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Today is February 13th. This is Lulau from the Oral History Project of the interview with the American left, interviewing Sam Krieger. Sam When where were you born? I was born in Ballatok, Russian Poland on August 20th, 1902 of Jewish working class parents. And was brought to

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the United States around 1904, shortly after my father finished serving his time in Siberia. Where he was exiled by the Tsarist government for leading the first textile workers strike in Ballatok. In America, however, my father worked mainly as a fruit and vegetable veer. With a horse

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and wagon in Newark and New Brunswick, New Jersey. My mother worked in a feather shop and then opened her own store where she made ostrich feathers for women. My parents were strong socialists and my sister and I. Attended socialist Sunday school as well as socialist meetings

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and play. So what, what were they, was this part of the uh. A movement or was it a yes, it was, it was, uh, the, uh, socialist Sunday School of the Workman's circle of the Circle, yes. Forerunner of the uh uh Kerch or the IWO. And

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I can still remember the great shouts in the audience when Eugene V. Debs spoke in Newark when he ran for president on the Socialist Party ticket in 1912. So this was in Newark when you went to the, this was in Newark, yes. And, uh, were your

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family religious? Well? No. Although I am glad that we were brought up. And uh non-religious and free from many of the superstitions of religion. I regret that I didn't learn to read and write in Yiddish since I must have missed uh a lot of uh Jewish

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folklore and history. Were they, uh, when you say the word religious, were they, uh, uh, militant atheists or just non-religious? I, I think my father was more what you just described as a militant atheist because, uh, I remember, uh, and rather, uh, I, I was told

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more than I remember that they used to give, uh, uh, lectures and talks, uh, uh, uh, on the question of God and uh the fact that there and that there was no God, so he must, he definitely was an atheist. What happened in the Jewish holidays?

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Do they, uh, do they actively, um. Violate that. Go again Kipper, for instance, I know you just have the not that uh. Eating in a restaurant. No, I don't, uh, no, I don't remember any of that, but, uh, they ignored the, uh. The holidays and that,

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that is to say they observed, they did not observe uh Yom Kippur or uh we didn't, we never did, uh. Or the religious holidays. Uh, incidentally, I tried to correct this seeming, uh, neglect of my own childhood by, uh, sending our daughters, marrying a friend to

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a progressive Jewish young people's Cultural Club in Long Island. But on the whole, our children followed in the footsteps of their parents. Sadie and me and grew up non-religious and not much interested in their Jewish heritage. And Sadie and I were very happy to be told

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by Mary and Fran a number of times that they were very glad to have been brought up in a politically radical household. However, We were both your father and mother actively, uh, left? My mother, uh. I believe even more so than my father. She was secretary

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in New Brunswick, New Jersey when we had moved there of the Workman's Circle uh branch, uh. And uh however, she died at an early age. Um, my father, uh, I don't know if he uh was actually uh. A, a member of, uh, any of the socialist

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party, for instance, um, although I do remember that he was a member of the, uh, International Workers' Or what period is it you see now? Well, now I'm speaking of the period of, uh, 1913, 114. 15 when you were a youngster then, a child, um, and

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your parents were active and left organizations, uh, how did the children neighborhood react to you? Did you have problems or? Did they know about it all? No, as I, as, as I remember it, uh, it never came up, uh, we, I do. Yes, I, I remember,

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uh, we used to get uh. dirty looks of questioning looks, uh, when it came to. To certain holidays we lived in Jewish community, yeah, and uh. Uh, but, uh, not anything more than that. Did you as a youngster, were you uh proud of the fact that

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your father was socialist and your mother was socialist? Yes, very, very much so, and, uh. Then then uh. As a matter of fact, when I was only about 15, I had already helped to organize a branch of the young people solstice. And who were your heroes

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when you were a youngster? Who stood out, Princess as early as you can recall. Well, the main one was Eugene Victor Dent, I would imagine so. Who else? I mean, he was the of course a The head of the Pantheon. you, you heard him speak? Yes,

