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Testing, testing, testing, testing, testing. OK, uh, this is Harvey Schwartz. I'm in Vallejo, California. This is 16 May 1997. And I'm with uh Stanley uh Lathan, it's L A T H E N. And um this uh interview will be part of the Labor Archives collection and

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um of San Francisco State University, the Labor Archives and Research Center and um it's being sponsored by the um. Napa and Solano County, uh, counties labor council and Stan, uh, can I ask you a little bit about your background, when you were born, where you were

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born? Yeah. I know you're born in Arizona. Yes, it was a territory at that time. Back in 1908. Became a state in 2012. And my father was a rancher. At that time And he had 80 acres there and had a Uh, dairy And now it's right

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in the city of Phoenix. But we're not there, of course, right, right, right. How long did you live on that ranch? Well, I was born there and we left. He sold out about 2.5 years after I was born and moved to Yukaya. California and We used

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in Yukaya for several years. And then he moved us to Lake County. Can I ask you where your uh where your relatives came from, where your dad's relatives and your mom's relatives came from? Uh, you mean as immigrants. As immigrants as far as we can tell.

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was the lineage of the Background of our grandparents, great grandparents, they were Germans. Uh, I know from what I've been able to gather. That one of the great grandfathers was came over on the same shipment they say he did with Lord Baltimore and landed there. That's

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where they got that. Name Baltimore. Uh But he was uh from the black forest of Germany. And uh he was a Catholic. Believe it or not, and uh There was no Germans down in Maryland. They were all up in Pennsylvania. And it took him 3 months

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to get from Maryland to Pennsylvania I guess walking I don't know how he got there. And uh that was the background of at least one of my great grandparents and I don't know the history of the others. Our family was not much on historians. And uh

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I think I've done more of that in trying to ferret out uh at a later time than what we're talking about. And get some background which I do have but uh it's it. Basically our whole family was German. He got up to, uh, uh, Pennsylvania and

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ran into the Dutch up there and it was all Lutherans. But, but when, what, what year was that approximately? Oh, I don't know, uh, because I've only had 3 great grandfathers. Uh, they all lived a long life. I don't understand it. In those days they used

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to die early. The grandfather, my grandfather, I never met him. He was dead before I was born, believe it or not, and he lived to be 90. And in 1944, I was a delegate to the Democratic convention in Chicago. And I went out to Fort Wayne,

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Indiana to visit with my cousin, which I've never met. And uh Uh He took me around, showed me some of the old homesteads where my folks and grandparents and so forth. And uh there's one on my mother's side, uh, her parents, they had a very beautiful

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two-story home still there in 1944. Well kept sitting on the bluff of the Saint Joe River and there was an intersection there rivers. I don't remember the other names. And uh he took me out to the graveyard. They all, those old timers had their own graveyards

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on a knoll if you know anything about Indiana. It's wooded spots and they tore the wood down. They left all also left something in, in, in wood forest and as you see it all across Indiana. And his uh uh cemetery was there and his grandpa and

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he's got 3 wives lined up. He outlived 3 wives. Imagine that. So that's kind of the history of that. Yeah. Do you know where your mom's parents came from? No, they, uh, background of Germans and they come from Germany. My mother and father could speak German.

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But uh they never did unless as kids would needle them. You know, to speak German and they didn't, they spoke English, they didn't like to speak German. And uh Well, Germany, Germany didn't have too good reputation, never did and even uh uh myself growing up I

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disliked the Germans. They started two World War and and they're fatheads and I didn't like it, you know. Yeah. They do come in a group on occasion, yes. Huh? They do come in a group on occasion. I don't know Whether they come in a group or

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not, you know, I mean in our, you know, armies anyway, um. OK, um. What was your dad doing in Yukaya? Really, I don't know what he did at Nukaya. I have no idea. I was pretty young, didn't pay too much attention to that. Uh, when he

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moved over to Lake County, he had a little ranch over there. But his main uh Thing in life was hunting and fishing. And Arizona just didn't give you much. Of that and that's why I wanted to get to Northern California. So we were up there a

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few years on several different uh ranches. And then what kind of, what kind of um things were grown on the ranch? What, what kind of uh um work was done around the ranch? What kind of what what do you raise produce and so forth? Oh, it

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was just produce and uh. Always had Uh, regular farm animals, horses, cattle, uh. And uh Oh, different, different always chicken, turkeys and things like that, you know, Nanny was a great hunter and those days there was no such a thing as licenses really. It was no

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laws and you lived off some land you go out and shoot deer deer around you shot to eat you didn't shoot it just to kill deer. And uh We had an awful lot of deer meat. Everybody else did. All the farmers. What kind of work did

