00:00:03.549 - 00:00:27.940

Testing testing. Do you want me to test this? Do you want to test it? OK. Why don't you set the date yeah, January 6th. It's a Thursday evening. Sally Golden G D I N, yeah. Um, and we're talking about your life, your early life, your life

00:00:27.940 - 00:00:46.069

in your family, and then subsequently, um, on your own, specifically talking about the, your parents, uh, the influence that your parents' political lives had on your upbringing. So. Tell me first about your family, uh, who were, who are were the members of your immediate family? Um,

00:00:46.319 - 00:01:03.549

let's see. My father died in 1978. His name was Maurice Golden. He and my and my mother is Frances Golden. She's still alive and I have a sister whose name is Rene who's still alive, and my mother and Rene live back east. And I was, I

00:01:03.549 - 00:01:26.330

was born in 1946 in January. My birthday is in a couple of weeks, three weeks, and um. And I'm now I'll be 48. And um Um, my father was born in Russia. And came over here when he was like 7, I think, and my mom was

00:01:26.330 - 00:01:42.379

born in Queens, and my father's father was a rabbi. And um he was supposed to be a rabbi when he he was trying to be groomed for the rabbi, but he was one of 11 kids and the 11th, the oldest was killed in pogroms in Russia.

00:01:42.949 - 00:02:05.919

So 10 came over, actually escaped in a covered wagon or something, yeah, under something oh God and um. And then my father had very, very, very bad asthma as a kid, and he never could quite get into being a rabbi and instead he became a communist.

00:02:08.988 - 00:02:21.498

I think partly, I mean, who knows what all partly, but he read, you know, voraciously because he, he was had asthma, he couldn't like do a lot of active sports things, and he read and read and read and went to the library and you know he

00:02:21.498 - 00:02:34.779

got his mind got opened up to a lot of things. I was gonna ask you what do you know about your parents' lives before you were born, their childhoods, the influences on them. Well, I know that um I don't know a lot. My grandmother was an

00:02:34.779 - 00:02:53.500

amazing woman, really a strong woman. My father's, when you say Morris, I have a son named Morris, and his name is Morris Golden, which is really incredible, you know, and so when you say Morris's mother, like, I'm Morris's mother. What are you talking about? Yes, my,

00:02:53.699 - 00:03:10.910

my grandmother. Um, I mean, she came, she came with 10 kids to the states and my father was 7 and the youngest was like 5 or something. And on that trip, she got sick before they got onto the boat and ended up in the hospital and

00:03:10.910 - 00:03:23.509

one of the other kids got sick also and they had to like they wouldn't let you on the United States if you were sick. Right, well, I mean they were sick enough that they she had pneumonia or something. I mean she ended up in a hospital

00:03:23.509 - 00:03:42.520

in Poland or in somewhere, somewhere, yeah, not at home. And then so she, you know, came over and they land they landed in New York. I don't know if they went to Ellis Island or not, they may have, I don't remember and they stay, they lived

00:03:42.520 - 00:04:00.809

in the Bronx and I have a diary that my father wrote which is just an incredible thing and and it talks about, you know, just his sort of growing up days and A lot of like almost book reports that he would write cuz he loved reading

00:04:00.809 - 00:04:26.579

and he was an incredible writer himself, you know, and. A very smart man and um yeah, he went to City College, I believe, and I think he graduated. And um. I'm not sure exactly how he got involved. In in the left, but I know that by

00:04:26.579 - 00:04:46.290

the time he went to work at the WPA and he was into it then. And that was when, when did he that was in the 30s, he went to work for the WPA. The Marine something, I don't remember. What was his? Was he a tech technical

00:04:46.290 - 00:05:03.619

person or I'm not sure. And up to that and one minute and my father was sort of the black sheep of the family of his family because he had these sort of left political leanings. I mean, he used to, he was, he would talk on street

00:05:03.619 - 00:05:22.079

corners like he was, he got really into stuff like um the Scottsboro Boys and that kind of stuff, and he would like, you know, do all this stuff and his family was like, you know, at that time. Um, I don't know exactly when he joined the

00:05:22.079 - 00:05:42.239

party. I, I don't know. I don't know a lot about how he got involved in it. Um, But And then, and then my mom. Went through high school and then wasn't, you know, wasn't supposed to go to college. She was a girl and she had a

