we had more time I'd want to pursue it, um. You told me actually how you came to Watsonville, you know, you talked about Rayan Manuel taking you around and introducing you to people and you realized that nobody was in charge, that kind of thing. Um,

00:16:02.840 - 00:16:16.739

are you recording? Yeah, this has all been recorded. Oh, I, I, I should have warned you guys. Nobody said anything they want a race, did they? I can just cut it off. I mean, I do want to talk openly about the league here. I hope nobody

00:16:16.739 - 00:16:32.820

freaks out. I'm OK, I think too much time has gone by for it to matter, um. One thing I want at the very beginning of the summit, Tom, you wrote in the aftermath of the campaign, we recruited the main leaders in the process of recruiting more

00:16:32.820 - 00:16:49.640

workers and sinking routes within the King workers' movement and so forth. Did we actually recruit any of the strikers into the organization? We were really definitely trying, you know, but, but really like coming in to say I don't remember, I don't think so. We didn't never

00:16:49.640 - 00:17:03.820

joined and is not I mean he's a righteous guy, but he's not a communist, and I, I think to be fair we didn't really know what form that would look like, whether or not we would have had to start like a, a separate unit of the

00:17:03.820 - 00:17:22.900

strikers, and we didn't, we didn't. I think the closest that came was um. Ray, you know, uh, trying to remember his name, um, soon to come to me, but he was the closest that when that red baited me, you know, he went and told the president,

00:17:22.959 - 00:17:34.430

if you remember, oh yeah, he were trying to get me, you know, to become part of the the league, and then because they tried to red bait me when I, when I came to council, and this, he was the guy who we were trying to recruit

00:17:34.430 - 00:17:51.609

the most and, and I think that was the closest. I don't know if you remember him, OK. Reyes Reyes Reyes Jimenez, yeah, that was his name, yeah, OK, yeah, um, but, but, but just to be clear, I think, um, the way that you work with Cuca,

00:17:51.869 - 00:18:13.569

Gloria, Chavelo, they knew. They were very clear. They knew they didn't exactly know what it meant, of course, but they knew, uh, that you were part of this other group that included Cherie and, you know, David and, you know, me and whoever else that, you know,

00:18:13.579 - 00:18:35.439

Soledad, yeah, Steve, yes, yeah, yeah, they, they talk about Sio. They asked me about her a couple times. I haven't seen her in years. As well, she used to be a roommate of my sister and, yeah, um. Now, um, I guess Tom, this is really more

00:18:36.319 - 00:18:52.609

the I remember the whole debate over whether to affiliate the Workers Project with TDU when I talked to Mike, he pulled out a file correspondence he had with Kent. I read it and I thought this is bad news, you know, we had no business. These two

00:18:52.609 - 00:19:06.760

groups had no business working together. There was no political unity. There was no trust, you know, it's like uh it was it was toxic. And it came down as a fight over money, you know, it's like Mike had got all this funding for the Cannery Workers

00:19:06.760 - 00:19:20.959

project, and it was a question of whether he was going to control it or whetherA was going to control it. You don't even know about this. This is before Watsonville. It was, it was just actually it was about 6 months before, and I think it really.

00:19:21.959 - 00:19:35.510

Uh, laid the groundwork for the, you know, the tension between us and TDU at the beginning. You don't think so? Well, real quick because I don't think this is critical to the strike, but maybe there's a connection and I think it's critical for us so we

00:19:35.510 - 00:19:48.619

were. You know, in the league we always trying to figure out ways to work with groups of people that we normally didn't work with, you know, if it was, uh, if it was China support, if it was, you know what I mean, all these different things,

00:19:48.709 - 00:20:02.155

we would reach out to somebody that we didn't normally hang around with, you know, which would usually be some kind of like white. Something or other group, you know what I mean, which wasn't our cup of tea exactly. So with, uh, I think there was some

00:20:02.155 - 00:20:23.189

push inside the organization to be more open to TDU, um, what the TDU canary worker relationship reminded me of was the Watsonville Santa Cruz relationship. Where remember you guys would say Watsonville was the generator of all funds for the county because of the poverty and and

