00:00:00.560 - 00:00:22.909

OK guys, we're on the earthquake work. Never fear underdog is here. Well, let's see, we were talking about um I don't know how we got off on Barnay. Um, you were talking about the, the, the strikers being formed in the formation of discussion and all that.

00:00:23.040 - 00:00:33.959

So here's, yeah, I guess what I was trying to do is have you guys give me a concrete example of where you were, where we came in with our, where the, you know, the unit met or you know, the labor commission met or whatever came up

00:00:33.959 - 00:00:47.619

with a certain decision and then the strikers said no we don't want to do that and we basically changed. There's a specific example of that. You mentioned the Christmas party in '86 when we were spending too much time listening to the striker committee and not up

00:00:47.619 - 00:01:00.319

to the rank and file. I think that's the point you make in there toward the end, I'll find it for you if you want. I think what was happening was we were Carlos had our ear and he had a very ultra left line. Uh, he was

00:01:00.319 - 00:01:15.839

an old, old trot from Mexico, yeah, yeah, he played a big role. Carlos played a big role, you know what fascinated me about him was that that big meeting where Joey, he was able to persuade people to reject the contract, you know, on March 8th, whenever

00:01:15.839 - 00:01:30.330

it was that the contract is, people said, no, go back in the negotiating table, we don't want this without the health benefits and you know. Sergio can do what I can too. Joe played, I think, an important maybe it wasn't his place, but it's good that

00:01:30.330 - 00:01:42.849

he spoke up and said, you know, the part-timers aren't going to have their benefits if we go back to work with this, not for another 3 years, um, and I don't think, you know, nobody on the strikers committee would have thought of that if he hadn't

00:01:42.849 - 00:01:58.290

brought it up, but the person who made the motion not to accept the contract, go back to the negotiating was Carlos. who had been in there with the negotiating committee the whole time, so he was clearly thinking on his feet whether it was because he thought,

00:01:58.510 - 00:02:12.559

well this is what the masses want or we screwed up. We really need to go back there and fight the South some more. I mean you weren't in that meeting, none of us were that was and they threw out all the outsiders. I remember Cu told

00:02:12.559 - 00:02:27.479

me she practically had to bodily carry crews out of the room, you know. Um So I mean Carlos did. I remember you were complaining about him, you know, uh, toward the end that, that, that he was, he was too rigid, he was too kind of doctrinaire.

00:02:27.710 - 00:02:41.539

Well, he got, he got up to his head, OK, you know, he went up to his head and pretty soon he began to feel that, you know, that he was the leader and that, you know, they had to listen he went up to him, you know,

00:02:41.789 - 00:02:52.199

like, you know, without us, you know, you guys don't have nothing to say. He was around at the beginning and then you hear him about him again toward the end, but there was a big period in the middle of the strike when I, I, he hardly

00:02:52.199 - 00:03:05.710

his name hardly came up. He wasn't on the strikers committee or anything like that. Was he elected to the strikers. He was I think he was at the end, you know, because he was in with so here's the point about this one, and I don't know.

00:03:06.369 - 00:03:24.660

You have to say if these things were actually happened, um, so the point we're making in the sum up was that, um, the striker committee. Um, while it was leading, it sometimes, uh, lost touch with some of the mass sentiments, and one of the roles that

00:03:24.660 - 00:03:42.830

you played, I think, um, probably with Manuel is sometimes you would need to actually bring. More information about what the masses of workers were saying into the striker community because they could even themselves get a little bit detached. So this is just what so we said

00:03:42.830 - 00:03:57.350

um. At the Christmas party, many workers began to renew their attacks on the union leadership. Some of the strikers committee leadership felt they had to lead this attack. Others became confused. The strikers committee became less united. We summed up the situation, realized that first of all

00:03:57.350 - 00:04:09.595

we had made the error of working only with the strikers Committee, only with the most. We were out of touch with the sentiments of the massive workers. We realized that for many of the workers, the frustration of the long strike was beginning to boil over. We

00:04:09.595 - 00:04:22.269

decided therefore to focus more attention on the picket lines to stay in touch with the mass sentiments, organize the strikers to continue to meet with the union, get concrete reports. Uh, these meetings were swelling to nearly 100 every week, uh, by this point, so I, I

00:04:22.269 - 00:04:37.464

think it was, I seem to remember those conversations where you were saying, of course you weren't discounting what the, the Chavelos and, and, and Gloria, but of course they didn't have experience, you know, there's nothing magical. About their experience, they didn't know how to lead a

00:04:37.464 - 00:04:54.334

whole strike of, you know, 1100 people either, you know what I mean? So you were yourself spending a lot of time, I think, out on the picket line kind of gathering information about what was the, so in this particular case, it was you, it was to

00:04:54.334 - 00:05:08.260

support sort of the left pole. Because some of some of the line was kind of saying maybe we should tone it down a little bit on the leadership, but what we were losing track of and through your work and stuff we got in touch with it

00:05:08.260 - 00:05:20.450

was that look, people are out and they're pissed and I, I remember a lot of those conversations in the unit meetings when you would come back and say. You know, um, look, this is a hard strike. People are suffering and we have to stay in touch

00:05:20.450 - 00:05:34.019

with that sentiment and then you help the strikers committee if they would sometimes lose track of that, which, you know, someone like Chivelo, who's a very nice guy, but he's a more moderate, and he has a little bit of that bureaucratic mindset. He can talk himself

00:05:34.019 - 00:05:46.450

he became, he became a union official, yeah, yeah. So I think it was just you were just saying as an organization or as a leaders. You had to go out. We had to go out and, and just be in touch with. Does that make sense? Yeah,

00:05:46.489 - 00:06:01.929

it makes sense because a lot of that had to do just, just by walking the picket line and just stand there and talk to them and it was a sense, you know, I mean some people felt they felt pretty, pretty frustrated, I mean, you know, and

00:06:01.929 - 00:06:13.730

I imagine it was nerve wracking after console and it was clear he was not gonna be able to stay in business and you know, OK, well we bankrupt the company and then we're still without jobs and people must have been. And there was no indication it

00:06:13.730 - 00:06:25.369

was going to end the way it did and nobody knew what was going on with the alternative for folks to go back to the fields after they had moved out of the fields into the canaries? That was a big move, you know. Well, people were back

00:06:25.369 - 00:06:39.149

in the fields anyway, you know, the ones who were lucky enough. But in terms of looking at your life, the idea that people wouldn't have that, right? And then there was, you know, there was a little bit of um. I think, I think you're trying to

00:06:39.149 - 00:06:55.820

describe it. There was a little bit of sometimes, um, OK, the strikers committee, you know, because remember after Shaw went in, he only became, you know, Watsonville strikers committee, OK, so you lost some of those folks. Aurora stayed around till the end. She stayed till the

00:06:55.820 - 00:07:09.410

end, yeah, yeah, you know, but well, she lived across the street from Canning, she couldn't stay out of it. you know, I mean she, her heart was there, but there was a certain sentiment sometimes that people felt, you know, well, like the striker community was a

00:07:09.410 - 00:07:23.000

little. Isolated, you know, and like we had to go back and talk to, uh, to them, I mean, you know, to Gloria, to Cuca and to Shabelo that you need to be more in contact with what is happening down there because there's discontent. They even begin

00:07:23.000 - 00:07:37.559

to see them and sometimes, you know, they're aligning themselves too much, you know, in this direction with, especially when the Teamsters brought all those big guys, yeah, I mean, I know it was, it was technically it was a victory for us when the Teamsters International sort

00:07:37.559 - 00:07:49.209

of put all of its marbles in there. But, uh, you know, I mean, nobody liked having them there, least of all Sergio he, as he put it, you know, they're just these guys are just watching me waiting for the little Mexicans foot to slip, you know,

00:07:50.059 - 00:08:05.010

and then Chuck Mac was always threatening to put the local and trusteeship and stuff, and I just had this terrible cross, you know, you're right, the guy is full of self-pity, but I can also appreciate, you know, but they like they like Hirosa. I don't even

00:08:05.010 - 00:08:15.179

know that Sergio liked him, you know, I think he had good ties with the workers. He knew how to talk to people, you know, but he was very much a behind the scenes guy. He was not a mass organizer. I mean, I think he did some

00:08:15.179 - 00:08:28.809

good, interesting stuff in that strike, and I think he made a much bigger difference than I certainly, I didn't even know who he was until, you know, last year, but um, I can realize that, you know, why did the team just launched this boycott. They never

00:08:28.809 - 00:08:40.570

do stuff like this. Why did they go after the bank? Why did they start pulling their funds out, you know. It was because he knew how to pull the wires, you know, he knew who to play against whom and so forth. He went to the convention

00:08:40.570 - 00:08:53.369

and he did some very clever behind the scenes stuff, you know, because he had a new administration coming in trying to get rid of the old guys and he, you know, he that you know a little bit of that one of the one of the things