00:05:42.239 - 00:06:04.200

sister and a brother and um. She got, she was like the valedictorian of her class or something like this, and she's 11 years younger than my father. My father was married and then divorced without any kids to someone else, some woman named Pauline or something. I

00:06:04.200 - 00:06:22.910

should remember not to drop my voice cause that's what's hard about transcribing. I really know that. And um. And she, and she got a job. Oh, I know what she, I have more information for my mother. She applied to work at the telephone company and they

00:06:22.910 - 00:06:40.059

turned her down because she was Jewish. And she was furious, you know, and so she got a job at the WPA doing secretarial work and got and had much more money there, which so it ended up being good and that's where she met my father and

00:06:40.059 - 00:07:09.809

she would have been. Well, they were married in 19. 44, I believe, so yeah, she was in her early 20 or 21 or something like this, you know, young. I mean at the time it wasn't young but it was normal, but seems like a baby. Well

00:07:09.809 - 00:07:26.880

my kids get really I know. Maura says, I'm gonna have a baby when I'm 19. I said, I hope not, honey, not in my house. Anyway, and um she told me that when she went to work there. I'm gonna have to turn off the heat soon

00:07:26.880 - 00:07:44.130

cause it's getting warm. OK, so she told me that um. She went to work at this place and that there were all these people. It was um uh this guy named Frank Polichek and another guy I forget his name, and I think Jack McManus who used

00:07:44.130 - 00:08:01.649

to be the um the editor of the, the Guardian in New York, the National Guardian, um, anyway, they were all sort of in this group and I guess they noticed my mother as this sort of sweet innocent young thing and sort of said to her. Well,

00:08:01.850 - 00:08:14.940

you know, what do you think about socialism? And she said, oh, it's bad. I mean, what did she know? She didn't know, you know, she was just like echoing what and they said, Well, why and she said, Well, I, I don't know. And so they started

00:08:14.940 - 00:08:25.489

telling her stuff about it and she said, you know, for the for like 2 weeks I did nothing but sit on my desk and they filled my head full of these stories and by the end of 2 weeks I was a radical, you know, and I

00:08:25.489 - 00:08:43.630

was just like totally taken. And that's where she met my dad and you know she. And then they got married, so I mean, I don't know when a year later or whatever, but that's how she got introduced to it to those politics and then um. They

00:08:43.630 - 00:09:07.809

moved down to Lower East Side. And lived on 11th Street between 2nd and 3rd Avenue. 225 East 11th Street, remember that and. Um, Then I was born and my mother. My father, my father got started working with the ALP and he was something in the leadership.

00:09:07.869 - 00:09:24.169

I forget I think it was the treasurer or the something in the ALP and that was what he was doing his job, that was his job he was doing full-time organizing, you know, and um. And my mother was working as a secretary for a butcher or

00:09:24.169 - 00:09:41.659

something like this, Harry, Harry the butcher, and on the Lower East Side, which is where we lived and then um my sister was born, she's 3, almost 3 years younger than me, 2 and 3 quarters. Rene, R E E N I Rene. Um, no one in

00:09:41.659 - 00:10:03.179

the world spells anything like that. It's so that it can't be pronounced anything but Reni. That's what my mother said. It has to be pronounced. Um, And And then at some point that I don't remember, oh, and then my and then my mother. Ran for state

00:10:03.179 - 00:10:31.380

senator. On the ALP ticket with Vito Marc Antonio and Doctor Dubois and who I don't know who else was on that ticket. This would have been when? 50. I don't know, 123, something like this. I probably have records. What are some of your early memories about

00:10:31.690 - 00:10:50.429

the, the family, the household, their activities? Well, I, I feel I I mean, I don't know that I have my early, my, my sort of memories, just my senses is that there was always activity in our house. I feel like I learned to walk on a

00:10:50.429 - 00:11:05.710

picket line, you know, that's where I learned to walk. I was sort of weaned on Pete Seeger's music and learned to walk on a picket line, and that was just sort of the norm for me. And really, um. It was always jumped into our heads, you