00:20:23.189 - 00:20:33.469

stuff so they would go to the feds and they'd say we need all this money or the state we need all this money, look at our stats in Watsonville and then all the money would stay in Santa Cruz and never come down to Watsonville. We were

00:20:33.469 - 00:20:46.329

afraid of the same thing. They wanted to try to uh control the cannery worker work too much, and we weren't willing to give that up. When you say control, you mean the purse strings. You don't mean the actual organizers. None of those guys knew how to

00:20:46.329 - 00:20:59.300

do it, not that they knew how to do it, but they wanted to put us under their umbrella and their umbrella was not did not represent. Uh, the workers that who were the cannery workers well enough, it was mainly no matter what they tried to do

00:20:59.300 - 00:21:16.599

it, it was always still uh like a white trucker radical organization. It wasn't, um, it wasn't grounded in the cannery worker life. Tom, you read my interview with Joe Fahey, but he made the comment Oscar, you know, when I interviewed him that it was like. They

00:21:16.599 - 00:21:29.560

did attract some people from the canneries, but it was like mainly these angry guys, you know, the Jose Lopez types, you know, the kind of the roughnecks, the ones who get to the union meeting and throw curses at Richard, who would say fuck them, you know,

00:21:29.760 - 00:21:43.040

yeah, you know, it was like, and they were the most militant and I think Frank's. And to a certain extent, Joe's politics too until he figured out better was those are the guys who you really want them, but that's your militant minority and everything and I

00:21:43.040 - 00:22:03.869

think looking back, Joe sees that that was not that shouldn't have been confused with the base in the plant, especially in the plant of 90% women, you know. They uh uh. I guess You know, uh. The point I was trying to make is they thought they

00:22:03.869 - 00:22:18.810

had a base in the plant. Manuel went down there when, when, when was he actually in Watsonville? Manuel went maybe 9 months before the strike, 6 months before the strike. You didn't get there till right around Solidarity day, you know, October 6th, Manuel would have been

00:22:18.810 - 00:22:36.329

there. I'd have to, I'd have to read through some stuff. Manuel went down there and, and no disrespect meant to, you know, people who have passed away and stuff, but. Um, Manuel and Steve got stuck in a kind of a not very healthy, you know, they

00:22:36.329 - 00:22:49.410

would, uh, they were trying to integrate with the local folks, but Manuel wasn't doing very well emotionally right then, and I remember going down there sometimes I'd, I'd show up in Watsonville like 1 or 2 in the afternoon and the blinds would be drawn and the

00:22:49.410 - 00:23:05.780

place they were just waking up and it was like it wasn't, um, but before, right, is that, yeah, but I think, I think, um. That, that, um, to, uh, to, uh, you, I mean, I think that Michael should have probably told you more about that. No,

00:23:05.969 - 00:23:23.359

actually he said he was barely in Watsonville. Yeah, see, I think that their link to Watsonville was through Bardi and them, you know, and I think Manuel, Manuel would come around because they would relate to them, OK, to the PDU group there. And that's how Manuel,

00:23:23.439 - 00:23:39.319

you know, got to meet some folks because remember Manuel came out of the San Jose, I don't know if you know this part. Manuel came out of the San Jose cannery organizing with Mike. He worked in a cannery in San Jose, and then we did the

00:23:39.319 - 00:23:55.329

stuff in Sacramento with Andy Noguchi and all those people. I don't know if you remember that. I, I, I was doing this stuff for years with we had about 4 or 5 different chapters. Mike did some. We had other people doing some and I used to

00:23:55.329 - 00:24:10.619

go up to um Dixon. We had a whole group up in Dixon we used to work with, so we've been working this angle of like trying to represent the seasonal cannery workers. I remember that and then TDU was kind of sort of interested, but I, I,

00:24:10.800 - 00:24:25.780

you know, and, and then it kind of um closer to the strike was of course the most. Uh, dominant, uh, application of all this work that everybody was doing. That's why all those guys went, you know, barbecue, he was having like an orgasm, you know what

00:24:25.780 - 00:24:40.829

I mean? He was like, it's like it's in my hometown. This strike, are you crazy? This is what I live my life for. This is fantastic, you know, he talks a lot about, you know, Jura, uh, that you, how much did you hear about that when

