00:00:01.200 - 00:00:26.969

Uh, uh. Done at his house in Oakland. Taking place on August 2, 1979. All right, Morris, I would like to go back and review. Uh, with you The basic outlines of your family. And I will ask you some specific questions about Some of the people in

00:00:26.969 - 00:00:45.599

your family, but first I'd like to get down what we call a family tree. All right. Now, you are one of how many children? 7 children. And were you the oldest or somewhere in the middle? All right. And who is older than you? 2 older brothers,

00:00:45.610 - 00:01:18.269

OK. Or rather I had two older brothers and sister, myself and uh. A younger brother and 2 younger sisters, a younger brother and younger sisters and your father um had how many brothers? 1 brother. And any sisters? One sister, OK. And your mother? Let's see she

00:01:18.269 - 00:02:00.949

had many sisters, uh, Self, Maria. 34. 4 And that's There were 4 sisters and uh and the brother, the brother died from a bite of a mad dog. And then grandfather married again, and he had 123 daughters. one To So by a second marriage, he had

00:02:00.949 - 00:02:26.970

3 daughters. On the first there were 5 of them marriages, 4 sisters and mother. OK. Now, when we talked last week, you mentioned that um Your grandfather and your grandmother on your father's side had a business in a town called what? In what in what town

00:02:26.970 - 00:02:48.460

in Russia? What could you, could you spell that M A N O V K A. Was that a large town or a small town, small town there were as many as 1000 families. I doubt it very much. And what kind of store was it? Well, it

00:02:48.460 - 00:03:21.320

was supposed to be a grocery where you bought sugar, no meat, uh, kerosene, salt. Uh Uh Well, not many vegetables. candies. Uh, things like that, no bread, you know, it was, uh, more of a wholesale. OK, and who were the customers in the store? Well, you

00:03:21.320 - 00:03:40.429

asked me something a child, I don't know people from other stores they'd have to that couldn't buy in big quantities if they came to grandmother, they bought, for instance, uh, maybe 5 pounds of sugar to sell or salt or whatever it was. Were the customers mostly

00:03:40.429 - 00:03:57.740

Jewish? Oh yeah, it's practically all practically all Jewish, and the people in the town were practically all Jewish, or was there a Jewish ghetto? Except on the market time as Sundays, peasants would come in and they'd also come and buy from other grandmothers. You said last

00:03:57.740 - 00:04:22.720

week that grandmother ran the store. that your grandmother ran the store was that? When was that? Well, grandfather was was paralyzed the time when I knew him. I do remember hearing people say that when grandfather used to come to the store, grandma used to chase him

00:04:22.720 - 00:04:41.839

out because he talked politics rather than tend to business. Do you remember what kind of politics your grandfather was interested in? No. OK, but he would talk. Yeah, I was, he died when I was about 8 years. I mean this is what I heard people say

00:04:41.839 - 00:05:01.450

that he talked politics and he had two sons and a daughter. And you mentioned that the family then moved from this town after grandfather died? No, no, not after he died, no, OK, uh, but that your father in growing up in this town was involved in

00:05:01.450 - 00:05:24.029

with a group of other young people in a study group. No, I wouldn't say a study group. Uh, all I remember is that when guests we gathered every week we had guests. They talked about different things, you know, politics and literature, and they read news magazines,

00:05:24.190 - 00:05:45.299

newspapers, uh, books like, uh, as I mentioned the last time, uh, uh, looking backwards by Edward Bellamy, uh, and some of the literate books were forbidden. Edward Bellamy's was not where did they get a copy of Edward Bellamy? I don't know, but must have subscribed to

00:05:45.299 - 00:06:02.720

it or bought it from abroad and you mentioned that they also got foreign magazines and those were mailed to you or they were brought to your house or you don't remember what language are the foreign magazines in? Mostly Jewish and Jewish Russian, and you say that

00:06:02.720 - 00:06:22.519

you remember distinctly that some of them came from America. Well, I don't, I wouldn't say that. I don't know, but I imagine that they must have been. Now your father and your mother, your mother came from a different town, and her father was a butcher of

00:06:22.519 - 00:06:43.239

sorts. He was, he had a miller mill and when after that was burned, he became a to banker I understand he loaned money out of interest. OK, and how did your parents meet? Do you know? How did they meet? How did they get together? I don't

00:06:43.239 - 00:06:58.070

know well in those days you had matchmakers, you know, and your mother came to live with your father in the town where your father was living. Now was that also pretty much standard procedure in those days that a woman would go to live in the town

