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An interview with Jack Wagner. Under the Radical elders Oral History Project. This is the beginning of the interview. This is the first cassette. Harold Rossman is the interviewer. This is September 26th, 1978. And I want to start with the standard list of questions that we always

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begin with so that we know we've touched all the bases, and I'll ask you a number of questions. First, when and where were you going to. I was born in Crawley, Louisiana, July 10th, 1903. Uh, what's your national ancestry if there's such a thing? A general

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mixture of French, German, Scotch, Irish, Welsh, I guess a few others mixed. Well, there's connection though. They're not, uh, they're no Southern European, you're not, uh, you're pretty much a wasp. Well, my, my people, uh, came over some down through, uh, uh. Canada, some came in

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through Virginia and Maryland. And uh and I assume that uh My, my aunts were members of the colonial maidens. The DARs and so on. I've never gone back into my ancestry very much, but they, they thought it was. Quite illustrious and so on, but they My

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People On the Wagner side, migrated from Kentucky and Ohio and then over from Ohio and Illinois. Then my father moved down to Louisiana about turn of the century. Uh, what, what, uh, part of Illinois then was, was your clan centered in and you were born, you

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were born in, in, in the central part about 100 miles due west of Indianapolis, right in the, that black corn belt area there. That was that was that was in Douglas County, one of the big corn producing counties in the. What was, what was the class

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background of uh your immediate ancestors? For the farmers or what? And I, I was told that uh yeah when I completed my medical school education, I would be the 7th. Doctrine line But that's that's a real long. We'll have to go into obviously you didn't become

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the 7th doctor. You sort of broke you broke the the child. Did your dad uh ever, uh, forgive you for that? Well, uh, uh, Dad and I gradually grew apart and when I was 16, I left home, so Dad and I were never close together. In

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fact, I don't recall one serious conversation I had with my father. But there would be other ways for you to, to discover whether he liked you, uh, you know, how he felt about it like, uh, if he could he cut you out of his will? Did

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he disinherit you? Did he? No, he left no will and I think he, he, he didn't leave a will in order to. Uh, save the family or some arguments among the family or the division property didn't leave too much property. But uh And I assume he

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just never. Uh, had the ability to get down and talk with us. He was uh rather respected. He, he, uh, graduated from Rush Medical College in Chicago. Uh, practiced medicine in Illinois, moved to Louisiana and tried his luck as a rice farmer, and was successful. He

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moved on the Gulf Coast. He was not successful or was successful, was not successful. Moved on the Gulf Coast, Texas, and tried rice farming again for 3 years and again was not successful, so he went back to the practice of medicine. He had abandoned the practice

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of medicine for a while, during those 6 years. And why did he do that? Was he trying to get rich or what? was he bored with being a doctor? Well, no, I, I, I think he personally would have liked to be a farmer. In other words,

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I'm, you know what I'm picking up on what? I'm picking up on the fact that he lost the battle that you won. I mean, he, he was, somebody said, OK, you're gonna be #6 in this long line of doctors. And he may have actually gone ahead

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to do it out of that kind of feeling of of. Uh responsibility to the family rather than his own. He he probably was pushed by his, his father. His father was a pretty strong-minded. And I think one thing that affected him. Uh, uh, Grandfather Wagner was

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a pretty tough individual, I guess. They say when he went out on a call when he uh. Come away, he had either a chicken or a hog or cash for his for his uh. Visit And uh he he uh. Well, when Dad was a youngster, he

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had dad collect. Dad never liked that collecting and the result was. That all through life he never pushed to collect the bill. When he died, he left over $50 million on his books, and collected doctor bills. So even though he and I never got along. With

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all my two sisters, he, he, when we got what we wanted, but there was no. Feeling of a relationship of father and son between us. But he was felt in in the community. He was pretty well respected sufficiently. That A number of years they celebrated at

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Doctor Wagner's day in that little town. What was the date? Was his birthday or what did they say? They, they, they used his birthday. Was that while he was alive or while he was alive? That's a very for a man to enjoy his lifetime. And, and

