00:00:03.009 - 00:00:21.129

Testing, testing. OK, I think we should be on. Why don't you speak to them and just check the light. OK, hello, hello. My name is Sheila, S H E E L A H Geering, G E H R I N G. Great. And your association with total

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reading? I was a teacher of total reading using practicing using total reading and as an outcome of having used it in the classroom I became director of total reading which basically means that I'm uh organizing workshops all over the United States and and um. Teaching other

00:00:39.590 - 00:00:53.200

people about total reading, teaching teachers how to teach reading. So you're a teacher. I'm a teacher trainer. That's basically how people say what do you do? That's what I do is I teach teachers how to teach reading using total reading and you were a classroom teacher.

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Uh, in the Bay Area I was also up in Marin started out in Marin County and then I taught in Orinda at the school that I went to school at as a little girl. I was raised in Orinda and then I, I taught school second grade

00:01:06.269 - 00:01:21.080

there, so my experience has been primary grade teaching. Then after having children, I, I, I went into the private teaching where I did had a reading center in Moraga where I taught, um, did tutoring after school kind of things which I'm still doing a lot of

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in between workshops and. So I've kind of got 33 interests here teaching, teaching children and teaching adults and, and finding how similar they both are. So and reading then has been your focus for many years, yes, yes, really has. And as a director of Total Reading,

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I watched the video, um, I can't remember the name of the woman Thompson Thomas Mary Johnston is the senior author of Total Reading and the organization it's a national organization where it's, it's a nonprofit association. It's an offshoot of the Total Reading Incorporated. In other words,

00:01:57.809 - 00:02:14.000

we We foster the teaching of reading and integration of language arts, but our goal is to teach teachers about total reading also. I mean that's, that's what we're using in these workshops is that because this program works, so it's a methodology really rather than a program

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as such we like to call it a methodology of how to teach reading. Well, good. I'm hoping to hear about that. Um, well, let's start right in then um how and when do children learn to read? OK. In my, in my estimation that children learn to

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read is earlier than we think and through what's called phonemic awareness, which is um the key buzzword today, shall we say, even from the state task where you're seeing, you're hearing this and. It's exposure to print and when you say children don't treat earlier then we

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think what have been what were our assumptions and what's proven them. Uh, there, there's still those assumptions out there that children learn to read at 6 or 7 that we shouldn't push them, that we shouldn't do it before they're ready. Uh, the more I teach, the

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longer I think that that that period between 2 and 6 and 2 and 5 when they're most um. They're ready. I mean, a lot of your learning in your entire life goes on in that period of time, so exposure to print and to story and questioning

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story content and that kind of thing, that's what I'm calling reading. I'm including that in reading rather than reading the print themselves. I mean being familiar with what what print's all about that it's telling the story and understand the connection, yes, I mean, I see 4

00:03:31.520 - 00:03:42.960

year olds. I'm working with 4 year olds now, believe it or not, which is something I thought I would never do. Because I was of the philosophy that you don't need to, let's not push kids, but I'm finding the more I do it that if a

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child is ready, it's OK. And how do you know to do it that a child is being ready is just the, the desire to want to do it and and an attention span that can handle some kind of, you know, education or some kind of um

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direction teaching as such, being able to. I hate to say being able to sit still, but sometimes that's what I'd master if you're doing a focus kind of thing, if a child is ready to do that and the teacher is geared into knowing when they're not,

00:04:09.639 - 00:04:26.119

you know, when they're out of that mode, then, um, I feel it's OK, but the main the beginning skills are just awareness that print is associated to the sounds. It starts auditorily. So what's the right way then with um I don't know if a 4 year

00:04:26.119 - 00:04:38.149

old begins in the same way that a school-age child begins to learn to read? Can you take me through that process? OK, they do, and I don't want to mislead you that I think that 4 year olds should be taught to read. I'm saying that there

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are many that, you know, that it's a very individualized. I mean if teaching of reading is very individualized, there would be a 4 year old and an 8 year old that will have exactly the same needs, and even a 6th grader and and with total reading,