00:06:58.070 - 00:07:17.429

where her husband's family was at that point it used to be just the other way around. I think that the husband would move with the wife's family. I think that was the case, but I may be wrong. OK. And then in this case, why did your

00:07:17.429 - 00:07:35.540

mom come to live with your father? Was that because he was staying in the family business. He had to do, well to do people and so was my. My mother's side well to do I mean by those standards and your father then continued to work in

00:07:35.540 - 00:07:59.679

the store. No, he did not work in the store as I from the time that I remember he was, he sold singer sewing machines and then a couple of years before we moved to Berdiev, he took up the uh. The uh Victor phonograph phonograph. OK. And

00:07:59.679 - 00:08:21.179

he would travel around to do that to sell those. Yeah, he traveled. He had an agent too. I remember he traveled, he had a carriage with two horses. The agent had a carriage with one horse. And they traveled to the towns around in the small towns,

00:08:21.190 - 00:08:43.440

villages, and then weekends they come home. OK, then you mentioned last week that there was a cousin on your mother's side. Who was a revolutionary of some sort. No, no, not on my mother's side. That was on my, uh, my first cousin on, uh, on father's

00:08:43.440 - 00:08:57.200

side, father's sister. OK, Father had a sister and a brother. What did, what did those two do? Well, the brother died before I was born as far as I know. So I don't know anything about the brother and his sister went off to Warsaw, was it?

00:08:57.559 - 00:09:21.909

No, his sister was married to a man in Odessa in Odessa. And then they got divorced. And uh and the son. At the age of 16 or so, he was a student at the gymnasium participated in a march in the desa. And he was arrested. Served

00:09:21.909 - 00:09:47.799

a year in jail. From there he went to Warsow. OK, do you remember approximately what year that was? That was in the first part of the century? Well, I'll go back. Let's see, 19, 198 we were in Berdier 197, 198, uh 76. It must have been

00:09:47.799 - 00:10:03.419

in 1956. OK. And do you, would you know what group he was a part of or what, what he was taking part in at that time? But this was in Odessa, which is a part of what? What is Odessa a part of Odessa is in Ukraine,

00:10:03.640 - 00:10:22.739

Ukraine on the Black Sea. It's a big city. And he was arrested and then as you mentioned last week, he was arrested and then arrested again. And then when he was led out of jail, he came to visit you. That's right. And you were approximately 7

00:10:22.739 - 00:10:38.940

or 8 or 9. No, when I was, we moved to Bev, I was 8. Could you spell Berdiza for me? I mean 7, Could you spell the name of that town? Berdi, B E R D I C H E V C H E V B. I

00:10:38.940 - 00:10:59.099

was, yeah, I was 7 years old because we were, I was 9 when we came to this country. Uh, no, what am I talking about? I'll take it back. I was 12 when we came to this country. I got my ears mixed up. 19 uh. We

00:10:59.099 - 00:11:18.880

came to this country in 199. I was 21. You were born in 1997 and we came to Berdi I was uh in 197, so I was 10, and then we then we stayed there two years in Berdi then um. Would you say something about the impression

00:11:18.880 - 00:11:46.070

that this cousin of yours made on you? Yeah, well. You know, after the 195 uh revolution, people that was still being talked about. I mean, and it, uh, and we as children. He played uh like firemen, policemen, and revolutionaries and when he came, he was dressed

00:11:46.070 - 00:12:06.200

in a in a cape and the way he wore his hat, you know, tilted different from the accepted norm, and if you looked up upon him as kid he was our hero. How did he come to stay with your father? I don't know. Um, was your

00:12:06.200 - 00:12:23.460

father, did your father welcome him? Yes, well, he was a nephew. And he came, he stayed with us after all. My grandmothers lived with us and he was our grand uh grandson, and he stayed with us. OK, where else could he stay in on those days,

00:12:23.799 - 00:12:40.479

especially family connections, you know, meant something, but he chose not to stay with his mother for any particular reason. Well, his mother was then. I don't know where she was. She remarried, I think, and maybe also in Warsaw, I think that's right, I think she married

00:12:40.479 - 00:13:00.929

a Warsaw man. But evidently they, that of course I cannot go into, I don't know, but. evidently did not get along together or maybe whatever the reason was. And then you mentioned that he was arrested while staying with you. That's right after he was no more