00:11:05.710 - 00:11:22.359

know, about. Sort of the politics were always talked about in the house. Um, You know, I sort of much like I think that we do with our kids today, you know, it's important to think about the world, you want to change if things are bad, you

00:11:22.359 - 00:11:42.039

need to do that kind of stuff, um. I guess it was a lot of like civil rights was part of what was the was the beginning of that, the precursor I guess of that movement there, but and um but then my father was blacklisted. And I

00:11:42.039 - 00:11:58.659

now whenever that would be, I can't remember, I mean, I'm not good on these dates, but um. And But blacklisted from what he he didn't have a Well, the ALP folded. Uh-huh. The ALP folded and then he went to look for a job and he couldn't

00:11:58.659 - 00:12:10.549

get a job. Well, I think he, he was, I guess he at that point he was trying to do anything, but one of the things that he somehow had some training or he started a printing business of his own or he was trying to do printing

00:12:10.549 - 00:12:24.989

estimating, but he or he was selling mutual funds for a while. I mean he couldn't get a job. He was out of work for a long time I think like 7-8 years. This is my memory. I may be wrong, but it was a it was a

00:12:24.989 - 00:12:38.809

long time and I do remember that he was really depressed and really, I mean, he didn't have work and he couldn't get work and we didn't have a lot of money and my mother. You know, had this job, but it certainly wasn't a lot, and my

00:12:38.809 - 00:12:57.650

father's family, some of my father's family had gone to Indiana and gotten quite rich in the scrap metal business, and they formed this thing called the Golden Family Circle, and they sent us like, you know, 30, 40 bucks a week for a while. They didn't like

00:12:57.650 - 00:13:12.669

my father's politics, but he was their brother, you know. So they helped us out and we did, I mean, I do remember growing up that we didn't have money we were poor. I mean, you know, we knew not to ask for money. We knew that you

00:13:12.669 - 00:13:27.929

didn't, you know, you got new clothes once a year and that was the the first day of school and otherwise my mother made clothes or we. God hand me downs or stuff, you know, you didn't ask for things cause you, you know, you didn't have money.

00:13:28.710 - 00:13:42.140

Well, during this period when your, when after the ALP folded and your father's out of work, what were his political, who, what were his affiliations then? Did he join those he helped he was in, well, during this time, I think he was in the CP and

00:13:42.140 - 00:13:57.549

then at some point he left the CP, but I don't remember when don't. And he helped form a group called LEMA, Lower East Side Mobilization for Peace Action, which was a grassroots organization in New York, which was with a guy named Henry A no, was Henry

00:13:57.549 - 00:14:14.140

Abrams who helped him do that. Anyway, I don't remember, but. Um, they, that it Olympus still exists, I believe, and it was, it was a real grassroots thing and they were doing like. Again, this was a little light of Vietnam work against the war in Vietnam

00:14:14.140 - 00:14:32.309

and a lot of, a lot of grassroots peace type stuff. And so that's what he was working and my mom was working with housing, that was her volunteer her life in area of interest. Well, let's go back to the McCarthy, Rosenbergs. What, what do you remember

00:14:32.309 - 00:14:56.539

from um from those years at particular events, um, um, what I remember is, um. The admonition that our parents gave to us saying, never talk to strangers, but it wasn't for being molested. It was for getting information. Um, don't, don't talk, don't tell anyone that we're

00:14:56.539 - 00:15:18.260

not home on the phone, but it wasn't, it wasn't about safety at that point. It was about they're going to come and get information from you. Um, our upstairs neighbor, we, we lived in a, a building that had 34, yeah, sort of flats. They were apartments

00:15:18.260 - 00:15:34.369

in New York, and the, the bottom floor was a doctor eventually became a synagogue. The block we lived on had 8 synagogues, sit. And, and then below us was another um left wing family and then I and then above us was these two like maiden aunts,

00:15:34.739 - 00:15:47.369

these two Jewish women that had lived there forever and they used to go through our garbage to find the daily worker, I mean, you know, which we got, of course, and I know that they were, I mean, I think we got the sense that they were

00:15:48.099 - 00:16:04.820

telling people or something, um. I remember, I remember the feeling that there that it was dangerous, that there was some danger. I mean, I didn't feel like it was physical danger on my body, but that we had to be careful, you know, that we had to

