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January 17, 1991. Interview with Dick Libus. The um labor archives is very interested in having an interview with you on record there because they feel that you've made a great contribution to the labor movement here. And uh I thought I'd like to uh uh start out

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with uh where you uh lived in your youth and how you came to be involved with the labor union. Well, all right. I, I'm one of the few, uh, native San Franciscans around, I guess, uh, as was my father and his father. Uh, my mother came,

00:01:06.930 - 00:01:25.940

was born all the way down in San Jose, 50 miles from here. So, uh, all my roots are right here in, uh, the in the San Francisco Bay Area. I went to the local schools and went to the University of California in Berkeley majoring in economics.

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Graduated in the depths of the depression in 1934 when one was lucky to get a. Transient job at 30 cents an hour which I did for a while down in Fresno at the raisin packing plant. And through a combination of just, uh, chance and I guess

00:01:48.890 - 00:02:13.660

good luck, I heard about a, uh, graduate, Fellowship at the University of Hawaii and even though I had no Intention of going back to college after getting my bachelor's degree. I It's quite interested in the notion of uh. Fellowship in the, at the University of Hawaii

00:02:13.660 - 00:02:35.170

and I applied for it and succeeded in getting the appointment. Which paid, as I recall, $40 a month for 10 months, so $400 a year. Which was adequate at that time, uh, to have a comfortable enough, uh, living. I stayed two years there and got a

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master's degree at the University of Hawaii. In economics and I wrote a thesis on the history of organized labor in Hawaii from the date of annexation to the passage of the National Labor Relations Act. By some considered to be very radical at the time to the

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point where one of the regions of the University of Hawaii wouldn't allow it to be on the shelves, which I thought was quite an honor. I mean, I always had an interest in labor and I think any. Fairly intelligent person in the early 1930s, uh. would

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normally consider that times needed some changing and I was influenced by some labor economics classes at the At the at Berkeley which were. Given by some outstanding professors. I remember, particularly Charles Gulick, who was a professor of labor economics, and he had a great following against

00:03:38.670 - 00:03:58.320

the young, uh, among the youngsters who, and I think he influenced a lot of people along the lines that the trade union movement was one of the, uh, Better vehicles for uh getting some social change in this country. I know he certainly had that influence on

00:03:58.340 - 00:04:23.610

me. So after. Going to the University of Hawaii for a couple of years where incidentally I met my wife to whom I'm still married after 50+ years, 52 years I guess, uh. I continued an interest in academia to the point where I enrolled in a doctorate

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program at Berkeley. And did get a PhD in economics, uh, in 1942. In between then I had a. Uh, teaching job at the, well, I'm at university in Salem, Oregon from 1939 through 1941. And then the war broke out in December of '41. Uh, I was

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just a thesis away from finishing my doctorate, which I managed to do in between, uh, working at the shipyards in Richmond where I worked for. Oh. Year and a half. My thesis was on the Pacific Coast longshore labor, uh, which involved, uh, Getting well acquainted with

00:05:17.880 - 00:05:48.550

the, uh, ILWU, the International Longshoremen Warehouses Union, headed by Harry Bridges. And, um, I spend most of my efforts on that and, Studying their dispute procedures which involved arbitration cases, uh, particularly the coast-wide arbitrator at that time was a fine gentleman named Wayne Morse who Subsequently

00:05:48.550 - 00:06:11.130

became a United States senator from Oregon and at that time was a law professor at the University of Oregon. Uh, and in between, That position and his senatorial uh post. He was also during the war the uh chairman of the National Labor Relations Board. I don't

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see, As I was working on that program, um, and sitting in on some of the, Arbitration cases that were going on because the waterfront was a very turbulent. Workplace at that time, uh, I got acquainted with, The head of what was then called the Pacific Coast

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Labor Bureau, A man named Henry Melnico, long dead, but, uh, he had founded this organization to provide economic counsel to trade unions and Was had played a big role in the arbitration following the general strike in San Francisco in 1934 and was the economic council for

00:06:59.540 - 00:07:26.860

the Longshoremen's Union. And as we got acquainted while I was doing some research on my thesis, um, I wangled a job offer out of him and became a staff member of the labor bureau. And uh that was 1943. So, uh, At that time there was the

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war was on and uh. That had a tremendous impact on what was happening in the labor movement throughout the country. Both the AFL and the CIO, which were separate organizations at that time, had given a no strike pledge, and the condition of the no strike pledge