00:13:00.929 - 00:13:18.599

than about 2-3 months with us, and he was arrested again, and that was the last time we saw him. He was taken away. Yeah, he was taken away, and you never saw him again. No. Do you know what happened to him? Yeah, after we came to

00:13:18.599 - 00:13:35.669

this country, we learned, in fact, we heard from him that he escaped from Siberia and went to London. And that's the last we know of it. And then you never heard of him after that. Well, we heard from him in London. In fact, he, uh, sent,

00:13:35.710 - 00:13:56.820

uh, communicated regularly with father for a while, and he said he wanted to come to America and wanted help. His father sent him a ticket to us. A steam steamship ticket. And instead of him coming to America, someone else came on his ticket, so Father evidently

00:13:56.820 - 00:14:16.380

broke relations with him since then. After that, So do you think that he and your father were close politically and they didn't say. I don't know. You don't know. No, I don't think they were politically close, but, uh, no, because, as I said, he was concerned

00:14:16.380 - 00:14:38.580

with making a living. And they talked about uh. Radical things, you know, it was more or less sympathetic to the socialist movement as far as I know, as I said in this country. The uh He was, he was going to vote for, uh, I thought that

00:14:38.580 - 00:14:58.090

Debs ran for president. Well, if it wasn't Debs, must have been then, uh, whatever the candidate on the socialist ticket, he said that he was going to vote for. But instead he changed it to for Wilson because Wilson kept us out of the war, the lesser

00:14:58.090 - 00:15:18.809

evil. Let's, let's, uh, let's, we'll get to that. Oh yeah, he used to, he was a subscriber to the forwards at that time. The forwards was the socialist revolution the Jewish Daily Forward. The Jewish Daily Forward was yes. Now, um his decision to take the family

00:15:18.809 - 00:15:39.109

to America was based on his getting arrested over this nephew, is that right? He always wanted to go to America. In fact, he loved America even when we came to this country. That was he loved America. And uh, but after he was arrested for the 2

00:15:39.109 - 00:16:02.989

weeks. After Yova was arrested, they came at 2 o'clock in the morning and uh confiscated all the papers, letters, books, some books. And which was returned. And then after he was freed, he was warned by the head of the Zendarmes, uh, that he asked them first

00:16:02.989 - 00:16:23.070

how many children he had and the two oldest brothers were already beginning. To become of reaching an age that uh attracted them to uh the revolutionary movement, your brothers, yeah, my two older brothers, so he cautioned them again to warn them that they should see that

00:16:23.070 - 00:16:43.419

they prevent them from. Well anyway, yeah, that was the straw that broke the camel's back and, and he decided to come to America and that's what he did. Now do you remember anything of your education when you were in Badiza, your education, what it was like?

00:16:43.929 - 00:17:00.669

Education? Well, I took an exam for to enter school, but I didn't make it, I guess, or they or they didn't accept me because of quotas. And which school would this have been? This would have been a Russian school or a Russian Russian school. We studied

00:17:00.669 - 00:17:24.380

them by with a private tutor. They taught me Hebrew. And Russian was that unusual for those times for for young people to be taught Russian? The, uh, yeah, I spoke Russian and mostly Yiddish in the family, but for the children in the Magnavkov I talked Yiddish

00:17:24.380 - 00:17:43.109

indiev I talked with the children in Russian. Why, why that change? Because usually, uh, children were taught Yiddish. Yes, well, and we were in a Yiddish community and and all the children spoke Yiddish rather than Russian. But then why the switch to learning Russian? Why, why,

00:17:43.270 - 00:17:59.010

why did you make that switch? Why did you suddenly begin to take Russian? Oh, the, the children spoke mostly Russian, Russian, so that was a mix. It wasn't just the Jewish, even in the Jewish part, even the Jewish children. Well, that was customary to speak Russian.

00:17:59.260 - 00:18:18.810

Did that come out of the fact that the Russian government was at that time allowing Jewish people to go to the Russian schools? Well, that they, uh, they admitted by a certain number per percentages in the schools. Now my, my older sister did go to to

00:18:18.810 - 00:18:43.319

the Russian school in Magnovka, not in Berdi. Uh, but she was the only one. My two older brothers were sent to Odessa that stayed with some relative of my mother's. And to prepare them for the gymnasium. But they never entered the gymnasium either by the quarter

00:18:43.319 - 00:19:12.040

and then we because uh maybe because we left for America now I uh. I was taught all of us were taught in Yiddish, that is Hebrew and Russian in Magnevka and in Berne. not only taught arithmetic and things of that sort. And then you left for

00:19:12.040 - 00:19:30.540

America as a whole family and your grandmother came later, is that right? OK. Now what did your brothers enter school right when they got here when we came to this country. My two older brothers went to night school. How old were they about? Do you remember?

