00:00:02.019 - 00:00:17.930

You know the Spanish Civil War was occurring until after. Where she was walking in in the winter and there were lines of people lined up shouting and shouting at them and it was during the depression of course and they were shouting at the rich and mom

00:00:17.930 - 00:00:38.279

was couldn't understand why they were shouting so she was fairly well isolated insulated from. The uh Depression, uh, it caused quite a furor when they wanted to get married because dad was Jewish and mom was at least their family was Presbyterian. And um. There are a

00:00:38.279 - 00:00:53.639

lot of stories on that which we know, but, uh, the bottom line is they wound up having two marriages, one on one side of uh Detroit and one on the other for the Presbyterians and one for the Jews and uh. Her father for a long time

00:00:53.639 - 00:01:09.419

really could not forgive her for that transgression and of course when over the years his dad became more and more political uh he couldn't forgive her for that transgression and that echoed through our family though uh. There was a rapprochement. You want to turn this off

00:01:09.419 - 00:01:31.819

for one second so. So that's where they came from, uh. And how did they, uh, what, what were the events that politicized them after their marriage? Well, I think what politicized dad was um. His They moved to California and he was writing, I think in Laguna

00:01:31.819 - 00:01:47.599

Beach. And I think he made some friendships from people who were on the left in the party. He began to learn about the Spanish Civil War. And they asked Dad to drive an ambulance across the country to raise funds for the war, and then eventually the

00:01:47.599 - 00:02:11.779

ambulance was supposed to go to Spain. Um, I think that's where he learned not only about the politics of it, but. Yeah, but also, and something which was to echo throughout his life. Which was the people, not just the people involved in the party. But the

00:02:11.779 - 00:02:29.039

supposed reasons the party existed, the, the small towns he would pull into while driving the ambulance and the poor people who would pull together money to help in the, the struggle, but would. We're not the bigwigs for instance that were back in Hollywood. Dad was an

00:02:29.039 - 00:02:50.619

extremely rebellious person and I think that. That translated into his relationship somewhat somehow with the party also in the sense that I think it's a point at several points throughout his life it came or maybe echoed entirely throughout his life that, uh, a lot of the

00:02:50.619 - 00:03:15.080

party hierarchy was more interested in politics unquote than in social change. And he rebelled against that and his first rebellion was was was he drove by his rebellion was, he was always rebelling against his own class. Uh, his, he was his, they were quite well off.

00:03:15.210 - 00:03:39.860

Um, his mother, his father was an architect. Uh, one of the, one of the architects that built, uh, the, the, the Oakland Bay Bridge, Hoover Dam. Uh relation to Louisa, the architect. I think no, no, forget it. No relation to Felix Conn, there's a Felix Conn

00:03:39.860 - 00:03:55.520

Park in in San Francisco. Felix, uh, was the, I think, well, they were, they were partners and they were industrial architects. They designed all of Ford's factories. Dad's father went over to the Soviet Union right after the revolution because they asked him to help design their

00:03:55.520 - 00:04:19.369

factories because they'd seen what he'd done and he's, he came back with pictures and he was impressed with the revolution, but he wasn't politically active person. Uh, My father's mother, uh, was swept off her feet. This, this architect was in Detroit, walked into a Woolworths, I

00:04:19.369 - 00:04:39.970

think, to buy some candy, and there was this woman behind the county who was counter who was a, uh, quite. Um, well, she was very beautiful. She was beautiful until she died, and but she was not sophisticated, um. She was not, uh, of his class at

00:04:39.970 - 00:04:57.600

all and um. He took her back to England. And where they were, she had, she was one of the people who had teas with ladies in waiting to the queen and things like this, and I mean, frankly, she was never quite the same afterwards. Well, is

00:04:57.600 - 00:05:16.739

she the one that your mother mentioned as, um, I guess that. She supported or sent money to the family, to your family, and she was described as the red and sables constantly. Well, no, that was someone else I think. Uh, that was, that was another, I

00:05:16.739 - 00:05:33.480

don't remember that, but I would think that would have been Sarah Gordon, but that's another story of a wonderful, wonderful person. Uh, but it may have been Dad's mom, but she was certainly not red. I think that it was the context I remember from the story

00:05:33.480 - 00:05:54.720

that your mother told was about um the trip that they'd made to the Soviet Union that that your grandfather and grandmother had made during that time at my grandfather. I don't think grandma went. That's my understanding. But um Dad, I think a lot of his rebelliousness