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for instance, we, we do the same kinds of things with, with that 6th grader as we would do with the beginning skills with the the little one. Um, so the process is, are you asking me more what the process is where to start, um, the where

00:05:06.679 - 00:05:22.779

to start in at least in the methodology that total reading uses is oral blending and in other words, oral oral comprehension number one, while we teach the children the basics of how to read at the same time we're doing what's called read aloud. And that's reading

00:05:22.779 - 00:05:41.000

stories to kids and teaching them to listen with a questioning mind and what that means is we're teaching story content, you know, character setting, main idea, um, and all of the question is literal, evaluative and interpretive so that throughout total reading you'll see that. That when

00:05:41.000 - 00:05:57.730

we are reading stories to the kids orally, we use the same techniques that we use when the kids are reading stories themselves. So it's number one thing if if children haven't been been read to, that's that's the number one thing. I'm a big proponent of that

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that if if they need to be. Read too, so they have a purpose for reading and they know they want to do it and a and a vocabulary, the building of vocabulary um in total reading, for instance, the way we do read aloud is we present

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vocabulary totally orally, nothing on print, just orally words that may come up in the story that the child may not be familiar with. Talk about those words, use them in sentences. Then as they listen to the story, we have them raise their hands with a questioning

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where they call it we call it a little silent hand, and they listen for those words so they have a purpose for what they're listening for. So it's we're training the auditory sense. We're very big on training the auditory sense. It's a very multi-sensory program, but

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the auditory is the number one thing to start. And so by listening, the children are listening to sounds also. Then we go on to what's called oral blending, and when we teach beginning sounds we teach letter sounds rather than names. That's how we begin. We well,

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another instead of A B C D, we will teach the letter A as a a they learn the choices of of that letter right from the beginning and so that they know that if they hit a word it could have a in it, it could have

00:07:12.200 - 00:07:27.160

a in it, it could have a. And then they later when they get to the print stage, they can decipher between which one would make the word and which one would fit in context using context clues also. Um, so after, after they've learned beginning sounds, which

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we really, we're not saying that you don't need to learn letter names, a lot of the kids that we have already that we start with already know the letter names. So I often get asked, well then should we teach them the letter names? And yes, it's

00:07:40.390 - 00:07:57.549

fine. What we say is the name of the letter is is a, the name it's called A, but the sounds that it makes are. Then we move from from sounds to short to words and then from words to short sentences and then from sentences to paragraphs

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and paragraphs to short stories. But the whole thing behind this is that at the same time while all this is going on, there's this reading to them on a on a daily basis that is so that you get the context. Of what reading is all about,

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and we don't isolate them. So the um the the letter sounds that that's what's called the part to the whole to the whole approach, and what kinds of materials do you incorporate in um in your teaching? What do children see? What do they, I mean I

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some of this I saw on the video. Yes, OK, um, they see the symbol, the symbol for it. They see if the teacher introduces them total reading won't present them with lots of pictures. We do not teach Apple, for instance. Um, we teach the symbol and

00:08:47.760 - 00:09:02.820

we teach the sound, and what happens is through the lessons they get repetition, tons and tons of repetition that the simplified part of it is that the card is shown with the symbol on it. The sound is taught. They visually, they see it. They write it

00:09:02.820 - 00:09:15.219

in the air. They make the sound so that they get the body kinesthetic movement to it. They say it, they hear it, and they write it. Then a couple of days later they will work with words that possibly have that in it. So we don't believe

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in cluttering their mind with a lot of associations at the beginning part, not that they aren't, you certainly mention them, but you won't see until reading a lot of um. Other things that start with it and have all of this. It's just the initial auditory sense

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first where they hear it and they see it and then the writing the part to the whole philosophy is you may say that total reading fits, yes, because because we build, we believe in giving the tools first and then I can answer it. We were talking

00:09:46.280 - 00:10:00.960

about um the part you said you could call it a part to whole um approach. In the respect that we start from we believe in giving them the tools of how to read, um, our, our biggest thing that I'm seeing in California is the fact that