00:16:04.820 - 00:16:20.359

be circumspect and that um it was never a matter of not saying what your politics were for in my family, but it was more you just had to be careful. Who you said it to or something, you know, it was like the FBI agents were going

00:16:20.359 - 00:16:34.190

to come and they did come. I mean, they did come to my, they talk, they came. I mean, they came to our door. You know, and they accosted my father several times. He had asthma. And he was a sort of a tall man, and he used

00:16:34.190 - 00:16:47.909

to walk with his shoulders hunched up so that he could get extra air and in the winter, you know, he was a very imposing figure, and I, I'm told that at one point these two guys just fell into step beside him as he was leaving the

00:16:47.909 - 00:17:04.469

house one morning. Mister Golden, we'd like to talk to you, you know, and apparently without breaking stride, he said, beat it. And they just stopped in their tracks and he went on, you know, and he was like, I mean, he wasn't obviously he didn't, wasn't interested,

00:17:04.550 - 00:17:28.699

you know, um. This was the time, this was the time I was thinking, well if you did, um, so this was the time when, um, sorry, when um they were doing um Fallout shelters at school where you had to climb under your desks, and I remember

00:17:28.699 - 00:17:39.349

we were told at home that that was garbage, that that wasn't going to save us from the bomb, that the only thing that would save us from the bomb was organizing around stopping the bomb and that if they had a fallout shelter, what do they call

00:17:39.349 - 00:17:51.329

it a shelter drill, civil defense drill. Yeah, I think they called them shelter drills in our school that we didn't have to do it, so we would not do it and the teacher would routinely say you have to get under your desk, and I say it

00:17:51.329 - 00:18:04.310

doesn't help to get on your desk and they'd send me the principal's office where I'd meet Redi, who hadn't done it either, you know, it was like, here we go again. Well, you speak of you on the one hand you say you remember, you remember fear,

00:18:04.420 - 00:18:22.880

but you, you're laughing as you're telling this. You know, I didn't have right, because the most of everything I, most of what I got for me was entirely positive. It was like this was the light, this was this was the lifeblood of my family, and this

00:18:22.880 - 00:18:36.969

was what their politics sort of was what made them who they were and kept them going, and they instilled in me like that this was. That we were so lucky to have come from this background that, you know, we were just the luckiest people in the

00:18:36.969 - 00:18:51.859

world to have this kind of an outlook on life and it was and the fact that we had it was going to make for changes and we were, you know, and, and that was how that was like the way everything was presented so. Although there was

00:18:51.859 - 00:19:06.540

fear, I mean, I was at, um, my mother took me to Peekskill, you know, Rene was too little, and she told me about that. I mean, she told me amazing stories about it. She told me about, you know, when they left the whole stuff that happened

00:19:06.540 - 00:19:17.339

when they left, and I was a little kid and she said she was terrified, and this, the story goes that she was really, she's a very amazing woman trying to keep her cool and that she dropped some gum on the floor of the car because she

00:19:17.339 - 00:19:29.989

was sitting in the back seat and the driver had glass in his neck and she was. You know, and she said, Sally, I dropped some candy. Would you go down and find it? She wanted me to be on the floor of the car, so I went

00:19:29.989 - 00:19:44.430

down there not thinking anything about it, and she put her foot over it, and then, you know, I was down there for the whole way out because she was cool, you know, but like that kind of thing. I, I vaguely, now, what year did the Rosenbergs

00:19:44.430 - 00:20:01.410

die? Was that 53? So I was 7 and I know that my mother went down to Union Square. There was a big thing in Union Square, and she went down with both of us, and I remember very vaguely a crowd and just everyone crying. But I,

00:20:01.489 - 00:20:19.130

I mean, I, I, we, the Rosenbergs were common names in our household, obviously. I mean that case was followed very strongly. But you don't recall or did you um did you um project that was that was that was that a possibility in your own family? Do

00:20:19.130 - 00:20:36.739

you remember that would happen to us? I don't think I ever had that feeling. I don't know if I thought we were invincible or, but uh. I, I, I don't think so. It was like everything was so pot, it was like the pot, it was even

00:20:36.739 - 00:20:56.290

if, I mean, maybe. I don't know, because even if something happened, it wasn't gonna be worth giving up our politics that was clear, so. And uh we felt very well taken care of. And your parents' circle of friends, were these all political people who were around