00:05:54.720 - 00:06:14.190

came from his family relations. There were 3 daughters and Dad. Uh It was a dysfunctional family if you want to use current jargon in the sense that uh She was once she hit England and even afterwards she was very. She was, she was a one lovely

00:06:14.190 - 00:06:28.880

person, but she was interested in society and there was the there was the nanny and she would come into that would say like the the time the time he saw her when she would come in, uh, take a look to make sure his ears were clean

00:06:28.880 - 00:06:50.489

before he went to sleep. And um there was a lot of friction throughout his life and uh the family there were a lot of. At least all the sisters were. Somewhat um impacted by this, and of course Dad was. But it wasn't a At least with

00:06:50.489 - 00:07:09.839

his mother and at least one sister, it wasn't a hateful. Relationship he was very hostile at times and with both his sister and his mother. Uh, And I've seen the seen. This anger boiled to the top. Uh, but at the same time his mother would come

00:07:09.839 - 00:07:23.320

and spend months with us at the house, and we'd love to see her come and there was never any all your mother's, your grandmother's coming. She's terrible stuff, just the opposite, and we had a lot of fun with her and also with dad's sister Betty, who

00:07:23.320 - 00:07:44.399

died, interestingly she died and then he died 6 months later. And she was a very, very, very good person. He was, uh, she was a person also he had to respect, I think, because she was socially involved, um, quite well off in Chicago, very well off.

00:07:45.290 - 00:08:05.089

And yet She was a teacher and she chose to teach in the inner city and walked, walked to work until she got cancer and um. She was not quote political unquote yet she was highly political in the true sense of the term, so uh yeah and

00:08:05.089 - 00:08:25.220

uh. She was a wonderful person anyway, uh, his rebellion, his rebelliousness might have come one from the way he was treated when he was growing up. And Uh, I think largely in regard to that, but it, it translated throughout his life into other things. And he

00:08:25.220 - 00:08:43.330

didn't often rebel just for the sake of rebelling. When he saw something he considered unjust. He said something or did something about it, so he was rebellious throughout his life, not only with his with the with the society but with with uh within his own parties

00:08:44.140 - 00:09:02.239

and uh. So we have them in Laguna Beach and your father is writing and they take this fundraising trip for Spain um and how long did they stay in California um and was. Uh, well, they came back to California from what I understand after the fundraising

00:09:02.239 - 00:09:23.409

trip. It was very, it was ill-conceived. Uh, the ambulance, there was a lot of. Uh, Fanfare with the ambulance going and the stars' names written on the side. In fact, we just, oh, you saw that that Pat had gotten printed. Well, um, the ambulance couldn't run,

00:09:24.000 - 00:09:39.090

often broke down, and they would write back and Dad would write back saying hey to the guys who are running it, you know, this is, this is totally wrong. Uh, you're not, I can't remember the letters, but they were just, I've read them recently in the

00:09:39.090 - 00:10:05.169

and I know that he and Mom both were quite disturbed because of the fact that. The people who were, who thought the ambulance was a wonderful idea. Didn't really Understand how to. Really campaign with it organized the organized communities to where it was going. And um

00:10:08.859 - 00:10:21.880

so it was a fiasco. It's interesting because for Nicaragua there were so many of those kinds of campaigns, you know, driving a truck with supplies down but they were they were very well organized, they worked. One came out of this city right here or several. Several

00:10:24.169 - 00:10:42.770

So how long did they stay in California? Um, that's a good question. I can't remember, uh, I, and I don't know, as a matter of fact. I know that they stayed in California. quite some time. Uh, Where did dad move to? I don't know if they

00:10:42.770 - 00:10:59.309

ever moved to Detroit, but there's a movie that was in California. Hi Pat. When your father obviously and his work with. Raising money for the Spanish Civil War. What was working with me with party members. Did he join the party at that time? I don't know.

00:10:59.640 - 00:11:22.200

I don't know whether he joined the party at that time or not. In fact, that's always been. Um, The hazy part of my knowledge, I know that they went from California. Perhaps straight to the east coast because he started editing a newsletter called The Hour. Uh,

00:11:22.429 - 00:11:44.489

about Nazi espionage and propaganda, yeah, right, uh, particularly Nazi espionage, but anyway, um. I really don't know a lot of the, you'd have to talk to mom about where they moved. OK, so um when um you were born in 41, and this, so that must have

00:11:44.489 - 00:12:01.559

been around the time of the special war was in the late 30s, so um you were born not long after they came back, came back or, yeah, I should think so. Um, and what, how did you become aware of your parents' political activities and beliefs um.