00:24:40.829 - 00:24:53.040

you came to town? Did people talk about that a lot? It was it as big a deal as Frank made it out to me. He said that was where TD really, it was big. It was because that was a real issue, you know. No, actually Anita

00:24:53.040 - 00:25:09.239

started talking about it. She testified at his, you know, at the trial where he got his $1350 or whatever. Thank you. Yeah, well, Para became a big issue and they got a lot of money, you know, um, matter of fact, his daughter came and works in

00:25:09.239 - 00:25:27.680

the city now. Works in Watsonville. And that was, that was TDU's first big break was. That was where they got their, their, their reputation and they started tracking people and they got some people yeah, exactly, yeah, but I didn't, I didn't really, you know, too much

00:25:27.680 - 00:25:42.810

about but you wouldn't, you wouldn't minimize the significance of it. It's not somethingrank just made a big deal out of. Well, remember, for Frank and all of them, they felt that they were the ones that they were the leaders. They were the leaders, man. Yeah, exactly.

00:25:43.060 - 00:25:55.800

Well, Tom, you were saying this the last time we talked on the phone that um You know, in a way you can understand how pissed off they were because these are people who have been working in the community for years. We're finally at the point where

00:25:55.800 - 00:26:10.839

they was going to pay off for them and we come in from outside 1010, 12 people down there, you know, who just sort of organized the ground right out from under them and they didn't trust our motives. They didn't agree with our politics, you know, it

00:26:10.839 - 00:26:22.780

just sort of came off like the sort of sectarian power play and that was kind of the way. Joe represented it when he talked to Joan Walsh. Remember that in these Times article. I still see her sometimes on TV and I think about that, you know,

00:26:23.699 - 00:26:37.020

she's a commentator on some of these channels. Joan Walsh. I mean that was she works, she writes for the, um, she was a writer for In these Times but she's now for like Salon.com or something yeah she's she's, she was awful. I mean, and it was

00:26:37.020 - 00:26:47.699

an awful article and it was just, it just struck me as she went down there to write a big story about this big strike and spent half the time talking about bickering on the left to go back to the story. There was an article in the

00:26:47.699 - 00:26:58.819

nation, right? Was it the article? No, there was no, this is the one before that, OK, but what I realized reading it was that, you know, I mean Joe kind of spilled his guts to her, got all the poison out of his system, and then she

00:26:58.819 - 00:27:10.520

dutifully went and got Manuel's side of the story, and you know Manuel sort of answered in kind, and she set the whole article up so it was like balancing their quotes against each other and they said this is nothing that's not sectarian. This is nothing but

00:27:10.520 - 00:27:28.619

sectarian is the way she but the difference I think and just that. Frank and Joe, just to go back to Oscar's original point, they never really had an organization. That could actually sit down and analyze anything. They had a group of people, you know, uh, Barky

00:27:28.619 - 00:27:39.319

would sit down with John Silver and, you know, and then they had a couple of other people, a couple of workers, and they would just, you know, kind of be pissed off, you know what I mean, and they were agitators, and there was a there was

00:27:39.319 - 00:27:50.479

a reason to be pissed off. There was things to be pissed off about, but they didn't have any way to kind of like reflect on the whole thing. You know, to, to, well, the lady, remember the one, the one you interviewed, the one, Fidel Fidelia, OK.

00:27:50.650 - 00:28:05.145

Fidelia was one of them closer to them, and it was interesting that one time, um, the other guy, the, the, what was the name of that when, when you mentioned that the, the Jose. Jose Lopez, yeah, it was real, remember that time when he tried to

00:28:05.145 - 00:28:20.349

approach, well, he tried to approach me, you know, at one point and tried to bully me, OK, and it was Fidelia who told him back off, you know, back off because Oscar has a lot of links around here, OK. But this is the kind of people

00:28:20.349 - 00:28:34.390

that they attracted Fidelia, they're, you know, Fidelia was pretty sharp. I don't know if you remember her, OK, she's very sharp actually, and then, and then there were some other ones, you know, that one of them is still an organizer for, uh, for the Esperanzaanza, yeah,