00:08:53.369 - 00:09:09.450

that That we suggested was for, you know, for the strikers committee to have more of those monthly and weekly meetings because I, yeah, because, because of the loss, you know, that, that, that separation that was taking place. That's what we're suggesting, you know, you, you know,

00:09:09.489 - 00:09:23.210

strikers meeting needs to have meetings every week. You need to hear what's going on and to hear exactly when is that discussion taking place that, that's that's that time, there's that time we went because things will begin, you know, at the end that no, no, it's

00:09:23.210 - 00:09:37.315

right here. OK, yeah, people will be getting frustrated. They were getting frustrated. And people were beginning to like, hey, you know, losing like, and that's where we said, you know, the strikers committee, you know, you guys need to bring the people, man, and have meetings where

00:09:37.315 - 00:09:49.640

you can talk about, give them reports, what's going on, tell them what you know, what, what, what needs to be done, organize the picket line, you know, that began to happen more, OK, and not be scared. I think that that's the role that you played. There's

00:09:49.640 - 00:10:05.599

no you don't go from being one of the strikers to now suddenly being sort of semi in charge and now suddenly like a union official being afraid of all that anger because that anger, glory and then that she had that anger before so there's no reason

00:10:05.599 - 00:10:16.280

for her to be afraid so you helped her, I think. To feel more confident, like we can stand up in front of people and we can talk about this and then after the election went as badly as it did, I know she was really demoralized after

00:10:16.280 - 00:10:29.530

that, wasn't she? Oh yeah, I mean you know the way she was attacked and so forth, and you know she stuck her neck way out and then her brother kind of pulled out. I mean she's still bitter about that. I think there was a miserable for

00:10:29.530 - 00:10:47.710

her and I imagine for the other people on the State. I want to focus on this now because I can't get answers from anybody about what happened in February. Even Joe claims not to remember that the riot on Main Street. But the whole period leading up

00:10:47.710 - 00:11:00.489

to it when you know, TDU attempted to create another kind of a mass formation that was more all inclusive and so forth and they had a A whole game plan they were trying to push of like going to the fields and trying to stop the crops

00:11:00.489 - 00:11:16.400

and trying to stop the scabs and so forth. I mean this very ambitious um thing and they put out a leaflet that just said unite at the top and it called for a meeting on February 8th, I think at the Veterans Hall, and apparently there was

00:11:16.400 - 00:11:30.669

a couple 100 people there. And you know Bartay I think was probably behind the scenes pulling them out of the wires, and they wound up calling for that demonstration on the 17th that ended in the cops broke it up and a bunch of people, some people

00:11:30.669 - 00:11:51.330

broke away and started trashing on Main Street, at which point nothing is heard from this formation again. It was called Teamsters United 912. The initial leaflet that came out calling for that meeting at the Veterans Auditorium, Shavella signed it. Cuca signed it, Gloria signed it. Aurora

00:11:51.330 - 00:12:05.590

signed it. I mean, all of the strikers committee heavyweights signed it, and all of the TDU people did too and Um, Cuca said, you know, I asked her about, she says, well, no, nobody ever asked me to sign it. They can put my name on anything

00:12:05.590 - 00:12:19.789

they want to. That doesn't mean I, you know, Gloria said, I, I don't remember anything like that, and I said, Well, you went to Joe's hearing when the teamsters were trying to, uh, you know, discipline him, and you testified for him. You said, no, we ran

00:12:19.789 - 00:12:32.179

that meeting Joe didn't run it, but she had no memory of the meeting. Uh, I asked Joe about it. He says you got to go look at the transcript of my hearing. So this is, I, what do you remember? What can you tell me about that

00:12:32.179 - 00:12:51.710

whole process? Well, all I remember thinking back now, is that that there was this thing called, I mean, we didn't call it, you know, there was call and I remember that that people walked walked down to the picket line. There was a lot of people. This

00:12:51.710 - 00:13:10.369

is on the 17th. I remember I remember I'm talking about the trash, OK, the riot, you know, and I remember that you know, we talked about it and we said this, you know, there's been this march being called, and who knows what's gonna happen, OK. And

00:13:10.369 - 00:13:21.880

when we went down there to the march, you know, there were some, we were behind. We were watching it because it was already going, I think it was that somebody had called them students and all this stuff, then they were all these students in the university

00:13:22.570 - 00:13:40.539

and I remember when that one of the students, uh, was pointing out to us, telling them that we were agents. Tell them what telling them, telling some workers that we were agents, you know, yeah, that we were agents because I remember, you know, and they kept

00:13:40.539 - 00:13:53.190

pointing, you know, and the workers came and they said, they said to me that, you know, you know, those guys say they're saying that you guys are agents, man. told me you're gonna believe these guys, you know. No, you're gonna believe these guys, man, look who,

00:13:53.299 - 00:14:06.820

look who, who are them, man. And I remember that we went to see the we saw the marchmen were, you know, we were in the background, you know, seeing all this what's going on and by that time it's getting bigger. The police is coming and, uh,

00:14:06.849 - 00:14:31.650

and, and, um, wow, skis God wow, gracias. For. I mean, do you remember, I mean, uh, were you there, you know, I mean, because I remember because I think what tell me what I remember is that there were things like this that happened periodically, right? They

00:14:31.650 - 00:14:47.104

will happen and our thing was like we're not leading it, we're not squashing it, we'll keep track of it, um, but we're gonna just, it's almost like we were gonna monitor. And see what happened, but we knew that these are sort of desperate attempts for that,

00:14:47.414 - 00:15:02.760

that Bartiy group to they always wanted to have something dramatic and grab the limelight, and we knew that this was, this is not going to be one that way, you know what I mean? But because the sentiment of the workers was so um intense. There's no

00:15:02.760 - 00:15:16.599

way we could say, oh no, uh, we would never counter organize against it. We would never say don't go or don't be pissed because that was stupid. So we would just say do what you're gonna do. Um, we don't think it's gonna, you know, take, take

00:15:16.599 - 00:15:31.849

you as far as you think it's gonna take you and try to stay out of, uh, getting our heads kicked in or something, this is good. And I imagine there was a tremendous amount of frustration after shocks. Oh yeah, oh yeah, um, now let me go

00:15:31.849 - 00:15:46.559

back a little bit. Um, Because this is the criticism that Bardiy makes of, of uh of the strikers committee says, you know, it was good, but once they had that meeting and they elected their uh strikers Committee, they didn't have any mass meetings for a long

00:15:46.559 - 00:16:02.090

time, at least not until the spring of '86. Uh, they just operated as if they were just what you just said, like they were like they were, you know, the union leadership, um, so that's an overstatement. Yeah, I mean that's, that's rank. I mean he has

00:16:02.090 - 00:16:19.719

to justify his own mind, but it's like, but there's there's a truth to that then you think well, of course, who taught Chivelo and Gloria Betancourt, who taught anyone? You know, uh, strikes all over the country were losing, you know what I mean, there was no

00:16:19.719 - 00:16:34.719

school to learn how to, to do this properly. So these workers, what, what Frank, I think, didn't ever understand is that just by living her day to day life, Gloria was more in touch with the strikers and their sentiments than he ever would be. He needed

00:16:34.719 - 00:16:49.739

a meeting to, to formalize these things. She, she lived it, you know what I mean, uh. Guillermina would, would get caught up in the food bank, and you know, the day to day life of people in the, in the town was much more integrated into this

00:16:49.739 - 00:17:06.219

whole experience, so people were hearing things. Oscar was there, you knew. You knew from being there you didn't always need a formal mechanism, so, so I, I see this as a breakdown between kind of more franks, slightly outsider, you know, you need a formal way to

00:17:06.219 - 00:17:23.869

do it, but at a certain point we agreed and we supported that and we said that they should have these weekly meetings and they should stay more in touch. When did they start having weekly meetings. Well, this says it was uh prior to January of '87.