00:12:02.090 - 00:12:35.750

I became aware first of all through osmosis and uh. Oh sure, I, um. I just feel funny holding this thing up to my mouth. Um, Dad was Um, just imbued. With the myth. Of the struggle for freedom. And they miss in uh any pejorative way or

00:12:35.750 - 00:13:00.799

do you mean it as a powerful. Symbol I mean it's a powerful symbol and um. He brought me up when I was young that way, um, just to give you so so the way I became aware was. Largely through dad's. Uh, in the beginning through stories

00:13:01.059 - 00:13:26.510

and examples. And also by the friends, his friends who frequented the house, but that came. Later, the first part and then of course my real awareness in the sense of. The realities of That belief within this culture. I would say became Grossly apparent in the 5th

00:13:26.510 - 00:13:42.580

grade. That was when McCarthy started. No, we were, when they moved first they moved, I think, I don't know where they moved from, but they moved to a place called Yorktown Heights. In fact, I got pictures of it here if you ever want to see them

00:13:43.190 - 00:14:02.929

and um from New Yorktown Heights they moved to a place called Croton on the Hudson. And That's where I grew up. They were moved from New York City to to New Yorktown Heights and from New Yorktown Heights to Croton on the Hudson. Uh, but anyway, Dad.

00:14:04.020 - 00:14:26.289

I'll just give you a couple of examples of the stuff that I lived with, which was. Um, There was one and Dad often spoke about the Jewish struggle and the struggle for for justice, and he often talked to me about racism and used examples, and this

00:14:26.289 - 00:14:38.270

was part of my life and I when I was in preschool, everyone has to sing a little song, you know, they stand up and everyone has their own song. I stood up and I sang the Soviet national anthem and they called home. And they said, hey,

00:14:38.450 - 00:14:54.989

we got to talk to you about your son. Something is something is happening that we're not sure is good for him. Uh, there was another time, uh, in which Dad was sitting on my bed telling me a nighttime story. He was telling me the story of

00:14:54.989 - 00:15:23.070

Moses, uh. While he was not um practicing or very religious person, Jewish person, he believed passionately in the struggle and the Jewish struggle though he did not at all uh. Believe in what what is going down and what went down in Israel. Um, yeah, and so

00:15:23.070 - 00:15:37.200

he told me the story of Moses and. His flight and the story of how he crossed the Red Sea and the waters parting and. He got Dad told me about how they got to the other side and. He said, and Pharaoh's army was coming through the

00:15:37.200 - 00:15:49.150

through the, the place where Moses walked across and what do you think happened? And I looked at him and I said, well, that's simple, and of course that took him back. He said, what do you mean it's simple? And I said, well, the Red Army came.

00:15:50.280 - 00:16:07.950

So that's the, that is how I, I mean that that is how I initially became aware uh I can remember sitting on WEB Du Bois' lap and Du Bois was as big a hero to me as was Pee Wee Reese or Jackie Robinson. And how did

00:16:07.950 - 00:16:29.390

Du Bois happen to come to be in your home? Uh, I actually that was in his office, but he and my father were very close friends and worked together in various endeavors, um. And Well, yeah, they were close friends, so I mean um. Fundraisers for uh

00:16:29.799 - 00:16:50.090

various defense. Things in the South were held in the family house. Uh, Steve Nelson always came. I was named after Steve Nelson. I, and so Steve was, I was Steve, he was Steve. In fact, I still have Steve Nelson's 90th anniversary in my room, the, the

00:16:50.090 - 00:17:15.079

announcement, and uh I, I found that very important to me. It's one of the things I've kept, um. So there was always something happening in the house. What did you understand your father's work to be? I understood my father wrote. At that time. He was gone

00:17:15.079 - 00:17:31.400

an awful lot, you know, he was in the World Peace Council, so he was always traveling and um. In a strange way though, he was very antagonistic about the way and and highly affected by the way he'd been brought up, he was doing the same thing

00:17:31.400 - 00:17:52.160

in some ways to his own family. World Peace Congress, the Soviet Union. I can remember him coming home and bringing me some stones from the Warsaw Ghetto. Uh, But he was always on the move, always on the move. And um this was even before. He had

