00:00:10.960 - 00:00:31.210

41234 This is Harvey Schwartz. I'm um with Paul Pinsky. I'm in San Francisco. It is October 24, 1995. This oral history is being done for the labor archives at San Francisco State University and um. Mr. Pinsky, where were you born and when were you born? Can

00:00:31.210 - 00:01:04.330

you give me a little about your background? I was born in November. 2012 in Harbin. Manchuria, which was part of China. The portion The of the. The city where I was born was. Or Russian extraterritorial area. which the Russians got from the Manchu Empire. Uh, For

00:01:04.350 - 00:01:29.550

her gra as a as a gratitudes. For helping Uh, China to push back the Japanese victors after they kicked the hell out of Chinese in 1895. So the Tsarist government negotiated with the mature empress. To build a railroad directly connecting Moscow and Vladivostok, going through Manchuria

00:01:29.550 - 00:01:51.320

rather than going out and out to Lake Baikal. And they gave Russia extraterritorial rights. Of 10 miles on each side of the tracks. And which was until the revolution was Russian civilian government, Russian police, Russian courts. And at one time, especially after the revolution, the The

00:01:51.320 - 00:02:09.610

Caucasian population of Harbin was over 100,000. But I was born before the revolution. And I don't know how it'd be people were Caucasians were there before I, uh, when I was born, but it's considerably less than 100,000. The whole, the entire city of Harbin at that

00:02:09.610 - 00:02:27.880

time had about half a million people, 400,000 of whom were Chinese living in a in a what we call Chinese section of town, and the Europeans lived in the European section of town which was called Priesttenor means the harbor area. The harbor area was, was called

00:02:27.880 - 00:02:49.520

harbor area because it was the harbor for the big, uh, navigable river Sunguri, which was a large tributary to Amur. And uh That's where I was born. I'm giving you the history. How did your parents come to be there? My father came to Harbin the turn

00:02:49.520 - 00:03:12.310

of the century to work for his brother-in-law. Who was uh has contracts to provide. Food for the European cruises which were engaged in the construction of the Chinese Eastern Railroad. And uh My uncle lives in Siberia for a number of years and he heads fisheries in

00:03:12.310 - 00:03:39.580

Kamchatka. Sending barrels of herrings from Kamchatka to Russia. And uh Yeah, I guess, uh He was involved in other. Sure. Food, food business and he brought my, my father to work, to work as a clerk. Um, OK. I don't know if I got your parents' name,

00:03:40.070 - 00:04:06.010

names, the names of your parents. My father's name was George. And my mother's name was Clara. OK, um, in 2007. My father was visiting Mitoppe. In Ukraine where he was born. And returning back to Harbin, he met my mother on the train. On the Trans-Siberian Railroad.

00:04:09.370 - 00:04:30.370

Driving from Minitopa to Harbin, and she was driving to Minitopa to join her brother and accom accompanied his bride. So they went on the train, I guess that's how. Right. It started. They were married in 2007. Did they have any, um, they were both from, from

00:04:30.370 - 00:04:55.130

Russia, Ukraine, from Ukraine, from Ukraine. Um, they were born in the same city. Did they have any Political inclinations? They were not political activists. And my mother was a business person. She was not interested in politics, as a matter of fact. They were both anti-communists. Did

00:04:55.130 - 00:05:29.640

not support the Soviet regime obviously because they were business people. Um So how was it growing up in in Harbin for you? Uh Went to a Russian school. Graduated What they call the first. Uh, community commercial. Which it is your school. And, uh, Before that, uh,

00:05:31.440 - 00:05:52.670

My mother was busy. In business and she couldn't spend much time taking care of us, so. We were saddled with the governess for a number of years and uh growing up was great, you know. With friends or we had uh. All kinds of uh Activities in

00:05:52.670 - 00:06:16.210

which I was involved, particularly when I got older, I, I was a Jewish nationalist. And uh started with some other guys, they An organization to discuss Jewish history, Jewish culture, which later on led to the organization of uh a Zionist youth organization, which was uh sponsored

00:06:16.210 - 00:06:40.490

by the revisionist Zionist, the Jabotinsky Group, the right-wing part of the Zionist called Britz Trumpeler. I was one of the founders of Britz Trumpeler and Harbin. I was the secretary of the staff. And that was done in 1928, 1929 I left Harbin. Uh, go to, School