00:17:24.430 - 00:17:49.609

So this must have been like in late '86. Yeah. Oh, they were, I think they were having weekly meetings with, yeah, because I mean, uh, Gloria was telling me that like Anita Contreras would would come I'm I'm good thank you. No, um. Gloria was saying that

00:17:49.609 - 00:18:02.989

Anita was there from the beginning. She would show up at every meeting of the striker committee. She'd be very vocal, very outspoken, Anita, yeah, and that the impression I got was this was not just going on at the end of the strike. This was happening fairly

00:18:02.989 - 00:18:18.109

early on. They were having meetings every week, every Monday night at the union hall. And actually what Steve Morrozumi told me was, yeah, there were regular meetings. It's like the problem was that The TDU people, you know, Frank and Joe, well, Joe was the officer at

00:18:18.109 - 00:18:33.189

that point, but Frank wasn't welcome at those meetings. The TDU had pissed off the union so much that, you know, that Sergio wouldn't let him in the building. So therefore they talked these were closed meetings. They weren't closed to the strikers. They were closed to like

00:18:33.550 - 00:18:51.420

local supporters who were not members of local 912. I was able to go in there, yeah, you, because you hadn't pissed off the union, right? Well, and he had a lot of support, yeah, I mean. See see I mean, there were things that happened, right? I

00:18:51.420 - 00:19:05.150

mean, there were things that Boy and, and um Those guys wanted to do, man. One time he came to me and said, I got a great idea. Why don't you go inside the plant, lock yourself inside, take a couple of workers and change yourself. Remember that

00:19:05.150 - 00:19:18.380

one? You know, why didn't he go and do it? He always came up with these ideas, you know, you do. Yeah, well, for me to go lock myself inside. I mean there were things that happened, Peter, that, that, that the people, the people would do it,

00:19:18.390 - 00:19:30.040

you know, there was another time. When uh they, they were, they were heading there with the police. I don't know if you remember that one. They were, they had it with the police and, and it was an evening already. They were throwing rocks and then I

00:19:30.040 - 00:19:42.060

remember going to Chabelo and said Chabelo, man. You know this is enough, man. You know, the police is getting ready, man, and we haven't, we haven't gotten nobody arrested. Why don't we just, you know, kill it right now, you know, stop it. And Chabelo did. He

00:19:42.060 - 00:19:54.900

went and told all the people, you know what, man, stop. Let's retreat. Let's go back home, man. And, and when you remember when this was? I'm trying to remember. I think we're still. Either I was still commuting or something because I remember going to going to

00:19:54.900 - 00:20:06.780

San Jose, man, and talking to you guys and say, man, I really thought at that moment I said, you know, wow, man, you know, I was impressed with the leadership of Chabelo being able to just go and tell people it's time to retreat, you know. And

00:20:06.780 - 00:20:22.599

we were criticized, man, by, uh, by TDU and uh the guy, what was his name again, Jose, OK, he criticized us because he said we had the police pinned down, you know, you know, it was you guys, the chicken shit, you know, the guys that allowed

00:20:22.599 - 00:20:36.520

the police. Took our foot off their neck. Yeah, oh yeah, OK, yeah, you had the police pinned down, you know, later on we found out, man, that they were recruiting, you know, the police. They were starting to bring forces from around, yeah, yeah, yeah, but those

00:20:36.520 - 00:20:48.699

kind of things happen, you know, they were spontaneous, but that they, that one of them um. You know, cook, oh yeah, a little, yeah, they would be invaders, yeah, they would do little things and you, you used to be worried about that, of course you would

00:20:48.699 - 00:21:01.619

be like, I does this right? I remember you, you would, you would sort of try to get her, you knew you couldn't stop him, but you tried to get her to just be smart. Don't be stupid about this. Actually, I mean Emma Jimenez, who I hadn't

00:21:01.619 - 00:21:14.439

heard of before. I mean she was, I guess, pregnant. You know, right before the strike, she had her baby. Which one was that one? Emma Jimenez Emma Emma, yeah, she was a great interview, by the way. Uh, I, I had no clue who she was, but

00:21:14.439 - 00:21:27.869

I mean she's the rank and file, but she was at the senior center. She talked about going out on this, you know, uh, going out in the car and you know, following the scabs between us and then spiking their tires and stuff like that. I mean

00:21:27.869 - 00:21:46.630

this little, little baby in her arms while she did it, you know, I mean it wasn't just the roughnecks, you know, who did that. good. But so, but I, I think at all these junctures, and I, and I know this is not the focus of your

00:21:46.630 - 00:22:03.589

book, Peter, you're, you're, you're making, uh, this is an Obama book. You want to make uh friends on all sides, but, um, not necessarily, Tom. I didn't mean that as a criticism. I mean you're trying to be all sided, but I, I really think, and, and

00:22:03.589 - 00:22:16.359

excuse me if this is my sectarianism flaring up, but I think in all these elements you can see the different line. I, I really want to get to that because the way Oscar was talking, it was like a matter of style of work. We listened to

00:22:16.359 - 00:22:29.959

the workers, they try to deal with, but there was and that was a big that's a line too. No, OK, yeah, it is a line that We also had a different strategic line, I think, which is we're not into this. I mean maybe at the beginning

00:22:29.959 - 00:22:44.719

we were, but we came around to this conclusion that, and I think it probably happened around the time of the Shah settlement to judge from what you wrote. You wrote that there was a lot of demoralization setting in, that the cadre in Watsonville basically had begun

00:22:44.719 - 00:22:57.719

to wonder if the strike was even winnable. And at that point, you know, the center, I guess you came down there and other folks and thought the strike can win if certain conditions are met, and one of them is if we can keep the teamsters with

00:22:57.719 - 00:23:15.599

us on it. And there is a whole kind of strategic approach to. Not piss off the union any more than necessary, you know, do whatever, make whatever compromises are necessary to keep them. On board to keep them back in the strike without sacrificing, we heard, we

00:23:15.599 - 00:23:28.599

found out, I found out a lot more about the resources that the teachers were putting in from your research. We never knew this shit at the time, but we knew at some level that we didn't have enough guns right to pull this thing off, as many

00:23:28.599 - 00:23:43.665

students as we got, as many times that Oscar. People would take folks out to, to speak in Boston or whatever. We knew that that was never quite enough to pull this whole thing off. So that was hard I think for all of us because, you know,

00:23:43.704 - 00:23:56.599

you wanna have that glorious sense that we could, we could do it, but I, and again, I, I, I give you credit, Oscar, because I think since you were there you were pushing all of us to say. You know, we have all these people's lives that

00:23:56.599 - 00:24:12.270

are hoping to get someplace and we can't, this is not, this is not play acting. This is, this is serious shit and we have to take and I felt really strongly. We have a responsibility to make this thing, anything we have to do to win. Um,

00:24:12.439 - 00:24:24.420

you know, sort of come up with the Wells Fargo thing to come up with this, all these different ideas that all of us were working on, we need a lot more allies. So, It pushed us as an organization to think of stuff that we, it's not

00:24:24.420 - 00:24:35.949

the spontaneous thing of course you hate these bastards, you know, who, who, you know, fuck everyone over, but we needed to work with them. So suddenly Chuck Mac and everybody was somebody we had to figure out how we're going to deal with them, right? And I,

00:24:35.979 - 00:24:47.780

I actually, I didn't give you a copy of Alex's report to Chuck Mac, did I? I, I should Xerox and send you each a copy. He, he sent this Chuck Mac sent him in there as a troubleshooter very early on, I think around the same time

00:24:47.780 - 00:25:01.910

you got to town. He saw the situation up. His conclusion was we should not be fighting with Shaw. He really is in financial trouble. He's willing to work with the union. We can deal with him even if we can't get a decent contract from him. We

00:25:01.910 - 00:25:14.489

should settle with Shaw, concentrate all our forces on Watsonville Canning, and he says the workers are together. They'll hold out as long as they need to. We just need to figure out a way to bring consul to turn to his heels because he's not going to

00:25:14.489 - 00:25:25.969

sign with us any way. And that was his strategy that he worked out and he just did everything he could to kind of implement it and I, you know, this is all stuff I get none of us knew, you know, because the guy was a behind

00:25:25.969 - 00:25:41.449

the scenes he had known at the time when he when he died, you know, the funeral, they did talk about that, yeah, yeah, yeah, um, and you know, he came up with the idea for pulling the pension funds out of Wells Fargo. And I don't know,

00:25:41.660 - 00:25:51.780

you know, there's no way to know for sure how much of an impact it had, but it was a big deal. I mean they had $6 billion invested. Well, the Wells Fargo I think was a great example of how you needed everything because they had their

00:25:51.780 - 00:26:08.140

strategy and you relay these conversations that Chuck Mac had with people, whatever, but we've got students and everybody on the line because Wells Fargo. Just like everybody else doesn't like to be embarrassed publicly, and we have those picket lines and stuff like that. That's part of

00:26:09.030 - 00:26:25.430

kind of a two-edged strategy, I think that actually makes a difference. I come back to this, but I want the whole period and we're we we got 5 minutes before you have to actually, you know, we're covering a lot of ground, so this is good, um.

00:26:26.140 - 00:26:35.949

The back to February, Tom, you wrote that people were starting to doubt whether the could be won. Do you want to elaborate on that? What you know, or do you want to elaborate on it that we were starting to I don't think I, I just, I

00:26:35.949 - 00:26:53.760

just think that what, what I would relate now is that of course, you know what I mean, it was so long. And uh everything around us in the country wasn't going very well. There was no reason to believe that you could actually pull this off necessarily.

00:26:53.800 - 00:27:08.194

We didn't have a lot of models, um, but I, I feel that what what pushed us was the sense that Oscar and people on the ground were saying is that, but. You know, this is, we have a responsibility here. We have to make sure that people's

00:27:08.194 - 00:27:19.994

lives, you know what I mean, turn out the best they can. They put their faith in this, this manage to them. So, um, yeah, I think we were, of course we didn't have a model to point to and say, absolutely this is how we're gonna win.