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then in addition, when they built the hospital there, they, they Made it the Wagner Memorial Hospital. How old was the only dad? He was 60 or 50. He was 86 years old. Well, wow, that's a lot of difference, 50 and 60, so he, he lived a

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real nice good long life. He, you know, he had a, he, he, he created a, a, an excellent feeling in the community toward himself. This last community that he died in was what was Palaus. How do you spell that? P A L A C I O

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S Palacio Mexican and it is a little town of about 1500. We want to locate it whereabouts in Texas, about 125 miles southwest of Houston on the on the Gulf Coast on Maticota Bay. Now you've talked about your father. You've talked, you've mentioned the grandfather Wagner,

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father's father, who, what, who were the other grandparents and what? What kind of origins that they have. Well, my, my grandfather Shaw, he, the, the Shaw family adopted my mother when she was 3 months old. Her mother died. Her father was a Scotchman by the name

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of McKenzie. He went back to Scotland shortly after. Uh, uh, his wife died. The Shaws adopted my mother. What what part of the country were they in? Decatur, Illinois? I was in that that area, OK. So, uh, uh, uh, she, she was raised as the only

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child of the shows. Shaw was a was a farmer. He, he had a 3rd grade education, left uh. Philadelphia when he was a. A youngster went in the Civil War. Made a commission in the Civil War. Then settled in that country. And I think perhaps he

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was one of the most respected men in that community. Was he a prosperous farmer or he just, he was a prosperous farmer. He established a. Uh the bank there in the town. Organize it as the president of the bank. He also built a Presbyterian church. And

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he was a kind man. He was a compassionate man. When he built the church, you must remember that was a farming community. The people come in the country on the farm on, on Saturdays to market and so on. So when he built the church. He, he,

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he, he built the basement. I, I, I think there were 3 restrooms, toilet facilities, and so on, and those were free for the women to use come in if they felt like they could lay down. And they could uh change the baby's clothes and so on.

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And uh that was one of the instructions that he gave me. That after he passed on that he was gonna leave the money to see that. That was maintained but to never permit. The, the preacher to put a, put a coin slot on any of those

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rules. That's beautiful. OK, I'm gonna see. Some of where you come from emerging from these things. You mentioned the, the two. Fathers are two male figures. Now what about the women? The grandmothers. Well, the grandmother Wagner was not, you've told me the origin of the of

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of your. You Your grandmother on, on your father's side, I guess, but, uh, tell me a little bit about who they were, what kind of people they were. You mean, the women, the women, when you've told me about the men, don't be a sexist. Tell me

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a little bit about the. My, my grandmother on the Wagner side was a, was an orphan. And uh she was kind of looked down on as a Wagner children, but apparently she was a pretty strong-minded woman and I, I looked back on it. She was the

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the. The one who kept the family moving in right. Uh, this was your father's, no, no, no, this is your father's mother, my father's mother. When uh uh uh my, my grandfather went to Rush Medical College in Chicago, he also did your father same thing as

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my father did. And My, they, they were putting the railroad through the little town we were in. And my grandmother, uh. Kept orders, the railroad workers there to help put my grandfather through, and then he, he went back and served his internship at Bellevue. That's it's

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in New York, yeah. And Uh, so for 3 years, my grandmother, uh, uh, run a boarding house to kind of keep the family together. My father one of us. the girl was born. Then And uh later on uh. Because uh the children hate it very much

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to have mentioned it before grandmother had ran a boarding house. It wasn't very patrician. No, it wasn't wasn't very when you say the children, you mean like your sisters didn't like that my aunt. And But to me that, that sounds like a fine, strong woman. She

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was, she was. Did you, did you know these people in, uh, what, what did they live long enough so you got to know them personally or as much of this. Every summer I went back to Illinois and spent my summers with my grandparents. They both lived

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in the same town. So, uh, uh, I, I knew them fairly well. And then of course uh some of it is. Legend story, you know, the family, so all right, that accounts for one grandmother now the other one. My other grandmother was a She, she was