00:28:34.430 - 00:28:49.233

the one who was evicted, yeah, you know, Esperanza, yeah, OK, those were the group, and then you had Cruz Gomez. See, Cruz Gomez was the leader, OK, in the community and all of them were popular. We didn't know nothing about. Remember Cruz was part of Frank's

00:28:49.233 - 00:29:04.922

group, right? Yeah, but remember we come in and they look at us like she and Karen Fahey was was different. Nobody said boo about her, not even Joe so if anything I should know about her a little bit cuckoo, but she's, yeah, she was like we

00:29:04.922 - 00:29:16.316

thought she was CP at the time. Was that wrong? We were we wrong? No, I think they, I think they were linked with, but they weren't formal. It was like Frank was not CP. No. Oh, Frank was, no, he's an anarchist. Exactly, so they were just

00:29:16.316 - 00:29:28.036

like a loose kind of a collective of people, you know, one thing you said in the sum up was that Frank had been in the RCP. I, I don't think that characterizes politics, you know, he was working in the fields. They were the only left group

00:29:28.036 - 00:29:42.005

in the fields. He joined them. He regretted it immediately. He dropped out. I can't imagine him in the RCP. There was the guy that was a CP was Jim, Jim Broth, Jim Broth from Santa Cruz, yeah, him and his wife, those were the ones that were

00:29:42.005 - 00:29:58.380

in the CP. And they had the usual, you know, we're the vanguard anybody else is, uh, you know, objectively counter revolutionary kind of thing. That was their attitude. You know what I I I read something that I think maybe Peter's article, uh interview with Joe. Joe

00:29:58.380 - 00:30:15.469

was like a little kid when this thing started. I didn't realize 25 years old, you know, when this happened. I didn't. I felt younger. You know, and he had a rough childhood, you know, but you know it wasn't like he was from a privileged background, but

00:30:15.469 - 00:30:27.359

he was a Santa Cruz dropout, you know, I was, no, you know, he made a lot of rookie mistakes and I think if he Had to do over again. There are a whole bunch of things you would have done differently, you know, you see the kicker

00:30:27.359 - 00:30:47.130

here was, you know, we're sent over there. We don't know nobody. I'm going with, um, Manuis Diaz, you know, momma, uh, Reyna, Reyna, right. And she's a she's in you know, incredible woman, right? Go with her. We, we go take my kids. We go there. We

00:30:47.130 - 00:30:58.050

don't know nobody, man. And the first people who, you know, when we ask them who are the leaders here, they tell us, Oh, here they come, Joe Fay and Karen, and when they get off the car, they try to introduce him to us. They just walk

00:30:58.050 - 00:31:12.339

by, OK. The first time during the day, right, we're then marching the next day the cops are there and everything and we're asking who are the leaders who are the leaders, you know, there was nothing, you know, wait tomorrow, wait tomorrow when we come next day,

00:31:12.400 - 00:31:26.119

man, Barrista, he's the leader, and he says, OK, we're gonna work. It was terrible. That's when we come in, start, you know, so just to tell you from, from that moment on, right. To me it was clear who was the leader there. There was no leadership,

00:31:26.709 - 00:31:43.510

but they thought Cruz Gomez, Frank Bardike, you know, Joe Fay, Karen, that they were the leaders, right? That's why the strikers committee was so important. Oh yeah, yeah. Well, you, here's a point from the sum up. Tom, you wrote that actually while while TDU was trying

00:31:43.510 - 00:31:56.000

to pull this rally together. Um, there was an independent motion among the workers that was already going on. They were trying to sort of do their own thing and you realized that that was kind of what we had to be associated with what we had to

00:31:56.000 - 00:32:16.640

encourage. Do you know, can you get more specific about that either? Oscar would be. Well I think you noticed. That people like Gloria were leaders uh you could see that she had presence. Well, it was now. Oh yeah, I mean with Ray now because I mean

00:32:17.130 - 00:32:34.739

Ray and I were the ones that started saying. You know, and Reyna been around. She goes, Hey man, this is crazy here. All these people are here and where's the leadership? See? and we kept asking. There was, there was no leadership. They thought what was going