00:27:20.405 - 00:27:33.069

So we were just trying everything we could think of to, to make sure that. That this was not just some kind of a lark. This was not a line that didn't have an impact on the real world. This is the this we were playing in the

00:27:33.069 - 00:27:43.439

big leagues on this one and we had to really pull it off, you know, but it was a real strategic, you know, kind of thinking much harder about what it would take to win and whether it was winnable, that kind of thing, the kind of thing

00:27:43.439 - 00:27:56.209

that doesn't come up when you're first getting involved in a struggle, and we had to be in there for 56 months before we started talking like that. You don't agree. Well, no, no, I don't agree. I mean, I try to remember, and I mean, it's, you

00:27:56.209 - 00:28:11.209

know, it's just interesting you, you do all these things and you don't think that you're gonna be writing about it in 1520 years, yeah, yeah, 20 years later, man, you know, but. I remember that that um the sentiment of the people were so strong, you know,

00:28:11.380 - 00:28:24.739

that they were out there that um they would, you know, and that's what amazes me the people kept saying no, we're not gonna go in there, no, we, you know, we're gonna, yeah, oh yeah, we're gonna stay firm and, and that's what I think kept, kept

00:28:24.739 - 00:28:36.739

us saying, hey, you know what I mean, these, these folks are incredible. They're not gonna bend, man. They're gonna go straight. They need, they need our support more than ever. You know, and, and again, because you had a contention with all these other groups, you know,

00:28:37.020 - 00:28:52.459

the bars, the Joey, the Cruz Gomez, everybody's trying to pull different ways, you know, I mean, and we're, we're trying to say, OK, as this continues to go on, we need to have the leadership of that committee, man, continue to be the leadership, you know, and

00:28:52.459 - 00:29:06.410

work with all these different forces and allow them to do, you know, their own decision making, you know, we're not gonna go tell them, you know, things that we cannot back up, man. Because that those ideas are always trying to do some, um, you know, civil

00:29:06.410 - 00:29:17.400

disobedience. A lot of them came from Bartiki and Joe faking and all of them, you know, that was their thing, you know, we need to do this and get people busted and in some things they, they got people busted in trouble, you know, and they didn't

00:29:17.400 - 00:29:29.609

have the, the, uh, resources to back them up. Yeah, well, they had the, I mean they had Dan Siegel, you know, come down from Berkeley and, uh, you know, defend everybody you mess people's lives up and then you don't have the the resources, and I know

00:29:29.609 - 00:29:44.010

you can't even now with the union. You know, people get put at risk and they make uh as adults they make a decision to put themselves in a position like that. We can't cover everyone's butt completely but as much as possible we have to try, you

00:29:44.010 - 00:29:58.739

know, we can't make crazy and I think to be uh at the base of it we. We were reflecting just what Oscar just said is that this this was an incredible group of people that had figured out some way to stay together and what a resource

00:29:58.739 - 00:30:11.500

that is in a strike. If you have a group of people that has figured out it's not that they were thriving, they were suffering, you know, financially that people were losing their place to live, they didn't have enough to eat, their kids were suffering. All these

00:30:11.500 - 00:30:26.199

things are happening. And still people had decided they were gonna do it. So the least that we could do is come up with some good ideas as to how to make this thing work, you know, that's why we get traveling around the nation, you know. And

00:30:26.199 - 00:30:38.520

I don't know what part you spoke about, you know, the strike coming out, right, and you, you know, when, when we opened it up, you know, the strike came out nationally, because that was the other big part that we had to do. He actually, I mean,

00:30:38.599 - 00:30:51.160

he credits the league for making solidarity a success, you know, way back in October of 85, he says they were the ones who brought 2000 people to Watsonville. I mean, no, he said that flat out, you know, I mean, um, he may not have said it

00:30:51.160 - 00:31:06.770

at the time, but. Um, you know, he, he's 25 years have gone by. Even right after the strike, he, you know, he wrote that article for You know, the current where he tried to sort of give everybody their props, you know, who's this, you know, it's

00:31:06.770 - 00:31:20.050

a very fair article, he said there were two main forces left forces in the strike. This was the TDU line. This is the league's line. They both had things to recommend them. TDU was always trying to get people to think outside the box. The league was,

00:31:20.140 - 00:31:32.489

you know, they understood the national question. So you were inside the box. Yeah, well, no, it wasn't quite that, that, that bad. I mean, he said the league understood the national question. They understood what, what it would take for the workers to hold their ranks together

00:31:32.489 - 00:31:44.520

and so forth, and you know, and TDU did not understand that, you know, so I mean it's. Whether you agree or disagree, it's a fair, he tries very hard to be fair, but what I would take exception with is that, so he basically said, yeah, we

00:31:44.520 - 00:31:57.640

had a good relationship with the workers, but they did all the strategic thinking and they were the brain power behind the strike. I, I don't think I don't buy that one, you know, and this one is reflected in their movie, you know, if you see their

00:31:57.640 - 00:32:07.750

movie. The you know, the first day when they put it out, man, we were, we were, we were so pissed. I remember I told him because we, when we even said, you guys are liars, man, this movie is a lying movie though, no, it's not a

00:32:07.750 - 00:32:21.300

lying. I said, yeah, it's a lying movie because it makes everything down. They were the heroes, you know, and it makes the strikers Committee into a bunch of namby pamby, uh, moderates who didn't stand up for nothing, you know what I mean, as opposed to like

00:32:21.300 - 00:32:34.175

bullshit. These people put their lives on the line, you know what I mean. Well, the biggest, the biggest part they play in the movie is Shala at that last meeting trying to presumably trying to sell the contract, you know, this bad contract, you know, and all

00:32:34.175 - 00:32:57.439

the the rank and file rising up and, you know, against him and he says in the bottom of the strikers, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, um, anyway, um. So Here's what um Tom is this? This is the one you and I and a bunch of we wrote

00:32:57.439 - 00:33:14.250

this sum up at the, you know, 20 years ago. This is the league sum up this is actually so, so you got, you had a hand in writing this too, OK, OK, yeah, I mean um. Probably the whole thing through a series of meetings of the

00:33:14.250 - 00:33:28.229

secretaria summed up the situation to convene a committee composed of experienced cadre from different areas to analyze the situation of the strike. What could be done, what a winnable strategy could be. The general plan was hammered out. It was agreed the strike was winnable if we

00:33:28.229 - 00:33:43.199

could force the Teamsters to more actively pursue a Wells Fargo boycott, if we could fully mobilize the Chicano community, if we could unify and mobilize the workers, and so forth. And I think the first one was really the most problematic, and I imagine that, you know,

00:33:43.459 - 00:34:01.709

not only because it kind of put us at odds with TDU and their whole kind of screw the bureaucrats approach, but also because there was so much anger at the union, especially the way the Shaw strike was settled. So was Sergio's role. Um, Was that critical

00:34:01.709 - 00:34:18.289

at a certain point because even though um it seems like people never really loved the guy, but they um They accepted him at some level he had some followers, you know, and so what was his relationship like with the Glorious and folks not very, I mean,

00:34:18.509 - 00:34:33.830

they were diplomatically, you know, you know, like they're there I can if I come out too much against them, you know, but it was more like. It wasn't like fully integrating, you know, and of course like a Mike Casey, you know, they encouraged them. It was

00:34:33.830 - 00:34:48.539

never like that. They were always like in the background. They were always doing their little thing here and that's what got, get the workers so pissed off because they were always like, they always felt like they were hiding, you know, they were doing something somewhere. And

00:34:48.539 - 00:35:03.330

the relationship that we have when there were meetings, you know, they would come out and they would talk and Um, I mean, that, you know, especially when then when Chabelo wins and he goes inside, I mean, you know, that's later, right? But even during the whole

00:35:03.330 - 00:35:21.510

process, because Chavela was very moderate, you know, he could work with Sergio. So Gloria and Chavelo, would, would Gloria always consider Chavelo to be More like, uh, more conservative, you know, she just would take that as a given, yeah you know but it was OK with

00:35:21.510 - 00:35:34.320

her. She understood that that that he had a role to play, yeah, you know, and that he was well respected. So I think it's this line through Chavelo in certain ways that because you would, I'm sure you were in meetings with them where you had to

00:35:34.320 - 00:35:51.399

kind of Give some reason why you might even have been supporting Chivelo on a certain position and giving his position a little bit more weight sometimes. Because sometimes they would just want to say fuck you to the, the Teamster leadership and and but what I always

00:35:51.399 - 00:36:04.260

found with Gloria is that she was She could be both. She could be very wise and she could be very pissed off almost at the same time. She had a kind of interesting quality, I thought, but maybe because she was a lead woman or something. I

00:36:04.260 - 00:36:20.060

don't know. She was a leader, yeah, she was a foreman there, yeah, yeah, well, but as a woman I think it's different, but I think with Gloria because she just had a certain way to relate to people and how women looked at her and how she,

00:36:20.300 - 00:36:35.090

you know, men also respected her. She was able to always trying to what what do you call it, um, uh, give enthusiasm to the people, you know, enthusiasm, give them hope, you know, uh, and at the same time she knew that, that, um, she was being