00:19:30.709 - 00:19:51.270

Let's see, the oldest must have been, let's see, I was about 16, and the younger one a year younger. They were both born Christmas Eve, a year apart. And your sister, your older sister, my oldest sister was born in September. Well, she's a year and a

00:19:51.270 - 00:20:03.800

half years older than I. And did she go to school when she came here? Yeah, we went to, she and I were in the same class when we came to this country and you came directly to Pittsburgh, is that right? You came to Pittsburgh. And how

00:20:03.800 - 00:20:25.579

did your father choose Pittsburgh? I just, well, uh, because, uh, on my mother's side she had already two sisters in this country. She had an uncle with his family in this country and, uh, and many, uh. Many, uh, lunch people from the region that came to

00:20:25.579 - 00:20:47.089

Pittsburgh. The Magnavka people that went to this country settled in New York. We have some distant relatives in New York, but Father came to the, I don't know, but, but after all, I was a youngster and and uh I know he came to Pittsburgh there from

00:20:47.670 - 00:21:08.020

directly from this country, and that was in 190909 November, and he came with a reasonable amount of money. Yeah. Tell me a little bit about your mother. But my mother, where does she fit in all of this? Well, I don't know just what you want to

00:21:08.020 - 00:21:24.540

know about her it sounds like, for example, that your father was in some sense, but my mother was inclined the same way. She was, that was the custom which was the custom that people would be that a wife would be if that's right. I mean it

00:21:24.540 - 00:21:44.709

turned out to be so. Uh, I know for instance in this country too. She uh She always went along with the children, you know, the, uh, in the radical side, but, uh, how, how do you know that? Well, give me an example of when, when we

00:21:44.709 - 00:22:05.849

talked about things, well, of course she was imbued with the American democracy just like Father, but leaning towards the socialists, for instance, she too read the uh. The forts and later on that she would be read books, you know, that uh socialistic books and uh but

00:22:05.849 - 00:22:27.050

that's as far as she went. Now as far as the Soviet revolution. I never talked to her much about it, but she seemed to be leaning. Well, in 1905, they were both pleased at the revolutionary attempt. I imagine so. Um, do you think if had it

00:22:27.050 - 00:22:47.400

been successful that they would have stayed in Russia? That I can't say, um, I imagine they would have if uh if things would have eased up, you know, for the politically for Jews. What um, do you remember your mother talking to you directly about the future

00:22:47.400 - 00:23:04.510

or about what she expected from you or what she expected from the kids? No, we never talked that were left. We chose whatever we wanted to become ourselves and we chose our own courses. Did your father talk to you about that? No, all he was anxious

00:23:04.510 - 00:23:20.729

for us is to get an education. That was one another reason why he wanted to come to this country free schools and uh no discrimination as far as he knew. And the Jews had a chance to go to school and when we came to this country,

00:23:21.099 - 00:23:42.489

all of us did go. In fact, father and mother also went to evening school to study English. OK. So had had they as a family suffered under any programs directly? No, never. Only thing. No, not the Magna, not in Berdiev I remember one time, uh, my

00:23:42.489 - 00:24:04.369

younger sis, younger sister next to me. And uh father gave us I remember the first movie we saw in fact the only movie we saw in Russia, my sister and I, it happened they gave one ticket for for the brother and a sister, so Father gave

00:24:04.369 - 00:24:21.930

us the money and he gave it and we, uh, went to the movie. And saw an American movie, you know, one of these slapstick, uh, movies where a wheel ran off, uh fell off a wheel, uh, of a cart I remember and they kept rolling and

00:24:21.930 - 00:24:43.930

rolling people running after it and so on this kind of a movie. And on the way back, The Cossacks were attacking the Jews. They were on horseback and they would to whoever they could and we ran into the there was a sort of a park like

00:24:43.930 - 00:25:01.219

in the street and we ran away in that park where they weren't where they Cossacks weren't. And that's that's I have a vague memory of that. That's as much. OK, so let's go, let's pick up in Pittsburgh. I, I just want to find out, um, your