00:06:40.490 - 00:07:05.620

in British Columbia, Canada. Uh My purpose of going there was to study agriculture. So that I would become a scientific farmer and devote my time being a scientific farmer but migrating to, to Palestine. I see. Well, things did not work out that way and I, but

00:07:05.680 - 00:07:22.960

before we go on, it was 1929. Um, how did you come to become a Jewish nationalist? What made you go in that direction or get that inclination and you're in Harbin, China. Why, why do, why, why go in that direction? Well, there were the, the Russian

00:07:23.760 - 00:07:47.870

population in Harbin. Was, uh, consisted of two major groups. One was the reds, The Reds were there because uh they were working on the railroad in 1920. Let's go back to a little history, OK, sure, sure, sure, until 1918 or 1919, the railroad was run by

00:07:47.870 - 00:08:12.870

Russia and China. The Chinese guy was chairman of the board, but the general manager, the guy who ran the operation, was a Russian. After the After the revolution. The uh French bank, which financed the construction of the railroad, put in its own, uh, you know, manager.

00:08:14.590 - 00:08:42.440

That changed in 1924 when China recognized the Soviet Union. And then the Soviets became Co-managers was a Chinese as a railroad. So because they would be hiring only people who were uh. Who were, uh, A communist inclined. Uh, because, uh, The railroad employed several 1000 people,

00:08:43.070 - 00:09:01.920

both clerical and, uh, blue collar workers, machinists, and, uh, all kinds of other technical people. They were primarily Russians. And the other group were the refugees we call them white Russians, of course, and there was a third group which was called the radishes. They were red

00:09:01.920 - 00:09:28.340

outside and white inside. So the white Russians organized gangs. Which used to specialize in beating the hell out of the Jewish kids. I see. And, uh, Our school was primarily Jewish students, although we had, uh, you know, a number of Russians and, Other nationalities such as

00:09:28.340 - 00:09:46.860

Koreans, starters, but uh And uh one day I was coming back from a skating rink to this which was about 2 blocks away from our house and uh A gang accosted me and beat the hell out of me. So we decided, OK, we'll do something about

00:09:46.880 - 00:10:02.250

it. And we knew that we were, we were Jewish and so, so we learned something and also we decided we got to learn how to take care of ourselves, you know, in order to, to, to, uh, reciprocate the treatment which we were getting from the Russians,

00:10:02.790 - 00:10:19.140

the white Russian guys, the cops would never do anything about it. I just looked at the other way around. That's how we would get organized and we used to go out and uh. And beat the hell out of the Russians. And at one time, you know,

00:10:19.160 - 00:10:44.110

it was a truce because we had some rough guys on our side too. Sure. Um, that was one of the, uh, reasons, and the other reason is because I was. I was raised in the uh. In the Jewish traditional Orthodox home and my father was very

00:10:44.110 - 00:11:05.010

religious. And we had the Jewish. Teachers and where they. Who taught us Jewish history and the other one and Hebrew and the other teacher read us teach us how to pray, you know, read the prayer books of course rabbe we used to call them. And uh

00:11:05.240 - 00:11:28.460

so that kind of atmosphere uh uh with the uh. Definite, uh Understanding that The Jews were Jews and the Russians were Russians, and you know it was inevitable that you Yeah, it makes sense. It makes sense, but most, most of us became Jewish nationalists. I had

00:11:28.460 - 00:11:54.610

no trouble with organizing the group and By that time I was already what uh. Junior or in high school. It sounds about right. And um How did you come to the decision to go to British Columbia in 1929? Well Uh Couple of reasons. One of my

00:11:54.610 - 00:12:19.060

friends, uh, one of my schoolmates went to, to British Columbia to study agriculture. And, uh, Then I couldn't get into the United States at that time. So, uh, British Columbia was the closest. Area and uh so. That's how I kind of came to British Columbia primarily

00:12:19.060 - 00:12:40.100

because uh. A friend of mine was there already. And, uh, How come you couldn't get into the United States initially? Well, I could have gotten on a student visa, but I didn't want to get on a student visa. I wanted to. Oh, I didn't try. But

00:12:40.100 - 00:13:03.300

when I came back to Harbin in 1931 for summer vacation, My mother confronted me with a proposition that uh Uh, since I was born in China. And I was eligible for the Chinese quota even though there was an oriental exclusion. The, the, the exclusion consisted of

00:13:03.300 - 00:13:26.130

lowering the number of Visas allowed for migration immigration from China into the United States to 100 a year. And by 1931, The people who were eligible because of their waiting list to come to the United States could not meet the new requirements which the states require,