00:17:52.160 - 00:18:09.359

been blacklisted long before, so it wasn't just like movement for survival because after he was blacklisted, he had to do a lot of movement just to survive wheeling, dealing projects, etc. etc. but this was before that he this was this was intensity and and it's translated

00:18:09.359 - 00:18:31.479

itself into every member of his family, every son of his, not into mom. Uh, In that All of us, Tim, Brian and I are very active in terms of projects and and uh. And Well, I wanna say, well, well just projects are very active and pulling

00:18:31.479 - 00:18:51.770

things together and juggling a variety of projects and being active in what we do anyway, uh, after, after Dad, um. After that little episode where I was growing up and then I became more and more and more aware through the through people within the family, uh,

00:18:51.780 - 00:19:11.180

one of the uh one of the. Major impacts I think and I still can remember it was the Julius, uh the the Rosenbergs, uh. You would have been 12 then they were executed in 53, so. Yeah and um I went I was I was at a

00:19:11.180 - 00:19:27.780

lot of protests. I remember a lot of what went down fundraising, etc. etc. it was a grim, grim time. Were you afraid at that time for your parents? I've been never afraid for my parents. How did, how did they talk to you about what was happening

00:19:27.780 - 00:19:51.699

and how did they uh. I don't, they never tried to prevent my fears, never to that I can remember, uh. And that because it, because there was a, it's an unbalanced type of thing. They were, they were in the thick of this struggle. Now they both

00:19:51.699 - 00:20:09.160

cared about us a lot and really raised us. Compared to other Where I I consider myself and. My brothers to a lesser extent because they weren't as politically affected as I was, as somewhat of a survivor, not a casualty, and I have a lot of friends

00:20:09.160 - 00:20:32.209

who are casualties of that era. Um. What makes a survivor and what makes a casualty? Drugs, um. A disoriented life, and I don't mean someone without purpose. That's fine. Uh, but a, a person who is unhappy, uh, perhaps an alcoholic, dysfunctional, and they can't relate to

00:20:32.209 - 00:20:54.979

other people who are very, very fragile, uh Well, I'll tell you what I think created survival on me. I am not, I can't tell you what creates this because I mean survivors can be real tough like Rockwell Kent and be also very. Well, mean, uh, Rockwell,

00:20:55.260 - 00:21:21.560

his interpersonal relationships was hard as nails, but he was a survivor. Uh, I think what were my. Um, my survival came from belief in human beings. And, uh, not belief in the struggle, but belief in people. All kinds of people. Well, there are people who can

00:21:21.560 - 00:21:44.989

believe in the Red Army, uh, the triumph of communism or socialism, uh, revolution. To the to the front, uh, union organizing. If that belief is not Does not sit upon a foundation of belief in people and a love for people in life it's a fragile thing

00:21:44.989 - 00:22:03.300

because you can get knocked off it very easily, I think and um. I think that's what happened to a lot of people. When the when the in our in the party when a lot of purges occurred. The party then was shown up for more of a

00:22:03.310 - 00:22:26.199

a hierarchy in terms of religion and social stature within it than it was as an organism dedicated to helping people to progress and to real progress. Whether you I mean whether it be for a mechanic or or a or a professor well. It's based on humanism,

00:22:26.260 - 00:22:50.270

and I think Dad before he was a communist, was a humanist. And I think that's why I survived. Um, Then of course there are people who tell you I didn't survive. Well. Well, um. Were all your friends uh active No, no, as a matter of fact,

00:22:50.349 - 00:23:08.300

that is one of the reasons again for survival and that dad was constantly reaching out to people who are not party members, uh, and holding people up like that as heroes we can and that that was where the dichotomy occurred because holding up constantly holding up

00:23:08.300 - 00:23:23.260

people as heroes was not good either. Uh, and later on, at least I, I don't know about my brothers, had to struggle with the fact that we weren't dealing with gods all the time, we were dealing with people, and people can make mistakes, people can hurt

00:23:23.260 - 00:23:44.400

you. People are people. But there's, but. Do you mean later on, you mean just in your personal life? No, I mean in my personal life, uh, my political life. Uh, It's somewhat different than that of course I was rebellious. I was, uh, never a member of

00:23:44.400 - 00:24:01.439

the party. Uh, I was on the fringes of the party and in, in, uh, the Du Bois Club in San Francisco. I just saw a legislator up in Sacramento. He was walking through a restaurant and he was on the fringes of the Du Bois Club, and

