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I left you guys. I keep on telling you I'm gonna make you swallow your words here. Carl Sullivan and Scott Nering, both of these men are veterans of the socialist movement in this country. They are both in their 90s. Uh, they've had long careers of consistent

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service, uh, for socialism in America. Carl started off as a railroad worker as a young man, and he went on from there to be active in various political groupings, later became a builder, and has been consistently radical up through your 2nd year. Uh, my 2nd year

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and Scott has a national reputation as a writer. As an active politician, an economist, he has been involved in many different phases of the American left, and his record speaks for itself. I am Bruce Kuiper representing the radical elder Oral History Project, and our discussion today

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will be primarily on the early years of Scott and Carl. Uh, the opening question I would like to ask you is, both of you gentlemen, and I'll ask you singularly, uh, singularly, um, Carl, when did you first, as a young man, when did you first imagine

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yourself or first become influenced by radical thought? Was it family or uh what was the source? I think it was probably on the reading of Progress and Poverty by Henry George. That's the earliest. I probably had other earlier uh exposures to radical thought because my father,

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both my father and mother were um. Uh, wide readers, they were both educated. My father was educated in Purdue University. He in fact was, uh, Uh, graduate of class one of Purdue University and uh my mother was also a graduate of a college in Indiana. And

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so I was exposed early to Uh, wide range of, of thought and uh uh. Lots of literature, both the current uh periodicals and uh books that uh uh I read uh. And one was progress and poverty and that was uh. And uh 19. I think it

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was 19212. Have you read any of Bellamy's work? Yes, I've read. Yeah, all, all of his work is. Looking backward and uh. The sequence to the equality and um That was, of course, uh finalized my radicalism. And uh, although I have read your biography, uh, for

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the purpose of the show, when did you first, uh, uh, when were you first exposed to a radical thought? Well, the first, the first that I can remember. It was, uh, one spring day when I was out with my grandfather. My father's father. They were loading

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logs on a log train. To take them 4 miles down the road to Blossburg, Pennsylvania, where they were sawed into lumber. And uh One of the people who was working on the job. Came over where my grandfather and I were standing. And picked up a log

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chain. A log chain was anywhere from 16 to 24 ft long, about half inch lengths. And when he picked up this log chain, he walked back to his position. Like that slowly. And I thought to myself, why doesn't he hurry? I don't know why I thought

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that, but I remember it very distinctly. Why doesn't he hurry? So when this episode, as this episode was drawing to a close, he threw the chain down. And I went over to pick it up. And I couldn't lift it. And And at that point I realized

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that the people on the sidelines didn't know what was really happening when somebody at the center of the arena was doing what we call heavy work. Now this, this was not an intellectual uh conversion, you see. This was just an observation that I made. These, these

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guys certainly work hard. That's interesting. Well, in terms of intellectual sources, had your grandfather, uh, uh, provided you with any literature from his massive library that, uh, might have, uh, triggered off or cultivated your, uh, your interest? Well, perhaps I, but I doubt that very much

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because at that time I was not particularly a reader. He was a great reader and he had a big library. With a lot of different stuff in it, a lot of different materials in it. I was not a great reader. I must have been about 8

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or 9 years of age, I guess. I hadn't begun to read yet. Well, uh, had Bellamy's work influenced you in those periods, later on, of course, both, both of Bellamy's books, Equality and looking backward and you were exposed to him when in high school or? Yeah,

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in high school, right. Well, now your parents uh were uh Carl, your parents were subscribing to magazines, socialist, uh, magazines which ones in particular? Well, at that time in my early age, uh, I don't think they subscribed to political, not that I can remember, but I

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know they took the uh leading. Journals like Harper's Bazaar at that time was a. Quite a well read and well known periodical and um. My father was a veteran of the Civil War. And he took the A couple periodicals, uh, took a newspaper. Uh, Weekly that

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uh contained the news of the of the of their organization and um Contains stories of uh. Of the Civil War I remember one particularly that we always look forward to reading or having read to us was uh uh serial. Uh, the, the. Activities of a couple