00:13:26.170 - 00:13:43.480

and that's financial responsibility. They require a certain amount of money to be. To be taken with you. At that time, I think it was 1931, it was about $5000 which is a lot of money. Well, fortunately, my parents were able to show financial responsibility and also

00:13:43.880 - 00:13:59.090

agreement to support me while I was going to school. So, uh, I, I was given the immigration visa and she insisted that I take the immigration visa so that I could become an American citizen. We had no citizenship at all. We were not the Soviet citizens

00:13:59.090 - 00:14:16.830

and we were not, you know, Russian citizens because those no Russia. We were, we had a status of emigrates, you know, people without the country. So she insisted that we had that they stay. In the United States long enough. To become a citizen, did you know

00:14:16.830 - 00:14:35.660

English at that time? Very little, just high school courses and like, I learned, I flunked out most of the courses I first took at the British Columbia. I passed German and I passed math. But uh where were you studying at in British Columbia? Where were you

00:14:35.660 - 00:14:57.760

studying in British Columbia when you were between 29 and 31? University of British Columbia. Oh, UBC OK OK yes that was the only university in those days makes sense. Yes, I guess that's right. I was about 222-300 students when I was attending. Uh, EBC and uh.

00:14:59.150 - 00:15:18.740

Do you know why you were good at German? It's kind of an interesting. I see. That's interesting. And of course, I guess you spoke Russian fluently. That's right. Did you speak Chinese, some Chinese swear words, the important ones, the important swear words. OK. Well, there was

00:15:18.740 - 00:15:45.180

very little relationship between the Uh, the Caucasian community and the Chinese community, the just, you know, the people, the Chinese who worked for, for us either the my father's factory or, you know, as servants at home were, you know. Coolies, sure, that's the attitude. Although in

00:15:45.180 - 00:16:08.960

his business my father dealt with a number of Chinese business people. But again it was strictly a business relationship. There was no social relationship. Um OK, in 1931, Um, you, uh. You went back home And That was an important year. The Japanese invaded China, commenced to

00:16:08.960 - 00:16:25.430

invade China in 31 after I left, after you left. Did you, um, When you left, you went back to, you went back to, well, you went to North America, I. I first went back to British Columbia to pick up my things, you know, and then I

00:16:26.100 - 00:16:45.950

Took a ship from British Columbia, Admiral lines, I remember it's a. And came to, to Berkeley. Actually, I was uh destined to go to Cornell. But when I got to Berkeley, some of my friends from Harbin told me it was silly to go into. Cornell, cold

00:16:45.950 - 00:17:01.500

weather and what that I should say. In Berkeley, so I didn't have much chance because the semester was starting in 2 days. So I made up my mind quickly and uh submitted my papers and I was admitted to UC without any problems. I see. They gave

00:17:01.500 - 00:17:23.320

me credit for the credits I received at UBC. To boots so that I did not start as a freshman, I started out as a sophomore. OK, um. Meanwhile, what happened to the, to your parents back in China? Uh, my mother came here in 1937 on the

00:17:23.320 - 00:17:47.690

visitor's visa, but she had no intention of going back. She, she was agitating my father to leave China and uh To come to the United States. Even though they, you know, they couldn't get any immigration visas, but, uh, immediately, but, uh, She came here in '37.

00:17:48.570 - 00:18:03.280

And uh by that time I became a citizen, I was able to Bring her in, you know, as, as, as, as, as she was my mother. She had to travel to British Columbia to Vancouver for a few days and then she was given a visa in

00:18:03.280 - 00:18:21.950

Vancouver. My father refused to come here because he didn't think that uh he could get kosher meat. In America, in America, it's wonderful, but he was, you know, his styles were in Harvard. He was a young man when he came there. He was active in the

00:18:21.950 - 00:18:40.240

synagogue and, and he just did not want to come. But she gave him an ultimatum that either he comes or because she wasn't gonna come anymore. So he came back here in May '41. He came here in May 41, which is fortunate because it was just

00:18:40.260 - 00:19:00.060

a few months before Pearl Harbor. I'll be, uh, he came here on the, on the immigration visa because we, you know, both my brother and I were citizens by that time and uh. Hm. But he stayed there until the very last day running his, his business.