00:32:34.739 - 00:32:50.660

on, what kind of independent motion was going on among the workers apart from TPD, what were they doing? Who was it? They, this is the whole, the whole confusing thing, see, because they were, remember they were on strike. They were out there and their leaders were,

00:32:51.150 - 00:33:05.800

were some of these people, I mean Bardiy, you know, Joe Fay, Karen, you know, and the workers, you know, by themselves, I mean. I mean Manuel was already beginning, had already come in there because he had taken Gloria to speak somewhere, remember when we went, when

00:33:05.800 - 00:33:19.880

we got in there that day, Manuel was with Gloria somewhere else, you know, because she came back at the next day. OK, they were out there. He took him somewhere. She wasn't there on solidarity day. No, she came in later, yeah, yeah, go ahead, but the

00:33:19.880 - 00:33:36.140

workers were already, you know, because it was their strike. I mean, of course they were, they were trying to do whatever they could. I mean, you know, but. There wasn't clear, you know, leadership from them. Joe Fay and the group of Bartique, the TDU group, they,

00:33:36.219 - 00:33:49.660

I think they really believed they were the leaders of no, they, they did, they did, you know, and Cruz and Cruz, that's why they got so mad at us. Well, Bart's sum up is, you know, they made a terrible mistake. The union was falling apart. It

00:33:49.660 - 00:34:03.375

was nonfunctional. We tried to basically walk into into the power vacuum and act as if we were the union, and we had no business doing that. We should have done what Oscar did, which is get a striker committee together. No, that's Frank's. Yeah, matter of fact,

00:34:03.494 - 00:34:18.735

what that evening, that evening we were still trying to figure out, you know, the march is tomorrow. The march and we kept asking Corea, So when are you meeting for security? Who's gonna lead the, the security meeting tomorrow? Oh, just be in the plaza, just be

00:34:18.735 - 00:34:31.979

in the plaza, you know, or be in the park. And I remember me seeing Sergio there. Sergio was just a lackey, man, at that time because Sergio, OK, he was just a lackey, I mean a BA, uh, you know, uh, Richard King's little boy, man, like

00:34:32.780 - 00:34:43.428

like, oh yeah, he was like a little, and I remember, man, talking to him because they introduced me to him and I said, I said to him, this is your opportunity, man. To be a leader here, you know, because it, it seems like everybody relates to

00:34:43.428 - 00:34:55.029

you that you're the one that's, that they don't even speak Spanish, yeah, yeah, that everybody relates Spanish and English, and I remember him telling him this is your opportunity, you know, for you to play this kind of a role. He just looked at me, you know,

00:34:55.148 - 00:35:10.159

like, who the hell are you? But there was nothing. That's what was so weird. I remember and I think that we call over here, man, we call back over here and we said this is crazy, you know, we can't find the leadership and we're coming with

00:35:10.159 - 00:35:23.850

2 buses or 3 buses. Yeah, we didn't know what the hell. And finally we said, you know what, you know, there's no leadership here because next morning we went to the park and who stands there barbecue and used to say, and we're gonna do this we're

00:35:23.850 - 00:35:38.290

gonna, and then we said that's security. And right there with Rainya, I think Comanuel wasn't there with Raya we had already met a few work Guillermina man Guillermina. She talked about talking to Rayna the day of the rally, you know, Reyna was asking her all sorts

00:35:38.290 - 00:35:49.399

of questions she couldn't answer right there when we said, you know what, this is terrible, and we asked some of the workers, can you, you know. I think it was Guermina and other ones we told them, Can you bring 10 people, you know, and they brought

00:35:49.399 - 00:35:59.360

10 people, remember that one? And we said, and then we organized and then we told the buses, this is what we're gonna do. We just, you know, we're just gonna be in the middle, man of the police and the strikers because right now this is chaotic

00:35:59.360 - 00:36:16.879

here. So that was Bardy and his group and you know, remember. People, when people are coming down from the Bay Area to this, we didn't know very much about the scene, and you had said that there was no like order and stuff, so people really didn't

00:36:16.879 - 00:36:33.270

know is this gonna be like a full blown, you know, kind of police riot or we didn't know and I had been in Mississippi a couple. I knew what this could look like and this this didn't feel very good, you know. Yeah, well, I mean, so.