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you do around the ranch yourself? Oh man. That's really embarrassing to even mention it. My father believed that everybody had to work no matter if he was in the cradle yet, you know. And when we were little. All the children As they come along, you got

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up, we get you up at 5 o'clock in the morning. Get out and do the chores, you know. And you did the chores. You fed the chickens and pigs and the whole thing. And uh I was too small to milk any cows, but I had to

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get the chips in and the kindling for the. For the stove, you know, start. All of this, it's a little embarrassing. Why is it embarrassing? Oh. I tell you a life you had to live and I see what. Happens today or during the time that I

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was growing up later on. It was a different world that I lived in. And uh until I got down to Marin County, yeah, but, but I mean why is it embarrassing? It just sounds like farm life. What, why does it strike you as embarrassing? It just

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sounds like. Living in a farm life. We were uh Let's put it this way. My father was a kind of a slave driver. He was too severe with us. And uh I hate to say it, but He was severe enough with us. In this, in that

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manner. That we just lost our love for him. And that's a bad thing. Uh But we Did the work. I don't know if you know anything about planting corn. You got acres out there you got a plant. You do it by hand. You got a corn

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planter. It's a contraption. It has a sharp. Two lips at the bottom works on a. Leverage And handles up here. And you fill this thing up in the middle full of seed corn. And you start out, you make a step, you push it down the ground

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and you push this way. And so many great. Now, as a kid. That's pretty rough. But I had to do it. My sister had to do it. The other kids had to do it too. I see. Yeah, so I was a little bit rough, yes, it

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sounds like, but uh. He could raise crops when nobody else could. That man knew how to raise crops, anything. And uh the vegetable crops used to raise of course and sell to the all the resorts in Lake County. And to other people, you know, I see.

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What was his name? Daniel And my name Lathan. For the record I had That Was my middle name. The superior court judge up here. Moved that middle name to the last name. I eliminated my last name. My last name was named Sapp. I see. But what

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was it again? It was uh what was, what was your last name? Sapp, S A P P S A P P and I had so many fights and embarrassments in school. When I was growing up over that name because those days they had a comic strip

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called Cicero. And uh So before my sons, well that was later 22 sons were born. And I said to my wife, The time has come when I'm gonna change my name. Because I'm not gonna put those boys through what I went through. And she says, well,

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it's up to you. We've lived with it. I married you with that name. And whatever you want to do so. Roe Davis and I went up to court and In those days I was executive officer of the union. And uh Judge said to Roe Davis he

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was making some speech of some kind. Judge says, ah. Forget it, says Stanley wants to change his name. That's his business. Order done, you know, like that. Uh, we had a good relationship with the courts in those days, man. Now what, what kinds of scrapes had

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you gotten in as a kid with in school? In school, well, just kids raised us. We all hell with him insulting you all the time, making insulting remarks. And if you're a sensitive kid, which I was unfortunately. I just couldn't take it, you know. Were they

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making fun of your name? Do, do I, were they making fun of your name? Oh yes, because of the name, because it was a German name. Is that why? No, that was, uh, that wasn't even a German name. That was an interpretation when that part of

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the family got over here. I see. And there was no at that time back in that time there was no problem with the name of Sapp. And as you look in the telephone book San Francisco there's pages of them they just made, they made fun just

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because it's the it said sap. That's right. And I didn't want boys run through the same thing. I understand fully. So later on we had a third child and uh. But uh so it made it much easier, let's put it that way, much easier because I

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was exposed later on to the public, you know, constantly and in the businesses I was in work. When, when did you have your name changed about what year approximately? Uh, it was, uh, I would say around 1950-951 in there. Let me, let me ask you, your,

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your, um, um. You're uh Yeah, your brothers and sisters. How many brothers and sisters did you have when your, when your dad was ranching? When you're growing up in Lake County. Mother and father raised to manhood and womanhood 12 children. I'm the last one on the

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line. My goodness, 12 children. Altogether there was 15. Three of them passed away as babies. The oldest of the three was 3 weeks old, come down with pneumonia or something. My goodness. What was your mom's name again? Uh, Nettie. OK, Nettie was her first name. Did

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he, did. Was your dad interested in politics at all? None, none, but he was a Democrat. Yeah. And in Indiana during the Civil War. Uh, you know, Indiana was all right. It wasn't a Southern state, and he was a Democrat. But uh and so was my

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mother and she was a liberal progressive Democrat and you she wouldn't think of voting for a republican. Was she active at all in politics? No, no, except to participate, vote, get the kids to vote. Now let's see if you, if you did. Was your dad in