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I heard him speak. I, I, I remember his looks. And um As I say, uh, I remember the commotion, the shouts, the excitement. Uh, at the time, uh, well, I must have been about 10 years old. Now, was this when he came out of prison? Uh,

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no, no, this is before he, before he went on 1918, 19, right? Uh, were you close to your parents, to your brothers, your sisters? How big a family was it? Uh, my sister was one year older than me and, uh. and uh And uh my brother

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was 6 years younger than I. So, so there were 3 of us in addition to my mother who died, uh. Uh, in, in 191914. What is it, was it? No, she died in 1916, 1916. I was fortunate at the time. How close to family were you,

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were you a, a loving, close family? Did you have problems or? Well, your parents was very busy. Uh, we, we were close and respectful. We, there wasn't, uh, our, our parents were not too affectionate as I remember, you know, the. We didn't, uh, do much, uh,

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kissing and cuddling. What about among your siblings, your sister and um. I mean, yeah, well, my, uh, my, my sister and I, we, uh, uh, were brought up together, uh, politically and, uh, and we. Helped each other and uh there was a closeness uh with my

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sister and of course my brother was uh. To around 4 or 5 years old. Where were you educated and uh Get me some little picture of the kind of school in there. What you thought were important things you learned? Well, I, I started, uh, grammar school.

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Newark, New Jersey and. And finished grammar school, graduated the 8th. The elementary school In New Brunswick, New Jersey, then. I started New Brunswick High School, but I only attended for. Uh, a few months because I was carrying a newspaper out both in the morning and afternoon

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and it was too hard to, uh, go to school and work at the same time, so I dropped out. So you dropped out early in high school, yes, and um. How did you Get your contact with the world at large. That is your political feelings of

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what sources did you learn about them? Did you read about them? Did you get a word of mouth or or their friends or parents or what was the well I? Well, after I dropped out of high school, I decided that I would, uh, Learned a trade.

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And uh went to work uh in the Wright Martin Aircraft Corporation in New Brunswick and immediately joined, uh, the Machinists Union. I went to work there as an apprentice, tool and die maker's apprentice. And so, uh Um, My socialist, uh, upbringing uh caused me to Uh

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For instance, so. A, a socialist newspaper, the New York Call that was uh published uh. At that time, a daily socialist newspaper and I used to bring in the New York Hall to sell uh to my shopmates and at union meetings. And uh Um, And, and

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then, uh, the union good and welfare programs. Uh, at the, uh, uh Dealt at the time with social questions and I uh was quite aware of some of the questions raised. So in any case, Uh, I, uh. Began taking an interest in. In the world at

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large, almost immediately that I started at work. Did you have, um, were there many socialists in that particular in the place you worked in New Brunswick? Were there other socialists there? Yes, uh, did you work together with them in a sense, uh. Yes, some of them,

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uh, some of the, uh, machinists and tool and die makers who came from other cities because by that time, uh, uh, the United States had entered World War One and, uh. And the aircraft uh corporation became uh A uh Uh, complex and the drawing, uh, place

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for, uh. Uh, many out of town, uh. Uh, working people. And uh So that uh. Some of them joined the, uh, some of them joined the socialist party and I met them there. Others, uh. In the shop who were socialists, uh, we would socialist minded we

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would meet up at union meetings. Did you find that um that generally that they? People you work with were um friendly to your ideas. Were they joined or not? Did you get any flak there? Did you have any hard ties with it, or was it a,

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what was your experience when you are selling the uh the call, what happened to selling inside the yard? Well, outside the outside the gate, outside the gate, sometimes I'd bring them in, uh, bring some copies in just to distribute to those who gave me regular orders

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to, uh, that they want the paper or uh. Every day or uh. Once a week, I forget now. But uh There was plenty of hostility, uh, I remember. Uh, working right on a shaping machine. A shaper and there was a. Big guy, blonde headed guy there