00:36:36.340 - 00:36:49.100

Did you, at what point did you come up with the idea of like we need to get the workers and, and how did you sell the workers on that, huh. Manuel Diaz, Manuel, OK, yeah, so he was the one who said we really need to have

00:36:49.100 - 00:37:02.020

a striker's committee, you know, we need to call a meeting and, yeah, for whatever, Manu, Manuel was good, man. Yeah, he was, he was, you know, he was, he organized. I mean, he, when he came in with Gloria and when we had the, the, you know,

00:37:02.100 - 00:37:15.800

when we helped the workers organize the security, they saw a little bit on us, you know, they saw a little bit they like what we did and they were the ones, you know, with some other workers, they said. They got, we got closer to them and

00:37:15.800 - 00:37:29.250

it's when, when, when Manuel began to say, you know, we, you know, you need to have leadership here, you know, you need to have your own leadership, and they invited us to go to a house. Workers came to the house, which house was it. Her name

00:37:29.250 - 00:37:45.580

was Margarita. Really Margarita and I don't know what I would have asked her, yeah, she was not margarita, that one margarita. The only thing I remember with Margarita because she has some big nalgas, man, huge, you know what nalgas are? No, uh, big hips, man, you

00:37:45.580 - 00:38:03.080

know, OK, I, I guess, but I wasn't. Matter of fact, you know, I gave her a ride from, yes, well, they were so big, man. That's, that's, that's definitely not the skinny. I gave her a ride from one place to back to the house and then

00:38:03.080 - 00:38:17.840

her supposed to be husband. It wasn't her husband. He came to me, he says, you know, he goes, I don't want you to take this personally. And I'm not jealous. He goes, I don't appreciate you riding around my woman around town, but since you're gay, it's

00:38:17.840 - 00:38:34.500

OK. I say I apologize, OK, but anyway, it was in, in one of those homes. I still go around that area and that's when it started and we had about a whole week of meetings, man, OK, and Manuel started talking to the, that would be great

00:38:34.500 - 00:38:49.610

if you more detail. What, what Manuel did was this is where Gloria came. This is where Cuca came. This is when Chabelo came. You knew none of these people before then, you know, I saw I always remember Cuca because she was. She was like, Yo, and

00:38:49.610 - 00:39:01.889

I'm like, oh yeah, very scary, yeah, she came here and, and she would come in, you know, to talk to Gloria. I would see them, you know, and they would be talking about, you know, fucking being strikers or whatever, you know, and scabs, and I would

00:39:01.889 - 00:39:15.310

just be looking at them because Gloria and Gloria I could see Gloria because I could see the attention that Gloria would get from the other women, you know, and you could see also that the respect that Chabelo had with the workers, you know. And it was

00:39:15.310 - 00:39:28.070

them. The the set up was them. They began to sit down and there were a couple of more. I'm trying to remember who they were, but they, they, you know, Emanue starts explaining to them, you know, the reason why you need to have a leadership is

00:39:28.070 - 00:39:40.010

because the strike is your strike. You need to be at the forefront, you know, and you should have an election. You know, people should have, you know, people should come off and, and, and it should be only strikers, you know, nobody else should be there. I

00:39:40.010 - 00:39:55.860

think the only guy who, who, who was there when they eventually met to select that strikers committee was, uh, Everisto because Everisto did the translations. Oh wow, OK, he was the only one that went to the church. And the committee, Manuel said to them, none of

00:39:55.860 - 00:40:09.780

us should be in there. You guys talk to him, yeah, you guys should be the ones that, that, uh, elect a committee. And when the, when they the workers finally decided that that was the the right way to go, Manuel, Manuel walked them, step in, you

00:40:09.780 - 00:40:24.639

know, step by step, man. This is how you do it, you know, you're gonna have nominations. You're gonna elect and you elect from at that time was Shaw too that was out. So you should have some representation from Shaw, you know, representation from Watson Buchanan. It

00:40:24.639 - 00:40:37.389

should be a mix, you know, of men and women. And that's what happened. And then they even said a number should be about, I think 15 or something like that. And that's what happened. They went in and met them. They made a flyer. They passed it