00:10:00.960 - 00:10:15.710

they're the children can mimic stories and they, they, they're excellent as far as literature and understanding story content and that kind of thing that's wonderful. I mean that's the real goodness of of the whole language. But what they can't do is read the cereal box to

00:10:15.710 - 00:10:34.400

themselves, and I'm seeing lots of kids as a result of that that are perfectly capable of reading but they don't know how to do it independently so total reading wants them to learn to read independently. Well, let's talk a little bit about how you define the

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theory or approach known as whole language. What is that? That's one thing I'm trying to get a fix on. What exactly does that comprise and how do you understand whole language? OK, as I understand whole language, it's it's exposure as far as reading is concerned. Is

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exposure to literature to to real literature to story content and to the appreciation of of literature and to integrate it within other subjects like for instance if you're doing math your your math problems should be correlated to whatever's happening in social studies and so it's an

00:11:11.099 - 00:11:28.669

integrated curriculum at the same time. Whole language to me is is sight reading as far as reading is concerned too sight reading memorizing the way things look and and seeing the whole word first rather than taking something apart and the problem or the weakness with that

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not everyone is sight learners, so it appeals more to the sight learner. It's not as multisensory as I feel as our other approaches to to reading. So and multisensory what you that's what you described even the child writing the letter. In the air, all those things

00:11:43.215 - 00:11:55.784

right, any kinesthetic kind of like writing on the arm where they give an impression to the brain. It's been proven that if they write, you know, touch some part of the body that it's going to make a connection because we don't all learn all the same

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way. Who language tends to appeal more to the child that is a visual learner when they get down to the print. Um we don't, and they do have the auditory sense that they're using because they're listening to the story and they're getting the story content. But

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there's a lot of relying on the visual and a higher percentage of the kids that we're teaching are not auditory also I mean the teacher is talking all day long and they have kids need to be trained in the auditory sense so um. I feel that

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whole language does not address as many of the learning styles as other approaches to reading. So whole language to you is an approach to literature, not an approach to reading. Is that accurate or? Mm. It's both really because the the approach to literature is is the

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goodness in it that I see is the you're getting the real literature rather than watered down so getting away from the Dick and Jane kind of books and tell me what your objections to those kind of books, um, story content number one and again those were

00:13:09.630 - 00:13:24.690

memorizing a lot of those were memorizing words that were maybe not in the children's vocabulary. But they were to make sense in the story, but the story content wasn't really there. So I feel the whole language went too far the other way. It went, it went

00:13:24.690 - 00:13:40.750

to, OK, let's give them the real stuff and the real words and I'm talking about big words, let's say for. You know we're talking about beginning readers. Well, for instance, if uh I can show you some examples of, of little stories that we hand that whole

00:13:40.750 - 00:13:54.309

language will hand children like Houghton Mifflin, for instance, is a publishing company that is a lot of schools in the state of California are using. And the stories that they will give to the beginning readers on the first few pages of a Mary wore a red

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dress, red dress, red dress, repetitive, predictable kinds of things, um, for a child that can memorize and that can visualize, then you know this is OK, but the story content is is not necessarily there any more than it was in in Dick and Jane. And the

00:14:10.640 - 00:14:25.799

Dick and Jane kind of things that I'm referring to from way back is where the stories were created for convenience and um my objection to that is is you know lack of interest on the part of the kids so whole language addressed that by by let's

00:14:25.799 - 00:14:37.299

make it more exciting for the kids. And there's got to be a little bit of both is, is what I'm saying we can't go, you know, all the way back to that and we can't go all the way, which we've done in the last 7 years,

00:14:37.460 - 00:14:54.195

the other way, so the balance is what's provided and and. Needed and total reading all along has had this kind of balance. It's had the literature at the same time giving them the tools and gradually moving them into stories, but the approach is to begin with

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the skills, to begin with the phonemic awareness and build and build on that, um. And how would you define um the literacy crisis in California? Um how extensive based on your experience here in the state and what's its nature? OK. Um, there definitely is a crisis

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number one, and I, I bristle at the thought of everything being like the teacher's fault in, in my, I can only speak from the experience that I've had and the experience that where I come from is having teachers call administrators call to total reading looking for