00:36:35.090 - 00:36:48.969

watched, OK, and whatever she did while Chavelo, you know, she always felt that Chavelo would get away with things because he's a guy, yeah, you know, uh, but all along, I mean in the picket line and the, and the meetings, it was really a lot was

00:36:48.969 - 00:37:02.590

Gloria, man who kept the momentum going. She checked those meetings. Yeah, Chebelo, you know, and then Carlos coming in later and then Carlos came out, you know, he was a big, you know, the big hero which clashed with Gloria because she felt, you know, who's this

00:37:02.590 - 00:37:12.379

kid, you know, and all of a sudden and another guy, you know what I mean, as a woman, she was like, how many times does a guy have to act like he's in charge, which again, Oscar again to your thing, you were able to work with

00:37:12.379 - 00:37:26.899

her without making her feel that she had to go under you. And then there's where Cuca was there too, you know, because Cuca, as wild as she was, Gloria could control her, you know, and Cuca is really smart. She is, you know, but she's also very

00:37:26.899 - 00:37:40.810

wild, yeah, she's a firecracker, and you know, she would go, I mean, even after today we still say. Where is she heading? What is she doing, you know, I mean, and well, our thing today is we just keep her at bay, you know, yeah, even today

00:37:40.810 - 00:37:57.290

we just keep her at bay and So anyway, but I think that, you know, looking back to at, at that time, there was, there was just so much, um, so much pain. I think that's what it was, there was so much pain. And people were like,

00:37:57.419 - 00:38:19.070

you know, just, you know, that you have some people like Gloria and, and Cuca and then Guillermina and uh that lady, the one you mentioned from Shaw. Aurora Aurora, uh, Santos, you know, uh, Lerma, you know, erma, uh, Lydia, Lydia Lerma, you know, um, you know,

00:38:19.229 - 00:38:35.500

Margarita and some women that they just, they were just so strong, and they just, you know, Anna, I mean, uh. Uh, what's her name, Esperanza, Esperanza Contreras, you know, we weren't able to interview her, you know, Socorro, Murillo, Cristina, all of them, they, you know, there

00:38:35.500 - 00:38:47.139

was like a little group of people that stuck with Gloria, and there's some other lady that died, you know, I don't remember hers, but she was like they were just there, you know, and, and those were the ones that I got me. They were inspired me

00:38:47.139 - 00:39:01.330

because I go look at them, and even with all of this stuff, and, and that's what I felt that Bardiy and Joe Fay. Didn't have that kind of link, you know, with people. They, it's like they didn't have the benefit of that inspiration almost. They could

00:39:01.330 - 00:39:17.820

never have that relationship and never learn what, what we were able to learn a lot through you and Soledad and everyone's relationship with those people. I didn't have all those relationships, but I learned it from you, um. And, and I think Frank never actually had the,

00:39:17.919 - 00:39:29.090

I don't know if he would have been willing to listen, but he didn't have that. He didn't have those relationships. And, and then we had, you know, because we had a group of people, man, um, and the things that we did, right, because we had Solidad,

00:39:29.199 - 00:39:43.850

we had Cheri, we had, and they played roles. I mean, Cheri played a big role in there in, in, in, uh, being able to also do some strategies, man. I mean. You know, everybody, we had a team, and when Steve came and, and Kimmy came, you

00:39:43.850 - 00:39:55.010

know, you know, we were able to, to sit down and analyze, and OK, what are we gonna do, you know, we're gonna do this. So it was a, it was, um, I mean, I think that's what back, you know, gave us the backup. You will come

00:39:55.010 - 00:40:04.260

in, you know, you would take it back, you got, you would analyze, you come back and You would also be coming and saying, OK, this is what's happening, man. Tom would come and we say, name, and this is what's going on, and we would sit down

00:40:04.260 - 00:40:15.300

and analyze things, remember, you know, this is what's going on and this is what we have to do, you know. Tom, I remember you're saying to me at one point fairly recently, it's like that whole 18 months you were constantly trying to figure out what do

00:40:15.300 - 00:40:27.739

we do now, you know, what would it take to to to win this thing. And that you sort of felt like you were stabbing in the dark a lot as well, you know, yeah, and I, I, I would, yeah, and I would defy anyone to feel

00:40:27.739 - 00:40:43.820

that they had a clear blueprint, but I think again we were, we had a determination, uh, and we had these relationships with people and we had a line that actually helped us. You know, kind of chart a path so we could figure out how to relate

00:40:43.820 - 00:40:55.689

to the community. We could figure out how to bring the masses of students and the Chicano movement in, and we had a line that allowed us to have a united front with the team just if we needed it. So we weren't, we didn't close ourselves off

00:40:55.689 - 00:41:10.830

like. One path, you know, some kind of a trot version of a line that just makes you like blind to reality. Reality comes in and we're like, well, what are we gonna do? Yeah, you know, yeah, um, one thing just backing up to that or the,

00:41:10.889 - 00:41:23.439

the election, uh, I, I did talk to Steve Mzumi and I asked him about it and he said, you know, I think that probably you were trying to push a little too fast with that, that, that we weren't ready to really that it was. That it

00:41:23.439 - 00:41:39.159

was a demoralizing experience rather than, you know, the, the, the union election uh in November 85, the first one, you know, the one where Gloria ran and then, you know, her, her brother. Was pushed into running, really didn't want to run, and then just Alex talked

00:41:39.159 - 00:41:51.000

him out of running at the last minute and that pretty much destroyed any chances of that. Um, it was something that didn't work, and yet it was a natural thing to try because you know so much of the focus is on how messed up and corrupt

00:41:51.000 - 00:42:08.060

and ineffectual the union was. OK, King's gone, he's not running for re-election. Here's our chance and yet. We weren't in a position to put it over, you know, the strikers committee wasn't in a position to put it over. They couldn't get the votes. Um, Gloria actually

00:42:08.060 - 00:42:22.310

did not do very well, did she? She only got a pretty small number of votes, didn't she? Several 100. I mean it was, I, I, I assumed that she got a lot more. Yeah, but think about the environment. Oh no, I'm not, yeah, I'm not saying.

00:42:23.030 - 00:42:35.260

I'm saying is we were not in a position to do better than we did. I'm just saying that maybe we we overestimated what was possible. I, I, I, I, I don't know. I, I don't think we, I, I, yeah, sure. I, I just think that these

00:42:35.260 - 00:42:51.870

are like steps that, that you take along the way. I mean, one of the things I learned in doing research for this class was the way we acted, I think was similar to what the CP had done, um, with this uh a cappella. Uh, which was,

00:42:51.879 - 00:43:07.399

uh, uh, a group that organized, um, farm workers and stuff, and, and they had some, they had a lot of the similar characteristics. They had these charismatic, uh, leaders, cadres, people like Oscar, they had the ability to integrate with the masses. They, they listened to what

00:43:07.399 - 00:43:22.689

people were saying. So as I was charting what the CP had done, I, and I made this, uh, analogy to this teacher who, you know, the one who knows barking and she's like, Yeah, I think you're right. Like the league and what the CP had done

00:43:23.139 - 00:43:37.780

like 25 years talking about earlier, Vicky's book, uh, well, some of that stuff, yeah, that same period, but there was like a mass line, you know what I mean, and really integrating with people, um, it was similar to a successful version of what organizing had been

00:43:37.780 - 00:43:54.310

under the CPS. This is the CIO union the teams pretty much put out of business, you know, during the McCarthy era, um. Well, let's, let's move up to Wells Fargo because we have about 20 minutes before Oscar has to leave. Um There was a lot of.

00:43:55.120 - 00:44:11.229

You know, I, well, the sum up says that. The Teamsters really were worried about us going there and making a big thing at the bank. Sometimes we listened to them, sometimes we didn't, sometimes we struggled with them. Sometimes we didn't struggle with them, just went ahead

00:44:11.229 - 00:44:24.899

and did it anyway. I mean, I know that there was a demonstration where Shavella got arrested at the bank that you know that big front page photo on the you're in it, you know, on the on the register we ran in unity that shows a bunch

00:44:24.899 - 00:44:39.340

of people, you know, at the at the gate of the bank, and he's standing there like this and Gloria is there like this in her high heels. in the back or were we in the police station the police station, I think so yeah. OK, I don't

00:44:39.340 - 00:44:52.760

think that was the. Yeah, there was a cop going in there looking rather frightened. It was that was the police station that we went over there and pick them. Uh-huh. OK. Well, the Wells Fargo pickets were in San Francisco. Oh, OK. So that's what I remember.