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was that any disputes would be resolved as expeditiously as possible, and there was created a a war labor board. Uh, in fact, I think I misspoke earlier when I said that Wayne Morris was the chair of the National Labor Relations Board. He was the chair of

00:08:07.050 - 00:08:31.590

the War Labor Board. Maybe that can be amended in there someplace, uh. And this war labor board concept was a tripartite arrangement that was at every level there was a government and a management and a labor representative. And all of the Settlements that were worked out

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between labor and management have to be submitted to a tripartite panel for approval and any disputes. Went before a tripartite panel acting as an arbitration board and so the typical union. In which the leadership had just risen from the ranks with no particular, uh, technical skills

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other than in their own craft or occupation. Uh, looked around for some professional help to assist them in this great bureaucracy that had sprung up, and that was one of the things that I was involved in and uh. At the National Labor Bureau in helping unions

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go through this maze of getting government approvals and representing them in arbitration cases and so on as well as negotiating with employers. And uh out of that, uh, you know, one thing leads to another. One of the unions, uh, that I was assigned to work with

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and did very closely was what was then called the Building Service Employees Union and AFL Union. Maybe I could say a little bit about that as a footnote here on. Um-hum. Just what's happening. This union, the Building Service Employees Union, is a very interesting, uh, organization.

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It was started in 1921, mainly in Chicago by uh janitors. And um At that time, there were a few other janitorial groups that had been organized even before the International was founded. One of them was in San Francisco, uh, Or the janitors have a charter. Signed

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by Samuel Gompers in 1914, I believe, going way back then when a group of San Francisco janitors formed a union and There was no national body to which they could affiliate. There was a system at that time to apply directly to the AFL for what was

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then called a federal charter. And uh the San Francisco janitors had a federal charter signed by Samuel Gompers setting them up as a union. But in any event, the national union had its birthplace in Chicago. And Over a rather long period of time, had affiliates in

00:11:12.050 - 00:11:33.740

most of the major cities that sprung up, uh. And mainly the membership was janitors. Uh, a lot of people always referred to this organization as the janitors union. Uh, I'm a member of the janitors union myself at Local 87 in San Francisco, which represents office building

00:11:33.740 - 00:11:59.370

janitors. of others I think it's a good union to belong to. Uh, That's no longer the case. Because the union has a very diverse membership today, it has grown and not only geographically. But, uh, in terms of occupations and industries as well, uh, It's called the

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international, Because it has members in Canada as well as in the United States, and there are a lot of unions that have the word international in their title and Primarily it means that members are both in the US and in Canada. Uh, it doesn't have any

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other connotations beyond that point. The A little more on our international. It had some seamy periods in its history. There was a period in the uh. Late 30s when uh the International was pretty much under gangster domination. There was a fellow in outer Chicago named, I

00:12:43.180 - 00:13:05.450

think out of Chicago, uh named George Scalise, who was really a gangster, the Capone style. Uh and he ended up in Sing Sing where he spent a long period of time. Uh and Was put out of office due to the help of, uh, The district attorney

00:13:05.450 - 00:13:26.420

in New York, uh, Mr. Dewey, who later ran for president and, uh, on the Republican ticket, uh, Dewey put Scalise behind the bars, which was sort of interesting. That was before I went to work for the. And Scalise was succeeded by a man named William McFetrich

00:13:26.420 - 00:13:49.710

who was the general president for quite a few years and Very clean person who I mean in the sense of getting rid of any of the underworld element here in the west coast Scalise never had a inch of ground he could call his own. At that

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time, the leader of the San Francisco unions, there were several of these locals, was a fellow named Charles Hardy. An English, um, Born, uh, natural labor leader, no academic credentials at all except maybe through about the 3rd or 4th grade, but of just a. Real marvelous

00:14:16.780 - 00:14:39.820

person. Had an air about him of bringing people along and helping to organize groups. And he started in with this old theater janitors that I mentioned. That had this ancient charter going back to 1914, uh, and during the early days of the Roosevelt New Deal administration

00:14:40.200 - 00:14:59.060

when throughout the country, uh, union membership was on the rise and a great well of activity here in San Francisco we ended in the Bay Area we ended up with a large organization. In addition to this local 9, I can, I can just enumerate some of