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of soldiers by the name of Cy Clegg and Shorty. And uh it was comical and informational. And we, we look forward to hearing that every week and it was I can remember yet the thrill we got out of. Hearing the stories of the Civil War. Well,

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where did you go to high schools. Primary schools in um a town. Well my The earliest school was a little backwood school at Fairmont, Arkansas. And uh it was uh just a one room school and I attended that for I think 3 different years. At that

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time we only had 3 months. Uh, schooling per year. And uh after The school year was from this was December, January and February. That was a month when there was no corn to plant or hole or so forth. And uh uh. After that for 2 or

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3 months, my father conducted a private school for students that wanted to attend in our in our home. in school and at home. No, no, not in school but at home. And uh of course my schooling uh. was almost continuous because we we were reading good

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stuff and we were being corrected in in our language and uh. We were My both my mother and father were. Teachers like uh Scott nearing and if there's any anything wrong with our Knowledge or way we spoke or anything we were corrected so I had the

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benefit of that kind of an education. Well, you were influenced by your mother in particular, uh, if I remember from your biography and you went to a public school, was it in Philadelphia or in Morris Run. I went to public school one year in Morris Run.

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And after 1896, I went to public school in Philadelphia. Now were the school systems uh adequate? I mean, pertaining to what, what sort of an education did you have there? My grandfather and my father read the New York Post. Which was a, a liberal paper. And

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uh they both were followers of the New York Post liberal line. And I suppose I got as much. Liberal education as one can get at that age. I was about 1312 or 13 years of age. Now did the New York Post concentrate on primarily national news

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or did it also cover uh fairly thoroughly. Now what was its editorial policy was liberal did it give exchanges of views pertaining to some of the political parties that existed at that time period. What sort of allowance for independent thought did it have? Well, one of

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the, one of the things that I remember best is was the Brian. Brian versus McKinley. McKinley versus Brian McKinley representing big business and Brian representing the labor unions and the people. Yeah, 1900, 1896. I, I remember very definitely the, uh, depression that began in 1892 because

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I had a sort of a part-time partner. I had a sort of a part-time job at that time. I was getting 25 cents a week for going to a store and helping to clean out and so on. I must have been uh. About 9 or 10.

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And uh I was influenced by, I suppose, being in a coal mining and lumbering town, I was influenced a good deal by, what should we call it, the atmosphere of the town. And uh the New York Post did not fit into that atmosphere. But uh the

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people of the town did fit in the atmosphere and it was an atmos it was not an intellectual atmosphere of course uh there were, there were strikes and uh labor struggles while I was there. Hm, well, uh, what I'm thinking now you were in Philadelphia in

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high school. Now where, where did you, Carl, go to a college? Where did you go directly to a seminary? You mentioned to me once a seminary. We went to, uh, I had 2 years in what's called Rogers Academy. It was uh uh. Part of the congregational

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school. System if if you know what I think that was held in the Middle West they had colleges they had one at Drury College in Missouri in Springfield, Missouri, was it Calvinist or Lutheran or congregation it was congregationalist and uh. Uh, they were very good schools

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and this Rogers Academy was a particularly good school because it was run by a professor. Weimer and his wife. And uh uh. A cores of teachers of 4 or 5. And it was mostly uh. Uh, live in, we had our, our dormitories and It was a

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cooperative. We did all the work we did all the kitchen work and the gardening and so forth as part of our tuition and I had 2 years there and I. As I look back I feel that that was The best exposure to education that I've ever

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had because uh. Mr. and Mrs. Wimer were excellent teachers and they. Disciplinarians. And uh it was a wonderful place. Were you aware of the, or did you have any exposure to Brian when he was bornstorming around the, uh, I went to a couple of his lectures.