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a daughter of a farmer and uh. She, she was very active in church work. And uh Also in the Eastern Stars. My grandfather Shaw, he was, I told you, he only had a 3rd grade education. At that time it's very difficult to become a 33rd degree

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Mason. He made a trip back to Scotland to use 33rd degree. It's not in this country. He couldn't get it in this country. He had to go to Scotland. Because you had to have a certain educational attainment. Well, no, I was in a snobbery or what

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was it? Partly a snobbery and partly I, I, I, and I assume on the general reputation of the individual. So, uh, but, but he did become a thirty-third degree major that traveled Scotland. What other religion Things well, for example, Father you said was a Presbyterian or

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your grandfather, grandfather. What, what other, what other religious denominations were mixed in there? What your father grandfather saw the Presbyterian Church there and I wanna give it to them. Because grandmother was a, was a Presbyterian and, and she thought that they should do something for the

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little community there. My grandfather Wagner in return, he. He, he remodeled the Christian church and, and donated a a uh. And Organ There and I, I think mainly in competition with with my other grand uh-huh. So uh they uh. Shaw was a pretty good man. I

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don't know. I don't think he was too religious. Certainly Grandfather Wagner was not bothered with religion. But for status purposes, for status purposes, both of them and the religiously they were, I'm, I'm, I'm certain the only reason that uh. That uh Grandfather Wagner gave this organ

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in the Christian church there was. In competition he was gonna be outdone by this goddamn farmer. Now, were you raised in uh with a religious emphasis that somebody tried to civilize you and died why we went regularly to the She and my two sisters went to

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the Presbyterian Church. Once in a great while. Dad went. After she died, I, I kind of run wild and I went over. To the Baptist church for a while a little girl that I kind of like went there and so on. But I, I, I, I,

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I never was too religious. are tied in with any particular religious group, were your parents? Politically active in the sense that you and I. What do they know? What are they put it? oriented and Father Wagner was, uh, well, you must remember Central Illinois, that farming

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district was all Republican. They didn't permit a Democrat to stay there overnight. You mean you mean literally almost well of course you're talking that's a period very close to the Civil War, right? And, and, uh, now, now that was there was there was a different feeling

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then I think as far as Republicans are concerned than it is today. Grandfather Shaw was a delegate to the most convention in uh in uh Saint Louis in 1912 or 1912. And uh so then he was active, he was really an actor. Not To some extent

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that extent that was, that was uh uh uh of course I, I was little, one of my earliest remembers, by the way, he is. Is, is, is something that I've intended to look into and have it one day I'm going to. My grandfather was quite friendly

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to Joe Cannon. Joe Cannon is it Uncle Joe, Uncle Joe, Uncle Joe is a distant relative into the, the, the Shaw family, not the Shaw family, but the McIntyre family. And I was always told that I was what's the McIntyre's connected? Uh The Grandmother Shaw was

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a MacIntyre. Grandmother Shaw was a McIntyre. Uh, uh, Uncle Joe was, uh, was connected some way with the McIntyre family. I was out with my grandfathers at that time we, we uh. Travel by buggies. My grandfather had accumulated a number of farms. And we were out

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riding and Uncle Joe Cannon was with us. They were talking about politics from home. I, I think I was 6. Not over 7 years old. And of course, I wasn't paying any attention to the conversation. But all of a sudden The the remark that there was

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evidence of over 300. People were murdered. Caught my attention. And I began to listen very closely. And At that time, there was an investigation in Congress on the Rock. And Uncle Joe. Uh, kill that investigations, the publication of that investigation. And then, and then, and but

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he, he made the statement to my grandfather. That there was no less than 300 people murdered. And then taking over this property. Well, that's stuck in my memory, and I thought time and again that I would go back to Washington and see what that investigation was,

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see if there's anything left carried away in an archive somewhere, but, but he was telling my grandfather of the difficulty. burying that Investigation. You ought to check that out sometime. you know, I, I, I, I thought time and again. Many times in my lifetime I'm going

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to Washington to see if I can find it. Hang on to that idea. Let's go back now, let's see, let's see what I wanna ask you, uh. Give me a just a general sense of how you experienced your childhood. What was it? Friendly, was it carefree.

