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Date and then we'll move into it. Now do you have your questions and uh yeah, OK. Um, I'm Bruce Keiper with the Radical Elder Oral History Project, and this is an interview around the theme of radical elder artists with Irving Frommmer, who is a veteran of

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art and politics and a variety of other things in his life. And the date is May 5, 1978. Irving, uh, when and where were you born? Well, I was born of July 12, 1913. Yes. And actually I was born in Kentucky, but if you want the

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official record, it's Cincinnati, Ohio. The doctor was not licensed to practice in Kentucky, that's all. OK. What was your uh class background, Irving? my Father and mother. Uh, I guess you'd say we're working in class. Uh, And as far as parents go, I think you'll have

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to count my father out because He disappeared before I knew him. It was a separation. Uh So that it's my mother that really. Figures in the picture. Uh, there was some reference, of course, to him, evidently he was. Uh, Very much of a trade unionist, uh,

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and, uh, also a political speaker and uh, uh, from what I I'm told uh he was one of the uh not. Uh, common, uh, speakers that could be heard easily in Madison Square Garden. So they used to use them for that. What what was your father's

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name? Charles. Charles Charles Fromer Frommer. Yeah, it's funny, I've never heard heard of them. Was he well known? I mean, uh, in that period was in that period. And this was Uh, mainly, of course, around Philadelphia and New York. What uh industry did he work in?

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was in the needle trades actually he uh was a tailor by trade. Uh, my mother who. Uh, got into the needle trades unions, uh. Never worked in the trade. She came in uh by a very different process, uh. If you look in this Book by what's

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her name? Wertheimer. Uh, we were there, you'll find most of a page on my mother. Her name was Ida Meyerson at that point. But she was a little disappointed in that. Uh, as it turned out, because they, they had watered down what she. Told them, oh,

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I know it's still alive. I downstairs. Is that right? I would love to her. How old is she now? She's 90s. Someone else has been interviewing her as a matter of fact, uh, which is also I suppose why they got this account into the book. Uh,

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but, uh, she was. Uh, as I say, a little concerned that they'd watered down some of her remarks. She spoke of. Uh The time when She first really came. Into the public picture, uh, she exposed the plans of the Uh, police actually and the manufacturers. Uh

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To, as the book put it, uh. Uh, provoke violence on the picket lines. This is, these were the early, uh, strikes in the garment factories. Uh, it was in Philadelphia, uh, which was an offshoot of the New York strike. She later went to New York, but

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at that point it was Philadelphia. And this was right around about 1913, 1914, around the time uh it was a little earlier, it was more like uh 1911. But she exposed the fact. Actually, what she told them was uh she heard this. Uh, these plans to

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throw acid in the face of the girls on the picket line. Uh, she also, uh, exposed the fact that the Manufacturers were uh Virtually meeting their operating expenses by fines against the workers uh. If you stuck your finger on a needle and blood dripped on the

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cloth, you paid a fine for the blood. Uh, this sort of thing, a regular schedule of fines, but she was doing bookkeeping at that point, uh, so she knew the figures. I don't remember. I it must have been uh drastically low considering the in this room.

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But Uh, anyway, she did, uh, get her education from listening to. The manufacturers at that point. Uh, She would hear them boasting how their workers would never get together because they spoke so many different languages and so on. Uh, and she was not so stupid, but

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she began to wonder what it was. Uh, that was. So valuable uh to the workers that they had to go way out of their way to prevent it. Uh, anyway, she did come out in a big public expose before the union and the press conference and

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so forth and managed to get herself blacklisted in 13 states in the process. Uh, well, there's no sense of me even asking you whether your parents were class. Well, they were, they were conscious. I, I would have to add something to that though. And that is

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My mother's family Which is the one that. I was really aware of, uh, has something of a middle class background and there's A tendency to Uh, revert back or aspire, uh, toward. Uh, something of that kind. In other words, uh, The grandfather and great grandfather and

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so forth they all had uh position and wealth and prided themselves on their culture. Uh, so something of these values tends to hang around. Of Uh, which means uh. Kind of elitism coming in even. Uh, when, as in the case of my mother, you're engaged in