00:44:52.889 - 00:45:05.209

There was no local Wells Fargo bank that was picketed. I don't think so. We went to the big guys. We went to the ones like on Sanson Street or something in San Francisco tower, and that was the issue of like. I think the teamsters were giving

00:45:05.209 - 00:45:17.600

us the line that they didn't wanna, you know, because, and I now, you know, since I know more how unions work, I know they were probably saying, look, we got some real delicate negotiations going, don't, don't fuck it up for us. We didn't know what they

00:45:17.600 - 00:45:27.530

were and so we just did it anyway, and I think it was fine. I, I think it was if they were smarter they would have just left and they did, they didn't stop us, but they encouraged us to cool up somebody told me maybe it was

00:45:27.530 - 00:45:42.520

Gloria. Well, they couldn't stop us anyway, you know, we're gonna do what we're gonna do whether they like it or not, you know. I think that I have to go back and look at my notes, but Uh, This was something the workers wanted to do anyway,

00:45:42.679 - 00:45:57.550

right? I mean, and certain tactics and, and I'm sure you see this at 890, sometimes you do things. Because you have to keep the involvement, you know, Casey does that with local too. They're just playing with the hotels right now, you know what I mean, some

00:45:57.550 - 00:46:13.439

of these little strikes and stuff, they're not really critical, to be honest, but they do them almost to keep their members involved in this strike. They're not, uh, a disservice to people, but they're not. They're not critical to the, the, the outcome and so we needed

00:46:13.439 - 00:46:27.080

certain mass actions at certain times to keep people involved. Well, this is what Emma said too. She said, you know, those rallies, those things, I mean they were important to us, you know, they, they meant so much, otherwise it would have been totally yeah because then

00:46:27.080 - 00:46:41.030

you don't know what's going on. 6 people are having a dialogue with themselves about strategy and nobody knows what's going on. That was, that was the whole idea about, you know, meeting with people every week. To keep them informed, right, right. We would spend a lot

00:46:41.030 - 00:46:55.139

of our time in the unit meetings talking about how we're gonna keep people involved because you would come back and be like, I don't remember the other thing was that's why we took them also to speak in different places, right, you know, to tell their story,

00:46:55.149 - 00:47:07.679

and that brought them which is really, and, and when you see Gloria's interview with Peter, you know, she, she was really proud of that work that that she had done to raise money and raise consciousness, and you know, she raises that in in her interview with

00:47:07.679 - 00:47:20.570

you. Uh, who's this? Gloria Gloria, yeah, yeah, yeah, um, well, that was, that was a big deal for her is going back to Boston you and talking to a bunch of college kids. Oh they were so smart. They were so educated. I said don't, don't assume

00:47:20.570 - 00:47:43.679

they were smarter than you because you, you know, um, OK, um, quick quote here again after Cono sold the plant, um, on February 28th, the 400 strikers met and elected a new negotiating committee. Um, This was a very tense period. The leadership of the cops. Be

00:47:43.679 - 00:47:57.649

key in leading the strikers through this. We initiated the Wells Fargo boycott, persuading the Teamsters to look the other way. Well of course they were already doing their thing, but we didn't know about it to pick up the strikers' morale as well as solidify more support

00:47:57.649 - 00:48:14.989

among students and other supporters. Um, And then it says toward the end here we were not there solely to back up the workers, but that taking responsibility for the strike meant we had to exert independent initiative of our own as well. We realized that our relations

00:48:14.989 - 00:48:28.760

were not and could not just be with the core of leading workers. We needed direct relations with many sectors of the strikers so that we could formulate and help the strikers and so that's what we addressed before. I think I've covered most of the. Points in

00:48:28.760 - 00:48:44.629

this sum up that I wanted to talk about. What about that? What about the end? I, I would like your remembrance of you tell me the big meeting the vote, you know, turn it down and to come back again and well, the meeting where, where they

00:48:44.629 - 00:48:59.500

passed it, I remember, you know, there was, there was a big meeting, you know, flyers and everything was passed. And this was at the veterans, OK, I'm talking about the meeting where they voted it down where Carlos made the motion to go back, right, with, uh,

00:48:59.570 - 00:49:13.949

so the, the new owner came in and they, they weren't gonna give health benefits to everybody, um, and so Fahy and some of those guys actually pushed. To turn that one down and then they came back like 2 or 3 days later and had a new

00:49:13.949 - 00:49:27.280

deal, right, so, so that first vote, do you remember that? I don't remember that much, you know, you would have been, you have been in the, yeah, you know, but I don't remember well, he was, but I remember people coming out and saying, you know, we

00:49:27.280 - 00:49:42.439

voted down, you know, when they came out after voted down. But immediately went over to Aurora's house and met and decided to have a hunger strike. Well, maybe that's the hunger strike came out then, you know, yeah, yeah, no, I've talked to a couple people who

00:49:42.439 - 00:49:55.820

were in on that and they just went straight from the veterans hall to Aurora's place. And sat down with Maria Carle was there. Maria was one of the agitators to do that, you know, you know, to do the hunger strike a little bit. I don't know.

00:49:55.860 - 00:50:09.500

I haven't been able to find her. Maria. I got a phone number for her and it was disconnected, so you know, nobody knows how to find her. She would love to be interviewed. Maria, when you say she was one of those agitators, you mean in the

00:50:09.500 - 00:50:22.669

in the bar? No, no, no, she was, no, no, no. She was like a social service lady, right? Yeah, she was, she was, and you know at that time she was going around with an attorney, Jose, you know, Jose, the guy who did all the unemployed

00:50:22.669 - 00:50:37.959

here, yeah, you know, he passed away, and, um, Maria, Maria was involved, you know, from coming and supporting the women, OK, and this she got involved in the strike, I think when, when Anita mentioned, you know, we should do a hunger strike, you know, and then,

00:50:38.229 - 00:50:49.770

you know, do a vigil to the church and uh. And they support Maria. I, I remember Maria saying, ah, I think that would be neat, you know, let's, let's do it. Cheri got involved in all that stuff, you know, to Sheri, to hear Shari tell it,

00:50:49.780 - 00:51:00.939

she got told. Well, I remember she didn't get told. She was, I remember she volunteered, man. She said, you know, oh, I think that would be neat, you know, and, and Maria was one of those and then all of a sudden, you know, I mean, like

00:51:00.939 - 00:51:13.350

we said. I remember we saying, man, are you guys sure you wanna do this, you know, and they were serious. We go, no, we're serious and we said, OK, on the knees, yeah, good. Well, Gloria wouldn't do that, no, but we said, you know, if you

00:51:13.350 - 00:51:23.969

wanna do it, you know, I mean they're all enthusiastic, they wanna do a hunger strike. Was Anita, one of the main ones? Yeah, Anita, yeah, and she said, you know, we, we do. I mean they were so. See, the thing was that there was so much

00:51:23.969 - 00:51:36.409

initiative that people took and we supported the man. We wanted people to do, to do things they want to do it, we've been support, man. What Anita said is I'm gonna go on my knees and march to Saint Patrick's, you know, whether you guys come with

00:51:36.409 - 00:51:47.810

me or not. I'm gonna do this, you know, I, I'm gonna make my appeal to God. So people said, OK, we're on, you know, they did, you know, Gloria said, I'm not going on my knees because they see me on my knees, you know, but that,

00:51:47.899 - 00:52:01.949

yeah, but that's the um yeah. That's, that's mass activity, you know what I mean, like, anyone who thinks that you can script it, you know what I mean, that it's all planned, that it's all part of some big blueprint bullshit, you know what I mean. The

00:52:01.949 - 00:52:15.070

fact that the the women had enough confidence in themselves and and initiative and stuff and, and again I think that that part of the work that that people did in Watsonville is really encourage that and help that to be supported so it's like you have an

00:52:15.070 - 00:52:25.975

idea we'll back you up. You have an idea we're not that sure we're gonna we're gonna tell you what our idea is you may do it anyway, but we're, we're not gonna hold back and just suck up to you and because we think that you. You

00:52:25.975 - 00:52:36.415

know everything. We're, we're gonna raise ideas that we think you're wrong. We're gonna tell you, you know, that back and forth, I think is critical, you know what I mean? I want to ask who we had in Watsonville. I mean, I know toward the end a

00:52:36.415 - 00:52:50.655

whole bunch of people went down, uh, you know, like in late '86, um, and then people stayed afterwards. I guess that would be when, uh, what's your name, Dona went down and, you know, Bill and Andrea and so forth. But then, but then you came after

00:52:50.655 - 00:53:18.290

the strike, no. Yeah, I think so. Yeah, I mean, and then there was the 80 work sure he went over to but um. Bilota. OK, yeah, um, who was, who was in Watsonville like for you? I mean, Steve went down about the same time you did.