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and uh I remember him saying to me, don't talk socialism to me or I'll punch you in the eye uh doesn't sound far moved from that. Uh But Mhm. The um Were you politically active before that role? When you were, before you went to work, did

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you belong to any um socialist groups? Did they have a junior socialist group of some sort outside the school you went to? No, uh, the, the only one they had was the one that I helped to form, the Young People Sociist League, and that was about

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what, how old were you then? I was 15 then and before that, did you go into any, did have standing up for like a pioneer movement? No, they didn't. So your first act of work was with a Young People Socialist League, and then it was with

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a trade union. Then it was with the Machinist union. Now when did you join the IWW? Well, that was 1918. So that would be what about 2 years afterwards? Uh, yes, it was a few years, uh, afterwards. Did you um Did your family support your decision

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to join the IWW? Well, my mother Uh, had already died and my father, uh, uh, didn't, uh. Interfere whatsoever and. My, uh, activities at that time. So that was, what year would you say you joined? Well, I did join. In 1918, when uh I was blacklisted

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from my job in New Brunswick. How did you join? Somebody approached you or you you sort them out or what? Well, I had been going into uh New York City. On weekends, some weekends and uh. Met uh. With the The socialist-minded and uh radical-minded young people

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and uh I was introduced to uh some of the uh Some members of the IWW and I believe I attended uh one or two meetings. Uh, as a matter of fact, uh, I did meet. Uh, a, uh, leader of the IWW by the name of Harold

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Lord Barney, who was, uh, The cause of my being uh uh fired. From, uh, White Martin Aircraft Corporation. Oh they, they knew that you had met him or, well, what happened, Bruce was that uh he had sent me an inflammatory letter. Uh, against the government. Saying

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that something to the effect that uh. Government can only be overthrown uh through violent means. And he suggested that uh I showed this letter to Of my some of my shop mates who I could trust. And uh I, uh, uh, was, I had taken the letter

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to work with me, put it, uh, in my lunchbox in the locker. And uh I hadn't, uh, as I remember it, I hadn't, uh, even had a chance to, uh, show it to anyone or to talk about it anyway when uh. My, when, when my locker

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apparently was uh uh gone into. And uh oh yes, a security guard is supposed to have found it, but actually uh my locker was broken into and the letter taken out so that uh as I realized, as I knew later. It was a plant. It was

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since Barney, Barney turned out to be a police agent who was expelled from the IWW and Barney, by the, uh, incidentally became the head of, uh, the Constitutional Educational Leagues. I don't know if you remember coming across it in any of your research. Now when you

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joined the IWW, was this? In opposition to the Socialist Party was together with the Socialist Party, you saw the two was being. Working together and so on. Yes, it, it was certainly not in opposition. Uh, but it was sort of a, an, an outgrowth since the

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left wing, uh, element in the Socialist Party, uh, favored, uh, the IWW and wanted to work with them. And I do remember, uh, some of the, uh, Mossacks who we considered the conservatives, uh, thought that, uh, the IWW that you either had to uh be for

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one or the other and you couldn't be for both. When you um When they joined the IWW. So what were you doing actually in the IWW? Well, When I left New Brunswick because of, uh, I couldn't get any work there, I went to. To Newark to

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look for work. And uh I, uh I helped, uh, I met with and helped an IWW organizer who was uh trying to uh sign up. A construction gang. Apparently a member of the Wobblies was working. Uh, and, and this construction gang and sent in notified New

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York office and so this IWW organizer, uh, George McClellan, he came into Newark and I, uh, uh, went with him to this construction gang and remember, uh, doing that, remember. is spending a few days with him off and on, so. So I joined the the IWW

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branch in Newark and I wasn't there more than uh uh possibly a, a few weeks when uh the question of uh. Electing a new secretary. Yeah. Uh, came up And uh surprisingly, uh I was uh asked and vote and voted in as the secretary of the

