00:00:11.780 - 00:00:46.680

Uh, I'm Tom Nicolopoulos. Today is March 17, 1989. I, um was employed by the state conciliation Service from 1948 to 1976. I was very much interested in uh you're telling me about how you got started in the mediation work. You thought that some of it stemmed

00:00:46.680 - 00:01:11.450

from your father's having a boarding house in which laborers lived, and you heard a lot of conversations. I wondered if you would talk about that a bit. Yes, uh. First of all, um, my father's boarding house, um, was located in the, in South San Francisco, that's

00:01:11.450 - 00:01:38.310

the community south of, uh, San Francisco. It, um, was a, um, a small community when I was growing up, some 6000, but, uh, it really was the Smokestack community. There were all kinds of plants there steel mills, macaroni, factories, marble works, uh, paint companies, etc. so

00:01:38.310 - 00:02:02.720

this, uh, is the setting in which my father's, um, working man's boarding house, the so-called Oxford Hotel, no allusion to the university, but had we used to feel that, well, that was quite a prestigious name. Um, and, um, And um when I was a teenager and

00:02:02.720 - 00:02:29.830

also my younger brother Gus, several years younger than myself, um. Our father. You might say, uh, put us to serve an apprenticeship in the, uh, boarding house and not necessarily out of economic necessity because, uh, my father is a small entrepreneur, had a fairly successful, uh,

00:02:30.130 - 00:02:55.430

uh, steam laundry business, and I'm sure the cash flow would have been sufficient to find or to pay help, but, uh, being, uh. Of an immigrant, a Greek immigrant, they felt that work was good for people. It was, in other words, work. You know, build character,

00:02:55.560 - 00:03:18.350

etc. and, uh, as a matter of fact, uh, when we were turned over as, uh, so-called apprentices, I'm used to that term loosely, we were boys, uh, that's peel peel potatoes, uh, uh, swept the floors, waited on, on the borders, swamped floors, etc. and, um, this

00:03:18.640 - 00:03:46.330

so-called manager was, uh, Uncle John. And uh he used to remind us uh repeating the words of a uh Greek proverb with some scatological meaning of the uh rewards of industry and the penalties of sloth and in a sanitized English uh. Uh, version, uh, something along

00:03:46.330 - 00:04:10.120

the lines of, uh, he who gets up in the morning finds the shiny buck. He who sleeps in in the morning wallows in slimy muck. No, that's the English sanitized, uh, version. Um At the time when I and my brother Gus uh were serving our so-called

00:04:10.140 - 00:04:40.590

apprenticeship, uh, was about 1930 or maybe a little bit before and uh our um um apprenticeship uh lasted throughout the so-called Depression years and um Uh, my father at the Oxford Hotel, there were many, uh, Borders that came from many states of the union. Maine, Oklahoma,

00:04:41.030 - 00:05:06.530

Rhode Island, Mississippi, uh, etc. and in addition there were, uh, quite a few, uh, people from foreign countries, not only Greece, Belgium, Portugal, so actually, uh, among the, um. 0, 50 or 60 borders. Uh, this was quite a, uh, a mixed group of, uh, Native Americans

00:05:06.530 - 00:05:37.210

from various, uh, states of the Union and also, uh, uh, so-called foreigners from, uh, overseas who were English and Irish and German, um, and I mentioned, uh, Portuguese. Um And so, In serving, um, The As boys, uh, and I might, I might, uh, also say that,

00:05:37.620 - 00:05:57.900

uh, without a salary, no salary from our father, but, uh, at the same time, uh, we, uh, had a very uh good source of income because, um. Uh, from the, uh, uh, porters who were working at a job they'd always remember us on payday with 5050

00:05:57.900 - 00:06:20.200

cents or so and also we could, uh, get an odd, uh, uh, dime or a nickel for running up town to get some medicine or to get some blood sucking leeches for ones that got into brawls and had puffed eyes. So actually, uh, um, although we

00:06:20.200 - 00:06:43.660

did not receive an actual salary, uh, we, we did have a fairly good source of income uh from the borders. And um After dinner, the so-called lobby, which was a very, very small room, probably the size of, of this room, um, my, uh, my brother and

00:06:43.660 - 00:07:04.520

I would, uh, uh, listen to the tales of, uh, of the borders, and we'd hear about many, many things, uh, we'd hear and as many of them, uh, had been veterans of World War One. Uh, we used to hear about their exploits and incidentally, uh, there