00:14:59.060 - 00:15:20.890

them and we had a local 14 which covered apartment and hotel workers. A Local 18 over in the East Bay that had a similar jurisdiction. Uh, we had a local in Stockton and in Sacramento had a union just of window cleaners. We had a union of

00:15:21.070 - 00:15:42.190

janitors working for the public schools in San Francisco, a civil service union, which was sort of uh. foreshadowing of later events with a great growth in public employment. I mentioned the San Francisco janitors Local 87. We had a similar union in San Mateo County and in

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Santa Clara County, uh. A union that just started in the health care field, uh, At San Francisco General Hospital, another public employee group of porters and kitchen helpers in the county hospital who had applied for a charter and nobody wanted them, who wanted to organize hospital

00:16:08.400 - 00:16:32.090

workers, you know. Well, our union did, and, uh, they got a charter called Local 250. Started with just a handful of people. Now it's the largest of our unions with something like 30,000 members just in Northern California, and it represents healthcare workers both in the public

00:16:32.090 - 00:17:02.310

hospitals and primarily in the private hospitals. In classifications other than registered nurses, but, uh, that's the housekeeping, the dietary, the laundry, the subprofessional nurses' aides, uh, including licensed vocational nurses and in hospitals like the big Kaiser chain, we also represent, uh, Lab technologists, x-ray technicians, pharmacists,

00:17:02.440 - 00:17:22.770

clerical workers and so on. At Kaiser alone, um, I guess we have something like 7 or 8000 members just in the Bay Area here. So, that's a big union. And then, uh, in other areas, um, The city and county employees, for example, uh, start that. When

00:17:22.770 - 00:17:46.930

I first went to work in the mid-forties, Organization in San Francisco was pretty strange. There were a few AFL unions around. I mentioned the school janitors and a few others, some of the building trades, the carpenters, painters, engineers, and so on. And there were many associations.

00:17:47.020 - 00:18:09.690

There was an association called the Civil Service Association of San Francisco. There was a municipal Employees Federation of San Francisco, all doing little bits and pieces of representing city employees, and the city itself had no rules as to uh. Dealing with labor organizations and so it

00:18:09.690 - 00:18:36.900

was a circus, uh, uh. Once a year. There would be a consideration of salaries by the board of supervisors, maybe first by the civil service commission. And so all of these organizations tried to Represent either individuals or groups of people at public hearings that would start.

00:18:37.700 - 00:18:58.810

In the evening typically and go on from like 7:00 at night to 3:00 the next morning. And some city employees would hedge their bets by belonging to everything. A janitor might belong to a union and two or three associations. Figure somewhere along the line somebody's gonna

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help me. And so, um, San Francisco is still a very strange place in terms of labor relations. It's different than almost any other governmental entity, and, but at least now they're. Is something that appears to be collective bargaining and there are contracts that are developed, uh,

00:19:21.020 - 00:19:42.300

And Well, I could talk quite a bit about city and labor relations, uh, I might mention one anecdote, uh, the first big strike that took place in San Francisco. It was in 1970. Uh, I remember that pretty well because my wife and I were, Had plans

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to go on a Sierra Club trip in Guatemala and it was just touch and go if we were gonna get away on this holiday or whether I'd be stuck in contract negotiations instead. Uh, in any event, uh, Mayor Joe Alioto was the mayor at that time.

00:20:01.800 - 00:20:24.380

Dianne Feinstein was a member of the board of supervisors and was quite antagonistic to the whole notion of a city employees union going on strike. Uh, whereas Alleodo is much more sophisticated and, Could, uh, deal with it. It was very helpful in reaching a settlement. Oh,

00:20:24.720 - 00:20:49.340

well, what was his attitude? How did he? Well, he It was more of a mediator really than an advocate. Uh, our opposition was the, uh, Civil Service commission and the board of supervisors. And, uh, the mayor had Some decision making capabilities, but the power was more

00:20:49.340 - 00:21:08.680

with the board of supervisors, so they had to actually vote on anything. So. By himself could not, uh, reach a settlement. So, he had to convince the board of supervisors. Well, first we had to convince him. Yeah, at that time there was a system in the,

00:21:08.700 - 00:21:29.410

um, Sewage treatment, which was fairly archaic. If there was any rain, for example, in San Francisco, the structure was such that the sewage treatment plant was bypassed, uh, couldn't handle the rain as well as the sewage, and, uh, uh, all the materials went right out into