00:19:00.670 - 00:19:16.890

Did he, did he have any difficulties with the Japanese army because it was coming into China after 37? Well, my mother had difficulty with them because, you know, they were. Getting involved in business. My mother was a, a business person and uh Uh, she didn't like

00:19:16.890 - 00:19:43.740

to have Japanese partners. I see. OK. OK. And, uh, you know, She was involved in some lumber business because she had some kind of a, I don't recall exactly the details of the thing. The Chinese government gave her some concessions for To Uh To, uh, harvest,

00:19:43.760 - 00:20:01.630

uh, trees, uh, to make lumber, and the Japanese wanted in the goddamn deal anyway, so. By that time she wasn't feeling too well. She just gave up and get the hell out of there. I see. So you got here in 31. I got to, I got

00:20:01.630 - 00:20:18.020

to Berkeley in August 1931. What was UC Berkeley like at that time for you? Well, we had about 12,000 students. It was after UBC. It was a huge university, of course. I stayed at the International House when I first came to Berkeley and You're familiar with

00:20:18.020 - 00:20:41.880

the International House. So I stayed there off and on for most of my Sojourn in Berkeley. I was the head of the Russian speaking group at the The I house and uh. Uh The campus was, uh, still, you know, pretty spread out. There's not as many

00:20:41.880 - 00:21:03.570

buildings as it has now and uh. There was the, the university start stopped at Cedar Gate. Anything uh beyond Cedar Gate was uh was uh was what was it. College Avenue and uh there were stores there. There were, there was uh A hotel called the Varsity.

00:21:05.140 - 00:21:24.790

Which later on was taken over by the university. They moved the administration building from uh The California Hall, which was a small building next to the Bold Hall. And uh The real, of course, the growth of the university didn't suddenly until after World War II. Um,

00:21:25.090 - 00:21:42.960

what did you major in at Berkeley? And that was in the department of poultry husbandry, you know, still trying to become a scientific farmer, but I became interested in, in, in, in, in biochemistry, so I was. I was, uh, That was my, I made you interested.

00:21:44.360 - 00:22:09.800

After I left. Berkeley, I Continued. It was 1935, it was still. Heart of the depression and uh I got a job with Swift and Company in Modesto. In their laboratory to disturbances. To, uh, make butter for the germination of the milk they were buying from the

00:22:09.800 - 00:22:36.180

farmers and you know looking at their Poultry egg purchases. And then, uh, They, uh, wanted me to also go on buying trips and I, I didn't drive a car. So they started learning to drive a car and uh I almost had an accident driving a small

00:22:36.180 - 00:22:55.760

truck. So they decided to test my vision, which was not, was better than it is now, which was never too great. And they said they couldn't employ me for two reasons. Number 1 reason was that uh. Uh, I asked for wage salary increase. I was getting

00:22:55.760 - 00:23:13.100

30 cents an hour working. Imagine that 35, 30 cents an hour. You were getting 30, 30, 30 cents cents an hour for a 60 hour week. I was getting $18 a week. Working 6 days a week. Mhm. They said that was of the attitude of a

00:23:13.240 - 00:23:35.460

future executive. I didn't know I was gonna become a future executive. And then they were concerned about my vision, so I lost the job there. And, uh, Came back to to the Bay Area short for a short time I worked. For Del Monte or. Uh, let's,

00:23:36.790 - 00:23:59.130

California Packing Company, they had a vitamin laboratory. In Richmond And, uh, I gained, I was, I was getting more money than I was getting $21 a week. And 35, you know, there was a fever of organization, the waterfront organization, the general strike and whatnot. So we,

00:23:59.260 - 00:24:22.450

we some of us felt that we should join the union. That's interesting. OK. And I tried to organize the union. And uh I got fired. What union did you try to organize? Well, the CIA union at the time, Confederation of Architects, Engineers, Chemists and Technicians. OK,

00:24:23.350 - 00:24:42.930

were they in CIO or AFL at that time? OK, and what year would this have been then? Uh, latter part of 35, the latter part of 35, OK. And I was blacklisted. I couldn't get a job. Uh, it was tough enough to get a job anyway,

00:24:43.060 - 00:25:02.720

you know. Yes. So, nobody wanted to have a goddamn thing to do with a labor agitator. Can you, can you, um, And I was no labor agitator. I did no damn thing about it, about labor other than the fact that, uh, you know, you couldn't escape

00:25:02.720 - 00:25:24.590

the, the. The fever, the turmoil, the excitement of the general strike in 34, you know. My brother and I were used to work weekends at Crystal Palace Market and uh come to San Francisco, you know, and uh. See the picket lines on the um uh you