00:07:04.520 - 00:07:22.500

were veterans from quite a few of the belligerent armies. Many were Ameri of course American veterans, but we had, uh, some that had served in the German army, uh, some in the Austro-Hungarian army, and some in the British Army, and, uh, on the war stories regardless

00:07:22.500 - 00:07:41.650

of. Uh, where they came from, we got the general notion that war was a terrible thing. I mean, it was not a glamorous, a glamorous experience, and this, you know, came from what, uh, the experiences of all these people in the various armies. Uh, then, uh,

00:07:41.820 - 00:08:01.100

of course, uh, we, uh, at one point we could, um, this was a time when, uh, there was a, um, a system of free transportation in this country. Riding the rods, I've been riding the freight cars and of course we would know exactly what the best

00:08:01.100 - 00:08:24.590

routes were and where the tank towns were and where the railroad bulls were the toughest and to to watch out for the uh police um so in a sense and of course we heard you know many things uh. Uh, dialogues and debates, uh, on, on questions

00:08:24.590 - 00:08:45.350

like, like, uh, whether or not alcohol ages, um, so we heard many, many things from, you know, these people, and of course, uh, some of them were, um, had a higher education and, and quite a few were, you know, were just common. You know, working class

00:08:45.350 - 00:09:11.180

people, so we had, uh, an exposure to quite a, quite a, a a range, and of course as we went on later in life we had to sift out some of the things that we had heard and naturally, um, so. Um From that, uh, exposure, uh,

00:09:11.480 - 00:09:29.340

I became interested, you might say in, in, in, in, in the working man and his problems and, uh, uh, you know what he did and where he came from and what kind of a life he was leading, etc. and there were some, although at that particular

00:09:29.340 - 00:09:52.980

time one of uh there uh. Uh, this was really a little bit before the, um, um, coming in of the, of the CIO and the, and the, um, uh, organization of, uh, uh, industrial unions, but, uh, there were people there that belonged to various craft unions,

00:09:53.300 - 00:10:15.110

and, uh, now, uh, uh, I'm pretty sure there were some that carried the red card. That probably belonged to the IWW and there were, there was a, uh, a sprinkling. Of, uh, uh, you might call, uh, radical agitators and of course there were also some more

00:10:15.110 - 00:10:40.950

conservative and so there, there would be, you know, quite a debate about the issues, issues of the day. Can you remember a particular, Uh, strike that was going on where there was quite a. Well, uh, uh, actually, um, uh, The first, uh, really big strike was,

00:10:41.050 - 00:11:03.280

uh, the waterfront strike and the general strike of 1934. I mean, did some of the people who lived there, uh, were they, um, waterfront people? Some of them, yes, some of them did, did work on the waterfront or in allied industries that were connected with, with

00:11:03.280 - 00:11:20.690

the waterfront. That's, uh, that's true. And uh of course uh that was uh quite a subject and I I get the feeling that uh the great majority of them were in favor of what was going on and uh there was a minority of course of the

00:11:20.690 - 00:11:39.050

more conservative views and uh some that would say that IWW stood for I won't work you know there was that element too but there was quite a mixture but I would say that the first uh really uh. Big strike and of course I heard things about

00:11:39.410 - 00:11:58.720

Uh, you know, the, the 1919, uh, the wave of strikes in that period, and some of the people had taken place in the steel strike, the railroad strike, etc. but you know they just talk, talk about that, but the first, uh, real strike, uh, that, uh.

00:11:59.750 - 00:12:22.550

Uh You might say I experienced or lived was the 34 general strike and the waterfront strike. Well, when the violence began to occur. Uh, how did you feel about it personally? Did you have, uh, Well, uh, I, uh, I've always, um, in my life, uh, have

00:12:22.550 - 00:12:45.760

been anti-violence, but, uh, uh, somehow I, I probably never thought about it or, or rationalized it, uh, but, uh, uh, I would say that I was, uh. I was uh sympathetic with the, uh, my sympathies lay with the people that were being beaten up. By by

00:12:45.760 - 00:13:10.150

the police, etc. were there any, did any of the, uh, labor leaders come to the Oxford Hotel? Uh, not, uh, not any, uh, that I recall any labor leaders, no, not, uh, not oh no, no, no, no, it was not in any, any formal way, but,