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union organizing, right, right. Well, was your mother, uh, part of the, uh, women's trade, uh, uh, Women's Trade Union League? in the like the women's suffrage question and the aspects of that. Yes, it was mainly in connection with the union organizing itself. But uh evidently she

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was. Uh, sent to Washington and she was sent out to, well, where I was born, uh, uh, to raise money from among the miners then, uh, you'll find her remark, uh, that the miners were much more responsive than the, uh, more well to do, uh, craft

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unions in that she approached in Washington, for instance. Uh And she did uh at some point, uh. Uh, go to see. The Senate Where they were sleeping and. Uh, got into Taft's office, I guess at that time, but uh uh spoke to, uh, some aid. Uh,

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The suffrage came in and that. They were told, well, you know, if they had the vote. This being a women's union, she was speaking for, uh, that would be a different proposition. But in any case, uh, Taft didn't want to appear partial and so he could

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not make a move that uh would be in support of. Uh, a settlement at that time, a settlement would be in favor of the workers. That's interesting. Well, it sounds she sounds like a remarkable woman. I would love to meet her sometime. But uh in terms

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of your ethnic background now, I wonder what is your ethnic stock? It's Jewish, uh, well, uh, Russian Jewish. And was it evident in terms of your own, uh, development as a child? I mean, do you feel the the cautural heritage of that uh background uh influenced

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your own development? Somewhat, uh, we were never religious for thing. And Um, There wasn't uh any Yiddish spoken around, uh, partly I suppose because My mother was single at that point. Uh, but even she, uh, Had to learn Yiddish when she grew up, uh. The where

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it came in was. Uh, in connection with the larger family, and we would join the larger family in Philadelphia come holidays and, uh, it was, uh, that's right, there'd be 40 people sitting around the table and it was all very uh close and reinforcing and uh.

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You know. The strong sense of the Uh, whole culture, um. Other than that, you know, there was of course the consciousness of being Jewish, especially when you're called names, uh. And uh some interest in looking into these things, that type of antii? Uh Mm Not, uh,

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not, uh, anti-Jewish, uh, specifically, uh, there was anti-everything, you might say, because we had everything in that neighborhood. Uh, it was a beautiful mixture, right, uh, and, uh, right, uh, name calling was very much part of the give and take. It's uh no, uh, I. was

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brought up, uh, mainly in New York actually, uh, and this was what's called Yorkville. Uh, at that point. It was Central Europeans mainly one kind or another. Uh, now I guess it's mainly German. They were Germans, of course, Hungarians, uh, everything under the sun. Uh But

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Uh There was This name calling, but The real prejudice was something else. Uh, what was absent, uh, was anything other than European. You know, there were no blacks. Uh, there were. Uh, perhaps some Spaniards but no Mexicans. That sort of thing. So you, you would say

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that the uh the whole question of, of racism. was pivotal in terms of all the these Central European groupings that was the scapegoat, when you say that the people of other minority backgrounds would be served as the scapegoat of these different ethnic constituencies. That would be

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true except that one wasn't aware of it, it was the absence of any blacks really the black migration into New York, although there were blacks in New York, they obviously had not penetrated the uh the areas that you were living in at the time. Uh That's

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that's right, so I was uh uh not. Uh, related to them except, uh, uh, knowing that, uh, they lived in Harlem and so forth. Uh, later as I grew older, I had uh black friends as well as others that was. Uh, in my teens. Well, now

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in terms of your uh educational background, uh your, your father being a labor figure, was uh was he well educated or or did he have like a uh a grade school, high school education uh? Uh, probably a grade school, high school education, but uh. Uh, very

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well read. Right, well, you're speaking of my father who is not in the picture. My mother, uh. Oh, she, uh, read most of the classics, I guess. It was the. Uh, traditional literature, uh. Including some that were considered, uh, perhaps out of line like Balzac and.

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Uh, Victor Hugo, certainly. Now your mother was also Jewish. She was Jewish, right. Um, my grandfather used to read uh. You know, things like uh um. Stern and uh Don Quixote and so forth in Hebrew, but that's another matter. He also spoke a number of languages.