00:25:24.590 - 00:25:46.390

know, when you get off the ferry building you see picket lines all over the embarcadero. No, we still saw the, Scabs that are going through which would be. Which were, Engaged in a Scuffle with the with the strikers. And then uh she says it was difficult

00:25:46.390 - 00:26:09.240

to get a job. I had a friend. Who recommended me for a job as a since I, I was heavy. In statistical trading as part of the My preparations, I thought I would go for my PhD degree. And uh So I, I was interested in statistics

00:26:09.240 - 00:26:27.750

and uh. He told me that uh The Pacific Coast Labor Bureau, which was run by the name of Henry Melnickoff, you ever, of course, yeah, very famous name. Well, he would because he was very much involved with this ILWU in the early days. Uh, they, they

00:26:27.750 - 00:26:51.160

had the uh. The guy who was head of the research department fellow name of Maurice Gersonson. Excuse me, sure. Gershtenson later became uh Director of uh Labor and and information research for the state of California. And uh he hired me as a statistician to work to

00:26:51.160 - 00:27:07.320

help him. And I became interested in that in in in in in that work, and he, he was a very good teacher. Uh So I didn't not have a full-time job there, but I was working there. 2-3 times, uh, 2-3 days a week and on a

00:27:07.320 - 00:27:35.320

part-time basis and was just very much enjoyed, you know, the excitement of preparations for arbitrations for contract negotiations and uh uh and at the same time I tried to continue organizing the union. And, uh, Of the architects, engineers, chemists, and technicians. So by 1937, 37 I

00:27:35.320 - 00:27:55.480

became the 6th president of the union. You became uh of the FAACT right, district president. We had the chat, we had the locals in Los Angeles. And Denver, we're trying to organize a group in Seattle and I was trying to organize the Bay Area. I was,

00:27:55.560 - 00:28:22.830

I was instrumental in organizing. Shell Oil Company. Shell development, which is a big research laboratory. In Emeryville. And it's very interesting that one of the fellows who tried to help me organize the The chemist and physicist of Shell Development was Robert Oppenheimer. Amazing. As a matter

00:28:22.830 - 00:28:40.070

of fact, the first meeting with the people from Shell Development was at Oppenheim's house in Berkeley when he invited those fellows to meet with me to discuss the possibility of organizing the union. Oppenheim Wasn't, you know, for the hell of it, he joined the union. He

00:28:40.070 - 00:29:01.360

was a member of the union. I'll be darned. And, uh, I I don't exactly recall how I met Oppenheim, but Either he contacted me or he con you know I know what he did, he contacted Lou Goldblatt. Who was the secretary treasurer. Of the CIO Industrial

00:29:01.360 - 00:29:19.800

Union Council, it's the state council. And We'll go with gave him my name. And he contacted me and he said he was. Interested in seeing whether or not these fellows could be organized because some of them were his friends and they were complaining about some problems

00:29:19.800 - 00:29:42.800

that they had and whatnot and uh. So that's how it happened. That's that's that's really interesting. How, how, how did you go about organizing these guys at that time? Well, my first organization. Uh, successful organization was a small plant here in San Francisco. Where the local

00:29:42.820 - 00:30:00.030

local 6 had a contract. It was consolidated the chemical company in the old days is known as uh. Uh, and a different name. And Gene Patton, who was the president of the local those days. Introduced me to one of the chemists. There are about 3 or

00:30:00.030 - 00:30:17.030

4 chemists working in the plant there. And uh I was able to sign them up, organize them. How did you approach them? I approached them with the proposition that the union could negotiate a contract for them that would have the backing of Local 6, you know,

00:30:17.750 - 00:30:34.680

and they would, they would wind up with better conditions, job security, and the usual spiel that you use in trying to organize. Uh, workers, whether they're professional or not professional, but anyway. So there were 3 out of 4 signed up, you know, Fort Worth came along

00:30:34.680 - 00:30:53.400

later on. And you know, since it was my first contract, uh. Uh, I Together by that time I had some training in the labor bureau. I drew up. A contract that you know had everything including the chickens, the kitchen sink, you know, we went, met with

00:30:53.400 - 00:31:11.990

the management. The guy who was the president of the company was a guy named Milton Haas. And uh I was negotiating with him. He was like. Character And uh we showed them the contract and uh. He looked at the contractor and says, get the hell out

00:31:11.990 - 00:31:27.860

of here. He just threw us out of his office. Even though by the time it was there we, we, we, we, we want, we did not win the certification, we just, you know, went on the basis of where the majority. So, I went to see,