00:13:10.170 - 00:13:37.170

uh, but it certainly was a cauldron of. Of dialogue and activity. And uh Uh, of course, uh. Um, later when they, um, in 36 or so when 37, I believe. I, uh, well, as a result of, uh, Uh, being, um, Apprentice or a boy in a

00:13:37.170 - 00:13:56.470

working man's boarding house, I naturally became very much acquainted with everyone that was working wherever they were working. Where were most of the jobs here? They came from other parts of the country. Well, there were the packing houses. Uh, Swift, uh, originally it was called the

00:13:56.470 - 00:14:15.590

Western Meat Company. There was a, a big packing house, uh, of, uh, the Swift. There was a packing house of the Vernons. There was a Bethlehem Steel Company. There was a Western Pipe and Steel Company. There was an Enterprise Foundry. There's a Fuller Paint. I mean,

00:14:15.970 - 00:14:34.970

there just, there was a, a macaroni factory. It was quite a, although the, uh, the town was, uh, I suppose that if one were to, uh, count all the people that lived there, it would far exceed the, when they were working sometimes during the Depression. But,

00:14:34.990 - 00:14:52.010

but the, but there were so many factories there that even during the Depression it was always possible to for someone to find a day's work here or there, but it was a miserable thing. I mean, and of course there were some that had, you know, steady

00:14:52.010 - 00:15:13.420

jobs, but, uh, uh, at periods, certain periods there, uh, uh, most of them would just have to scrounge around and uh. Uh, for a day's work at the wool pullery or or or somewhere, um, how did they manage to pay their rent? What was the rent?

00:15:17.280 - 00:15:43.230

for room and board, um, and I must say, the, uh, rooms were quite monastic. They were heatless, but, um, the, uh, food was gargantuan. Good food and the rate was $7 a week. Oh, actually $7 a week, uh, uh, wasn't bad for, uh, oh yes, oh

00:15:43.230 - 00:16:01.020

yes, 3 meals a day, 7 days a week, and the food, and when I say it's a gargantuan, of course in those days food, good food was, uh, relatively cheap. And uh so as a matter of fact, later on when I went to uh a college

00:16:01.020 - 00:16:21.060

at uh in Berkeley, I really felt deprived leaving such Such a place where there was food on the table. Now who, who was in charge of the kitchen? Well, there was a procession of, uh, of cooks. Uh, we had many different cooks that came and went,

00:16:21.870 - 00:16:43.240

but, uh, your question, uh, um. About Uh, where did people get $7? A lot of them did not get $7 but through an accident, uh, I say of history, uh, my father, um, He was a small entrepreneur and he had uh uh one of the two

00:16:43.240 - 00:17:05.770

steam laundries in northern San Mateo County. So the steam actually even in the depression days. Washing had to be done. Hospitals, schools, you know, there was a wash to be done, so, uh, there were periods there where, uh, actually the cash flow from my father's, uh,

00:17:06.390 - 00:17:28.160

laundry, which enjoyed kind of a monopolistic, uh, position in the economy there. Actually sustained not only his own family with 6 children, his wife and himself, but also possibly 40 or 50 boarders who didn't, couldn't pay their, their rent because or, you know, uh paid as

00:17:28.160 - 00:17:50.360

much as they could. And uh my father was quite uh touched when uh uh years later during World War 2 or several uh uh 2 or 3 came back. To pay him what they owed him. And uh he was quite surprised that, that uh uh crumbs,

00:17:50.450 - 00:18:14.020

um, some crumbs came back from loaves he might have cast upon the waters but um Um Well, that's, you know, uh, and I'm not saying that. Oh yes, I mean, uh, well, I don't know if it's trust, uh, uh, you're probably familiar with, uh, some old,

00:18:14.150 - 00:18:35.550

you know, old folk, uh, immigrant ways of immigrants, etc. and, uh, I don't think anybody was ever tossed out for nonpayment, nonpayment of rent, so with a combination. Of, uh, as I say, it was very lucky, uh, and for that reason, uh, our family really did

00:18:35.550 - 00:18:56.180

not suffer any privation during the Depression. We never missed a meal, you know, and because of this, uh, situation through, uh, a pure accident that, uh, my father had this, uh. This this monopoly business and, and the money flowed in and of course, you know, he

00:18:56.180 - 00:19:17.960

was able to get, you know, credit and so on and so things uh just kept on rolling along. Well, it sounds a little bit more than accidented thought, you know, and, uh, uh, credit to his ability to, to see what was going on. Well, possibly so.