00:15:30.789 - 00:15:50.109

training in what's called total reading. And but calling in whispered tones, whispered tones meaning that um I'm not supposed to be talking to you because there is a phonetic component to your program and um I want to know more about it. Um, you were talking about

00:15:50.109 - 00:16:09.820

teachers who would call in whispers, uh, asking for help. Why whispers? What kind of help? The reason why they were asking is these were teachers that felt that we need both the whole language approach and a phonetic. Coding systematic instructions for kids to teach them how

00:16:09.820 - 00:16:32.119

to read. Excuse me, would you define decoding? You haven't used that being able to take sound symbol relationship and apply it to two words. So to decode is to blend words orally and auditorily and to make words out of them, whereas encoding is writing those sounds

00:16:32.119 - 00:16:50.469

and total reading does both of those. And your feeling is that whole language does not incorporate decoding skills. It's, it's there, but in, in the teacher's manuals that of all the programs that were out during this, there would be just cursorary reference to if you come

00:16:50.469 - 00:17:06.900

to such and such. There were not, um, and that's why teachers were calling because they were not in their manuals. There was not addressing the issue of how to sound out words and any, any kind of uh. Um, phonics kind of training wasn't in the books.

00:17:07.260 - 00:17:21.558

They were there, but they were minimal. And so the teacher's problem was, is being able to pull those out and how to make them sequential. Um, my, my problem with the whole language is that there was a, there was a big issue of putting things in

00:17:21.558 - 00:17:31.568

context. So if the child's asked to read something but they can't read it in the first place, how can you put it in context if you can't read it? Can you give an example? Maybe there's a book you can show me or just a you recall

00:17:31.568 - 00:17:54.109

that hang on a second. Is that um. For instance, if, if a child is handed a book like this, Snap was a little crocodile who liked lots of things, um, this is a beginning reader like this would be beginning 1st 6 months of learning how to

00:17:54.109 - 00:18:08.630

read. This might be a very beginning reader. And so if a child is handed something like this, what total reading is saying is the only way they'd be able to read it is if we read it and they. They read back to you coral kind of

00:18:08.630 - 00:18:21.069

reading. So when we look at words like this on the first page of something like the word crocodile and things and so forth, you know, those are big words that we know the child in the beginning stages is not going to be able to read that

00:18:21.069 - 00:18:38.119

word unless they memorize it because they have been, it's been modeled for them. And, and, but this, this picture is supposed to give them an idea of what exactly, exactly, and a whole language approach would be what the whole language approach relies a lot on the

00:18:38.119 - 00:18:56.140

picture clues, number one, you, you won't see that in in some of the phonetic programs. You won't see a lot of reliance on phonetic clues. We're very big on on mental images is what we call. On pictures, pictures, right, right, if you look at some of

00:18:56.140 - 00:19:10.180

the materials, you'll see that there's not a lot of pictures because the kids are making pictures themselves. The literature that they're being read to will be all the wonderful, beautiful, colorful stuff, and, and they, we are assuming that that's going on every day in a in

00:19:10.180 - 00:19:22.800

a daily lesson plan in a total reading classroom, for instance, there's going to be. what's called read aloud, so they're being exposed to all of this beautiful stuff and story content. You could, you could. Well this isn't the book you use to teach them to read.

00:19:22.880 - 00:19:35.750

No, no, that's, that's a major difference there because what we feel is like for instance right now we would like to see the state of California not go out and buy a bunch of books again. Let's use what you've already got in your classroom. They have

00:19:35.750 - 00:19:48.630

from the last 7 years. Thousands of millions of dollars' worth of books sitting that aren't being used. So what you could do with total reading is you could take those books and teach total reading at the same time and not have to have all this huge

00:19:48.630 - 00:20:02.060

expenditure of money. Um, why don't we, why do we have to keep redoing? This is a brand new one that's just coming out. This is what this is. And when I look at this, I can say. This is the same thing all over again with just

00:20:02.060 - 00:20:22.500

a cursory kind of a nod to phonics. Where's the phonics I looked at some of the materials of how they teach these little stories are wonderful and, and I, you know, I have no, no problem with those except that the. The way that the phonetics is

00:20:22.500 - 00:20:38.410

the how to read is, and again, I don't know this program, so I'm just kind of, I just kind of looked at it, is that um there will be down at the bottom of the lessons there are. are making words they will pull out from here.