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the Civil War in Indiana? No, I don't know his exact birth date. Uh, he was either born during the Civil War. Or right after the Civil War or just before the Civil War in that yeah now let's put it together as I understand it, he died

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when he was 70. Go ahead. I'm gonna adjust this just a little. 73. I think he was 73. And that was in 1934. When he passed away. So you'd have to go back, you know. What whatever it is. But it was sometime around the Civil War

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days thereafter and my mother was 10 years younger than he was. Now, why did he move from um Um, Lake County to Marin County. Well, prior to moving there was a Uh, problem in the family and Unfortunately or unfortunately which the case may be. And There

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were only 2 of us left at home. My sister Jeanette was next to me and myself. And my mother, my father. My mother divorced my father. And so we went down to Marin County at the request of children that was down in Marin County already. Did

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the children left? They left early. They were, oh yeah, they were unhappy living. No, they were growing up and they were growing, went off and got married and other things. You mentioned a problem. You don't have to go into it if you don't want to, but

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you know, do you? You mentioned there had been, there was a problem. You don't have to go into that if you don't want to, but if you want to, no, I don't want to. OK, so everybody goes down. Well, you, you go down to, uh, yeah,

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just my mother and And uh my sister and myself went down to Marin County, but my sister Georgie. Who was married to Lester Smith. And they lived in Sausalita. And he was a Uh, engineer on the ferry boats. He was previously In the army And during

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the 1906 earthquake. He was on duty Uh, because of the thieves and Looters, yeah, and he was on duty, but uh So he lived down there. Later on they moved up to San Anselmo. And bought a home up there. And we moved to Santa Selmo. Because,

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uh, my one of my brothers. Who was a Later, state highway engineer. Uh, self-made man, I might say. And he and my mother got together and we'd worked up there, Jeannette and I and mother. And the savings we let her take all the money, put it

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in the bank and uh that savings with what he contributed with we bought a A house over in San Selmo. I see. Now, about what year is this that you, you moved down to Marin County? 1921. 1921. OK. Uh, you're still a youngster. Do you go

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to school? Are you going to school? Oh yeah. Oh, I had to go to school, so I moved down there. We moved down there around Christmas time. I had to go to school there. Um, did you, what schools did you go to in Marin County? Sanselmo

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Elementary School. And then I grew up. Uh, graduated from there. And then By that time I had to start looking out for myself. And By the time I was 15, I Completely on my own. And so I had to go to night school for a couple

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of years, high school up in San Rafael. But uh I wanted to learn the trade because I knew I was handicapped in getting a good education. So, uh, And I also thought about my brother Doc. His name was Daniel, but they call him Doc. Because he

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was a self-made man. And he Took all the tests that the highway department had and he passed all those tests. And went up finally as state highway. Resident engineer. And when the Golden Gate Bridge was built. He, his work was on the other side of the

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bridge. He was in charge of building that down 19th Avenue. All that, the tunnel, the whole thing over that side. Yeah, but he was, he could figure that man could figure that most beautiful figures. You ever did see I tell you I just marvel at the

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way he can figure and how he put those figures down. His 4 was marked like this, you know, on an angle, triangle. Oh, beautiful, and so. Uh, that gave me encouragement. I said to myself, well, hell, I can't get a good education. Uh I'll do the

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next best I want to get a trade. And uh I Worked at that too getting uh And then on the trade, what, what was your brother's name, by the way, the one who could write so well, make figures so well. His name was Daniel Sapp. OK,

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that's right, you had mentioned that, um, OK, how did you go about, um, getting into the, um, um, plasters and, uh, cement mason's union? Well I was working for Mr. Wright who owned a Santa someone lumber yard. Uh, I worked for him and a half dozen

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more wherever there's work at all. I was there. What can you just briefly describe the different kinds of work you did as a teenager before you started the apprenticeship program? Well, When I send up my Elementary school Uh, I will. Worked for a butcher at Lansdale.

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That's one of the stations of the Northwestern Pacific. And uh I worked for this butcher shop and this one butcher. $3 a week. As soon as school was out, I was headed for that job. And on Saturdays, Saturdays, and, and on when I get there I

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deliver the meat with a bicycle and a basket out front. $50 a week. Good old days. And uh from there. I, uh Uh, I did just about every kind of a job wherever there was a place to make a buck, you know. Uh, I remember before

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that, uh, it was a goat ranch, but Not even a block from our home. It was up on the side of a hill. And uh I got a chance to earn 2 dozen eggs a week. By cleaning out the goat barn. As a kid. Yeah, it's

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time for tough. Yeah, times are tough. It went from one thing to another, uh, but in working at the lumber yard off and on, on call, I was bucking what they call bucking lumber out of the the railroad cars. Now these weren't flat cars, these were.