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Cross of gold Lectures, you know, you remember those Scott and uh I remember standing right across a narrow street facing a hotel where Brian came out and and and spoke sitting beside my father. And my father was Uh, uh, criticizing. What he had to say to

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me for my benefit. Well, what did you think about Brian's Uh, speeches, did, did you think Brian was a man of his word? Well, my impression of Brian was Father's thinking, of course. And uh He thought he was just a big bag of wind. And nothing

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else. He didn't didn't hesitate to say so, although he was an orator. Did you ever hear him, Scott? He was an orator, I mean in the old sense of the word. I had a chance to talk on the same platform with him one time. And uh

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I had it, I, I talked first. And I put it in, I put it pretty strongly. And when Brian got up, he said, well, He said to the audience, Well, I guess when history is written. I will be reported as a follower, not as a leader.

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That's that is an interesting response. So He didn't take up on the radicalism at all. He never understood anything radical. Of course he, he was also, he had a lot of the populist backing and there were all these farm agrarian movements that were giving him a

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lot of support in that time period. My father both supported Brian. They were, they both call themselves Democrats and and Brian was the Democratic candidate. What did you feel that Brian's campaign had a divisive effect on the American socialism in that time period? Well, it detracted

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somewhat from socialism because both of them were both the socialists and the Brianites were saying. More or less what the populists were saying at that time, and the populists were divided between socialists on one side. And populism on the other, of course the socialism wasn't understood

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generally then at all. It was just the idea was just emerging Marxism was uh a Marxist was a a rarity in in in in the intellectual world of America at that time and um. Socialism or populism as we Called it then. The old populist party. Influenced

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The thinking Up to quite a long period up up to the beginning of the First World War anyway. Well of course now during the early 1900s that was the blossoming of a new type of in quote aggressivism and there were a lot of uh muckrakers and

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a lot of writers of that period. I know Scott you uh wrote in your biography about uh being involved in Philadelphia exposes and maybe uh you might elaborate, uh, uh, you know, some of your experiences, uh, uh, when you were in college. Uh, uh, what particular,

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uh, you were involved in exposing some of the corruption in the city of Philadelphia? Only indirectly at that at that time I was. Under a pretty strong influence from uh Simon Patton, who was the head of the economics department in the University of Pennsylvania and uh

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Sam Lindsey, who was professor of sociology, Samuel McKewn Lindsey, who was professor of sociology. And they, they were not socialists, of course, but they were far ahead of the populists in this sense that both of them believed that it would be possible to take what we

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had in the way of a social structure um long about uh 1900 or a little before that, what would take that social structure and improve it to a point where it would be able to deal with the problems of uh that were arising at that time

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with industrialization and uh the other forces had worked and of course a little later on with the war. Problem right now, uh, Carl, at the time period that he was being influenced by, uh, these patent, etc. where were you? That intrigued me. That was, uh, uh,

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I don't know that was. Uh, impressed me more then. Then um Then Holland Roberts' case here in in Stanford, yeah, because it was. In the Academies of of the country. And uh it was suppression of of ideas. Ideas that were blossoming in within me and uh.

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I would just say speakers and some people really have to learn it and I was one of the fellows that really had to learn it. I, I think though quite a few public speakers had to go through that process. I'm one of the fellow that should

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have learned it. Well, are you guys set? OK, why don't we begin? And I'll repeat, Carl, uh, you were in seminary. Now what happened to you that's uh what we call academy. It was a 2 year course, uh, comparable to our junior highs here because we,

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we had 2 years and uh before we went into. Uh, the college and the college was located in Springfield, Missouri, Drury College. And uh while you were there uh I understand you went through some changes in terms of your political outlook. And also your attitude toward

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religion at that time. Well, just about that time. I was um Uh, having to pick up a, a book, book that, uh. By Joseph Lewis, that name mean anything to you? On uh religion. And it was uh If, if you ever read it, but it is

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uh. Uh, Very Clear cut drastic condemnation of the whole religious concept. Lewis was a a fine writer and he's a prolific writer too. But um I read that. And I was deeply shocked by it because it, it, uh, uh, went straight against everything I've been taught

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and uh believed although I had been leaning towards uh uh. Uh, a criticism of, of our institutions, particularly our religious institutions and political. Because of what I'd read of um. Of Henry George and And um Bellamy, so forth. But this reading of of Lewis's condemnation of

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religion. And uh I reread it Seeing if I felt the same shock that I did on reading it the first time. And uh I felt that I didn't have that shock. I began to accept it. Well, what did Louis say specifically? Do you remember his argument?