00:20:56.290 - 00:21:11.699

a lot and were you, were you friends with the children of their friends? We were friends with the with the adults, you know, and um we used to have mass mailings at our house and I I know I can remember going up to the ALP office

00:21:11.699 - 00:21:25.030

on I was on 2nd Avenue or something. I don't exactly remember. When I was really little and learning how to stuff envelopes and stuff, it was like I was really good at and I was, you know, I was a very smart sort of outgoing little kid

00:21:25.030 - 00:21:40.829

and at 6 years old I was, oh, she's a real, you know. We got, we got one. You know, and I'd say I can stuck his head more faster than you, you know, whoever it was, some adult or something I probably could in some ways. Well,

00:21:40.989 - 00:22:01.199

how did your parents explain I mean obviously a lot of what you took in you almost through osmosis, it was just in the air, but when you had conversations, how did they explain their beliefs to you? Um, It's centered around workers. That workers were like the

00:22:01.199 - 00:22:19.510

most important people and it was really that they were proud to be workers. And that was not, it was a really wonderful thing to be a worker and and some of the classic stuff, you know, workers were the salt of the earth. And you know that

00:22:19.510 - 00:22:38.040

everybody should was equal and nobody was, you know, worse than someone else and the color of your skin didn't matter and I mean, you know, basic stuff like, you know, going to Kinderland Camp Kinderland and some, you know, that kind of, I mean, I don't know

00:22:38.040 - 00:22:53.819

that they sat down and actually explained it, you know, I mean we were. I mean, we listened to folk music, you know, the it was like it, it, it was sort of like osmosis, it's just that was what was, you know. You can't separate it out

00:22:53.819 - 00:23:13.640

one day I didn't know and the next day I knew. No, no, no, no, no. Uh uh. Um, And so the tenor inside your home sounds like it was very lively, stimulating, not without an economic anxiety. There was economic anxiety and there was, I think some.

00:23:15.469 - 00:23:30.459

Like social anxiety about, I mean, like I said, there was some fear and certainly during the McCarthy period, it was like, but. My parents, I think were were unusual, uh, oh, I don't know if they were totally unusual, but from other stories I've heard, I feel

00:23:30.459 - 00:23:50.619

like I was really lucky because. Even though my mom and dad were both out a lot doing their political work, I always felt like they were very available. Yeah, that is so, yeah, yeah, and would, would one of them always stay home or, you know, my

00:23:50.619 - 00:24:07.540

mother told me that they had made a policy that no matter whether they had a meeting before dinner and a meeting after dinner and a meeting. After that, that they always had dinner at home and we always, the four of us almost like. you know, that

00:24:07.540 - 00:24:20.219

had to be an earthquake for not all four of us had dinner at home, and that sets up a certain kind of t. So even if every night they went out and we had babysitters, we did have a lot of babysitters, but we always had dinner

00:24:20.219 - 00:24:41.900

together, so that's and sort of sets up this feeling that they were there, you know, yeah, yeah, um. When did your father then find work and what kind of work? He found work as a printing estimator with some like liberal guy who, you know, was like

00:24:42.160 - 00:24:57.140

sympathetic or something to the cause and hired him and turned out I think to be a sort of a drag, but it was worth for a while. Um, You know, I don't remember what year it was at all. I don't remember these years. I could find

00:24:57.140 - 00:25:16.589

out from my mom probably, um, so the kind of security that you described in a very positive way in which they presented all this effectively reduced considerably any sense of danger or fear that you had. I think there was some sense of danger. It wasn't like

00:25:16.589 - 00:25:36.959

it didn't exist, but it was, it was sort of like. That was just part of what you of what existed. I mean, there was, you know, when, when Seeger was called up before Hugha, um, it was like, what if we get, what if you, you know,

00:25:37.040 - 00:25:52.790

what if daddy gets called up before Hugh A? But you know, the only thing I knew to do was to do something, was to try and do something, you know, I mean, I went up to Harold Leventhal, who was Seeger's, um, agent, and I, and I

00:25:52.790 - 00:26:05.310

was 12, and I said, what can I do forete Seeger, you know, and he put me to work doing this, that and the other thing, you know, it was like I didn't know what else to do. I think that, see, I have some memory that I