00:19:18.090 - 00:19:41.410

I mean, uh, but, uh, I think, um, probably his, his, uh, attitude, uh, was probably conditioned by the fact that he was born a posthumous orphan. In other words, his father had died after he was born. And uh he was orphaned at an early age and

00:19:41.630 - 00:20:10.830

raised by people and uh The Greek immigrants We were and actually Greek Americans today are sort of uh conservative in their, uh, general outlook on society. I mean they believe in individualism and so on but uh um I think uh because my father really never had

00:20:10.830 - 00:20:28.350

his own family in a sense it was a blessing because he was divested of uh all the uh. You know, families are good, good things, but they also can be very confining. And I think that uh I don't know if I'm correct or not, but I

00:20:28.350 - 00:20:52.510

think this might have been a factor of his general view towards society and you know at least that's that's my my belief and uh I've heard other. Uh Greek, uh, American kids, um, remark to my father, oh gee, your father was liberal in terms of, uh,

00:20:53.170 - 00:21:12.350

because, you know, uh, the, the Maoris and the Greek, uh, society were so, you know, community that you couldn't do this and they couldn't do that, etc. and I think it's so-called liberalism probably, uh, uh, related to the fact that he. You know, that he was

00:21:12.350 - 00:21:38.800

an orphan and came to this country and, and didn't have the, uh, the baggage, you might say, of, of family. So now, uh, you were going to high school in South San Francisco. That's correct, yes, that's right. And um actually when I think about it, uh,

00:21:39.910 - 00:22:06.220

I was simultaneously Um Living in two homes and living with two families. Well, my mother and father lived in a flat above the laundry. Which is only a few blocks away. And uh I would go there to get my shirts and so on. And uh that

00:22:06.220 - 00:22:28.040

was my Greek home, but then when I was living in the Oxford Hotel, that was my American home. And of course my Greek family was my blood family and uh the borders were my were also my family another family and uh this uh uh resulted in

00:22:28.040 - 00:22:50.030

the fact that uh my parents as most uh Greek immigrants didn't think uh very much about uh uh frivolous things like uh American sports I mean uh. Especially team sports, uh, I thought, you know, football and baseball and basketball were just sort of unnecessary things. Well,

00:22:50.200 - 00:23:11.940

uh, uh, my brother Gus, who was a better athlete than I was, uh, never felt badly that our fathers and mothers never came to. The games because the borders came, more borders. So we, we had 5 or 6 borders that faithful would come to the basketball

00:23:11.940 - 00:23:32.160

games and uh at the breakfast table in the morning, there'd be discussion about You know, what we did, etc. So, so, so actually, um, um, uh, I, I've uh Uh, when I think about it, really, I, uh, I, I simultaneously I had, uh, I was a

00:23:32.160 - 00:23:54.400

member of, uh, two families and I lived in two homes simultaneously. Well, I'm a support for your, you wanted to be an American too, and you got that from the borders and then the other was bringing in some of the, uh, customs. I don't know, uh,

00:23:54.680 - 00:24:15.250

uh, it, uh, Uh, I would put it this way, I, um, I wanted to be what I thought I was, which was me. I didn't, you know, I was living here and I didn't necessarily put a label American or Greek, you know, I never thought of

00:24:15.250 - 00:24:31.480

it in that sense, but I was aware of the fact that after all this was American, and I suppose, uh, uh, well you couldn't get away from that, but I never consciously, uh. Uh, thought about whether I was being Greek or American. I just thought I

00:24:31.480 - 00:24:51.780

was being me. The only thing is that you sense that some of the things you liked like sports were not wholeheartedly condoned. Yes, but then my other family, uh, condoned these things, you see, so that's all that that was OK. I guess so in that's in

00:24:51.780 - 00:25:14.160

that in that sense I was, yes, and um. I um The 1936, uh, I was at uh I think a freshman at University of California at Berkeley in the summer I, I had to, I felt I had to find a job to, you know, although my

00:25:14.160 - 00:25:38.040

father would give me $10 well in those days, um, I mean we were very lucky in the sense that uh the uh so-called tuition. It was only $26 a half year. In other words, for $52 a year. You could get into the university, that is if

00:25:38.040 - 00:25:59.270

you had low grades and so on. And uh actually even in those times it was fairly easy to rustle up even $52. I mean that's $1 a week, $1 and uh then um I um got into the. A cooperative boarding house. There was a cooperative boarding