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Well, no, I couldn't, uh. Uh But he was um One of the First People of the atheists that came out that um. And he He postdated the. Robert G. Ingersoll. Now Ingersoll was accepted. He was a self-confessed atheist. But uh he softened his uh his philosophy

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or his attitude towards religion with a lot of beautiful philosophy if anybody's ever read. Uh, Ingersoll. Uh You know, enough to really understand what he was saying. He was an idealist. And was had that within him this uh. Religious. Attitude towards Humanity towards nature and everything.

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He was a nature worshiper and so forth. And he was my ideal. As a In his attitude towards religion and so forth, have you been exposed to Ingersoll's work, uh, Scott? I beg your pardon. Had you been exposed to Ingersoll's? Oh yeah, oh yes, oh yes,

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I was exposed to Ingersoll's work. Well, how were you affected by it? Not, not too much. Although at that time I was. Teaching a Sunday school class and uh I was the president of Christian Endeavor in uh Russell Connell's Temple, Philadelphia Broad and Burke Street. He

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had a big, uh, he had one of the largest, uh, Baptists, it was a Baptist church. He had one of the largest Baptist congregations in the east. He had just come from the Civil War. He was an officer in the Civil War. He had just come

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from the Civil War. He's a very good speaker. And uh carried a lot of us young people along with him, and I was working with him at the time. And uh this went on until 1905. And then Again, you see, you're, you're interested in authority and

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I was interested in Philadelphia politics. I'd, I've been going into the Philadelphia South side. And writing up some. Political science material for a course in, in politics in the university. And I came into conflict, into contact with uh A situation where they said Um, If The

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Republican Party, which could dominated Philadelphia, of course. If the Republican Party needed 10,000 votes in this ward, in this ward, Philadelphia. The word captain would provide the 10,000 votes if he knew how to write 10,000. So I was, I was, uh, in this, in this campaign

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in the 9 in 18 in 1900 and 4, I guess. In this campaign, Franklin Spencer Edmonds, who was a professor at the Philadelphia Boys' High School, was running for city council, and I was his secretary. I went around with him and uh sort of carried his

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hat as it were. And uh Franklin Spencer Edmonds was, was a typical academician, but he was definitely on the left. He was not a socialist. He was a progressive academician. And uh I was, I had been for some time working. In the Sunday school and in

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the Christian Endeavor under Russell Connell. And when the, when the uh organized attempt was made in 1904 to put Rudolph Blankenberg in as mayor of Philadelphia and Franklin Spencer Edmunds to elect him to this select council. I was asked to work with him, and I, I

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came at the whole proposition in such a way that when, when they set up a Blankenberg. Um, public committee. I went to Mister Conwell or we went to Mister Conwell. Russell Conwell and asked him, would we, would he support a reform campaign in Philadelphia? And he

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said, of course he would. He was in favor of reform. So, uh, Uh, we, we put him on the committee and this name, the names of the committee were published. Well, at that time, a very interesting situation existed in the state of Pennsylvania. Matthew Stanley Quay

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was the real brains behind the Republican organization, and Boyce Penrose, who was the other senator, Senator Quay and Senator Penrose, USA senators from Pennsylvania. And these boys had worked out a wonderful racket. Every legislature appropriated a lump sum for nonprofit institutions, schools, churches, charity, societies, and

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all of the other Ilimazinary or nonprofit institutions. Very, very similar to what the, the, uh, how the corporations use the foundations that just the same way, just the same thing. Only at that time it was confined to Pennsylvania and they used to get this lump sum.

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And distributed 10,000 here and 5000 there, and 25,000 yonder. And if you had, if you, as a citizen of Pennsylvania, had any kind of a connection with public uh institutions of this type, Your organization, the organization for which you were responsible, was getting some thousands of

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dollars from the Pennsylvania State Treasury. And so Mister Conwell, who had a church. And the hospital, the Samaritan Hospital and the college have coverage. He was that he, like Jesus should teach and preach and.