00:21:29.410 - 00:21:47.880

the bay just down here on Bay Street. Uh, and that happened. Everybody knew that because there was lots of talk about building a system. That would avoid that, but this was something that Diane felt she could make a big public point about these city employees are

00:21:47.880 - 00:22:05.050

polluting San Francisco Bay. Of course it happened every time it rained, but that wasn't, I mean she wasn't, she was willing to look in the other direction, uh, and I remember Joe Alioto saying, well. Sewage in the bay doesn't bother me. He says if they put

00:22:05.050 - 00:22:26.260

it on my front lawn it would bother me. And, oh, that was a fairly classy way to look at the whole subject. That, that was ultimately settled and. And avoided. It, it avoids the issue. Well, how does that work in then with um with the service

00:22:26.260 - 00:22:43.180

union? What? Well, we represented the San most of the San Francisco city employees at that time. Yes, but I meant with the sewage disposal plant, for instance. Well, I just mentioned that as a little incident in 1970. It didn't really have a direct concern of ours,

00:22:43.270 - 00:23:00.020

uh. The people who staff the sewage disposal plant were members of the operating engineers union, which was also out on strike at the time. Oh. Yeah. Oh, I see. I probably have, uh, been skipping too much. No, that's all right. We'll be going back. It's, it's.

00:23:00.110 - 00:23:21.750

Yeah, all right. We can get an overall picture of what. Yeah, I think I should say a little bit more about the wartime situation. Uh, Um The war labor board function I've described briefly, Prior to the war, most unions. That were involved in collective bargaining concentrated

00:23:21.750 - 00:23:45.710

just on The basic wages and hours of employment and there wasn't much attention given to what now we think of as the fringe benefits, vacations, holidays, sick leave. All the rest of those, Contract provisions that add up to benefits and it was really during this war

00:23:45.710 - 00:24:13.340

labor board period I have to say that organized labor made some of its great gains. A little bit ironic. Here we are fighting a war against Hitler with thousands of draftees overseas. And at home, uh, Labor and management were reaching agreement with government help in developing

00:24:13.340 - 00:24:39.090

practices that are Very widespread today that uh probably couldn't have been achieved without the uh intervention of the uh this tripartite war labor board. As an example, the Local 250, the hospital workers union. Had reached its very first contract with some San Francisco hospitals just before

00:24:39.090 - 00:25:05.080

the war in February of 1941. And it was, uh, a page and a half. Uh, giving away the two classifications of workers, male and female. Uh, this is true, and the female wage rate was $5 a month less than the male wage rate. Uh, the only,

00:25:05.950 - 00:25:28.760

Benefit Was a one week vacation after 5 years of employment and nothing else, just wait and oh well and it's 48 hour week, 6 day week, but at least it was uh something. On paper that uh the employers recognizing the union as the bargaining representative of

00:25:28.760 - 00:25:55.140

the uh nonprofessional hospital workers. So, When the contract opened up again and, Uh, early 42, I guess it was. It had to go before the World Labour Board as a dispute. And the World Labor Board in the meantime had developed certain, Standards or benchmarks for settling

00:25:55.140 - 00:26:19.020

issues. They developed a sort of an area wide practice, for example, on vacations of 1 week after 1 year and 2 weeks after 5 years. Developed a practice where they required uh classifications of workers instead of just uh an overall rate for everybody and they had

00:26:19.020 - 00:26:38.530

so as a result so we sat down with the employer and we developed job descriptions which we never had before we developed a list of. Job titles about 25 or so in number which are still in effect and uh we worked out a holiday system and

00:26:38.530 - 00:26:57.970

a sick leave system. All of these things which we probably couldn't have done just directly across the board with the employer. But it was done, uh, in this wartime situation. So I think most people who've studied this period would agree that the Impact of the war

00:26:57.970 - 00:27:19.490

labor board was quite significant in. Um Putting collective bargaining into a, a rather new situation of including. Not just basic wages and hours but also other conditions of employment. And so that was, I think, uh, I mean that was one of the things I was deeply

00:27:19.490 - 00:27:42.300

involved in during those wartime years and working out, uh, fringe benefit negotiations for the unions. I know Walter Johnson, who's current, uh, Executive of the San Francisco Labor Council, uh, Often says that the most important thing in the union contracts these days are the benefit structure