00:25:59.270 - 00:26:19.740

house because at that time, the, there were no, there was no housing. There was only, I believe, one student housing for men outside of the fraternities and sororities, but I think Bowles Hall was the only, only, uh, um, uh, place, uh, you know, uh, That housed

00:26:19.740 - 00:26:44.350

and and the rest of the students lived in boarding houses and I think in those days they charged about $25 or $30 a month for room and board, but at the co op houses you could get board and room for $17.50. A month. So Um, but

00:26:44.350 - 00:27:01.950

still I felt, you know, that, uh, I should, uh, uh, make some money and of course, uh, my being acquainted with all these workers already paid off, you know, they always could put a good word, a nice lad here, deserving lad going to the university, and

00:27:02.290 - 00:27:21.370

so, uh, uh, someone at the, uh, Oxford Hotel who was, uh, in the position of a foreman passed the word along to. The Western Pipe and Steel Company, which at that time was a, a steel fabrication plant making pipes and tanks and so on and so

00:27:21.370 - 00:27:40.670

I uh uh I uh I got a job there. And you know, earned, earn, earned money during the summer and actually the summer of '36 was not, uh, for some reason was not a bad uh year. I mean, there was plenty of work coming in. I

00:27:40.670 - 00:28:05.520

think the plant was making uh pipes for the Hetch Hetchy water system, 6 6 ft in diameter pipes, you know, all water, so. So actually then I, you know, became involved with uh actually uh the life of the working man in the plant, not only hearing

00:28:05.520 - 00:28:28.040

about, about it, but actually experiencing, you know, what the uh worker went through and although um I had a job in those days, uh, even then, you were lucky enough to get the employment office to give you a badge. Western Pipe and Steel Company now that

00:28:28.060 - 00:28:48.580

that didn't necessarily mean that you had work. You had a badge which entitled you to come in in the morning and wait in a shape-up line to see. To see whether or not the foreman had worked for anybody and the foreman, you know, would, would select

00:28:48.580 - 00:29:07.690

so and so and so to come in and, uh, you, uh, your, your time began when you punched in, which might have been 9:30 or 10 o'clock, 10 o'clock, but, uh. Uh, it, uh, it was a good thing to have a badge because then at least

00:29:07.690 - 00:29:20.560

you had the opportunity of being in the shape up. I mean, if you didn't have a badge, in other words, they already had your record and the badge, and if there was work for you and if you were selected by the foreman, well, you went in

00:29:20.810 - 00:29:38.320

and of course, uh, if, uh, on, uh, there were, there were different kind of foreman and, uh, and a lot of them were, were, I must say sympathetic to. Someone going to college and they would uh sort of uh make work for you but there were

00:29:38.320 - 00:29:57.830

others who would tell you to punch out at 2:30 when the work was finished in the plan so there was a uh a variety of, of uh of foremen that uh were sympathetic not only to college students but to workers, uh, so, uh, then I discovered

00:29:57.830 - 00:30:20.090

um uh because of my um. High school, uh, school of Spanish, I became very friendly with a, a bunch of, uh, uh, Spanish speaking, mostly Mexicans, and, uh, I was surprised. I always thought Mexicans here see the stereotype you have Mexicans who worked on a section

00:30:20.090 - 00:30:41.720

gangs in the railroad on, you know, on the tracks. Well, here were Mexicans who were contrary to the stereotype who were actually German boilermakers. A journeyman who had worked on the uh Mexican railroads and the railroads in in Texas. So anyhow that uh I began to

00:30:41.720 - 00:31:04.280

uh uh uh notice that you know there was or even before there was a previous uh situation where I was quite uh uh thrown aback by uh uh a Jewish man named Kaplan who was a foundry worker. Now the only Jews I knew was Mr. Barkoff

00:31:04.280 - 00:31:22.990

and Mr. Price who ran the furniture store, and I never thought that a, uh, a Jew would be an actual factory worker. I just cite that to cite the, you know, the stereotypes that we, well, anyhow, uh, certainly, uh, when I, uh, became friendly with these,

00:31:23.060 - 00:31:41.520

uh, journeymen, and they were real journeymen. And of course in a sense I suppose I was the Uh, they're, um, I don't know if they looked upon me as, uh, the, the Anglo leader, you might say, you know.