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What you told me that your mother died early, you were sort of turned loose and I was, I was turned loose pretty well, uh, uh. Dad was busy, Dad kept. Not only busy with his practice, he I accumulated some farms and so. Cattle and so on.

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And uh So I, I, I kind of run wild. Let's keep, let's keep ourselves oriented geographically in these periods like when your mother died when you were 7, where were you living? Down to Gulf Coast Texas you had already moved down to the Gulf Coast, OK.

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And uh So that and I kind of bashed. I eat at the hotel and I felt like it. 7 year old kid going off and eating at the hotel, going off and eat the hotel. That's, that was not clearly an ordinary childhood. And uh well, we,

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we wanted to open the hotel there you know me. So, uh, There was a lady over there kind of saw that I had everything I wanted to eat. If I want to close or something, I would even bought them. And we didn't Charging to your father

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probably or you have to spend money on. I never spent any money on the counter. I'm Doc Wagner's kid. I want a pair of pants. Well, small town so if I come in, I want something. I got it and I just signed a check for it.

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So, uh And so I, I, I, I had a little boat. I had a horse. They say, Well, what do you mean a boat with sail or a rowboat, and this was a boat had a small sailboat, small sailboat. And uh She lived on the bay.

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We were sailing a boat as early as 78 years old, I guess when I got that boat. And uh I had. Horse or horses if I want them, so. I, I lived a pretty carefree life doing what I wanted to do, come home when I want

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to do. I want to go out the country. and stayed a week or so. Where would you stay? Well, we, we had number tenant for you didn't go camping or anything like that. You'd stay with people in households. Well, I, I, I went camping a little

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bit with the Boy Scouts down there, not much. I did a lot of hunting Lots of ducks down there. Are you still at what ages are you now talking about when you were hunting and shooting firearms? Oh, I got my first firearm, I guess, when I

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was about 10. went on All the kids down there had guns. That a little different than what day anybody had been out of the county was a pretty well traveled individual. They and you were kind of well traveled by local standards well traveled by local standards.

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Um, I don't get a sense of whether that was still, uh, pretty much of a solitary existence. You had the boat. You had the horses, you went out. Did you have close cronies? Did you have kids that you palled around with? Was there a gang or

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were you pretty much a loner in Oh, I wasn't too much of a loner. I had friends. Kind of played with in school. And it Football or baseball team. How long, how long did your schooling? I now went to junior to my junior class, junior class

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of high school, high school, it will be about 3 years in high school. What, what, what did it stop at that point? Well, my, my father. He was married twice. He married a doctor. For about a year after you? The sea of My mother died at

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11, I was about 14, I guess, 13. 2 or 3 years later, she for a year and a half, they lived together. She attempted to make a model son out of me and to kill me in the process. Now that's you saying that in a kind

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of joking way, but when you say that, what do you mean? Like, why, why do you say she almost killed you? Well, I've been running wild she immediately again. For a schedule a routine. She, she was trying to help me, but she was had no experience

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with the child and the immediately she got out of position. And uh after about a year and a half. separated And But did you get sick or something? Did it have some very traumatic effect on you? No, no, no more than. Well, it did to this

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effect, uh. And I decided that I said the hell we call them. I know. You're gone about 3 days before the. Caught me and brought me home when I, when I come home when she was gone. And then later on I Dad married another woman. And

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how much and how. But See, I was about 14 I guess then. And she had two children of her own, both younger than I was a boy and a girl. And immediately she began to Drive a wedge between my, my dad and my two older sisters.