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Uh, the other thing, uh Uh, speaking of my mother, she was part of, uh, what was a sort of Uh, avant garde circle in her day as she saw it, uh, who, uh, idolized Walt Whitman. They had a sort of Walt Whitman circle. Uh, they gathered

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around this, I can't remember his name who printed practically all of Whitman's stuff, and they would go to the concerts with him with this. She talks about how his hands were always black with ink. Well, your, your, uh, parents, when did they immigrate to the United

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States? Mm. Well, let's see, uh, it would have been. Uh, 1883, I guess. Oh, I see. So they were, they were they were not, they immigrated prior to the big wave that came in the tail end of the 90s and the early 1900s. A little before

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that because I know there was a succession of waves of immigrants. Do you know why, uh, did they, did your mother ever talk about why the uh the immigration took place? I mean, yes. What, what were the reasons? There were 5 sons. And there had been

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a big fire in the town and my grandfather lost. Uh, most of his property and the. The key point was he lost the wherewithal to buy his sons out of the army. Uh, keep them from being drafted, and he was not about to see his sons

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go into the czar's army. OK. Uh He was Uh Uh, he had had some. Wealth, I guess, uh, but he was also. Uh Somewhat sympathetic to. What revolutionary movement there was there at that time. I remember hearing of how he helped this fellow escape over the

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river and Have the Police, I guess it was coming around afterwards and questioning him and uh and finally cursing and saying they couldn't get the truth out of those brown eyes. But anyway, it was small town. But uh anyway, he came over to keep his sons

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out of the army. What part of uh Russia was it? It's what it's called white Russia. Uh Somewhere Uh Oh East of What's now Latvia, I guess. Good Well, go ahead. Oh, OK, uh. In terms of your, your parents' whole view of the world, I mean,

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uh, as a child, I mean, of course you, you dealt with your mother. Was your mother, uh, internationally conscious, uh, in other words, I know she was very active in American politics from what I've read about her, but, uh, was she, did she have sort of

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an international worldview? Was she concerned with what was taking place in Europe? I mean, do you remember her talking about that openly with you or or to her friends, uh, from your childhood memory? In some ways, yes, so. Well, for one thing, she worked for. The

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uh Jewish relief, uh, after World War One, so she was very well aware of uh what was going on in the aftermath of the war, the And as a matter of fact, during the war, uh, Of Well, she speaks of the fact that uh. Probably the

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reason she didn't get arrested for opposing the war was uh they found it a little difficult to while she was wheeling a baby buggy. Uh, But uh she was opposed to World War One for one thing. Uh, very strongly. So she, she was a part of

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the uh the peace faction of the, uh, was she a member of the, uh, the socialist party that was she Dempsey and uh socialist or influenced by that whole uh tendency? She was a member of the Socialist Party. And so she decided with the Debian position

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of the war, during during that that split. Uh, how did she survive that? See, I don't remember reading anything beyond what I read in the book. I mean, did she? rallied to, uh, obviously she rallied to Deb's defense, you know, at the when he was arrested

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and but uh how did she, how did that whole split within the uh SP affect her her political vision after the war? Well, I suppose it contributed to the fact that uh uh she became. Inactive politically, but uh probably at least as important was the fact

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that uh she had to work full time, make a living, take care of everything, including us, uh, and it allowed. No time uh for anything outside of. She wasn't active politically once. We were born, although there was obvious awareness. One thing I remember. Uh, strange. Uh

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At some point Well, I remember a pile of magazines in the closet, but I remember at one point, uh, we were to change the linoleum in the kitchen. We had this little apartment that was uh about the size of your foot. But Pulled up the old

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linoleum. And it was padded underneath with what suddenly appeared. It was this old copies of the masses. And here was I, a young kid, seeing these bruisers holding their head in their hand, all these uh strong. Uh, Bob Miner and uh. Art Young cartoons. Uh I