00:53:18.780 - 00:53:39.530

Manuel was the only one who was there before the strike. You and Steve went down around Solidarity day. Cherie came around, I guess February was I remember she was doing was there. Paul was there. uh Soledad was there David, Kimmy. They and Kimmy were more towards

00:53:39.530 - 00:53:57.989

the end, no. Because they were more like United, uh, they were 90, yeah, um, but Bill for part of it, yeah. Bill in the early part and then he left. What happened? Yeah, he left, yeah, yeah, he went to Washington. He was doing a lot of

00:53:57.989 - 00:54:12.649

uh research and stuff, and, uh, you know, and he started writing those articles in the labor center reporter and so forth, and that was the early part when we had some of the workers conferences and stuff, yeah, um, but during the actual. The meat of the

00:54:12.649 - 00:54:32.949

strike like in 1986. Who was there? Soledad, Cherie, Oscar, Steve, Paul, Paul Manuel, Manuel, yeah, yeah. So I said yeah. So you guys were the ones who kind of did the heavy lifting in terms of, you know, being the league in Watsonville during the bulk of

00:54:32.949 - 00:54:52.110

the strike. We were the, yeah, yeah, yeah, um, how often did you go downtown? You come you come every week, man, with with us, you know. Were you, were you there for all units or a lot, yeah, I, I just have this remembrance of, of coming

00:54:52.110 - 00:55:06.229

back at like 2 o'clock in the morning. Over that, uh, over 17 and with my blue truck trying to keep myself awake and I learned I had this thing where I would scream. I was so fucking tired because I was so stupid. I would go, you

00:55:06.229 - 00:55:22.554

know, come back late. I would scream, I would scream at myself. I'd open the window, I'm trying to get some cold air and I would scream at myself. Wake up, motherfucker, you fucking asshole. Wake the fuck up. And I'm like screaming slap, yeah, just to get

00:55:22.554 - 00:55:34.739

myself adrenaline. I'm sure you did too, you know. You probably scared all the bears. So you're like it was crazy man flying back and forth you will stay. We tell them stay, man. What are you gonna no I have to go back, you know. Um, well,

00:55:35.389 - 00:55:50.570

we've got a few minutes, uh, before we break up, this is, this is, you know, I've covered pretty much the ground I have in mind. Is there stuff that you guys think should be? In this book, we haven't talked about. Well, I, I, I think as

00:55:50.570 - 00:56:01.570

you start to put it together, I think that, uh, you know, different people need to really see it and, and, and be able to have a chance to read it and think about, you know, is that the way you want to say it or, you know,

00:56:01.649 - 00:56:15.649

whatever, and, and give you opinions. So, so in this book is, uh, is Tali gonna be playing a, a, a role? Oh yeah, you know, I, you know, I, it's funny. Tom was, Tom saw the, you know, the research thing I was sending out to, you

00:56:15.649 - 00:56:32.350

know, try to. Sucker the publisher with and Tom said, you don't say anything about the left in here. You know you've got to talk about that stuff that was critical and you know he's right, you don't necessarily say that when you're hustling a publisher, but part

00:56:32.350 - 00:56:46.520

of me kind of shies away from that because just the way it was so overemphasized by John Walsh and you know. People on the left in particular who just saw it in terms of a pie fight between different left tendencies and so forth and you know

00:56:46.520 - 00:57:02.080

it detracts from The workers, and the other thing is this is what's been hitting me go ahead before you go on to the next point, but that's not, that doesn't have to be in my opinion, right? So. So I wrote a uh a draft. I wrote

00:57:02.080 - 00:57:18.280

a paper, a 20 page paper on just on the left and the league's role in the Watsonville strike, and so, uh, that has lots of weaknesses, but I would, I would suggest that you consider that as the core of some chapter or something because I think

00:57:18.679 - 00:57:37.239

we need. We need to break this nonsense that somehow the same thing I was talking about about Gary's funeral, that somehow we were all, you know, that really Oscar is only like a teamster activist and, you know, Tom works at the labor council and the no.

00:57:37.370 - 00:57:50.919

We have a history and a belief. You don't have to agree with us. We're not asking you to. But in this particular strike, and, and this is a thesis that I started a paper with Peter, you know, I wasn't sure, but I said the left played

00:57:50.919 - 00:58:08.100

a critical role in the success of this Watsonville strike. I don't apologize. I'm not sucking up to nobody. I think that that's actually true. It's factually true that without the left, and I'm even including Bartiy and those guys, the whole left, but mostly us. That strike

00:58:08.100 - 00:58:22.040

would not have been as successful as it was. Did I say that we replaced the workers? You know, I, I, I know you know all this, so we're not, we're not taking any steam away from what the workers did, but the workers on their own could

00:58:22.040 - 00:58:37.709

not have done this necessarily. Of course, us on our own, we couldn't have done it, but that there was needed to be an interaction with those two kind of forces. To make this thing work because lots of other strikes all over the country all they never,

00:58:37.870 - 00:58:52.199

they never work so we had the benefit of a group of workers who could stick together for 18 months who could do what they needed to do. We had all these other factors, but one of the factors was the, the league and the left. Well, you

00:58:52.199 - 00:59:10.330

wanna, well, looking at the city now, you know, and being, you know, uh, being part of the local government there and see what things make things move. I can really see when the local government was so, you know. In cahoots, man, with the cannery owners and,

00:59:10.699 - 00:59:21.909

and with that group of people that think about how we used to, yeah, that they would not do anything, man. I mean I mean aside from the fact that you know what you're facing and saying no we're not gonna waste time translating these council meetings, but

00:59:21.909 - 00:59:35.820

you can see it now when you have a government, you know, in a city, I mean after being there this this 20 years and seeing how the city is to have had that done at that time. It was big time, man. It was big time because

00:59:35.820 - 00:59:46.620

they didn't expect, you know, there was, there was a certain culture there, you know, of people going to work and there was work all over. The people always talk about cannabis. It was a lot of work. There was, you know, popping, man. Things were going, things

00:59:46.620 - 01:00:00.689

were, you had more counsel, you know, and his rich friends and the city. It was like the old plantation, you know, it was perfect. And then all of a sudden this happens, man, and the peasants, you know, rise up with support from the outside and from

01:00:00.689 - 01:00:13.699

us. They made it, made it successful, and that was a blow, man. They they, they, it changed everything. And looking back now, I look, I go, who would be able to do that now, you know, what company could they strike right now? Let's say even Martinelli,

01:00:13.729 - 01:00:27.290

which is, you know, 300 workers, for them to do something like it was done last time with this kind of economy, workers will have to be very bold, man. How would you sum up your experience as mayor? I, I, you know, I, I think that in

01:00:27.729 - 01:00:39.489

that it was uh an experience of coming in when a city was down because after the earthquake, you know, that I think that if, if a city would have been down like it was after the earthquake, it would have been a different experience because then we

01:00:39.489 - 01:00:52.580

would have had different forces coming at us in from a different way, but because the city was down. You know, he opened the door for us to bring it up and we were able to unite all kinds of forces, you know, and I think that gave

01:00:52.580 - 01:01:06.510

me a more door, you know, inside government, but you also have the situation where, you know, hundreds and hundreds of jobs are just disappearing year after year, all the shutting down and you know, people went back into the field just like we didn't want them to

01:01:06.510 - 01:01:23.280

do, which was a challenge, yeah, yeah. Do you feel like you were able to Affect that situation in a good way. Oh yeah, oh yeah, you know, we, you know, we had to, we had to really think about what we're gonna replace all those jobs that

01:01:23.280 - 01:01:36.280

were lost, and that's why you see a lot of, you know, the, the retail things that came to be, um, small businesses. I mean it was a totally different experience and a lot of the stuff that we were doing from the canneries, remember from the canaries

01:01:36.280 - 01:01:49.070

worker workers organizing. Project, it was changed to now let's utilize the city, man, you know, the whole recycling thing, man, you know, that wasn't there before. I still have those reports if you ever want to see them. Oh yeah, you know, those recycling now we have

01:01:49.070 - 01:02:01.510

a whole 3. I don't know if you ever heard this part, Peter. We had 3 business plans that the Small Business Administration had helped us to write. We were gonna recycle wine bottles. We were gonna recycle the plastic off the strawberry fields, and we're gonna open

01:02:01.510 - 01:02:13.159

a coffee shop. And so that we actually have a business plan for those 3 things that the carry workers were gonna do. We didn't do it, but now they're there. We weren't able to do it there's coffee houses now, you know, and Starbucks game and all

01:02:13.159 - 01:02:27.189

these little houses and, you know, we, we have a recycling one of the best recyclings in the whole area. I mean those things that I exist. Before, but I think they see what happened was that I was able to use to utilize the government now, you

01:02:27.189 - 01:02:40.280

know, from that it moved it up, you know, instead of doing it from the Daliza, we started doing it from local government and opened the door more and I started using the government man to do take care of business, um, and I, I would say that

01:02:40.290 - 01:02:53.580

that was the experience that really helped me was the was the earthquake because it was destroyed, man. Well, that was where you really got your. Your credibility that got you elected to the city council. I I remember that that you were out there working in the,

01:02:53.590 - 01:03:14.419

you know, the, the, you know, the the camps where the homeless people that you know what's the deal with city council now? Well, in a not. Uh, on Tuesday, the 30th, there's going to be the election of the new council. Uh, Dan Dodge, who I beat

01:03:14.419 - 01:03:35.699

in '89, finally won. OK, so he's coming into council. This uh bus driver, a good guy, he won because one of the incumbents decided not to run. She was one of our allies, so he's labor, so he's coming in. Um, Manuel Manuel Manuela bearmin, he's the

01:03:35.699 - 01:03:52.330

Filipino Chicano. He's been there for his second term. He has 2 more years and then Luis Alejo, he's the guy who took my place. Uh, he's going to the assembly. He won the assembly seat. He's the current mayor, OK. So, on, on Monday, one of the