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IWW branch of the Newark branch of the IWW and I was no more than 17 years old. Now, why did you join the IAW though since you belong to the Socialist Party, you belong to the union, the Machinists Union, uh, what impelled you to join the

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IWW? Yes, because, um, this, the Socialist Party I concluded, uh, was not, uh, radical enough, uh, was emphasizing, uh, Political action practically, as I understood it then, is the only means of bringing about social change and uh I had concluded uh after listening to some of

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the IWW. Uh, speakers and just after having discussions with. Um, other people I concluded that, uh. The IWW. Uh, had a superior and a better, more practical revolutionary program for bringing about. Social change than the Socialist Party. Of course, as far as the, the machinist union

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is concerned, uh, I looked upon that, uh, the union then as merely a reformist and not a revolutionary organization and I definitely at that time. had uh Revolutionary ideas. Now, how did you, when you say that the IWW seemed to be a, a, uh, much more

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advanced or more advanced revolutionary group, uh, what would you say that generally speaking that policy was in that gave you that feeling? Yes, they, they called for. of bringing about uh. The organization of the Workers of the country and one big union. Idea And in any

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case, they emphasize that the economic strength. Of the workers was more, was superior to the political uh strength of the workers. Uh, that, uh. Uh, the working people could, uh. Apply their strength and and their influence and uh on the job. Whereas uh. Take uh going

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to, to vote. Uh, every once in a while, every few years or so, was, uh, certainly an ineffective, uh. Way to exercise your potential power. Consequently Even though the IWW, uh, was scornful of political action as a matter of fact, that if the IWW uh specifically,

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uh. Repudiated political action. As a means of bringing about, uh, of exercising working class power of bringing about change to society. So do you feel that that air program, uh, gave you a sufficiently clear perspective. In other words, uh, when they spoke of making change that

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they had sort of a blueprint as to how this would be affected and how power will be taken and how power will be used. Did you get that feeling when you were, at that time I thought that uh. The structure of the IWW. which was supposed

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to be an outline, sort of a pattern for Uh, the whole country. Uh, eventually, uh, uh, to, uh. To adopt That the workers were organized, uh. Industrially. And uh. And was centralized uh. And had common objectives if they exerted their power and use their economic power,

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uh. Together at the same time, say like in the general strike. Uh, then they could bring. Wheels of uh industry to a halt and they could uh just by exerting the uh economic power of the workers, they could, uh, Uh, stop capitalism from functioning. Oh no,

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I'm sorry. Uh, what was the Wobbly's position in the war, one that's, uh, discredited them to a lot of radicals at that time. Uh, I know the Wobblies took certain positions that were controversial. Uh, what was your experience with that? Well, the, uh, IWW uh opposed

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the war, of course, as being A uh A capitalist war, um, uh, to divide uh uh the uh Empires or to to divide the markets of the world. and to establish. The sphere of influence in the world. And uh that the workers were uh merely pawns

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and tools of the capitalists. Class And consequently, they opposed the war. Uh, on, uh. The on those grounds. How did the Socialist Party, how are they involved with World War One? What was their position? Well, most of the socialist, uh, Party, uh Members were also opposed

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to the World War One. And uh And regarded the uh. Uh, the war when the United States, uh, entered it as being, uh, against the interests of the, uh, American workers and the American people. Uh, this is, uh, Uh, I, this, of course, I say not

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based on my own contact which is minimal, but, uh, of course, uh, Really, uh, I did attend, uh, meetings, uh, called by the Socialist Party then. And uh Then of course afterward I did read and learned that the Socialist Party at its uh Uh, conference in

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Saint Louis was that in 1917, uh, did adopt a resolution of opposing the entrance of the United States into the war and uh this was the majority. The membership of the Socialist Party that supported this resolution and at that time, of course, people like John Spargo,

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William English Walling. Um Kirkpatrick, um, Uh, uh, other leaders of the Socialist Party. They left the Socialist Party, I believe that's, uh, uh, Charles Edward Russell was another one. They left because they supported the war, because they supported the war. So in other words, they, they

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supported what, uh, wasn't that the general policy of the second international and throughout the world then. Yes, yes, uh, the, the name, the people who I mentioned these former socialists, they adhered to the, uh. Uh, program, uh, of the 2nd International, which, uh, supported the wars.