00:27:42.300 - 00:28:02.830

rather than just the money that's involved. Course, those benefits have, Been enlarged over the years, some of as a result of court cases, for example, there was a case that went up to the Supreme Court as to whether employers. We're required to negotiate on. Uh, health

00:28:02.830 - 00:28:24.840

and welfare plans and on pension plans, uh, The Supreme Court found that that was a proper those were proper subjects for collective bargaining. The employer's earlier position had been that it was an individual's concern to take care of his health off the job or his retirement

00:28:25.180 - 00:28:44.520

once the employment relationships severed, once the 8 hours has been put in that the employer has no other obligations. So it's uh what we now take for granted was really a, a great forward step to get a An obligation of the employer to sit down and

00:28:44.900 - 00:29:06.040

bargain about uh the retirement years of a worker. Mhm. We have a long way to go compared to say some Western European countries, but at least we have made progress in fairly recent US history as well. Uh In terms of our own international union as we

00:29:06.040 - 00:29:32.040

more and more. Brought in through organization or affiliation some other industries uh in. In the two main sectors of healthcare and public employment. It became fairly obvious that the word building service employees wasn't very uh. Representative anymore of the membership and then I think it was

00:29:32.040 - 00:29:52.990

1964 convention. The first word was dropped and we became just the Service Employees International Union or SEIU as it's commonly known today. Yeah Although there are some people who don't like us that still talk about the janitors union. I never see anything wrong with being called

00:29:52.990 - 00:30:12.700

the janitors union, but, uh, at the same time, uh, Uh, just in this Bay Area, we've said with some justification that it's cradle to grave because in addition to the hospital workers who might usher in a newborn, we also represent the cemetery workers who take care

00:30:12.700 - 00:30:34.750

of the disposal. They've been called everything from cradle to grave or womb to tomb. Sperm to germ or sperm to worm or the few other things that people try to invent. It, it's a very comprehensive, yeah. Including, The power mutual clerks in the racetrack. Who compute

00:30:34.750 - 00:31:00.300

the odds on the horses, uh. Another little union in the racetracks was the horseshoers union. There still is a little union of horseshoers numbering less than 100 nationwide, and they're mainly employed on the racetracks. Oh, that's delightful. And let's see. Well, we have, through mergers, our

00:31:00.300 - 00:31:25.020

union has acquired the, Optical workers union, Jewelry workers union, the, uh, dental technicians, uh, These were all little unions in the past that, Decided to affiliate with us. New York City, we represent the taxi drivers. They're not all union, but those that are. Um-hum. Are in

00:31:25.020 - 00:31:48.920

their union belong to. And I see how you, And so, it's a very diverse group. Oh. And within the public employment, you take a big Uh, well, the, the California state employees are are affiliated with us. That's uh. Probably like 80,000 members. And, uh, You know,

00:31:49.880 - 00:32:12.640

SEIU is not widely heard of really. It's not a major, Not an organization that one, Just pick out like the auto workers or the steel workers cause mainly because we're so diverse. It's still, uh, We're in all these little pockets of activity and, Well, now has

00:32:12.660 - 00:32:36.490

all this diversity actually dissipated some of their powers or, or, um, how does one bargain for all these diversity. Well, on the local level, uh, the way we're set up cause I think a number of other unions are, we have a national organization. Our union is

00:32:36.490 - 00:32:55.670

national body is seated in Washington DC. Present general president is a man named John Sweeney who comes out of New York City. His predecessor had been the San Francisco man, George Hardy, who was the son of Charles Hardy that I mentioned, who was the old pioneer.

00:32:56.260 - 00:33:22.950

George, uh, was, And most of his father's, uh, Features a very energetic, uh, active man. Um-hum. He just died, 02 or three months ago at the age of 79 in San Francisco. And, um, See what was I saying in terms of diversity anyway, the National Union

00:33:22.970 - 00:33:45.080

in Washington. If you start with a local member who pays his monthly dues. That money supports a, a whole pyramid, that's sort of an inverse pyramid in a way. We've got the national organization and below that, the national charters, the various local unions around. Uh, SEIU

00:33:45.080 - 00:34:10.640

has, I dare say, 3 or 400 local unions around the United States and Canada. And the local unions in turn, Affiliate in a variety of ways. Every state has a state labor federation. The California State Labor Federation currently headed by a man named uh Jack Henning.