00:26:05.310 - 00:26:22.239

organized a hoo nanny at my house. And I'm pretty sure my memory is that I asked Betty Albert to come sing at it because she's a little older than me. I think yeah, she has an older child has a teenage son, right, so I think she's

00:26:22.239 - 00:26:41.199

maybe 10 years older than me possibly not that much older, maybe in her early 50s. So I'm almost 48, so 5 years anyway, enough older that I think she was playing the guitar. Well, it may not, I think it was her that if she was playing

00:26:41.199 - 00:26:59.920

the guitar back then and I, we made like. $46 and I was convinced that they had no more problems. I mean, it was such a lot of money to me. You know, tell me about your, um, your time in school. Um, by the time you're speaking

00:26:59.920 - 00:27:17.819

of now, you were probably a young teenager maybe to the local high school which was Set Park. Uh-huh and um were were the children of your parents political friends there or were you on your own? I was mostly on my own and I was different. I

00:27:17.819 - 00:27:34.609

was, um, I, I was always sort of bucking the crowd. I was in um. This RA rapid advan, you know, they did 7th, 8th and 9th grade in 2 years, so I was younger. It made me younger than some of the other kids and um. And

00:27:34.609 - 00:27:49.130

I was always like they'd have I would join the symposium club and want to talk about shelter drills or something and you know, let's have a debate about whether it makes sense to have shelter drills and people were maybe not interested in it or you know,

00:27:49.170 - 00:28:05.939

I was always bucking something like that um and I was different also because I didn't, I was like I didn't like boys then I mean I wasn't like as developed or sophisticated as some of the other kids, you know, and. I liked my parents and you

00:28:05.939 - 00:28:28.800

know whoever whoever heard of that yeah. Did, were your parents' political activities known at school? Um. I don't know if they were, but you don't recall in any way either ostracized or pressured. I don't think of that was um about how old were you when you

00:28:28.800 - 00:28:40.930

started going to Kinderland? Oh, I only went to Kinderland for 1 year when I was 5. I went when I was 5 when I was a teeny kid and then I went to um the Henry Street Settlement camp, which was on the Lower East Side. Which

00:28:41.150 - 00:28:55.550

was an all girls camp and I went there for a bunch of years and then I started doing the whole comic camp track of um it used to be called Unity and it was a a a resort called Wingdale, which was an adult resort, mostly commie

00:28:55.550 - 00:29:09.310

people and um then they developed a kids camp and I went to it as a teenager and then I worked as a CIT and then I worked as a counselor and then it turned into another, they sold it to a place called Webatuck. It was all

00:29:09.310 - 00:29:25.739

these. Sort of, you know, progressive things and what did camp mean to you or for you? What did, um, in your growing up I loved camp. It was like, well, I mean partly I guess it was a chance to get out of the city, but, and

00:29:25.739 - 00:29:40.180

I've always loved being with kids, so I was, I loved being a counselor. I was a great counselor. I was a great CIT, you know, I was a music specialist. I played the guitar and um. what it meant to me, I don't know, but I mean,

00:29:40.260 - 00:29:53.989

I went to camp for many years of my life and it was like one of my most wonderful experiences and I mean, all of my stuff carried through with like all the, you know, the songs that we did were all the peace songs and the old

00:29:53.989 - 00:30:07.390

folk songs and the, you know, the progressive songs and stuff, you know, Fry hide and Diga Duncans and Fry and you know, all these things that. Well, some of what I've read and heard from other people is that camp was not was a place where they

00:30:07.390 - 00:30:26.849

felt comfortable and safe, unlike um unlike where they lived during the school year and where their family lived. Yeah, and I. I don't think I had, I think my experiences, I think my experience was different than a lot of kids because it was a funny mix

00:30:26.849 - 00:30:48.489

of like I was totally aware that you had to be careful and stuff, but at least at this point, you know, from, from the point of view of being 47, I don't remember feeling like real, real, real freaked out. Yeah. Um, I know that I, I

00:30:48.489 - 00:30:58.729

know there was, I mean, I, but there certainly was some of that. It's not like everything was just roses, but what about um the tape? I'm gonna let me stop now.