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Did any of these people that you speak of, um, afterwards following to developing the Third International, becoming part of 3rd International, not any of the people who I've mentioned now. No. For instance, Morris Hilwood was uh a famous, uh, Socialist Party figure, and I believe that

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he also supported the Saint Louis resolution, but then, uh, only for a short time because he also. became outspoken in the support of the war. How did you feel about the socialist stand then, the second national stand? Were you aware of it? I, I was aware

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of it and I was fully, uh, against it and, uh, and since the socialist revolution had already taken place or. The czar had been Uh, had abdicated and uh and uh. The Bolshevik party came into power and shortly afterward. A call came out for the 3rd

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to form the 3rd International and uh I was very much aware of uh. The uh The fact that uh. Left wing socialists and, uh, now the, the communist leads, I don't think there was a communist Party in the United States at the time that they were

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all, uh, that they, in any case that the true revolutionists were favored the uh. The 3rd international that was being uh. Um, Formed by the uh Russians. Uh, one of the, uh, uh, pleasurable memories that I have. Of my working. At

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the Wright Martin aircraft during my apprenticeship. Uh, was the deep attachment and friendship. That I Formed with uh a young tool and die maker by the name of Clarence Miller. I believe he uh came from the Michigan area. And uh When he came to work uh

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at Wright Martin. Much to my surprise and joy. I discovered that he was also A socialist in his viewpoint. Uh, because we used to go to some, uh, socialist, uh, conferences together out of town. So, so I just uh Not only admired uh. Clarence Miller, but

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uh I really looked up to him as uh I almost uh I almost idolized them. So it was uh Only natural. That uh when I joined the Communist Party. And was asked uh whether I wanted to make take a party name. I immediately said uh. Uh,

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put me down as Clarence Miller. Uh, this is going to be sort of a broad question on the Wobblies. Uh, first of all, uh, sort of a general idea what the Wobblies were doing then and, um, when you left the Wobblis and why you left them.

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Yes, well, uh, suppose I first tell you that, uh, I, uh Again, uh, to Actually feel uh a part of uh this uh militant revolutionary organization early in 1919 when I was arrested and charged with criminal syndicalism for giving out uh IWW leaflets on the street.

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In Newark, New Jersey. I spent about a week in the Essex County jail there. Before I was released on bail, thanks to Roger Baldwin, who was serving time. There as a conscientious objector to the war. Roger, as you undoubtedly know, later became the head of the

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American Civil Liberties Union. Well, some weekends, uh, I would go into New York and visit the Wobbly Hall as I mentioned. And also the James Connolly Club. By the way, where Big Jim Larkin, the Irish revolutionary lived. And uh sometimes I would take part in some

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direct action job with the IWW, like when we went to an expensive Chinese restaurant. Where the wobbly waiters were on strike and dropped a load of stink bombs as we were leaving. Incidentally, while in New York. I also heard John Reed speak, I believe it was

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in Webster Hall. He just came, uh, come back from reporting. Uh, the 10 Days That Shook the world. And I heard him give this. Speech which became famous and it was called the Peace that passeth all Understanding. In the spring of 1919. I took to the

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road, which at that time meant the railroad with an older experienced migratory worker. He taught me the tricks of the trade, how to protect myself, uh, while riding on all types of passenger and freight trains. The Wobbly's National Office was in Chicago, and it was very

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exciting for me to meet and mix with famous leaders like Elizabeth Gurley Flynn, Ralph Chaplin. And Big Bill Hayward, with whom I even played a game, an unfinished game of checkers. Is he a good player? I never, I never found out. I, I think we were

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sort of even when he was called to the telephone and we never finished the game. When did you meet Gurleyson? It was, uh, it was then in, uh, for the first time in 1919, uh. Yeah Either in the national office or the Troop Street Hall of

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the IWW. What were your impressions of her, uh, Sam? Well, I, uh, I was, uh, so, uh, awed, uh. By, uh, her fame, you she was even then she a legendary figure. And uh And so I just uh thought what a wonderful remarkable person she was.