00:20:38.459 - 00:20:51.329

It's, it's not as sequential. It's, it's hit and miss is what I'm, is what I'm seeing, and this is strictly a personal opinion. I've only looked at this this last week. These were sent up to me. So sequential is there's an order in there's a building

00:20:51.329 - 00:21:06.859

yes yes and hit and miss you're saying. Take skills that have been taught and learned previously and and built upon. Yeah, that's what I'm seeing and that's what my my fear is if if if the approach now is that we have to have this, you know,

00:21:06.959 - 00:21:21.050

that yes, we're supposed to be balanced, but what the fear is from whole language people is that that we will go all the way back to skill and drill. And so what I'm seeing, uh, just basically just, you know, tons and tons of dittos and that

00:21:21.050 - 00:21:33.550

kind of thing. That's what I mean, that's what I mean by skill and drill is that it's just we don't endorse that. I mean, there's a lot of teacher direction in the program that we have. There are workbooks. There are follow up workbooks, but there aren't

00:21:33.550 - 00:21:48.739

pages and pages of. Um, skill and drill, just drill, drill, drill. There are tons of drill in total reading, but it's because it's the teacher directed on a daily basis. You review what was already taught the day before. Uh, what I'm seeing on some of the,

00:21:48.849 - 00:22:03.819

I have a couple of programs, 3 different programs that I looked at and reviewed, and I'm seeing that scattered, more of a scattered approach. I I don't see a building as much. And maybe that's an unfair analysis, but I'm, I'm, I'm very fearful, and I've already

00:22:03.819 - 00:22:13.619

seen it in some of the phone calls that I'm getting that and the articles that I've seen in the newspaper that a lot of the school districts are saying, well, we've always been, we've been doing that all along. Well, in the last 7 years there's many

00:22:13.619 - 00:22:27.280

of them that have not been doing that all along because this is what was in and you have to do what was in. And so administrators were kind of told this is what you're going to do and so that's what everybody was supposed to do. And

00:22:27.280 - 00:22:42.959

unless you had a teacher who knew that you had to do both, there are many classrooms where it was just the sight approach. It basically is more of a sight approach versus a phonetic approach and um so we the last question that we started this tangent

00:22:42.959 - 00:22:58.130

on was um defining the literacy crisis in California and so you um you've been involved in schools for. Many years, more than that. What, what kinds of changes have you seen the crisis worsen then in the last seven years, and I assume you're referring to the

00:22:58.130 - 00:23:14.640

adoption of the 87 framework, right? Has the crisis changed in your mind then in the last? It's the swing back. I mean, in my, in my experience, there has been the swing back back and forth from pendulum swinging and the blame to it. That I can

00:23:14.640 - 00:23:29.319

see is really at the at the Sacramento political level and and the big publishing company level it's it's it's a business and I've seen it at the reading conventions I've seen it at meetings I've gone to that it's whoever can produce the fanciest and the prettiest

00:23:29.319 - 00:23:44.699

you tell us what we need and we'll write it. And and that that really upsets me because I think that the tried and true kinds of things that have been working all along have been kind of pushed aside in in replacement for glitz. I mean glit,

00:23:44.790 - 00:23:57.130

there's a lot of glitz out there right now and my fear is that a lot of school districts will go, they're gonna go for the glitz, and when I saw this of what's coming out, I could see that. They're providing the glitz and so this is

00:23:57.130 - 00:24:10.900

this is what this brand new, yes, that's what I call glitz and and children love it and children need it. I'm not saying that that's not, but I don't know that that's necessarily the way to teach them how to read. You can read that to them

00:24:10.900 - 00:24:27.675

and have them enjoy that and then teach them how to read at the same time. Describing as a more phonics-based approach still has changed in in its theory that it's that the scale and drill is gone, no longer practiced, and a much greater incorporation of literature,