00:40:37.389 - 00:40:53.590

around and, yeah, you know, there could be a meeting tonight where we're gonna elect the, the strikers' committee, you know, I, which Fay and Bartiki and Silver never recognized. Yeah, yeah, no, I understand that and that's, that's the source of lingering bitterness, I think. Um, what

00:40:53.590 - 00:41:10.510

do you mean they're still pissed off about it, the lack of respect that the committee from TDU. I think that's why you know you can't obsessive about the lack of respect for the strikers that it's like you can't talk to her for 5 minutes without her

00:41:10.510 - 00:41:27.949

going off on that but you can understand, right? Oh yeah, no, no, this is, this is what I'm saying the funny movie that that that that was don't you think that was kind of the crystal. Act in some ways because Uh, theoretically, the strikers Committee is

00:41:27.949 - 00:41:42.270

exactly what a TDU and all those things said should happen, but then, in fact, when it did happen, not under their control here that to me was that exposed that they actually didn't really trust the workers, which, as I think is at the core of the

00:41:42.270 - 00:41:54.409

difference in line that you have. Because we had times during the strike where the strikers, we had a, we would sit in a meeting and we come up with some whatever idea, and then you would go back or whatever you say it to them and they'd

00:41:54.409 - 00:42:10.040

say, no, no, hell no. Give me an example. What's the one about the when they, uh, the Christmas party, I think what happened with that one? That was in 886. There's something about where they, they trashed the. The leadership and we were trying to get them

00:42:10.040 - 00:42:25.080

to hold back but they felt that they we brought some of the leaders from from um the the Teamsters and I think that that uh the union was involved on it and they were, they were upset because some of the, you know, they were taking too

00:42:25.080 - 00:42:40.709

much credit. some of the, the union leaders you talk about those guys from the Western Conference, John Blake and Rodriguez and, you know, the, you know, Chuck McA OK, he's slightly different, yeah, I just saw. And uh I mean, but there were other things I'm trying

00:42:40.709 - 00:42:52.550

to remember there was when there was yeah there was some example I'm, I'm sorry I don't there was something where, where we had a, a push that we wanted them to go one way and the strikers community came back to you and said no, we're gonna

00:42:52.550 - 00:43:07.229

play it this way. And it was something about how they were criticizing maybe Sergio or something at some point and, and you came back I remember to the meeting and you said this is what they wanna do and we all said, well, they're in charge, we

00:43:07.229 - 00:43:26.139

have to go with them we're gonna back them. We're not gonna impose our, you know, idea of what we think is better when they have already thought about it because you are constantly bringing stuff back and forth, right? Matter of fact, Cuca and Gloria. That They

00:43:26.139 - 00:43:42.139

give us all this credit, but they're always gonna say, but they never told us what to do. They're always, I've heard that, right? They're always, they're always discussed it and if we were not in agreement we didn't go for it. Yeah, well, the, the biggest point

00:43:42.139 - 00:43:55.929

of contention I would think is there was so much mistrust of the union, so much resentment of Sergio, and so on. And especially the after, you know, after February when kind of we reoriented our approach a bit and realized that we're gonna have to keep the

00:43:55.929 - 00:44:11.320

teamsters on our side if we wanted to win the strike, or at least not let them screw it up the way the UFCW did in in in. Um, That must have been a difficult sell. Well and, and you know, and TDU had the advantage there because

00:44:11.320 - 00:44:23.149

their whole thing was screw the union, screw the union, you know, how did, how did that how did you stroke, did you have? I would, I would say it was with the strikers committee, you know, because the strikers committee that was part of, uh, the strategy,

00:44:23.639 - 00:44:38.189

you know, that the strikers committee to be effective, they had to make the union accountable and that was where Manuel played a role because You know, he made it, he made it, he, he analyzed it, you know, he was, he wasn't an analyst. And he said,

00:44:38.229 - 00:44:52.659

you know, to us to win, we have to have, you know, the, the union, which is your union, you know, be behind this. You need them, OK? We need them and then you need uh the workers, you know, to be the leaders but not allow this

00:44:52.659 - 00:45:01.830

union, you know, to take over the, the strike, OK? I gotta change batteries. Hold on one second. Are you sure? Yeah.