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And When did you leave the Ros? Well, Let's, uh, uh, sort of, uh, jumping a little let's let's exactly right. Now you said you were riding the rails were they using the red passes and stuff like this then, the red cards? Alright, now um. Well From

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Chicago. I took a shipment to Kansas. That is, I paid $3 for a job as a section hand to repair the rail, uh, the railroad tracks. We were called Gandy dancers. You went into a storefront employment agency and plunked down a couple of bucks to get

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a shipment. Uh, however, uh, before the train got the cancers, I hopped off and joined a gang of field workers who were harvesting the crops. And I worked these harvests up. I worked to harvest up through Iowa and into Minnesota. And we worked from sun up

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to sundown. Now here I guess you could, uh, this could be edited out and uh just to get an idea of uh what the sort of market that you're that you're interested in um. For Well, as I said, uh, at one of my first job, uh

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farm jobs, I learned it didn't pay to be too polite. You see, in order to work hard, we have to be fed pretty well. So one morning at breakfast when I was handed a big platter of hotcakes, I passed it on without first putting a couple

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on my plate. By the time the platter came around to me again, there was only one little beat up hotcake left. I was learning a lot about the life of a migratory worker. Many times we were rounded up by the police as we came off the

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freight trains and given the option of working for a well-known slave driver. Farmer John, John, as he was called. Or going to jail I spent 1 or 2 nights in several jails between Kansas and Minnesota. When our freight trains stopped at a vegetable cannery or food

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processing place, We would usually make a run for it and swipe some canned goods or vegetables. Then we would cook ourselves a Mulligan stew in the jungle as we call the countryside, and we spent the night there usually telling stories and singing rebel songs. Now these

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songs express the antagonism of the workers against the present society and their hopes for a better world. Do you remember some of those songs? Yes. Although most of the, their members uh were migratory workers, the IWW was formed by the most revolutionary working workers in some

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of the uh Most basic industries of the country. I'd like to say here that the program of organizing the American works industrially rather than by craft unions preceded the CIO by 30 years. The IWW were very much ahead of their time. And their militancy and heroism.

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was in keeping with the early traditions of the American labor movement. The great sit-down strikes and other memorable labor struggles were undoubtedly influenced by the examples of militant struggle that the IWW waged against the employers. The main shortcomings of the Wobbblies was that they didn't believe

00:42:40.820 - 00:43:05.199

in political action. For the electrical electoral process, as I said before. It was an anecho syndicalist outlook that was not suited to the needs of the American people or the labor movement. Eventually, the IWW became a small sect shot through with Asian provocateurs and spies. But

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the militant heritage of both struggle and song that the Wobblies left behind. Will undoubtedly live on for a long time. Two of the foremost poets. Who wrote the wobbly songs of discontent were Joe Hill and Ralph Chaplin. Joe Hill died a martyr who believed in his

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principles to the end. His dedication and sacrifice for the working class had been. Has been an inspiration to countless millions of people both in the United States. And throughout the world. His last words were, don't mourn for me. Organized Ralph Chaplin was also a leader of

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the IWW and a gifted poet. And author of the famous labor song Solidarity forever. But in later years, Chaplin became disillusioned and reactionary. What a pity And what a contrast in human character and spirit. You asked about Whether I remember some of the Way songs, I

00:44:26.169 - 00:44:54.120

sure do. Uh, so I'm ready. OK, go ahead. OK, you, I'm gonna ask you however to take part in the singing, especially in the chorus, OK. So then I'll feel better and so will you. Well, let's start with the. One of the Joe Hills. Stun right

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And it goes like this.