01:03:52.330 - 01:04:10.129

council members is taking him to court because he doesn't want him to vote on his successor. Uh-huh. OK. So this is on Monday, the, the, the 29th next week, OK. The 30th is the nomination. OK. In the evening, they're going to nominate, then they're gonna install

01:04:10.129 - 01:04:28.270

the new council members, OK? The new council members, and they're gonna then select uh somebody. To take over for Luis, they're not going to run another election. Well, if they cannot get the 4th vote. OK. So guess who's gonna be the assembly member, I mean the

01:04:28.270 - 01:04:48.189

council member with that. Wow, I thought, I thought you were giving up politics for the union. I was, you know, I am, you know, I mean, but this is a two-year gap that, that, uh, is to help get somebody, you know, so we can keep the,

01:04:48.340 - 01:05:02.919

the majority and the council. My, I told that to my president. My president goes, if you don't have enough work, man, I give you more work. I go just understand this, you know, because also the teams just encouraged, you know, us to be in local government,

01:05:03.500 - 01:05:15.659

you know, and we will have some, you know, majority labor. In there, you know, and I've been tossing and turning and tossing and turning, and they don't know that I'm gonna be the one, you know, because we have another one that she's thinking about it, but

01:05:15.659 - 01:05:31.280

she's not. She was supposed to do it, but she's not. So I'm the one that you're gonna get appointed on the 30th, 30th, you know, and I have the votes, but if Luis can vote, then it's for sure, OK, you know, I have one guy that

01:05:31.550 - 01:05:43.340

he already, he already told me so to support me. I got 3 already, OK? And then we will select the mayor and the vice mayor talk about politics, man. Do you want to be mayor? No, no, no, I don't want to be mayor. No, no, no,

01:05:43.620 - 01:05:56.889

we're gonna let Dan Dodge to be the mayor. And then somebody else is going to be the assistant mayor and. It's gonna be a lot. So that's what's happening. How much time is that to be a city council person? I will. That's what, that's the reason

01:05:56.889 - 01:06:11.050

that I left this last, you know, council term. If I would have stayed, I would have been on my second two years. Luis Alejo would have never had the opportunity to be the assembly, OK, I helped him bring him in. Uh, depends how much you put

01:06:11.050 - 01:06:27.250

on, OK? Like I told the guys, if I go in there, I'm not gonna be, you know, that's why I left because I couldn't be 100%. But I can, I have a vote, which is very important, and then I can utilize, you know, the staff to

01:06:27.250 - 01:06:41.820

do some of the work for the in the community. I'm gonna minimize it. OK, well, I got 11 job for you to do. Gloria asked me to tell you that she wants you to go see Anita at the at the nursing home and she's lonely and

01:06:41.820 - 01:06:53.580

her kids never go see her, you know, it's like she's really, you know, I mean Gloria was practically in tears when we left there, and you know I mean the interview of course was a bust because my translator had other things on her mind, but she

01:06:53.580 - 01:07:10.639

said, you know, Oscar should go see her. They used to be really close. It would mean so much to her, so I'm passing it on, go see her, uh, um. I, you know, Where's your territory for 890? I cover Gilroy. Stockton, I have a company over

01:07:10.639 - 01:07:28.129

there. Oh goodness, yeah, Stockton, uh, Soreo big French multinational. Yes, there's a laundromat of 200 workers there that we represent. Then Gilroy, another 300, 400, and then I have um a packing shed, Taylor Farms. The good about that is Taylor Farm has just gone to Yuma,

01:07:29.080 - 01:07:42.040

so I'm gonna have to concentrate on Gilroy. There's a lot of issues. On Gilroy and Sodexo for the next couple of months. Were you involved in that strike in King City at BASIC? Yeah, I mean, Mike spent about an hour last night the night before last

01:07:42.040 - 01:07:57.469

telling you about it. It's like it was really the high point of his union career, you know, the workers on there now are in foods, uh, yeah, that that sounded like an incredibly difficult, you know, and then they did some real fast, you know, clever, you

01:07:57.469 - 01:08:14.239

know, tactical stuff, you know, in terms of dealing with illegal. But it's like that was, that was an example though of where we, yeah, yeah, uh, we didn't have the, the same presence though, yeah, yeah, well it was just like Mike, you know, and Actually, I'm

01:08:14.239 - 01:08:38.449

gonna shut this down. This has been good, good, yeah, I mean this has been very helpful. Um, well worth the wait, you know, the three of us together, um. No, I, I The sun's coming, sweetheart. Thanks for all that grub, man. Put food in front of

01:08:38.449 - 01:08:56.759

me, I'll eat it like that. Um, you know, that's great. Um, Mike is uh. He, he, he takes a lot of pride in his being able to figure out ways to kind of, you know, game the system. They, they, the fact that they persuade the workers

01:08:56.759 - 01:09:11.740

to go back in, you know, uh, into the plant and then. Uh, to avoid, you know, being decertified, to avoid this, you know, and then go out again. They got laid off and so forth. I mean, I, I couldn't even follow it I was so damn

01:09:11.740 - 01:09:28.660

what I'd call a math strategy. No, he has a sophisticated TDU mind. He still does. Um, that's, that's just where he came from and where his heart was. Um, he's got lots of strengths, but like if he was at the core of the Watsonville strike, we

01:09:28.660 - 01:09:48.799

never would have won. Yeah, well, he wasn't. Manuel, by the way, is not, he's still alive, but I, you know, I think he's very sick. Mike gave me his, his sister's phone number and um. I called her and she said, well, you know, he's got real

01:09:48.799 - 01:10:05.390

serious health issues. Diana, yeah, she, she told me that about my watch. I'll give you the number. Oh shit, um. Uh, it's probably in there somewhere. OK, um, you wanna give it to me when you can? Yeah, I'll give it to you when I can, um.

01:10:06.990 - 01:10:24.479

Yeah, she's she basically. She's in the valley, you know, I don't know I think Dixon like that, but she said, um, I'll pass along your contact information. He can get in touch with you if he wants to or if he feels up to it, and you

01:10:24.479 - 01:10:38.859

know, I pretty much assumed I'm not gonna hear from you. I'd love to talk to him, but You know, I think so much of the important work was done before anybody else was down there and just the way Oscar was talking, you know. He really, you

01:10:38.859 - 01:11:00.470

know, needed the bread, needed the dough before the went into the oven, you know, um. I know people got impatient with him, you know, well, uh. Manuel was really, really bright, right? Manuel, uh, went to Stanford, you know, initially, um, but he didn't have a life

01:11:00.919 - 01:11:17.160

that could support consistent mas work, so he had a lot of brilliant insights and he was, he was brilliant in stages. I'm describing Manuel's contribution you can agree or disagree. I just said he was really smart and he had a lot of really good insights and

01:11:17.160 - 01:11:37.140

he could on occasion be really great. But he couldn't sustain it and because of his um emotional unrest and drinking and different things that were going on, he couldn't um he couldn't keep himself um you couldn't count on him enough to be at the center of

01:11:37.140 - 01:11:58.109

something, but I think that uh. You know, hopefully he, he felt that he made a real contribution. The problem I had, to be honest, I was, I was put in the middle of the Mike Manuel fight and To And not, uh, I always took Manuel's side,

01:11:58.120 - 01:12:10.879

to be honest, and I beat Mike up more than I should have probably because Mike says you shouldn't feel too guilty about that. I know I already discussed this with used to beat up, man. So did he get on your nerves? Yeah, he's, he's a pain

01:12:10.879 - 01:12:28.419

in the ass. But, but I, so I wasn't always fair to Mike, but to be, to be clear, Manuel had Manuel's line is much closer to where our line was, and Mike's. Peter was just describing how Mike, uh, likes to analyze the basic vegetable stuff and

01:12:28.419 - 01:12:43.060

stuff, but I said Mike has a, a kind of a polished up TDU line, to be honest. He never really exactly had our same line, I don't think he's a nice guy or whatever, but he always, you know, he likes to. Uh, I think that the

01:12:43.060 - 01:12:51.339

individual genius is gonna kind of outwit the system kind of thing, yeah, he's he's like a good version of Frank Bardi in a certain way. He's like you don't have to tell him and I'm trying to cut this thing off. I see now why this thing

01:12:51.339 - 01:13:13.629

will not turn off. That's my problem here. That's why I've been running the batteries down. You're supposed to be able to do it by shoving that thing. So when are you when are you coming back again? Yeah, I haven't yet, but I mean, I'm I'm debating

01:13:13.629 - 01:13:24.509

whether to go back to Watsonville. I was going to go back tonight and go to the museum and read up on the, the, the frozen food industry. They got that nice little exhibit out there at the fairgrounds, and I can spend one more night in town

01:13:24.509 - 01:13:31.259

and then drive back to Oakland and turn my rental car in so I don't have to pay any extra money, but you know, Gloria, if you want me to line up any more interviews for you.