00:25:01.219 - 00:25:22.040

father's brother died young, so he didn't come to America. His sister was in Odessa. Did she ever come? No, she, no, the sister was married in Barsow. She married the 2nd time, 2nd and then a 3rd time that, uh, and father and grandmother used to come

00:25:22.040 - 00:25:45.420

correspond with her. Uh, after father's and grandmother's death, of course we lost track of her when I was in Moscow. I don't know just how. I got to somehow or other, uh, yes, she had a son with a with a third marriage, a young boy, and

00:25:45.550 - 00:26:06.420

I don't remember, uh, he came to me. Uh, I have no, I have no recollection, and through him I found his mother. She didn't live with the with the third husband at that time and she was under miserable conditions and have a home there. As conditions

00:26:06.420 - 00:26:26.930

were. And that's about uh affected if you read those letters I left some money for after I left the Soviet Union, we did not communicate and that's all. OK, now your mother had some brothers who came to Pittsburgh as well, not brothers, sisters. The brother died,

00:26:26.979 - 00:26:46.760

you know, as a young, young man, but she had, uh, married sisters. And unmarried sisters that came to this country. What did they do? Did they work? No, the women didn't work in the old country. They were well to do. I mean, uh, considering the conditions

00:26:46.760 - 00:27:12.780

there, uh, they didn't work now, you know, only one of these, only one of the sys. Yeah, uh, Yeah, one of the younger, younger sister of the first marriage came with us to this country. She was, uh, she was the last 10 yeah, but the second

00:27:12.780 - 00:27:32.810

oldest sister, the one next to mother, she remained in Russia all her life and she died there. Uh, the, the other sisters came here and then we brought the next, the last sister. Then there were the three sisters. One of them was married while we were

00:27:32.810 - 00:27:56.920

away. And the two younger ones unmarried came to this country. Together with my grandfather. And our and my married and our married sister's husband, sister's husband. It was quite wealthy, came from a wealthy family, I mean really wealthy. Is he the one that started the cigar

00:27:56.920 - 00:28:15.729

store? the one that started the cigar store. You said you had an uncle who ran a cigar cigar factory. Oh no, no, that's the first, no, no, those were the people that came first. Oh, OK, yeah. Now, um, you say your, your grandfather on your mother's

00:28:15.729 - 00:28:35.890

side came to this country. Did he come with his wife and the wife and kids? Oh yeah, one sister, one of my grandmother's sisters, the, the, the 4th 1. No, she was in she was left in the, in the Soviet Union. I brought her here. That's

00:28:35.890 - 00:28:55.150

the one that I got that's the one that I married. OK, got it. Alright, we'll get to that story later. Um, we'll keep everybody waiting up now, um. So then let's start with you coming to America now, and I'd still like to know a little more

00:28:55.150 - 00:29:15.770

about the relationship between your mother and your father. You know how the household chores were divided, how the decisions were made, um, how they talked about bringing up children, that kind of thing. Well, the mother ran the house, ran the business and uh. They got along

00:29:15.770 - 00:29:41.310

very well. I never heard any uh. And the arguments between them. Uh, as far as I know, mother went along with father's ideas. There was no. Nothing of significant uh and uh. Well, they were and both of them went to school when they came here to

00:29:41.310 - 00:30:01.109

well they just went to evening school there for about a year or so to just to learn the language and they both learned English. They both learned English more or less very spoke, uh, father spoke a better English, I think no mother later on, but the

00:30:01.109 - 00:30:20.130

children spoke English. No, she spoke, uh. I wouldn't call it a very good English, but uh OK, so let's start now a little bit with the schooling that you, you had. You started right into school when as soon as we came 2nd or 3rd day, the

00:30:20.130 - 00:30:40.640

younger children, in other words, my youngest, my older sister and the younger sister enrolled in school. The two, the two youngest ones were still children. One was a year old when we came to this country. The other one, the brother, was 3 years old. So of

00:30:40.640 - 00:31:00.880

course they did not go to school, but the 3 of us entered school immediately, and uh my older sister and I were in the same class all the time. The younger sister was a year behind us. And um And your two older brothers, they were older

00:31:00.880 - 00:31:18.560

brothers went to night school, then they, uh they worked during the day. I worked in a cigar factory and at this time your father was working in a Stoy factory. That's right until about the end of the 199, the end of the year when he was

00:31:18.560 - 00:31:31.449

laid off, he opened his own shop and I helped out. I was a, I worked at my uncle's factory. Now which uncle is this? That was the first the.