00:24:27.714 - 00:24:44.609

but fundamentally, when children learn to read when they sit down um to learn to read and write, it's um this is not what they need, right? They need to they need to hear that they need to see it. Uh, they need to feel like they can

00:24:44.609 - 00:24:57.030

read it. That's fine. I have no problem with that, but they need to be given the tools. I just keep referring to as the tools, but, uh, so I think that what the crisis is, is that the crisis has happened because people have been convinced that

00:24:57.030 - 00:25:12.530

there's only one way to teach it, and that's what happened I think with whole language there. The other main thing is that the teacher training centers that were in the last 7 years too have have come out teaching that method and so the teachers that we

00:25:12.530 - 00:25:26.364

have in our workshops, if they're beginning year teachers have never they will come up to me afterward and they'll say I was never taught this stuff. I never taught. The schools of education and the task force addressed that too definitely that we have to do something

00:25:26.364 - 00:25:41.920

about that they've got to know how children learn to read and how to how to start it uh so that they can have that balance in their classrooms so I see that as part of the crisis that. But I really, I blame it a lot on

00:25:41.920 - 00:26:00.920

what was sold to the state of California and it's sold by by publishing companies. My understanding of the way that works is that it's the publishers who are sort of checking out all the political currents and then responding. Exactly. So who, where did the push for

00:26:00.920 - 00:26:16.677

the shift to the To the 87 framework come from? What was the basis for that? Well, a lot of the, a lot of the research was saying that we weren't doing enough about story content and that we weren't getting enough and that was valid, valid, but

00:26:16.677 - 00:26:30.433

I think we just went too far into it. I mean, the research showed that kids could maybe decode but they couldn't tell you about a story, so. So that was right. Yes, let's plug this in. And so when the state of California wrote the framework, they

00:26:30.433 - 00:26:43.284

had that in there that we need to be doing these things and a lot of it was misinterpreted. It was misinterpreted because it is there if you really look at it, but it was taken too far one way. Well, it's funny because that's I've heard a

00:26:43.284 - 00:27:01.071

very similar analysis from people who describe themselves as whole language. Teachers who say we use phonics who say, you know, no good teacher will abandon any tool, but I disagree with that because I've seen a lot of teachers that have abandoned it or never had it

00:27:01.071 - 00:27:15.191

in the first place and they're they're giving lip service to the point that there were some articles that came out locally of of districts that I know very well because I've dealt with them and they're now their superintendents and their teachers are saying, oh well, we

00:27:15.191 - 00:27:29.489

always did that. But they didn't. The teachers that that did do it have since called me and said, you know, this is a bunch of baloney, but because of I might lose my job if I don't do da da da da da. I mean that's. I

00:27:29.489 - 00:27:45.770

see it as politics. I really do. Some of the biggest whole language classrooms were the ones that are now coming out and saying, oh well, I always did that all along. That is, I always incorporatedonics, and I questioned that they really did because I am privately

00:27:45.770 - 00:28:00.853

teaching many of the students that are results of this, um, children that have been wonderful stories. Content I mean they really know stories and they can read stories backwards and forwards by memorizing and if you point to a word they haven't got a clue what it

00:28:00.853 - 00:28:12.243

is. So when you say they can read, it's like when I when before my children learn to read and I would, there would be a story that I would have read over and over again, they could sort of mimic what you mean. Yes, and that's good.

00:28:12.292 - 00:28:23.135

That makes them feel good about themselves, but that is we're talking about 2nd and 3rd graders that that's all they could do and by then they should be on their own. To pick up a book and if you take a word out of that book and

00:28:23.135 - 00:28:36.015

put it over here it's like they've never seen it and I don't mean to be sounding so negative whole language because I don't mean to be and what I'm saying is that there's so much good in whole language that if you have the complement of a

00:28:36.015 - 00:28:45.895

sequential system at the same time you've got the best of all worlds. I just keep checking because I'm afraid the tape's gonna run out and I won't see it and then I'll lose what I'm so I think what I'm gonna.