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later found out what they were doing there. Uh, well, for one thing, she didn't have enough room in the little coat closet. Uh, But it seems some. Uh, good friend during the war, fellow socialist. Uh, at the time of the Palmer raids, I guess it was,

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uh, suddenly appeared at the door and said, Here you take this. I hear you. That reminds me of uh Alice, did I tell you about Alice Quman? Alice Quayman told me in uh in uh in the early 50s during the McCarthy period, you would walk down

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any back alley in Brooklyn and it would be, you would find whole Marxian libraries in the trash can, you know, people would be just junk junking all this stuff trying to get rid of any circumstantial evidence, you know, in case they were visiting. Um, so yeah,

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they obviously the same thing took place in the uh Pora period, and that's, that's a, that's an interesting tale. I was always impressed by the bravery of inflicting it on my mother. Well, of course, now was that, uh, I mean, uh, in terms of your own

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cultural development, I mean, was your mother, uh, interested in things like art and culture? I mean, uh, she was obviously a very active person in the labor field and in the political realm, but was she, did she, did she integrate those concerns in her life? From

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your memory. Yes, uh, well, she always, uh, if, if anything, uh, had a. Uh Great uh. sort of a inspired. Respect for art. Well, one thing that had to do with it. Older brother Uh, whom she was perhaps closest to. Uh, had been an artist. Uh,

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a painter. Uh, and, uh, she considered it a privilege, you know, to, uh, wipe off his palette or whatever, uh. It's true he left it when he married. His wife was interested in is making a living. Uh, he got back to it after she died, by

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the way. But uh she had a strong feeling for it she never did any artwork because she always fancied the idea that she would get to do some writing, uh, and of course, uh. And all the traditional records of. That first came along, the old red

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seals. Well, did your mother, uh, I mean, describe your own childhood a little bit, uh, Irving, in the sense, do you feel that you got, uh. This this type of encouragement to pursue the arts as a child. I I suppose I thought of myself as something

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of an artist as far back as I can remember. Uh, and it was partly that other people, uh, were duly impressed. By whatever I did with a pencil. Oh And I was certainly encouraged. Uh, one thing I'm thankful for is the encouragement was always to do

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it on my own, uh, the Uh, a. There was no encouragement to uh. Do it this way or that, but uh originality was what was valued. Uh, Of course Uh, what was accessible was. Pretty traditional. Uh, I would Go to the museums and look at. The

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masterpieces of the ages and uh we had a few of them I guess hanging on the wall in reproduction form. Uh, this sort of thing, uh, all. Uh, obviously, uh, in that type of realism, well, actually romanticism, most of it. Who who were uh some of

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the uh the masters that you uh you uh uh gravitated to in your, in your childhood? In terms of uh your museum excursions, etc. who, who was it that you identified? Well, in the earlier. Time I guess it would be people like Rembrandt. Uh Perhaps uh.

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Michelangelo, although I don't remember. Uh, seeing anything of Michelangelo in the museums except uh cast statues, I suppose. Uh I Titian seemed uh. To have a Lively quality, but I never uh had a great feeling for him. I remember. Uh, wondering about some of this. Uh,

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gilded colors and. Certain fascination, but not any real feeling. Uh, it was uh. I would say uh Rembrandt and Has and people like that. Well, well, as a child, um. Maybe elaborate on your childhood in the sense of the the way in which you lived your

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life, your schooling, uh, things of this sort, uh. First Uh, in connection with art, I said I thought of myself as an artist and uh. Uh, if I went home, uh, Grandpa would shove a piece of his brown paper in front of me and a pencil

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draw draw. Uh, that I, that I got, um. And uh I got it in another way. uh, I was. What might be called a Street artist very literally uh. I would be provided with chalk, mostly by older boys. And uh, I would draw by the hour,

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uh, in the middle of what was a dead end street, which we used for a playground. Uh, and all over the broad sidewalks, there was a school which had a. Sweeping hunk of sidewalk there. And I would Uh, be surrounded. Uh, my mother speaks the time

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she came home and saw this great big crowd and she thought, my God, somebody has fainted, you open up and give them some air in the middle was I on my knees.