00:34:12.410 - 00:34:39.270

Uh, is a lobbying organization primarily in Sacramento representing labor's interests and all of the AFL-CIO unions in California. Affiliate with the California Labor Federation, they're supposed to, most of them do, and the local union pays a per capita fee to the state federation in San Francisco

00:34:39.270 - 00:35:02.670

we have a San Francisco labor council which deals with a variety of local issues and the local unions from different internationals affiliate with the labor council. Per capita, uh, there and then we have our own organizations and the various SEIU unions in the western states, for

00:35:02.670 - 00:35:27.680

example, have a Western Conference of Service employees, uh, supported again by a little per capita from the local unions, uh, and we also have a California State Council of Service Employees which is mainly our lobbying arm in California too. So, the, Member who's paying his dues

00:35:28.380 - 00:35:53.930

to the local union, Uh, is also supporting a national organization, state and local AFL-CIO bodies, uh, Uh, state and regional SEIU bodies as well. So what's left then we'll run the local union. Uh, some unions, Particularly the hospital workers have reached a pretty good system on

00:35:53.930 - 00:36:14.210

dues. And it's always a problem. Nobody likes to pay dues and, uh, Paying union dues is no exception. In fact, people, they have great resistance to paying local union dues if they're not enchanted with what the leadership may have done for them lately. So the hospital

00:36:14.210 - 00:36:38.830

workers for years have had a policy of saying that the due structure will equal um 2 months, 2 hours of earnings. Uh, rounded up to the next highest dollar. So when earnings were only like uh $3 an hour, which wasn't, which was the case, say uh

00:36:39.130 - 00:36:57.240

some couple decades ago, the dues were $6 a month. Now the earnings, say, in a place like Kaiser Hospital may average more like $12 an hour, so the dues will be $24 or $25 a month. But at least the union leadership can say to the members

00:36:57.240 - 00:37:16.150

when you go to work at. 8:00 in the morning on the first of the month, you've, by 10:00 you've paid your monthly dues. And it, you know, it's, it's, it's rational. It's reasonable. That's graphic. Yeah. Uh, no. It's much easier than, Other ways of trying to

00:37:16.410 - 00:37:35.890

figure out and going and getting. Uh, popular votes and so on. I, I was just, uh, wondering just to, uh, uh, make it specific if we take, uh, say, um, an engineer working for the city. Can we break down what he would be getting, um, in

00:37:35.890 - 00:37:54.550

his salary and how much he would go to the local, the state and. Well, I won't take, I can't take an engineer because I, uh, they have their own union. But that's also part of SEA? No, no, that's part of the, um, operating engineers union, which

00:37:54.550 - 00:38:15.400

is. Oh. A separate international. Oh, that's in, oh. And I'm not sure I'm up to date on these various, uh, per capita fees, but for example, uh, the biggest bite out of the Monthly members dues is the per capita tax to the international union. Uh, so

00:38:15.400 - 00:38:35.270

let's say we're talking about a hospital worker who's maybe paying $20 to $25 a month right now. I think the current international tax, this could be checked, and I'm, I have no idea how close I am, but in the neighborhood of about $4 a month. That

00:38:35.520 - 00:38:55.890

goes to the international. Um-hum. So, that's. Uh, and the other affiliations are generally much less. Like I think the San Francisco labor council is something like 25 cents per member per month. And the, uh. Oh. State council, the state, uh, federation, a little less, maybe 20

00:38:55.890 - 00:39:13.100

cents per member per month. And, Our regional bodies may be a little more, like 50 cents to a dollar a month. Uh, I say I have to qualify that by having been away from the. Um-hum. Day to day picture for 10 years. But that's very little.