00:24:01.439 - 00:24:18.989

I said, Hi, do you remember me? And he looked, he looked, he'd know he'd seen me, and I said. The divorce, that's a long time ago. He said, Oh, we gotta, gotta get together. He was just jolted, but anyway, um, I can't think of his name

00:24:18.989 - 00:24:40.949

right now. I will maybe before this thing is, is, yeah, um. Burton. Oh, John Burton, yeah, good guy. Um, what, uh, what were the, the, the different roles that your mother and father played politically, um, OK, the roles my mother, my mother, my mother played. I

00:24:40.949 - 00:25:07.550

would say it was strictly. A supportive role. Until she And Early later years or the early part of the later years rebelled against this. She took care of dad, she took care of the kids she proofread the stuff. Um, It was really a supportive role. I,

00:25:07.619 - 00:25:24.060

I don't know if she was a member of the party or not, but I'm quite sure she was highly active, even if she wasn't. So she was involved in. Various efforts but it was a supportive role, uh. And um she was hidden in his shadow. He

00:25:24.060 - 00:25:47.339

was quite grandiose. And uh he, he has tremendous energy and you know he was he was a genius, he was a genius. And um Dad danced. That's all I that's the only way I can put it. I mean he danced in life and he spun through

00:25:47.339 - 00:26:13.170

it, uh. And we were always there when he came home. Uh, There, I think there was a tremendous, not only was he brilliant, but there's a tremendous hunger for recognition. And That also translated into came through him to us but. At that point it translated into

00:26:13.170 - 00:26:30.430

the projects he was doing the World Peace Council, the um. He was beginning the book on the effects of the Cold War and the American children, that kind of stuff. Uh, that was after, after, pretty much after he'd even been blacklisted then at that point, but.

00:26:31.239 - 00:26:51.040

Um, he had many projects and he was active, highly active. I'm curious about what allowed you to be fearful for your presence of the FBI. I knew about the FBI and I knew about the Ku Klux Klan and I knew about the Rosenbergs and I knew

00:26:51.040 - 00:27:06.859

about those people who got shot and though I hadn't read I had not read Dos Passos or Hemingway or or Steinbeck. That was part of the fabric I lived so when I did read them way later in my life, uh. It was with a sense of

00:27:08.380 - 00:27:37.430

Real recognition You describe your father as larger than life. He was invincibility. Well, that did, but that that's not that did give him a certain sense of invincibility and power, but that's not why I wasn't scared. I wasn't scared because. It was all right to die

00:27:37.430 - 00:27:54.089

or all right to get hurt in the struggle. Yeah, that was, I mean. That was just a matter of fact that was breathing to me. And I really, that was, that was my religion. I'm looking back on it. I mean, but it wasn't because I didn't

00:27:54.489 - 00:28:07.329

hold it up every day thinking, oh, I might die and be a hero. It that was just part of what happened, I mean. There were kids who were held up, do you remember the movie Salt of the Earth? Well, the son of one of the heroes

00:28:07.329 - 00:28:23.380

in the salt of the Earth at that same age was throwing tear gas back in Silver City, Colorado at the police. That I mean that was the kind of. Examples we had. I was more afraid when I get in a fight on school grounds, and I

00:28:23.380 - 00:28:39.439

did have a lot of fights because of my father later on, but in regard to the FBI following me home or anything like that, uh, I was unafraid and Dad. Not then but later in life would chuckle and he said, you're a you're dangerous to no

00:28:39.439 - 00:29:00.839

one but yourself because for a long time I was unafraid during the um sit-ins I was involved in, totally unafraid. I should have been afraid or at least cautious, both Tim. But Tim is the same way but not politically, and Brian is cautious but very active,

00:29:01.040 - 00:29:17.469

and I don't mean he's cautious in a bad sense, but even now the caution strikes in me a note of the word caution strikes in me a sort of guilty note if you want me to be frank and. No, I was not afraid. I was not

00:29:17.469 - 00:29:35.599

afraid from the from the. From way young I can remember times I was afraid like during a storm and the wind and the the the branches lashing at a window that was one of the first times I was afraid that I was knowledgeable of it when

00:29:35.599 - 00:29:45.300

I was a little kid and then mom came up thunderstorm in the east. But I was not afraid like that. I was not afraid. Yes.