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And then the war come along and. I got kind of enthusiastic. All the glamour of the military, you're talking about World War One, yeah. So as soon as I was able to, I joined the Navy. And how old were you? Just age or were they, were

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they, were they accepting 16 years old? Did you accept 17 years old and I increased my age. You lied by 1 year. Uh, I, you haven't mentioned your sisters except in passing. Tell me about their ages, their names and. And uh uh I want to ask

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you to talk about them. I also want to ask just for the just for the hell of it. I don't know if it's an important question. uh, did you ever keep any kind of connection with the The That second family your fathers or they just all

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to some extent you did. OK, let's talk about your sisters first and then fit that in my my uh. I had two sisters. I know was 7.5 years older than I I I. She was 7.5 years older than I was. She, she married a. Young, she

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married a carpenter. They had, they lived 56 years together before he died and had a very. Agreeable, happy life, I would say even though they. Some problems Where did they live? What did they stay in that uh Illinois area or no, no, they moved to McAllen,

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Texas. And we're living back in Texas for many, many years. My other sister, she was 3.5 years old. What was her name? Helen, Helen. Helen married She, she married a young clerk in the lumberyard. Where were, where were they? Where were they were in the hometown

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of. They moved to Houston, he went to work as. And he went to high school, become an auditor. Went to work for American Maine finally become general manager of American Made. What is American Ma? What kind of business? That that was a flour mill, uh-huh. And

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uh was quite successful. He's been dead a number of years, she's still alive. You have one sister, one sister living in Houston. She is she's a somewhat old woman now. Almost 8. Are you in touch with her? Do you? Yes, I, I, we, we talk to

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each other about every 2 or 3 weeks. Do you get along? Do you like each other? Is there a bond of some kind? Yes, she visits out here occasionally and I visit, she, she has quite a large family. She does have a number of children grown.

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She had 2 children and 1 stepchild. Yeah, so she's got grandchildren and great grandchildren. She, she has been fairly successful. She operates the Helena Motel in Houston. And I think they have 125 rooms plus restrooms and she's still active in in the oh yeah, she, she

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still maintains control over she don't she's with the family. Recognize the fact that. Once she loses control of the first strings, but I don't tell them what happened. Still maintains the first thing. So she's she's, uh, were you, were you, were you estranged from your, uh,

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uh, sisters part of your life, or did you always manage to keep in good shape? My, my two sisters and I always uh there was a close bond between us. And uh but there was never too close a bond between my two sisters and my father,

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yes, and they had the same problem. That we had and of course they explained that he was just not confident to sit down as a father and talk to us. He, he, he meant well, but he didn't know what to do and he was busy otherwise.

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So, uh, I, I guess, uh. He, he, he later on talked to. My sisterlied Helen about his relationship with us. Her relationship with me and that he had made mistakes and so. He had regrets, yeah, apparently. But I, I, you know, I've known you and I

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had a sense, I knew that you were the son of a prominent physician and stuff, and I, yeah, I knew that of the hill. No, no, I knew that about you all the years I was hanging around. I never mentioned it. Well, you must have mentioned

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it to enough people so that I knew it. And so I, I had the sense of you being sort of a a black sheep's son, you know, and, and, uh, but it it wasn't anything like that it wasn't that you were angry with your father or

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or in conflict with him. It just it just is it wasn't easy for him to be personal and and close to you. But it wasn't, uh, doesn't sound to me like a real rebellion against her except to give about that grandma that that stepmother. Well, I,

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I, I never had any respect for her, and she, she, she attempted to drive that wedge in, but she went anyway. How long did she last when, by the way, did she, did she titill dad's death, so she really accomplished her desire, yeah, and she's still

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alive. She's she's in a uh in a uh. Home down in the little town of Palas. I've always had a tremendous amount of respect for my father. Uh, many times when I was a youngster. Uh, he sent me over to the grocery store to get a

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big bag of groceries and take out to somebody who was supposed to be sick, but the only thing wrong with the malnutrition. That that used to be a favorite stunt down there. The family didn't have anything to eat, no way to get it. One of them

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would get sick and call the man out. Dad would go out there and then he would send me.