00:39:13.180 - 00:39:37.170

But, uh, it's fairly little. Uh yes. So. But then you're talking fairly large numbers of people. Um-hum. Uh, the San Francisco labor council, for example, Represents about 100,000. AFL-CIO members in, uh, in San Francisco. And, uh, So if they're getting, uh, even, 20 cents a month,

00:39:37.430 - 00:39:57.900

uh, they're getting what? So, my arithmetic isn't so good early in the morning. But it's, uh, enough. Yeah. To run the shop because, uh, they've got only about five employees there. Plus a lot of paperwork and so on and telephone calls and rent to pay and

00:39:58.230 - 00:40:25.430

but not a real high salary limit. The local union, uh, has of course salaries and rent and all of the. Regular costs of running, uh, what in effect is a good size business, uh, Have to hire lawyers, have to, Probably too much in my opinion, but

00:40:25.610 - 00:40:43.320

a lot of unions use lawyers to Represent members in grievance procedures. I don't like that myself. I have nothing against lawyers too much, but I don't think they should. They used as much as some local unions use. How would you prefer it? I'd prefer to, But,

00:40:43.380 - 00:41:02.030

uh, just out of the, Um Body of people within the organization itself and I liked the role that I played when I was there because I was a member of the union. I did nothing else except work for that union and knew it intimately and uh

00:41:02.350 - 00:41:25.520

I knew the industries well. And I was on a salary and uh a lot of the time that I spent was uh involved in representing people in grievance procedures, arbitration cases, which I enjoyed and uh And in contract negotiations, which I think was uh A better

00:41:25.520 - 00:41:44.530

use of the union money in paying someone like myself than it was in going out and hiring a lawyer on an hourly fee basis, uh. who may not have the same intimate knowledge of the industry or of the union. It's a controversial issue. I'm willing to

00:41:44.530 - 00:42:03.830

argue with, uh, as they say, some of my best friends are lawyers, but, uh. Well, so these aren't lawyers that are just, uh, hired, uh, full time. That's correct. Uh, Uh, the, some unions, well, like our international has a couple of lawyers full-time on its staff,

00:42:04.240 - 00:42:25.610

but not in terms of collective bargaining. I don't know of any of our unions that has a lawyer full time. Some unions will put a law firm on a retainer, uh, so much a month, and Uh, there's a couple of very prominent labor law firms. Uh,

00:42:25.830 - 00:42:48.130

the one that many of our unions use is, uh, Uh, Victor Van Borg's law firm, Van Borg, Weinberg, and Roger that does nothing but, uh, labor law representing unions and a couple of other law firms. Do similar work and they like to have retainers, of course.

00:42:48.270 - 00:43:11.250

Uh, I, I guess they work out deals where they can also charge extra on cases that involve longer hours. But, uh, Unions have to face this problem, and our union has been changing in a way that I'm not completely happy about, uh, but I have nothing

00:43:11.250 - 00:43:34.440

to say about it anymore. When George Hardy was became general president in the uh. Late 70s, I believe. Again, don't hold me to these dates. He had been a vice president for the West Coast. And, uh, The man who preceded him in office was a man

00:43:34.440 - 00:43:55.130

named David Sullivan. Who, unfortunately, was a very, Fine man also out of New York who became ill and retired and George succeeded him as president. Some of us thought it was very amusing because we know George so well, uh, who is a pretty rough, tough guy,

00:43:55.340 - 00:44:21.360

uh, lots of edges that he resisted any smoothing, uh, profane, uh. Loud, uh, used to be a cigar smoker, but he'd given that up some time ago, uh, but a big typical cartoon character almost of a labor boss. And so he said, well, George, he'll never

00:44:21.360 - 00:44:41.430

be, Cool enough to be a general president, but he was, you know, the job changes the man frequently or the woman. I've seen that many times where people rise to the occasion. And surround themselves with uh good staff people. And when George became president, one of

00:44:41.430 - 00:45:06.180

the things he set up that I had a major hand in. Was trying to. Develop, Research programs, uh, such as I headed here in Northern California. OK. My job had been, well, the, the office that I had, it was called the Research and negotiating Service. We

00:45:06.180 - 00:45:24.500

didn't do a lot of research, uh, certainly not in the academic sense where you, uh, research a problem to see what. Ends might come out of it. The research we did was to support an end that we already knew about, uh. Uh, if we're trying to

00:45:24.500 - 00:45:43.330

get a wage increase, we Studied all of the economic data to support that particular proposal. It wasn't just a question of digging out materials and To see where it might lead. Uh, quite a difference in research from, uh, Practical to the academic and that's who are,

00:45:44.160 - 00:46:03.410

But in any event, uh, one thing that I mean George felt very strongly that having such an office here in Northern California was a great help to the unions, which it was our little. Bay District council was supported at that time by a 25 cents per

00:46:03.410 - 00:46:16.000

member per capita. Which paid my salary and paid my office expenses and uh two others that were then associated with me in the office.