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Had one door And uh His son was A little older than I was, not much. But his son is already graduated from high school. In fact, graduated from Louisville in San Francisco. Because they come from San Francisco. And he And I worked in there. Jeez, it

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was a tough job for kids. What we'd wrestle that heavy lumber out of that damn cars, you know, and I said to Mr. Wright, you know, I wanna learn a trade. I says I'm not getting an education. I've got, I want to get ahead. And he

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says, Sammy says you're a good worker. And he says, I'll see what I can do. So some weeks later he said to me, You know I can get you a job driving. A truck For 6 months For a plastering contractor. And uh He tells me that's

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what he needs right now, but if he can get a lad that would be a good worker. He'd give them every opportunity. So I went over to see that man and he says, yes, you can go to work for me. He says 5.5 days a week.

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But uh for $18 a week. OK. And I worked for him for 6 months. And came Friday. He paid off on Friday instead of Saturday, oh no, he paid me off, he paid me off Friday night. And By Saturday morning he disappeared. He didn't pay the

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other men. He left town in the middle of the night. And they said, how did you get your pay? I said, don't ask me. I didn't do anything to get he come attitude. So another passing contractor named of Andrew Tennant. Scotchman from the old country. An

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alcoholic, but one hell of a mechanic, you know, most of those alcoholics top mechanics, I don't know. And he sent his stepson out to see me a week after this all happened. My stepson told me, he says. But, uh, And he wanted to see me on

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a job. Oh boy, I didn't lose any time getting down there to see him. And he says, yeah, he says, I'll put you to work. Learn to trade $24 a week. Boy. As I hustle And so I worked for Andrew Tennant. Uh, and he Uh, trained

00:27:15.520 - 00:27:38.690

me and taught me and was good to me. Because uh he didn't like his stepson. I had nothing to do with that. But he didn't like the stepson for whatever reason. And those were the days when Maxwell Car Maxwell. Was really a delightful car. I don't

00:27:38.690 - 00:27:58.550

know if you ever heard of one, but I've heard of it. And he bought a brand new Maxwell had a. Uh Red Maxwell. Beautiful looking little thing. And he sent it over to San Francisco. In San Francisco, they had a top shop over there. That used

00:27:58.550 - 00:28:20.470

to build and close the damn thing in and made a sedan out of it. Close it down and those were sliding doors. It worked like a charm. And boy. And then I became the chauffeur. Because he drank and he didn't want to drive. So I was

00:28:20.470 - 00:28:34.050

a chauffeur for him and his wife in addition to learning the trade. And those were the days where there was no unions over there or anyplace else. Well, they had a union in San Francisco, but you get back to the American plan. You'd mentioned, yeah, you'd

00:28:34.050 - 00:28:54.940

mentioned this, um, relative to the American plan, and you'd mentioned something about, um, it, it being 50%, uh, union and 50% scab, non-union scab, yeah, right. Well, in Merton County. We, we didn't have a union. And I worked with a fellow named Heidinger, and he had

00:28:55.000 - 00:29:15.270

been a union pastor someplace. I don't recall now. And he said to me he's working partners and he said, you know, no reason why we don't have a union here, must organize one. Well, that sounded good to me. And I didn't know anything about unions, but

00:29:15.270 - 00:29:30.220

I knew it was better than being non-union anyway. How did you know that? Some people don't, don't ever figure that out. How did you figure that out? How to figure it out by studying. Reading, thinking, what were you reading? What were you reading? Anything that I

00:29:30.220 - 00:29:48.980

could get my hands on it affected the working people. And how to get ahead, you know. So we invited all of these people in Mid County, the plasters to a meeting up in San Rafael over the old Star Theater. I can remember it so well, but

00:29:48.980 - 00:30:11.280

what year was this that this is happening? Oh, what year would that be? Jesus. God, it has to be between 1921 and 1929, right? Because in 1929 you, you, you went to the Teamsters. So it doesn't have to be between the two. It was Well, it

00:30:11.280 - 00:30:31.600

was about 3 years before I left there, yeah, maybe 1926 or close. Yeah, somewhere in that area there. Yeah. Oh it had to be in 1926 or before. Well, you, you said in 1929 when the Depression came, you went over to the Teamsters Union, yeah, but

00:30:31.600 - 00:30:47.530

in 19. 26. I got married in 1927, so it was before 27, so it had to be 1926 in that area. OK, um, Stanley, I would like to, uh, turn the tape over. We're reaching toward the end here. We're gonna call this the end of side

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too.